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ESL Pro Tour replaces WCS on a 3-year deal - Page 12

Forum Index > SC2 General
267 CommentsPost a Reply
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vyzion
Profile Joined August 2016
308 Posts
January 08 2020 18:08 GMT
#221
HYPE!!!! Best game of all time will live on
vyzion
Profile Joined August 2016
308 Posts
January 08 2020 18:08 GMT
#222
On January 08 2020 18:45 maikacat wrote:
Time to build Vietnamese scene for real


Yes please! FOR THE MOTHERLAND!!
vyzion
Profile Joined August 2016
308 Posts
January 08 2020 18:11 GMT
#223
I understand people may have some concerns but being hyper-focused on what is lost or the "bad news" is a fool's errand, beggars can't be choosers. The game and competitive scene lives on, contribute to it!
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8304 Posts
January 08 2020 19:33 GMT
#224
I have mixed feelings about this. This part in particular:

IEM Katowice, starting in 2021, will serve as the “replacement” for BlizzCon, crowning the StarCraft II world champion.


No more SC2 at Blizzcon (if I'm understanding that correctly) is a real bummer.

That being said, that video was hype as fuck, I loved that.
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
hexhaven
Profile Joined July 2014
Finland931 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-08 19:35:28
January 08 2020 19:34 GMT
#225
On January 09 2020 04:33 TheDougler wrote:
I have mixed feelings about this. This part in particular:

Show nested quote +
IEM Katowice, starting in 2021, will serve as the “replacement” for BlizzCon, crowning the StarCraft II world champion.


No more SC2 at Blizzcon (if I'm understanding that correctly) is a real bummer.

That being said, that video was hype as fuck, I loved that.


There's going to be some SC2 at Blizzcon, whether it's a tournament or a showmatch. Just won't be the world championship finals.


e: Having a relatively simple weekender there makes more sense than having the WCS Playoffs and Finals. Katowice is better in pretty much every way.
WriterI shoot events. | http://www.jussi.co/esports
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
January 08 2020 19:43 GMT
#226
On January 09 2020 04:33 TheDougler wrote:
I have mixed feelings about this. This part in particular:

Show nested quote +
IEM Katowice, starting in 2021, will serve as the “replacement” for BlizzCon, crowning the StarCraft II world champion.


No more SC2 at Blizzcon (if I'm understanding that correctly) is a real bummer.

That being said, that video was hype as fuck, I loved that.


I've edited that bit now for a bit more clarity. Blizzard's announcement does suggest there will be some kind of SCII event at BlizzCon, but it won't be like the Global Finals of WCS. That season finale will be IEM Katowice.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-08 19:48:03
January 08 2020 19:45 GMT
#227
On January 09 2020 04:43 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2020 04:33 TheDougler wrote:
I have mixed feelings about this. This part in particular:

IEM Katowice, starting in 2021, will serve as the “replacement” for BlizzCon, crowning the StarCraft II world champion.


No more SC2 at Blizzcon (if I'm understanding that correctly) is a real bummer.

That being said, that video was hype as fuck, I loved that.


I've edited that bit now for a bit more clarity. Blizzard's announcement does suggest there will be some kind of SCII event at BlizzCon, but it won't be like the Global Finals of WCS. That season finale will be IEM Katowice.

Really it's less of a suggestion and more of an outright confirmation. They're just not coming out with what exactly they're planning yet, but they will have something.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19229 Posts
January 09 2020 03:42 GMT
#228
This is great, but ESL has failed to explain what their acronym is or who/what the heck they are. Can someone fill me in please?
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10125 Posts
January 09 2020 03:42 GMT
#229
On January 09 2020 12:42 BisuDagger wrote:
This is great, but ESL has failed to explain what their acronym is or who/what the heck they are. Can someone fill me in please?

English Second Language, it is all a cover-up to bring Koreans back into foreign tournaments and teach them better English.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
January 09 2020 03:49 GMT
#230
On January 09 2020 12:42 BisuDagger wrote:
This is great, but ESL has failed to explain what their acronym is or who/what the heck they are. Can someone fill me in please?


Electronic Sports League is the one you are looking for!
yoshi245
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2969 Posts
January 09 2020 04:09 GMT
#231
Well this is interesting. A bit bummed about Blizzcon no longer going to be hosting the Grand Finals, but if the scene moves on, that's great.

