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On June 22 2007 23:54 LessThanThree wrote:
First off, I'd like to say that all the "anti-whiners" are just as bad as the people whining. If Blizzard listened to you exclusively we would have Warcraft IV: Orcs in Space. Blizzard isn't infallible or they wouldn't have to patch their games. Quit saying, "It will be good," and start asking if it really will be good.
QFT
People should not complain "OMG SC2 is gonna suck" or act like SC2 all fine and perfect. They should ask themselves questions and try to answer the impact of the positive and negatives.
I remember people when people were whining about things like 3D, multi-selection, AMM, auto-gather, money maps, mass selection, and so on before SC2 was announced. In a business sense, it would be suicide not to include these features. With these features, beginners have a shorter time learning the basics while pros will still be pros.
Let's be honest about what the majority of people don't see in Starcraft. They don't see how deep the strategies are because they're busy playing money maps and like watching their large scale battles without much micro. We're the minority. They aren't hardcore players like us that plays ladder and can accept losing 15 game straight 
Thankfully, Blizzard made SC2, at its core, a hardcore game then beginner features revolved around it.
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On June 22 2007 23:54 LessThanThree wrote:
First off, I'd like to say that all the "anti-whiners" are just as bad as the people whining. If Blizzard listened to you exclusively we would have Warcraft IV: Orcs in Space. Blizzard isn't infallible or they wouldn't have to patch their games. Quit saying, "It will be good," and start asking if it really will be good.
I'm personally in favor of a lot of the new things mentioned. Unlimited unit selection doesn't bother me in the least, since in battles people will still be selecting small groups of units. Imagine throwing that huge zergling army at that little pack of archons with one click. Straight line of lings + couple archons = lolzerg. Unlimited unit selection will just make things a little less painful when you have 13 units to move into battle.
As for the mothership? It's a great idea. It strengthens the idea that the protoss rely on low numbers with lots of power and doesn't even really fit as a super unit. Simply the fact that only one race has it should be indication enough that it isn't going to be game-controlling, and its skillset only further enforces that. It seems less like a unit of destruction than a strong support unit. Look closely at its health in the demo video. That thing would've died 20 times over if not for it regenerating shields incredibly fast. Furthermore, look at its skillset in relation to the new units. Tempests have no shield against other air units. Is it a coincidence that the mothership happens to have an instant-kill anti air spell? The planet cracker forces the mothership to fly directly over the enemy units? How the hell is that useful unless... You distract the anti-air into traveling elsewhere then nail that unsuspecting pack of siege tanks! It seems that the mothership's purpose is not to win the game, but to shift battles in the Protoss' favor.
However, MBS still scares me. Badly. In Brood War macro serves to force players' attention away from the combat. Imagine a BW without that clicksink. See those 50 apm players deftly stopping every drop, cheese, and other form of harassment you attempt? Seems dull to me. Put simply, without the clicksink generated by macro, harassment becomes weaker and the game becomes more boring. Of course, there's no guarantee this will be the case. The way I see it there are two options.
Firstly, Blizzard could make MBS very simplistic, and this is the good option. Imagine in Brood War, you're protoss, you've got 1K minerals and 450 gas. You have 4 gates hotkeyed to #. You go #T to bust out those templar, then go to hit Z to make sure you don't waste that empty building. Now your production looks like this: 1: HT, Zeal. 2: HT, Zeal. 3: HT, Zeal. 4: Zeal. It's a pretty way to throw 300 minerals to nothing. The result is that MBS probably won't be used too much by decent players, since Toss and Terran will both run into this issue, and zerg has to be very conscious about larvae count. In this way, we're left with a system that *can* allow for easier macroing, but because of its weaknesses will still leave us rushing back to our bases, clicking through our buildings except in the most urgent of situations.
