• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:28
CEST 19:28
KST 02:28
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru0BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack0Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation StarCraft 1 & 2 Added to Xbox Game Pass
Tourneys
Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 40790 users

Balance patching with sc2 map maker as a community

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Normal
norlock
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands918 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-11 17:37:04
April 11 2020 17:28 GMT
#1
I just start by a disclaimer that this is not meant as a whine thread, in response to the current results of HSC, but as a serious effort as a community in balancing this game. Is it relatively easy to make a balance patch with sc2 map maker? Are people into supporting this effort if we just make slight changes? I feel Blizzard is not really going to invest in balancing sc2 anymore, as this game is getting pretty old and is not providing much revenue anymore.

What are your thoughts on this idea, I hope people can look at this as an serious effort to improve the game, and we can find some good ways to bring sc2 forward. This will also be a better response than to complain about the state of the game.
Are you human?
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-11 17:51:52
April 11 2020 17:38 GMT
#2
All you have to do playing Terran is to spend about 1050 minerals to protect your B4 while Zerg pays 350 minerals :

Details :

1 CC = 400 M
1 Orbital (or one barrack in wall) = 150 M
4 depot = 400 M (make wall in an open space)
4 SCV working = 100 M
etc...

Then there s no real surprise to understand why Terrans are so late entering end game.

PS : as you can approximatively have 40 vcs harvesting minerals, you can estimate the amount of mineral / minute (40*42 = 1680).. so a zerg can win about 30 seconds of free income at this moment.
norlock
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands918 Posts
April 11 2020 17:44 GMT
#3
I don't want to get into details what makes the game (un)balanced at the moment, but more if we as a community are willing to support this effort. This is one of those things that can work if enough people support it. But we can definitely look at how the eco works in the game.
Are you human?
StarscreamG1
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal1653 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-11 17:56:14
April 11 2020 17:53 GMT
#4
For god sake, SC2 problem is not a balance issue, it's a design one.
We need to deal with it for now.
Bring on SC3, with different pathing and positional play :-)
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-11 18:02:42
April 11 2020 18:01 GMT
#5
On April 12 2020 02:53 StarscreamG1 wrote:
For god sake, SC2 problem is not a balance issue, it's a design one.
We need to deal with it for now.
Bring on SC3, with different pathing and positional play :-)


positional play ?

How can be translated as Terran (with modern engine as SC2, means not BW) Hum we already talked about it, you re human, not a machine which can watch continusly on multiples positions...
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-11 18:06:08
April 11 2020 18:01 GMT
#6
Using the starcraft editor to create a mod with balance changes is generally speaking pretty easy (for most balance tweaks that you'd be making).

Getting anyone (especially anyone remotely good) to actually play your mod is basically impossible.
norlock
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands918 Posts
April 11 2020 18:06 GMT
#7
On April 12 2020 02:53 StarscreamG1 wrote:
For god sake, SC2 problem is not a balance issue, it's a design one.
We need to deal with it for now.
Bring on SC3, with different pathing and positional play :-)

But we know that they are not busy with sc3, at least no news about starcraft 3. What is the point of waiting for that and there are definitely changes we can makes to improve the game.
Are you human?
norlock
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands918 Posts
April 11 2020 18:09 GMT
#8
On April 12 2020 03:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Using the starcraft editor to create a mod with balance changes is generally speaking pretty easy (for most balance tweaks that you'd be making).

Getting anyone (especially anyone remotely good) to actually play your mod is basically impossible.

Thanks for the reply, I also thought this would be the case. I hope we can find a way to get most people into this idea, it needs to be supported by a lot of people for it to work.
Are you human?
Snakestyle11
Profile Joined December 2018
191 Posts
April 11 2020 18:12 GMT
#9
Unit interacting and the way build orders from diff races line up against one another is the biggest issue with sc2. Balancing with maps wont change the super anti climatic instant game ending hard counter moments and boring 1 sided unit interactions.
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-11 18:14:00
April 11 2020 18:13 GMT
#10
If somebody desires to improve the game, even if he achieves,....i m really not sure to see people thanks him.
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-11 18:26:46
April 11 2020 18:16 GMT
#11
In fact the only problem is the ladder, who will play if you can t be ranked ?

