WCSESL Pro Tour replaces WCS on a 3-year deal - Page 11
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maikacat
18 Posts
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom1658 Posts
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5ecured
536 Posts
What about GSL? Someone here mentioned that the super tournament and GSL vs the world will be removed, leaving only the normal 3x GSL? Is my understanding correct? | ||
Olli
Austria24116 Posts
On January 08 2020 19:40 5ecured wrote: I want to make sure I understand before saying anything. So basically Blizzcon is gone and replaced by IEM Katowice? Isn't this a very sad news? Blizzcon has always been the 'world cup' of SC2 and now its gone just like that? What about GSL? Someone here mentioned that the super tournament and GSL vs the world will be removed, leaving only the normal 3x GSL? Is my understanding correct? As for BlizzCon, yes. That's gone as the Global Finals. There is likely to be some kind of SCII event there still according to Blizzard's announcement, but Katowice takes over as the big final tournament of the season. Personally I think it's a step up. SCII was never the main event at BlizzCon after OW launched, it always included that horrible opening weekend in a soulless studio because they couldn't fit 16 players into one weekend at BlizzCon, and if you remember it often had technical issues. I was there in 2015 and there were more delays than actual games. SCII was also moved to a smaller arena for some years. In Katowice we get a proven event with an awesome format, an amazing arena for bracket stages, there's no need to have an opening weekend filter out half the players so to me I think it will feel like an even bigger event. As for GSL vs the World or events like that, there's no comment yet on whether something like that will happen or not. Apollo said other organizers are free to hold events that contribute points to the tour, so if GSL (assuming it's still GSL) have the budget to hold additional events like ST or GSL vs The World they would be welcome to. So let's wait for the Korean announcement first before drawing conclusions. | ||
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True_Spike
Poland3180 Posts
I like the new system much better than WCS, to be honest. Sad about Blizzcon, but hopefully there's going to be a seperate tournament there anyways. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic8956 Posts
On January 08 2020 18:36 Wombat_NI wrote: TIME had a breakout year, Reynor stepped up a level and Elazer had his big GSLvstW run, yeah top 8 was pretty consistent even though Scarlett had a bad year. Clem is shaping up pretty nicely, it’s a tossup between him and Harstem over whose destined to define 2020. Other stuff we’ll never know without access to parallel dimensions. Do Serral and Reynor get to their current level regardless of system, or would they have pursued other avenues if they had to compete with S class Koreans from the start of their careers? What does the Chinese team league act as a saviour for? Many of us pine for a prestige team league but it’s not Proleague or even GSTL in the sense that the teams aren’t developing and training the players. It just seems to be a bunch of rich guys throwing money at the top (mostly Korean) talent of the day and organic growth is something of an afterthought, if it even is a thought at all. Perhaps this year some of the Korean chops will rub off and it’ll raise the level over in China, but it certainly didn’t happen last year. It was one of the points on the Pylon show that region lock is not that much helping bringing new talents when most of the money is going into the same hands all the time. It's just not Korean hands, that's all. But new talents? Nah. So is Serral good or nah? Because if he's good, Koreans don't matter... so why should especially he care? This is rather bad person to point out of all the foreigners  Read CTC threads  Not my words. But they lost a spot. | ||
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rayl991
33 Posts
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Akio
Finland967 Posts
On January 07 2020 23:23 Ziggy wrote: ESL running an RTS monopoly from 2020 onwards :oo im starting a petition to have Brood War added to the circuit in 2021 That would almost be too good to be true. Don't give me false hopes  | ||
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Harris1st
Germany2950 Posts