The other option is the one that scares me: Blizzard makes MBS perfectly streamlined. Now in the situation above you don't have wasted zeals hidden behind the HTs. Do this and that clicksink I was talking about before vanishes, along with the ability to exploit an opponent's inability to multitask. (On this note, I don't give a rat's ass about the addition of rallying to resources, it's a minor clicksink and not worth keeping, macro on the other hand is *the* clicksink) So, until we know how MBS is implemented, I'd say it's a pretty damn scary concept. If Blizzard makes it too good, SC2 will lose its largest clicksink and will become Orcs in Space without heroes. If the other option happens, then casuals will be happy with the UI and the clicksink will still largely remain for the rest of us.
Just my 2 cents... Flame away... >.>
I think your basing this on the OLD protoss way of production.
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On June 22 2007 12:48 Duffybeer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2007 12:09 phexac wrote:
If you think that the lack of ability to select multiple buildings and an artificial limit imposed on unit selection is all the separates BW from other RTS and that the ability to best overcome these interface limitations is all that separates a good player from a newb, chances are you are a whining chobofucker. Idiot, its what makes this game so classic, and challenging, chances your just some stupid wow nerd or warcraft player that wants to impose ideas suited to the noobass warcraft players, whom don't have even have a clue what a real challening game like starcraft should be. I can't believe Blizzard listens to idiots like you, idiots like you couldn't figure that Moon was not really the best war3 player in the world, and won because of circumstances, and that they were plenty of other players that could beat him; but because of chances, moon seemed so dominant but you being the idiot fanboy warcraft nerd that you are worshipped him as the best player in the world without having any idea at all. Your that fanboy, or you're just a stupid noob ass kid. STFU seriously, we don't want CNC, or warcraft in space with elf imbalance that ruins war3. People like you made elf imbalanced in war3. In conclusion just STFU kid. I can't believe you guys are attacking the people who are complaining about things that they should. Blizzard decision to make unlimited unit selection and many other things, will only make starcraft look incompetent and an unworthy sucessor to broodwar. I say complain as much as possible, I would hate to see warcraft in space, or another CNC. Justin Browder should not have been chosen for this job. Being noob friendly is not an option, are you guys seriously noobs? I hope not, because the original features as someone already pointed out makes this game challenging, for competence. I don't think a pro like Nada will like this, seriously guys, have you been affected by the CNC-I want everything to be easy-EA strat games rock-support war3 fanboys to make starcraft 2 imbalanced with elf in space- attract 12 year old noobs and other ignorant idiots to Sc2 to make the community more stupid disease?
With the risk of repeating myself, GOOD UI = WAR3, BAD UI = GOOD GAME, RETARDED UI = AWESOME GAME, so Blizz should just make the most retarded game ever and you'll be happy, why doesn't Blizz listen, damn!
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On June 23 2007 00:34 LanceCulahn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2007 23:54 LessThanThree wrote:
First off, I'd like to say that all the "anti-whiners" are just as bad as the people whining. If Blizzard listened to you exclusively we would have Warcraft IV: Orcs in Space. Blizzard isn't infallible or they wouldn't have to patch their games. Quit saying, "It will be good," and start asking if it really will be good.
I'm personally in favor of a lot of the new things mentioned. Unlimited unit selection doesn't bother me in the least, since in battles people will still be selecting small groups of units. Imagine throwing that huge zergling army at that little pack of archons with one click. Straight line of lings + couple archons = lolzerg. Unlimited unit selection will just make things a little less painful when you have 13 units to move into battle.
As for the mothership? It's a great idea. It strengthens the idea that the protoss rely on low numbers with lots of power and doesn't even really fit as a super unit. Simply the fact that only one race has it should be indication enough that it isn't going to be game-controlling, and its skillset only further enforces that. It seems less like a unit of destruction than a strong support unit. Look closely at its health in the demo video. That thing would've died 20 times over if not for it regenerating shields incredibly fast. Furthermore, look at its skillset in relation to the new units. Tempests have no shield against other air units. Is it a coincidence that the mothership happens to have an instant-kill anti air spell? The planet cracker forces the mothership to fly directly over the enemy units? How the hell is that useful unless... You distract the anti-air into traveling elsewhere then nail that unsuspecting pack of siege tanks! It seems that the mothership's purpose is not to win the game, but to shift battles in the Protoss' favor.