PS : You can also ask to blizzard to integrate a new type ladder "with fast game in default speed" (melt with the fastest) and in this mod all you have to do is increase time construction building and upgrade research time by 15%.
By this way, you keep the tree and give more chance to race which requires more effective APM.

It can be done in a day..
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
April 11 2020 18:25 GMT
#12
On April 12 2020 03:09 norlock wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2020 03:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Using the starcraft editor to create a mod with balance changes is generally speaking pretty easy (for most balance tweaks that you'd be making).

Getting anyone (especially anyone remotely good) to actually play your mod is basically impossible.

Thanks for the reply, I also thought this would be the case. I hope we can find a way to get most people into this idea, it needs to be supported by a lot of people for it to work.


I'm highly skeptical it would work. Even when Blizzard put up their balance changes on that separate matchmaking queue no one was playing it. When new maps come out of the TLMC, the finalists have roughly a 50% chance of ending up on ladder eventually, and despite that good players won't play them and give feedback.

And community driven balance changes are a good deal more speculative than both of these examples. So yeah you do need to gather a lot of dedicated people willing to test out these changes if you want to get anything out of it.
norlock
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands918 Posts
April 11 2020 18:27 GMT
#13
On April 12 2020 03:16 Vision_ wrote:
In fact the only problem is the ladder, who will play if you can t be ranked ?

That's a good point, I just hope there is something possible. I agree that I can only see this work if we can find some cooperation with Blizzard.
Are you human?
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-11 18:44:41
April 11 2020 18:44 GMT
#14
On April 12 2020 03:27 norlock wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2020 03:16 Vision_ wrote:
In fact the only problem is the ladder, who will play if you can t be ranked ?

That's a good point, I just hope there is something possible. I agree that I can only see this work if we can find some cooperation with Blizzard.


If you can't get enough people to play custom games on your balance mod, you're not going to get enough people to make automated matchmaking work and even need Blizzard involvement.
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-11 20:27:46
April 11 2020 20:03 GMT
#15
Actually it s frustating because there re 2 awesome tools to get another batch of SC2, i mean "test mode" and "unit tester".

Involve to a SC2 batch for community should be casual oriented, i.e everythings in SC2 can be less done for nags and less punishing.
Step by step, you have to reduce the area of impact of each units, you have to decrease personality/features of these units which are clearly overlaping too far with others (little bit too much emphasis in their roles)
Most of units are well designed but i m not interesting anymore to the current paths to evolve.

Basically, to get closer of casual gamers, i would wish :

EMP is way to punishing : there s no escape for protoss because it s an instant.
Medivacs couldn t upload every marines in one shot (instant also)
Terran Casual builds too many Planetary Forteress because it s so much safer and they have problem to sustain a position while their army is moving....

Banelings are too much expensive and useful for their supply cost (best cost efficient unit).
Ultralisks are too strong against Casual Bio Player (If they are not scouted also)
Mutalisks seems to struggle against everything (too squishy ?)
Creep tumors have the same price than an injection - zerg player could be more versatile and must choose at start between a fast speed expansion or many more units - tumors spell should cost lesser than injection proportionally. (without talking about creep tumors and vision...)

Not very aware of Protoss forces and weakness,
Disruptors feels poorly designed
Mothership core doesn t seem well designed as well.
Stalker strenght doesn t seems to scale until end game.
Banelings could pick the "charge ability" while zealots could have an armor to replenish their plasma shield (they would have a shorter charge effect by defaut after an hit)
WaesumNinja
Profile Joined February 2012
210 Posts
April 11 2020 20:29 GMT
#16
The last big community balancing initiative I can remember was starbow, does anyone know if it's still being worked on/played? Last post in the thread was from 2017:

https://tl.net/forum/sc2-maps/304955-starbow

The hardest part is getting the community to play it, since everyone and their dog has their own idea how to "fix" things.
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-11 21:23:04
April 11 2020 21:16 GMT
#17
On April 12 2020 05:29 WaesumNinja wrote:
The last big community balancing initiative I can remember was starbow, does anyone know if it's still being worked on/played? Last post in the thread was from 2017:

https://tl.net/forum/sc2-maps/304955-starbow

The hardest part is getting the community to play it, since everyone and their dog has their own idea how to "fix" things.