On January 08 2020 07:42 Solar424 wrote: I think people don't realize how significant of a downgrade this year is. Last year had 3 $100k WCS events, 3 $150k GSL's, 2 $25k Super Tournaments, 2 $60k WCS Winter events, 18 ~$10k WCS Challenger events, $25k Assembly Summer, $80k GS vs The World, $400k IEM Katowice, and $700k Blizzcon, for a total of $2,305,000 in prize money. This year where, even assuming GSL funding stays the same, we'll have 156 $100 online cups, 4 $125k ESL Masters tournaments, and $400k IEM Katowice in addition to the $480k from the Korean scene, for a total of just $1,495,600 in prize money. That's a drop of over a third. Blizzcon was nearly a third of the WCS prize pool last year, and with that gone and nothing to replace it, the scene is overall worse off. Also, no one has mentioned the $325,000 boost that will only apply to this year, so the prize pool will go down even further in 2021. This seems like cherry-picking at its finest 1. Pretty sure Assembly was funded without Blizz money 2. It is stated there will be SEVEN tournaments, yet you count FIVE? 3. You caculate 450k for Korea. Why? What makes you assume no Super Tournaments and no GSLvWorld? 4. There was a lot of Warchesting in 2019.(~350k) What makes you think this is gone? Or maybe we get an ESL alternative? Stream tickets or sth. 20 bucks a year. I'd be down for that I did not calculate everything through since I'm at work right now, but this seems a minor downgrade if any | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany312 Posts
On January 08 2020 22:34 Harris1st wrote: This seems like cherry-picking at its finest 1. Pretty sure Assembly was funded without Blizz money 2. It is stated there will be SEVEN tournaments, yet you count FIVE? 3. You caculate 450k for Korea. Why? What makes you assume no Super Tournaments and no GSLvWorld? 4. There was a lot of Warchesting in 2019.(~350k) What makes you think this is gone? Or maybe we get an ESL alternative? Stream tickets or sth. 20 bucks a year. I'd be down for that I did not calculate everything through since I'm at work right now, but this seems a minor downgrade if any on top of that the Qualifiers will also still be paid, they just didn t finalise the distribution yet. It is also becoming flatter, wich is realy important for the depth of the scene | ||
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Wombat_NI
Northern Ireland12362 Posts
On January 08 2020 20:22 deacon.frost wrote: It was one of the points on the Pylon show that region lock is not that much helping bringing new talents when most of the money is going into the same hands all the time. It's just not Korean hands, that's all. But new talents? Nah. So is Serral good or nah? Because if he's good, Koreans don't matter... so why should especially he care? This is rather bad person to point out of all the foreigners Read CTC threads Not my words. But they lost a spot.How do you get good in the first place? You don’t go out and fight the final boss right away, you progress more gradually. Serral and Reynor are pretty pertinent examples as they improved over quite a period of time until they were capable of regularly beating S class Koreans. Contrasted with the last Korean player to really break through to that tier which is, nobody last I checked. ESL are making prize pools less top-heavy, presumably for that exact reason. I don’t think the current system is at all close to perfect mind and something needs built to serve Korea in the post eSF/Kespa era for sure. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1605 Posts
On January 08 2020 23:21 Wombat_NI wrote: How do you get good in the first place? You don’t go out and fight the final boss right away, you progress more gradually. Serral and Reynor are pretty pertinent examples as they improved over quite a period of time until they were capable of regularly beating S class Koreans. Contrasted with the last Korean player to really break through to that tier which is, nobody last I checked. ESL are making prize pools less top-heavy, presumably for that exact reason. I don’t think the current system is at all close to perfect mind and something needs built to serve Korea in the post eSF/Kespa era for sure. What are you even trying to say? Now that Serral (the last boss) is in EU and upcoming players meet him in tournaments europé is going to stop growing? Is the reaseon korean sc2 is dying because there are too many players that are too good so they cant improve? Sure tournament experience is important but you don't improve at SC2 through playing in tournaments, you improve through grinding the ladder (and practise partners obviously). In terms of helping players improve it was better without regionlock because players in EU got to ladder against S class koreans (sometimes, more than now). You have everything backwards, just like the Deacon writes. It doesn't matter if the Money is all going into korean or european pros hands, as long as the lower level players are excluded it is hard to grow the scene. The only reason it would be harder to grow the scene Before would be if you would argue that the skill disparity between the koreans farming EU back in the day and the up and comers was more daunting than the current EU professional players farming the tournaments. | ||
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ProBell
United States138 Posts