However, MBS still scares me. Badly. In Brood War macro serves to force players' attention away from the combat. Imagine a BW without that clicksink. See those 50 apm players deftly stopping every drop, cheese, and other form of harassment you attempt? Seems dull to me. Put simply, without the clicksink generated by macro, harassment becomes weaker and the game becomes more boring. Of course, there's no guarantee this will be the case. The way I see it there are two options.
Firstly, Blizzard could make MBS very simplistic, and this is the good option. Imagine in Brood War, you're protoss, you've got 1K minerals and 450 gas. You have 4 gates hotkeyed to #. You go #T to bust out those templar, then go to hit Z to make sure you don't waste that empty building. Now your production looks like this: 1: HT, Zeal. 2: HT, Zeal. 3: HT, Zeal. 4: Zeal. It's a pretty way to throw 300 minerals to nothing. The result is that MBS probably won't be used too much by decent players, since Toss and Terran will both run into this issue, and zerg has to be very conscious about larvae count. In this way, we're left with a system that *can* allow for easier macroing, but because of its weaknesses will still leave us rushing back to our bases, clicking through our buildings except in the most urgent of situations.
The other option is the one that scares me: Blizzard makes MBS perfectly streamlined. Now in the situation above you don't have wasted zeals hidden behind the HTs. Do this and that clicksink I was talking about before vanishes, along with the ability to exploit an opponent's inability to multitask. (On this note, I don't give a rat's ass about the addition of rallying to resources, it's a minor clicksink and not worth keeping, macro on the other hand is *the* clicksink) So, until we know how MBS is implemented, I'd say it's a pretty damn scary concept. If Blizzard makes it too good, SC2 will lose its largest clicksink and will become Orcs in Space without heroes. If the other option happens, then casuals will be happy with the UI and the clicksink will still largely remain for the rest of us.
Just my 2 cents... Flame away... >.> I think your basing this on the OLD protoss way of production.
yeap in SC2 to build 6 templ and 4 zeal u have to click 6 times T and 4 times Z... it's easy then 4z5z6z7z8t9t0t (or selectgateZselectgateZselectgateZ etc) but it's not WC3 style where u click Z and all gate build zealot...
PS and with warp gate upgrade u get same but reversed ZselectZselectZselectZselect etc.
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Too many purist retards in this thread 
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To everyone who's concerned about the macro/micro being easier for players, how about Starcraft 2 has a pointlessly terrible interface, so you can only select one unit at a time? That would require much more APM, which obviously means it would be a more fun and challenging game.
[/sarcasm]
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On June 26 2007 01:26 EscPlan9 wrote:
To everyone who's concerned about the macro/micro being easier for players, how about Starcraft 2 has a pointlessly terrible interface, so you can only select one unit at a time? That would require much more APM, which obviously means it would be a more fun and challenging game.
[/sarcasm]
Totally agree, best idea ever! You should also have to press the hotkey 5 times to produce a unit, that would truly make STARCRAFT 2 GREAT(for retards).
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On June 26 2007 02:01 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2007 01:26 EscPlan9 wrote:
To everyone who's concerned about the macro/micro being easier for players, how about Starcraft 2 has a pointlessly terrible interface, so you can only select one unit at a time? That would require much more APM, which obviously means it would be a more fun and challenging game.
[/sarcasm] Totally agree, best idea ever! You should also have to press the hotkey 5 times to produce a unit, that would truly make STARCRAFT 2 GREAT(for retards).
HAI GUYS, ANYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH LOLOLOL IN THE SLIGHTEST MUST CLEARLY BE A ReTARD!!! GOD FORBID YOU GIVE YOUR IMPUT ON WHAT YOU SEE!!!
every post you make in the sc2 thread is flaming someone for having an opinion different than your own. its almost as annoying as that idiot dendra. seriously, calm the fuck down and shut up if youre going to flame instead of discuss.
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MBS and unlimited select won't make for an easier game, on the contrary it will make the games "mundane" tasks much more complicated and demand more game experience to handle.