SC BW remastered have attracted many players of starbow. Despite their huge work i m blaming starbow to copy perfectly / be too close from the original game. They could have mix the macro from SC BW and good idea of SC2 (medivacs, ravagers, colossus, etc..)

Indeed, If starbow doesn t reach to be playable in ladder, there s no reason for community to think about SC2 anymore.
norlock
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands918 Posts
April 11 2020 21:26 GMT
#18
On April 12 2020 05:29 WaesumNinja wrote:
The last big community balancing initiative I can remember was starbow, does anyone know if it's still being worked on/played? Last post in the thread was from 2017:

https://tl.net/forum/sc2-maps/304955-starbow

The hardest part is getting the community to play it, since everyone and their dog has their own idea how to "fix" things.

Well I think it was created at a time there was still a lot of balance patches going on, so players didn't feel the need to jump over, another problem with Starbow was that it was a complete new game, so I can also see why that wasn't really appealing.

What I believe in more is making units 10 minerals + 10 guess cheaper or more expensive, reducing the range of units, slower build times or macro mechanics.
Are you human?
Morbidius
Profile Joined November 2010
Brazil3449 Posts
April 12 2020 03:42 GMT
#19
We should host a Teamliquid balance patch contest every 6 months and the best patch gets into the game. Can't be worse than Blizzard.
Has foreign StarCraft hit rock bottom?
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
April 13 2020 10:30 GMT
#20
On April 12 2020 12:42 Morbidius wrote:
We should host a Teamliquid balance patch contest every 6 months and the best patch gets into the game. Can't be worse than Blizzard.


Unless you want to change adepts with MOBA-like ability...
temporary1
Profile Joined February 2015
69 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-13 12:32:44
April 13 2020 12:06 GMT
#21
Problem with community patching is that what Blizzard has been doing already seems like balance patching. Protoss being heavily nerfed after almost winning a tournament vs. Maru winning 4 GSL:s in a row, zerg situation etc. Who in here believes there wouldn't have been huge cry for protoss if anyone had won even 2 in a row with P?

To me it seems clear that so called community cries for protoss in every situation, even now when there has been only few premier wins with it since 2017. Protoss has least amout of players in higher leagues, so there isn't that many people defending. Also the mentality has been against protoss pretty much from the get go.
InfCereal
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada1759 Posts
April 13 2020 13:17 GMT
#22
On April 12 2020 03:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Using the starcraft editor to create a mod with balance changes is generally speaking pretty easy (for most balance tweaks that you'd be making).

Getting anyone (especially anyone remotely good) to actually play your mod is basically impossible.


I think you could get traction by going back to the broodlord infestor era, and balancing from there. You could leverage the nostalgia, put up a decent prize pool and iterate over a few tournaments.

No idea what you'd do with all the new units though
Cereal
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-13 14:50:32
April 13 2020 14:27 GMT
#23
On April 13 2020 22:17 InfCereal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2020 03:01 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Using the starcraft editor to create a mod with balance changes is generally speaking pretty easy (for most balance tweaks that you'd be making).

Getting anyone (especially anyone remotely good) to actually play your mod is basically impossible.


I think you could get traction by going back to the broodlord infestor era, and balancing from there. You could leverage the nostalgia, put up a decent prize pool and iterate over a few tournaments.

No idea what you'd do with all the new units though


I agree on the process. LoTV isn t a failure and there are some good ideas, i would like also to return to a batch of HoTS.
But, first someone has to resume the patch changes (and the main explication of each changes). Community need discord so.

My opinion about new units (without too much details, i was Terran)

Adept : Design = good, utility = feel weak in end game
Disruptor : Design = bad, utility = too much dedicated to make damage

Ravager : Design = good, utility = good
Lurker : Design = good, utility = good

Cyclone : Design = ??, utility = mixed (Terran will kite forever ?? seems to overlap a bit with Thor role but coming sooner)
Liberator : Design = good, utility = good

PS : Thor has herited of some kind of rapid fire as Goliath (last change confirmed the direction of tests - progressive burst), then cyclone should get an another role...




BlackLilium
Profile Joined April 2011
Poland426 Posts
April 13 2020 19:38 GMT
#24
I think it is not about ideas or even implementing them. I tried that a while ago - but it didn't work. I don't know if the changes were good or bad, it is that people quickly lost interest and focused on different projects.
What I observed was that either:
- changes were big and made the game broken. More broken than now!
- or changes were small and most people didn't even notice the difference.