I do wonder about who or what will be hosting the korean side of things though. I hope Afreeca and ESL work out a reasonable agreement and keep as many GSL events as possible.
"Numbers speak about the past, not the present." -Thorzain
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
January 09 2020 04:19 GMT
#232
On January 09 2020 12:42 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2020 12:42 BisuDagger wrote:
This is great, but ESL has failed to explain what their acronym is or who/what the heck they are. Can someone fill me in please?

English Second Language, it is all a cover-up to bring Koreans back into foreign tournaments and teach them better English.


hahaha
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
January 09 2020 04:44 GMT
#233
On January 09 2020 12:42 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2020 12:42 BisuDagger wrote:
This is great, but ESL has failed to explain what their acronym is or who/what the heck they are. Can someone fill me in please?

English Second Language, it is all a cover-up to bring Koreans back into foreign tournaments and teach them better English.


Solar would be the main beneficiary of replacing region-lock with an English proficiency test.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
January 09 2020 05:07 GMT
#234
It makes way more sense to have blizzcon as just another weekender and katowice as the global finals. It terms of structure/competition it's been better suited that way around since 2017.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-09 09:51:43
January 09 2020 09:49 GMT
#235
On January 09 2020 00:44 Xain0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 08 2020 23:51 Shuffleblade wrote:
On January 08 2020 23:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
On January 08 2020 20:22 deacon.frost wrote:
On January 08 2020 18:36 Wombat_NI wrote:
On January 08 2020 17:41 deacon.frost wrote:
On January 08 2020 03:49 franzji wrote:
Apollo is hinting at removing the region lock in future years.

Please don't do this. We know from experience that it will only hurt the regions we have worked so hard to build. Don't even give the anti-region lock people a voice.

We also know from other esports that we should he region based esports if was want continued success.

Just create more international events if you want more Koreans vs. others.

What has been built in the foreigner lands exactly?
China has a team league savior status. They just lost a spot.
What new faces were seen in the top8 of WCS in the past? I was under the impression it's mostly the same people getting the monies, where's the development?

I am not following the foreign scene so this is an honest question, can you elaborate and give me some good examples? The rest was said by Elentos

TIME had a breakout year, Reynor stepped up a level and Elazer had his big GSLvstW run, yeah top 8 was pretty consistent even though Scarlett had a bad year. Clem is shaping up pretty nicely, it’s a tossup between him and Harstem over whose destined to define 2020.

Other stuff we’ll never know without access to parallel dimensions. Do Serral and Reynor get to their current level regardless of system, or would they have pursued other avenues if they had to compete with S class Koreans from the start of their careers?

What does the Chinese team league act as a saviour for?

Many of us pine for a prestige team league but it’s not Proleague or even GSTL in the sense that the teams aren’t developing and training the players. It just seems to be a bunch of rich guys throwing money at the top (mostly Korean) talent of the day and organic growth is something of an afterthought, if it even is a thought at all.

Perhaps this year some of the Korean chops will rub off and it’ll raise the level over in China, but it certainly didn’t happen last year.




It was one of the points on the Pylon show that region lock is not that much helping bringing new talents when most of the money is going into the same hands all the time. It's just not Korean hands, that's all. But new talents? Nah.

So is Serral good or nah? Because if he's good, Koreans don't matter... so why should especially he care? This is rather bad person to point out of all the foreigners

Read CTC threads Not my words. But they lost a spot.

How do you get good in the first place? You don’t go out and fight the final boss right away, you progress more gradually.

Serral and Reynor are pretty pertinent examples as they improved over quite a period of time until they were capable of regularly beating S class Koreans. Contrasted with the last Korean player to really break through to that tier which is, nobody last I checked.

ESL are making prize pools less top-heavy, presumably for that exact reason.

I don’t think the current system is at all close to perfect mind and something needs built to serve Korea in the post eSF/Kespa era for sure.

What are you even trying to say? Now that Serral (the last boss) is in EU and upcoming players meet him in tournaments europé is going to stop growing? Is the reaseon korean sc2 is dying because there are too many players that are too good so they cant improve?

Sure tournament experience is important but you don't improve at SC2 through playing in tournaments, you improve through grinding the ladder (and practise partners obviously). In terms of helping players improve it was better without regionlock because players in EU got to ladder against S class koreans (sometimes, more than now). You have everything backwards, just like the Deacon writes. It doesn't matter if the Money is all going into korean or european pros hands, as long as the lower level players are excluded it is hard to grow the scene. The only reason it would be harder to grow the scene Before would be if you would argue that the skill disparity between the koreans farming EU back in the day and the up and comers was more daunting than the current EU professional players farming the tournaments.