1. This is great news and all but why increase the prize pool each time we hear the 'good' news? That amount of prize pool you could MAKE 2-4 MORE 'major' events with 30k to first place or a bit less??? Win win for the more chances for the pros to share the pot (rather have dark and maru winning 2 tournaments than dark winning 1 big@$$ prizepool). 2. This is not a troll question, but what if WW3 happens before 2021? | ||
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Nakajin
Canada5588 Posts
On January 09 2020 00:21 ProBell wrote: 2. This is not a troll question, but what if WW3 happens before 2021? Well considering the toll of the economy Blizzard would probably need to implement a 20% reduction in prize pool as well as cutting cross-continental offline event. I have heard they are currently in negotiation with world leaders to make a "Starcraft nuke initiative" where any attack on a SC2 tournament or an area where someone is playing SC2 must be precede by plane blasting out "nuclear launch detected" and a big red laser pointer. Of course all Starcraft player would be exempt from military and TL would become the new hub for cross-alliance resistance to war. So don't worry if WW3 happen I'm sure this new pro Starcraft circuit will be fine. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3910 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy2795 Posts
On January 08 2020 23:51 Shuffleblade wrote: What are you even trying to say? Now that Serral (the last boss) is in EU and upcoming players meet him in tournaments europé is going to stop growing? Is the reaseon korean sc2 is dying because there are too many players that are too good so they cant improve? Sure tournament experience is important but you don't improve at SC2 through playing in tournaments, you improve through grinding the ladder (and practise partners obviously). In terms of helping players improve it was better without regionlock because players in EU got to ladder against S class koreans (sometimes, more than now). You have everything backwards, just like the Deacon writes. It doesn't matter if the Money is all going into korean or european pros hands, as long as the lower level players are excluded it is hard to grow the scene. The only reason it would be harder to grow the scene Before would be if you would argue that the skill disparity between the koreans farming EU back in the day and the up and comers was more daunting than the current EU professional players farming the tournaments. Having a financial return from tournaments or the mere hope of being capable of is more important than offline experience by itself when it comes to the survival of the scene. Your point does not explain why the various Chance, Spear or Rookie haven't gone as far as Reynor, Goblin or even Krystianer, despite Korea having arguably a more competitive ladder(except when we are speaking of Zerg or vZ matchups). The problem with koreans back in the days weren't mainly the MMA or MC stopping Vortix from getting a WCS title, but the lower tier ones suppressing the growth of the foreign scenes; KeSpa trained players, capable of competing with top foreigners and nomatch young/weaker ones, escaping from Korea where they wouldn't have been good(or weren't anymore) to win, and grabbing ro8/ro16 money from promising foreign players: your average Apocalypse, Crank or TheEstc(no hate for those players intended). Region lock occurred in 2016 and in the span of one foreign prospects who were(mostly) WCS Challenger/ro32 material stepped up: uThermal, Harstem, Elazer, not to mention Neeb. We would never know if Serral's ascent would have happened regardless of region lock, but his(and Reynor's) tyrannical grip over WCS made everyone forget it only started in 2018(and 2019): they are monopolizing the top spots in WCS but they are actually "new" players, having replaced older top Zerg like Nerchio and Snute(bringing their dominance to a whole new level). There is a promising rising tide of players born after 2000 starting to make deeper and deeper runs in WCS: time will tell if they will be strong enough to replace the current top players, but they are almost there and are growing at a promising rate. This wouldn't have happened without region lock, which was highly successful if we speak of the growth and the competitiveness of the foreign scene. In any of case, what was happening in 2013-2014 would not happen again if we were to remove region lock in 2021: returning and upcoming(the closest to which are semi unkwnown SKT b teamers Zoun and Dynamite) korean players do not have the strenght and, more importantly, the numbers to hinder any further growth of the foreign scene. At worst, we might have Serral and Reynor tier players winning half or 1/3 of the overall Masters and the top8 of the WCS pushed towards the ro16, but with a more even prize distribution I don't think Goblin or Hellraiser would see them doomed and abandon Starcraft entirely knowing they have to face Super for a ro32 spot. | ||
Ziggy
Poland1477 Posts