At this point I believe what we need is:
- someone charismatic to make good publicity. Shake things up. Make people want to play whatever mod we come up with
- Change a lot. Literally make a new game within the SC2 engine. Because small changes are either inconsequential below master's level of play, or too broken. So - we need something new, so that it could capture attention on all levels of play.

But then - it is no longer just balancing. It becomes something much bigger, and I don't think it is what you intended...
[MOD]Economy - Hot Mineral Harvesting
washikie
Profile Joined February 2011
United States752 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-13 20:03:24
April 13 2020 19:58 GMT
#25
Honestly I don’t think TvZ ballance is in that bad a place right now. It’s significantly better than last patch. I would also say I think at lower levels of play like masters and below the mu is Terran favored. Both mech and bio are viable at this level of play and quite strong.

I do think the one thing that would need a fix is that at pro level it seems like mech has been boxed out again, I think some of this is due to zergs perfecting roach allins and nydus swarmhost as counterplay to BC opening which essentially axed it, you used to see BC open evrey game but now at the pro level it’s dead and new mech was built on the back of bcs since they let Terran apply pressure and keep pace with zerg effectively. I would like to see a slight nerf to ravager Allin, maybe a buff to banshee build time to help fend it off as a response more effectively. Maybe an adjustment to swarmhost something to get pros interested in mech as at least an option in a bo7 series.


Tvp and PvP on the other hand are both in a fairly awful state I would definitely hope the balance team looks at those mus. Maybe not statistically but definitely not in a fun or well balanced state, t seems to be back to the 2 base Allin because balance is not good meta, and PvP well, it just sucks
"when life gives Hero lemons he makes carriers" -Artosis
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3343 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-13 20:04:42
April 13 2020 20:02 GMT
#26
Making your balance map would add to the credibility of what ideas you have in mind. I don't think people would actually go in and try your changes tho. But flirting with ideas and if people actually like them, it can make ppl talk and then maybe one day there could be a Blizzard patch with one of your ideas in it.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
ThunderJunk
Profile Joined December 2015
United States673 Posts
April 13 2020 21:21 GMT
#27
On April 12 2020 05:29 WaesumNinja wrote:
The last big community balancing initiative I can remember was starbow, does anyone know if it's still being worked on/played? Last post in the thread was from 2017:

https://tl.net/forum/sc2-maps/304955-starbow

The hardest part is getting the community to play it, since everyone and their dog has their own idea how to "fix" things.


It's hard to get people to play it because SC2 custom maps appear in the queue based on what Blizzard wants there ("popularity") and not what people are actually hosting.

In other words, you can host an unpopular game and sit in lobby for hours and no one will see the game appear on the list - meanwhile, other games/maps appear on the list despite the fact that no one is hosting them. That's been an unsolved problem since day 1, and it's entirely stifled creative development through the Sc2 engine.
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
ginsstaahh
Profile Joined April 2020
1 Post
April 14 2020 03:20 GMT
#28
I like your idea of having the community make the changes instead of Blizzard. Really like the idea of having mod competitions! The community makes their own maps to start so why not balance patches?

I hear what people are saying that people won't play the mods. What I think could really help is if we get people with a big audience like Lowko to play and demonstrate a community-made mod that greatly improves mechanics as well as makes the game more fun! Let's be honest, the game has been getting quite stale. To make people want to support a mod it first has to be fun with new or revamped units/abilities before it gets balanced. It allows people to start to accept certain ideas of changing the game without breaking balance in ladder, giving the game as a whole a fresher direction than the way it's been going recently.

I've actually been working on my own mod for personal interest but would be willing to share it with others if they'd be interested. Maybe we can work on it together! Personally, I'm tired of playing sc2 but love the game as a whole. There's not a lot of games with depth to their races like sc. However, I don't like the state of the game currently. I think there are a lot of ways which it can be improved if Blizzard is willing to put the time, money, and effort into it.
omop
Profile Joined April 2017
42 Posts
April 14 2020 04:23 GMT
#29
On April 14 2020 06:21 ThunderJunk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2020 05:29 WaesumNinja wrote:
The last big community balancing initiative I can remember was starbow, does anyone know if it's still being worked on/played? Last post in the thread was from 2017:

https://tl.net/forum/sc2-maps/304955-starbow

The hardest part is getting the community to play it, since everyone and their dog has their own idea how to "fix" things.