Having a financial return from tournaments or the mere hope of being capable of is more important than offline experience by itself when it comes to the survival of the scene.
Your point does not explain why the various Chance, Spear or Rookie haven't gone as far as Reynor, Goblin or even Krystianer, despite Korea having arguably a more competitive ladder(except when we are speaking of Zerg or vZ matchups).

The problem with koreans back in the days weren't mainly the MMA or MC stopping Vortix from getting a WCS title, but the lower tier ones suppressing the growth of the foreign scenes; KeSpa trained players, capable of competing with top foreigners and nomatch young/weaker ones, escaping from Korea where they wouldn't have been good(or weren't anymore) to win, and grabbing ro8/ro16 money from promising foreign players: your average Apocalypse, Crank or TheEstc(no hate for those players intended).

Region lock occurred in 2016 and in the span of one foreign prospects who were(mostly) WCS Challenger/ro32 material stepped up: uThermal, Harstem, Elazer, not to mention Neeb.
We would never know if Serral's ascent would have happened regardless of region lock, but his(and Reynor's) tyrannical grip over WCS made everyone forget it only started in 2018(and 2019): they are monopolizing the top spots in WCS but they are actually "new" players, having replaced older top Zerg like Nerchio and Snute(bringing their dominance to a whole new level).
There is a promising rising tide of players born after 2000 starting to make deeper and deeper runs in WCS: time will tell if they will be strong enough to replace the current top players, but they are almost there and are growing at a promising rate. This wouldn't have happened without region lock, which was highly successful if we speak of the growth and the competitiveness of the foreign scene.

In any of case, what was happening in 2013-2014 would not happen again if we were to remove region lock in 2021: returning and upcoming(the closest to which are semi unkwnown SKT b teamers Zoun and Dynamite) korean players do not have the strenght and, more importantly, the numbers to hinder any further growth of the foreign scene.
At worst, we might have Serral and Reynor tier players winning half or 1/3 of the overall Masters and the top8 of the WCS pushed towards the ro16, but with a more even prize distribution I don't think Goblin or Hellraiser would see them doomed and abandon Starcraft entirely knowing they have to face Super for a ro32 spot.

Generally well written and explained points but I don't agree with you entirely.

For one thing thing just because the foreign scene in general had explosive improvement after regionlock that does not automatically mean that it was eniterely due to regionlock. Blizzard har tried a lot of things throughout the years, when a change coincides with a positive result you cannot simply use that fact to prove that the change caused the result.

You argue I can't explain who the korean lower tier players haven't become as successful players as Reynor or Serral, no I can't and just because you can make up an explanation that you believe in that in itself is not an argument as to if you are right or not.

I would argue EU is and have been for quite a while the region in the world were SC2 is the most popular (at least double the amount of players as korea) and even if SC2 is almost as popular in America and China those regions have significantly less pro players. Sure korea has historically due to proleague, teamhouses and BW progamings in general had an edge at the top level isn't it expected that if korea has close to one third the amount of players as EU would overtime improve up to or past the korean level? One very important question as to the health of a pro scene in my opinion is how many full time players there are, EU has a lot, perhaps not as many as korea but still.

I am not saying regionlock did not serve a purpose or didn't contribute but maybe it wasn't the only reason, maybe you are wrong and if regionlock didn't happen EU would still catch up to korea. We actually don't know.

Edit:
In regards to Blizzcon and what kind of SC2 content will be there I really hope it will be some kind of tournament, weekender or so but I doubt it. It feels to me like Blizzard doesn't want to bother putting so much energy into SC2 in blizzcon and a weekender isn't really that much easier than a RO8. They will probably take the easy way out here even though I hope they won't.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
January 09 2020 10:00 GMT
#236
On January 08 2020 23:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 08 2020 20:22 deacon.frost wrote:
On January 08 2020 18:36 Wombat_NI wrote:
On January 08 2020 17:41 deacon.frost wrote:
On January 08 2020 03:49 franzji wrote:
Apollo is hinting at removing the region lock in future years.

Please don't do this. We know from experience that it will only hurt the regions we have worked so hard to build. Don't even give the anti-region lock people a voice.

We also know from other esports that we should he region based esports if was want continued success.