On January 08 2020 21:35 Akio wrote: That would almost be too good to be true. Don't give me false hopes If they figure out how to cash in on the Korean audience and how to incorporate Korean players with everyone ending up relatively chuffed then I don't see why not. Granted, it's a big 'if'. | ||
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ZugzwangSC
46 Posts
Perhaps "IEM Katowice SC2 World Championship?" Too cumbersome? I think it's helpful for it to be clear what the crowning achievement is, especially for more casual fans. (Also, if there's going to be a new trophy, can it have Flux Vanes? Or at least cloak?) | ||
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Wombat_NI
Northern Ireland12362 Posts
On January 09 2020 00:44 Xain0n wrote: Having a financial return from tournaments or the mere hope of being capable of is more important than offline experience by itself when it comes to the survival of the scene. Your point does not explain why the various Chance, Spear or Rookie haven't gone as far as Reynor, Goblin or even Krystianer, despite Korea having arguably a more competitive ladder(except when we are speaking of Zerg or vZ matchups). The problem with koreans back in the days weren't mainly the MMA or MC stopping Vortix from getting a WCS title, but the lower tier ones suppressing the growth of the foreign scenes; KeSpa trained players, capable of competing with top foreigners and nomatch young/weaker ones, escaping from Korea where they wouldn't have been good(or weren't anymore) to win, and grabbing ro8/ro16 money from promising foreign players: your average Apocalypse, Crank or TheEstc(no hate for those players intended). Region lock occurred in 2016 and in the span of one foreign prospects who were(mostly) WCS Challenger/ro32 material stepped up: uThermal, Harstem, Elazer, not to mention Neeb. We would never know if Serral's ascent would have happened regardless of region lock, but his(and Reynor's) tyrannical grip over WCS made everyone forget it only started in 2018(and 2019): they are monopolizing the top spots in WCS but they are actually "new" players, having replaced older top Zerg like Nerchio and Snute(bringing their dominance to a whole new level). There is a promising rising tide of players born after 2000 starting to make deeper and deeper runs in WCS: time will tell if they will be strong enough to replace the current top players, but they are almost there and are growing at a promising rate. This wouldn't have happened without region lock, which was highly successful if we speak of the growth and the competitiveness of the foreign scene. In any of case, what was happening in 2013-2014 would not happen again if we were to remove region lock in 2021: returning and upcoming(the closest to which are semi unkwnown SKT b teamers Zoun and Dynamite) korean players do not have the strenght and, more importantly, the numbers to hinder any further growth of the foreign scene. At worst, we might have Serral and Reynor tier players winning half or 1/3 of the overall Masters and the top8 of the WCS pushed towards the ro16, but with a more even prize distribution I don't think Goblin or Hellraiser would see them doomed and abandon Starcraft entirely knowing they have to face Super for a ro32 spot. Yes basically a better and more articulately argued version of what I was saying. Excluding passion, if I’m a parent and my kid wants to delay school and go full-time in the current structure of the scene (especially with more ESL online tournies), I’d be way more likely to fully support that than in previous iterations. Some do still have to supplement their income of course, but good foreigners aren’t all regular streamers as much as before. Even top foreigners of various times were juggling playing at that level with studying, your Lucifrons and Nerchios of the world. Now that it’s more viable to at least earn a crust as a top foreigner purely from playing tournaments the level has really improved quite a bit, which was to be expected. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany2950 Posts
On January 09 2020 00:44 Xain0n wrote: In any of case, what was happening in 2013-2014 would not happen again if we were to remove region lock in 2021: returning and upcoming(the closest to which are semi unkwnown SKT b teamers Zoun and Dynamite) korean players do not have the strenght and, more importantly, the numbers to hinder any further growth of the foreign scene. At worst, we might have Serral and Reynor tier players winning half or 1/3 of the overall Masters and the top8 of the WCS pushed towards the ro16, but with a more even prize distribution I don't think Goblin or Hellraiser would see them doomed and abandon Starcraft entirely knowing they have to face Super for a ro32 spot. Zoun just did that + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/0W1dnWK.jpg) | ||
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The rest was said by Elentos 