It's hard to get people to play it because SC2 custom maps appear in the queue based on what Blizzard wants there ("popularity") and not what people are actually hosting.

In other words, you can host an unpopular game and sit in lobby for hours and no one will see the game appear on the list - meanwhile, other games/maps appear on the list despite the fact that no one is hosting them. That's been an unsolved problem since day 1, and it's entirely stifled creative development through the Sc2 engine.


Actually that problem have been solved years ago. You can see open lobbies in arcade.
ThunderJunk
Profile Joined December 2015
United States673 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-14 04:29:43
April 14 2020 04:29 GMT
#30
On April 14 2020 13:23 omop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2020 06:21 ThunderJunk wrote:
On April 12 2020 05:29 WaesumNinja wrote:
The last big community balancing initiative I can remember was starbow, does anyone know if it's still being worked on/played? Last post in the thread was from 2017:

https://tl.net/forum/sc2-maps/304955-starbow

The hardest part is getting the community to play it, since everyone and their dog has their own idea how to "fix" things.


It's hard to get people to play it because SC2 custom maps appear in the queue based on what Blizzard wants there ("popularity") and not what people are actually hosting.

In other words, you can host an unpopular game and sit in lobby for hours and no one will see the game appear on the list - meanwhile, other games/maps appear on the list despite the fact that no one is hosting them. That's been an unsolved problem since day 1, and it's entirely stifled creative development through the Sc2 engine.


Actually that problem have been solved years ago. You can see open lobbies in arcade.


Oh, really! Noice!

Yeah then make the map!
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-14 07:22:03
April 14 2020 07:21 GMT
#31
First, why asking for other people to do it for you instead of doing it on your own ?

Second, the "community" means nothing... Who will decide that their change should be implemented, and some not ?

You're free to propose the changes you want, make a mod to allow them to be played, and if it's good people will play it, if not, people won't. It's democratic.

The reality is just people just use balance as a way to whine/an excuse for their poor ladder performance, and are heavily biased toward their race, and their propositions are just "buff my race /nerf the others to help me to climb ladder faster".
But when he creates his own patch, he can't find a lot of people from the other races that want to play his mod, because his mod is not good ! That's all.

So, yeah we don't have community based patches in the game, not because it's hard to do, just because they're worst than the one from the balance team.
I wasbanned fromthis
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
113 Posts
April 14 2020 08:18 GMT
#32
A decade of people saying fix this or that, with reasonable breakdowns or not...

The problem isn't the game, it's the subjective reality players consume themselves with.
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3598 Posts
April 14 2020 09:46 GMT
#33
On April 14 2020 17:18 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
A decade of people saying fix this or that, with reasonable breakdowns or not...

The problem isn't the game, it's the subjective reality players consume themselves with.

True. It's easy to make suggestions, just look at Beastyqt's extensive list. He basically wants a complete redesign of the game, which is a fun idea, but will never happen. (There's also quite some terran bias in his proposals, but that's normal. You always think that your own race has a disadvantage.)

SC2 has some fundamental design flaws, which will never get adressed. Some examples:
1. Warp in. Makes PvP random as shit, leads to very ugly power spikes. Protoss production becomes a clusterfuck once there are some robos and stargates in play. We take it for granted, but actually, it's kind of convoluted. The ability to easily hide tech / production on the map also makes PvP somewhat unbearable. I highly respect every protoss pro, who's good at this matchup. It's 4D chess with a blindfold.

2. Creep. It has been slightly nerfed, but it's still by far the most powerful utility in the game. Zerg needs more vision than the other 2 races, but right now, it's brutally hard for T and P (esp. for bio T) to engage on creep.

3. Deathballs. Players have become really good at splitting and setting up engagements to counter SC2's blob mechanics. Battles still are very fast paced, sometimes split second decisions can turn a whole game upside down. That's very unforgiving, especially in comparison to BW, where engagements were more spread out and slower overall. (They were also an infinite amount harder to control.)