Just create more international events if you want more Koreans vs. others.

What has been built in the foreigner lands exactly?
China has a team league savior status. They just lost a spot.
What new faces were seen in the top8 of WCS in the past? I was under the impression it's mostly the same people getting the monies, where's the development?

I am not following the foreign scene so this is an honest question, can you elaborate and give me some good examples? The rest was said by Elentos

TIME had a breakout year, Reynor stepped up a level and Elazer had his big GSLvstW run, yeah top 8 was pretty consistent even though Scarlett had a bad year. Clem is shaping up pretty nicely, it’s a tossup between him and Harstem over whose destined to define 2020.

Other stuff we’ll never know without access to parallel dimensions. Do Serral and Reynor get to their current level regardless of system, or would they have pursued other avenues if they had to compete with S class Koreans from the start of their careers?

What does the Chinese team league act as a saviour for?

Many of us pine for a prestige team league but it’s not Proleague or even GSTL in the sense that the teams aren’t developing and training the players. It just seems to be a bunch of rich guys throwing money at the top (mostly Korean) talent of the day and organic growth is something of an afterthought, if it even is a thought at all.

Perhaps this year some of the Korean chops will rub off and it’ll raise the level over in China, but it certainly didn’t happen last year.




It was one of the points on the Pylon show that region lock is not that much helping bringing new talents when most of the money is going into the same hands all the time. It's just not Korean hands, that's all. But new talents? Nah.

So is Serral good or nah? Because if he's good, Koreans don't matter... so why should especially he care? This is rather bad person to point out of all the foreigners

Read CTC threads Not my words. But they lost a spot.

How do you get good in the first place? You don’t go out and fight the final boss right away, you progress more gradually.

Serral and Reynor are pretty pertinent examples as they improved over quite a period of time until they were capable of regularly beating S class Koreans. Contrasted with the last Korean player to really break through to that tier which is, nobody last I checked.

ESL are making prize pools less top-heavy, presumably for that exact reason.

I don’t think the current system is at all close to perfect mind and something needs built to serve Korea in the post eSF/Kespa era for sure.

My point was that the experience is useless, you need monies to git gut. IF you don't get monies because most of the monies gets into top8 which is stale for years now(it's not about Reynor and Serral, it's about top7 players being all the time the same people). Flattening the prize pools helps a little but this is the issue. Region lock doesn't change this(mostly because players needs them monies to travel, the biggest excuse about foreigners vs GSL while foreigner house exists but at the same time the same people don't include this when they support the lock )
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6879 Posts
January 09 2020 10:24 GMT
#237
On January 09 2020 18:49 Shuffleblade wrote:

Edit:
In regards to Blizzcon and what kind of SC2 content will be there I really hope it will be some kind of tournament, weekender or so but I doubt it. It feels to me like Blizzard doesn't want to bother putting so much energy into SC2 in blizzcon and a weekender isn't really that much easier than a RO8. They will probably take the easy way out here even though I hope they won't.


I'm guessing some sort of exhibitions matches or maybe some invited top 8 players (1-2 from each region) flavored with some new skins and coop commanders and stuff
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9607 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-09 11:04:59
January 09 2020 11:02 GMT
#238
With Blizzard no longer in full control of the brand, Apollo confirmed that ESL and DreamHack would have greater creative freedom, citing IEM Katowice as an example of how talent at Pro Tour events might be given greater license to "mess around and have fun".


Does this mean we get more tournaments like ROG 2012??

RIP Geoff.

That tournament is my number 1 SC2 memory. The community will be less stale when everyone is allowed to have fun and let go. I couldn't be more excited for this.

"Yeah, I'm scared of Taeja, he's the best terran right now and I'm only top 100 protoss. I'm so troubled, no skill only luck."

MC

More player interviews like this from now on please.
RIP Meatloaf <3
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25012 Posts
January 09 2020 13:55 GMT
#239
Hm, GomTV’s YouTube has sprung into activity after years of nothing, rather intriguing given the proximity to this announcement
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Harris1st
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany6879 Posts
January 09 2020 14:30 GMT
#240
On January 09 2020 22:55 Wombat_NI wrote:
Hm, GomTV’s YouTube has sprung into activity after years of nothing, rather intriguing given the proximity to this announcement


GomTvT? The Return of the Terranwalker

I wouldn't read too much into that tbh.
Go Serral! GG EZ for Ence. Flashbang dance FTW
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