I could go on, but I think you get the point. There definitely are some imbalances in SC2, but I think some of them are deeply rooted in fundamental game mechanics, which will not be changed by Blizzard. There will be balance patches for the foreseeable future, but I don't expect them to go for a complete shakeup, as the SC2 team simply isn't that big anymore.
first we make expand, then we defense it.
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3343 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-14 10:52:37
April 14 2020 10:36 GMT
#34
On April 14 2020 18:46 virpi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2020 17:18 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
A decade of people saying fix this or that, with reasonable breakdowns or not...

The problem isn't the game, it's the subjective reality players consume themselves with.

True. It's easy to make suggestions, just look at Beastyqt's extensive list. He basically wants a complete redesign of the game, which is a fun idea, but will never happen. (There's also quite some terran bias in his proposals, but that's normal. You always think that your own race has a disadvantage.)

SC2 has some fundamental design flaws, which will never get adressed. Some examples:
1. Warp in. Makes PvP random as shit, leads to very ugly power spikes. Protoss production becomes a clusterfuck once there are some robos and stargates in play. We take it for granted, but actually, it's kind of convoluted. The ability to easily hide tech / production on the map also makes PvP somewhat unbearable. I highly respect every protoss pro, who's good at this matchup. It's 4D chess with a blindfold.

2. Creep. It has been slightly nerfed, but it's still by far the most powerful utility in the game. Zerg needs more vision than the other 2 races, but right now, it's brutally hard for T and P (esp. for bio T) to engage on creep.

3. Deathballs. Players have become really good at splitting and setting up engagements to counter SC2's blob mechanics. Battles still are very fast paced, sometimes split second decisions can turn a whole game upside down. That's very unforgiving, especially in comparison to BW, where engagements were more spread out and slower overall. (They were also an infinite amount harder to control.)

I could go on, but I think you get the point. There definitely are some imbalances in SC2, but I think some of them are deeply rooted in fundamental game mechanics, which will not be changed by Blizzard. There will be balance patches for the foreseeable future, but I don't expect them to go for a complete shakeup, as the SC2 team simply isn't that big anymore.

1: Why does the Warp in mechanic only ruin PvP?. I would say it's because Protoss defenders advantage is weaker, but I actually think a bigger problem in that matchup is the OP Prism. If you don't have Prism your units don't have Blink and units with Blink is often way stronger than a couple of Shield Batteries.
2. Creep can be changed in all sorts of ways. If you want vision to stay, you can still nerf the speed or just how much Creep is possible to spread. You could make Nuke insta-remove Creep etc.
3. I think this is two things. 1) Balling your units is less interesting. 2) Damage or AoE is too high. I personally think LotV has fixed most of this. Protoss use units that are much bigger which in itself makes the battle larger (Archons/Immortals.) A bunch of AoE options as well as positional units has been added so doing a binary attack which wins or loses the game has been severely nerfed. More often than not we see 2 armies instead of 1 which is really cool. I do think late game AoE is still not sufficient to ward the enemy away and eco at 3 base + makes it so that your opponent can only progress so much, which means the game at this late stage becomes more stale. This is why I think upping the supply limit or removing late game Mineral Patches would make the late game more interesting.

Edit: With damage being too high, I think the solution is funnily enough to increase AoE damage and keeping zoning units useful that way when you win an engagement, you don't kill all the units, because units like the Siege Tank stops you from advancing further. Terran has the biggest damage dealers, but TvT is fixed by Tanks, Liberators, Mines, Planetaries and in the earlier days Seeker Missiles.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-14 11:59:39
April 14 2020 11:11 GMT
#35
On April 14 2020 18:46 virpi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2020 17:18 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
A decade of people saying fix this or that, with reasonable breakdowns or not...

The problem isn't the game, it's the subjective reality players consume themselves with.

True. It's easy to make suggestions, just look at Beastyqt's extensive list. He basically wants a complete redesign of the game, which is a fun idea, but will never happen. (There's also quite some terran bias in his proposals, but that's normal. You always think that your own race has a disadvantage.)

SC2 has some fundamental design flaws, which will never get adressed. Some examples:
1. Warp in. Makes PvP random as shit, leads to very ugly power spikes. Protoss production becomes a clusterfuck once there are some robos and stargates in play. We take it for granted, but actually, it's kind of convoluted. The ability to easily hide tech / production on the map also makes PvP somewhat unbearable. I highly respect every protoss pro, who's good at this matchup. It's 4D chess with a blindfold.

2. Creep. It has been slightly nerfed, but it's still by far the most powerful utility in the game. Zerg needs more vision than the other 2 races, but right now, it's brutally hard for T and P (esp. for bio T) to engage on creep.

3. Deathballs. Players have become really good at splitting and setting up engagements to counter SC2's blob mechanics. Battles still are very fast paced, sometimes split second decisions can turn a whole game upside down. That's very unforgiving, especially in comparison to BW, where engagements were more spread out and slower overall. (They were also an infinite amount harder to control.)

I could go on, but I think you get the point. There definitely are some imbalances in SC2, but I think some of them are deeply rooted in fundamental game mechanics, which will not be changed by Blizzard. There will be balance patches for the foreseeable future, but I don't expect them to go for a complete shakeup, as the SC2 team simply isn't that big anymore.


I can answer to the problem, it s recurrent. Generally, players are frustated because opponent won without take any significant risks. Creep is the best example for that, but also banelings which is poorly designed : indeed, it s more simple to make units as banelings with a progressive loss of damage relatively to the point of impact than (actually) a single damage value in the whole circle area (i.e if player split well, his chance to avoid insane damage is decreased).

I didn t think to the warp prism problem, but now we have some feed-backs regarding "teleport problem" especially with BC. Problem of toss comes from another dimensions, it s about as you say "cluster****"... But in terms of gameplay, it s the same problem :
Let s take a TvP example (it worked also in PvP), Terran pushed along the game but didn t reach to make the difference and Toss finally has increased his strenght of his deathball (archon, colossus, immortal...). Despite of that, Terran could have handle the Toss counter-attack with a good micro with mines. Now if you add the opportunity to Toss to "" warp-in Terran main base multiples times without any take of risks "", the terran will be frustated (and tired) to lose because he can t watch closely at the same time on his deathball / army and his own base.

That being said, problem comes from another dimension : amount of units. Then, there is no other choice to consider an additional minerals costs to the warped units regarding the distance with the nearest base ( +X per 20 titles for example...). By the way, Toss can always make some warp-in but with more difficulty to iterate his harassement (then you can adjust the balance in increasing duration of warp-prism passing in phase mode : 2 to 3 seconds)

I don t have any example in PvP but I am confident that i can find a close example.

PS : like BC unit is already created, you can add additional time depending of distance when the unit is teleporting.
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3598 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-14 11:41:27
April 14 2020 11:40 GMT
#36
It's a can of worms. I just deleted a huge blurb of nonsense. I'm fine with the overall state of the game right now. There are glaring issues, but I have no clue on how to fix them. I've got ideas, but every time I start thinking about one, I realize that there are tons of other factors to be considered. And I'm by no means good enough at the game to actually say something useful about balance. (peaked at 5k, 4,5k rn)
Protoss really looks kind of lost vs. zerg right now. The problem is that you can't simply just buff some protoss mid game stuff without destroying PvT. Nerfing banes (at least reverting that strange HP buff) might be a good start.

Lots of balance suggestions are highly situational.
first we make expand, then we defense it.
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-14 12:12:48
April 14 2020 12:08 GMT
#37
On April 14 2020 20:40 virpi wrote:
It's a can of worms. I just deleted a huge blurb of nonsense. I'm fine with the overall state of the game right now. There are glaring issues, but I have no clue on how to fix them. I've got ideas, but every time I start thinking about one, I realize that there are tons of other factors to be considered. And I'm by no means good enough at the game to actually say something useful about balance. (peaked at 5k, 4,5k rn)
Protoss really looks kind of lost vs. zerg right now. The problem is that you can't simply just buff some protoss mid game stuff without destroying PvT. Nerfing banes (at least reverting that strange HP buff) might be a good start.

Lots of balance suggestions are highly situational.


Banelings balance is also about key attributes (defence, speed, cost, sight,..), a little bit unique cause it s directly linked to his supply cost which is really small (0.5) and his highly cost effiency.
I think banelings is more question of a designed problem than an attributes changes:
They would need more micro management : idea of a "charge ability" (zealots keep a small charge after hit and get a new ability as replenish plasma shield) or something else. Their damage need also to be progressive.
Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-04-14 16:00:13
April 14 2020 15:55 GMT
#38
On April 14 2020 18:46 virpi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 14 2020 17:18 I wasbanned fromthis wrote:
A decade of people saying fix this or that, with reasonable breakdowns or not...

The problem isn't the game, it's the subjective reality players consume themselves with.

2. Creep. It has been slightly nerfed, but it's still by far the most powerful utility in the game. Zerg needs more vision than the other 2 races, but right now, it's brutally hard for T and P (esp. for bio T) to engage on creep.


Well it's kind of clear, you never played Zerg. You act like the creep is spreading alone.

Switch to Zerg, you'll notice your creep spread will be way worst than the one from competent Zerg player. Do that while you're constantly injecting, dealing with multiple harass, fighting, teching, and replace it when creep is denied is not an easy task.

But you prefer to deny to the player the skill he has to spread and treat that as "it's imbalance".

Also you act like creep is a fatality, while it's not. Overlord vision can be denied by air units (phoenix/vikings), creep by actively killing creep (observer, scan, raven + units). Vision of the map is an active battle. If you don't do anything to win it and prefer whine "creep OP" on forum, it's sure you'll lose the battle.

It's double standard when the Zerg isn't credited for his good creep spread, and the T/P can't be blamed for not doing anything to deny creep...

Also, about the speed boost on creep, you don't mention that if Zerg is favored on creep, he is disadvantaged offcreep.

And yes, without creep, zerglings/banelings are crushed vs bio, and that's why Zerg is defensive vs Terran, it's less true vs Protoss, but on the other, creep is worst vs Protoss.

So it's like as Terran you start with the whole map giving you an advantage in fight, as if Zerg has started with the whole map with creep spread.
Zerg has to actively spread creep to advance on the map, and as a result it takes more time for Zerg to manage to win, while Terran is able to kill Zerg really fast if he is ahead.
It's really a biased point of view to only highlight the fact Zerg has an advantage when he defends on creep, while not mentionning you have the same advantage when you defend because Zerg is offcreep. This is perfectly fair that the one who defend has an advantage, and yes he can push creep to extend the area where he has an advantage, but you can push it back, AND you start with the whole map giving you an advantage vs Zerg units.
c0sm0naut
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1229 Posts
April 22 2020 14:18 GMT
#39
they can balance the game with maps imo
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
April 22 2020 14:34 GMT
#40
Last time community was heard we got Flying Siege tanks.
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
861 Posts
April 22 2020 14:40 GMT
#41
On April 22 2020 23:18 c0sm0naut wrote:
they can balance the game with maps imo


Maps doesn t change something at this point. For example what they called the 'Rush maps' are only the smallest dimension of "normal map". They doesn t bring something new in term of balance, it s only a way to hide the lack of innovation in map making.

Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 32m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 826
ProTech107
BRAT_OK 99
MindelVK 19
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 6693
Sea 3062
EffOrt 653
Mini 569
Stork 297
ggaemo 248
Nal_rA 186
Snow 163
actioN 145
Dewaltoss 89
[ Show more ]
Mong 73
Hyun 37
Aegong 36
Sacsri 34
Movie 33
sSak 26
GoRush 23
Backho 20
yabsab 11
Shine 10
Counter-Strike
fl0m5465
olofmeister2792
Stewie2K641
rGuardiaN84
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor168
Other Games
tarik_tv36878
gofns12796
singsing1451
FrodaN696
B2W.Neo685
Beastyqt661
Lowko238
XaKoH 154
Mew2King85
TKL 68
QueenE60
Trikslyr57
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream1481
StarCraft 2
angryscii 36
Other Games
BasetradeTV31
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 3
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 24
• Azhi_Dahaki23
• Michael_bg 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4285
• masondota2643
League of Legends
• Nemesis6310
• Jankos1782
• TFBlade1250
Other Games
• imaqtpie358
• Shiphtur282
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
6h 32m
GSL Code S
16h 2m
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Online Event
1d 6h
Replay Cast
1d 8h
GSL Code S
1d 16h
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
1d 16h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
OSC
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
[ Show More ]
SOOP
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Cheesadelphia
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
GSL Code S
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.