And this is something I personally never wanted from sc2. A big part of the reason (i think) why sc became a sport is because it is so fucking easy to play that even 12 year old fan girls that have played 20 games total still can appreciate pro matches.
I think this is the beuty of bw, easy easy rules, and still downright impossible to master. And I for one am sad to see this go.
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quote:
However, MBS still scares me. Badly. In Brood War macro serves to force players' attention away from the combat. Imagine a BW without that clicksink. See those 50 apm players deftly stopping every drop, cheese, and other form of harassment you attempt? Seems dull to me. Put simply, without the clicksink generated by macro, harassment becomes weaker and the game becomes more boring. Of course, there's no guarantee this will be the case. The way I see it there are two options.
------- end quote
I have to disagree here, at least partly. I find aggressiveness and harass play easier whenever less effort is needed to manage your base/build units. I mean, when a zerg is spending a lot of time with muta harass, it is obviously the easier larva-based unit production (with a low hatch count) that make it possible to harass almost nonstop for a couple(?) of minutes at a time with mutas in early or mid game.
If you had to go back to your base and build from 15 zerg-gateways, guess how far you'll get with Muta harass? Nowhere. Which is why late game harass is more often than not, a half hearted attempt at harass... and is usually more sloppily executed and more often than not relies on the enemy not noticing the initial harass- dark temps with free drone kills or a drop in a worker line a second after a frontal force engagement. And/Or it relies on units that need no actual micro to do their thing. Drop 8 marines, stim, and forget. Check for cloak detection, drop 2 dark temps and forget. There could be so much more done offensively late game, if there were more time to do it (on fastest game speed).
MBS is one way to allow late game micro to be at least somewhat more doable, as opposed to a less micro/more sloppy harass situation. MBS could have it's problems, but the good is outweighing the bad for me at least in theory. There are exceptions of course, but only when you are forced to spend more than a second or two harassing late game. With MBS, you can harass more cleanly and still build back at your base... is the way I see it.
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On June 26 2007 11:06 KlaCkoN wrote:
MBS and unlimited select won't make for an easier game, on the contrary it will make the games "mundane" tasks much more complicated and demand more game experience to handle.
And this is something I personally never wanted from sc2. A big part of the reason (i think) why sc became a sport is because it is so fucking easy to play that even 12 year old fan girls that have played 20 games total still can appreciate pro matches.
I think this is the beuty of bw, easy easy rules, and still downright impossible to master. And I for one am sad to see this go.
I think I see where you are coming from, but I still think MBS is intended to (and will) make some of the mundane tasks easier. Basically, if it's a Repetitive thing that the computer can do better than the player most of the time, then that's something the UI may need to address.
It's the complex decision making and micro, for me, that make starcraft so cool. There are a million other things that help the experience, but those are probably the biggest two for me. I think it's those two things that create the diversity amongst the strict rules that keeps the game challenging and fun for a decade. Those are also the biggest two things I like to watch done well by progamers. I think it's those two things that make Nal_rA and Boxer very fun to watch and popular. When things stagnate and the same strats are used over and over, and safe turtle->macro, non-aggressive play is the best answer 95% of the time... well it starts to get boring to play and watch. Why else do so many people complain about TvT lately?
Seriously though. Wouldn't you like to see the amount of detail in early game harass still used later in the game? The only way to allow this at fastest game speed is to allow players options on spending less time on their base management.
And obviously Blizzard isn't all about killing the complexities of training your units... I don't want a computer making decisions for me on what ratio of units I want to build, or where to rally, or exactly when to build a unit. I don't want the computer to think it's smarter than me at StarCraft, because I'll be damned if it is. I still hate MS word to this day because of all the automatic stuff they put in there... every time I install it I have to spend ages turning all the auto stuff off. No, I like the way I do things, and that's that. But MBS to me isn't taking away from that. Obviously when I want to be very specific and careful in how I build my units, I will address each building very carefully. But in a 30 minute game with near max units, I would rather be spending more time on the battles without auto-losing b/c I overdid my micro by 5 seconds per battle as opposed to spending most of my time on my factories.
This brings me to a topic I've been wanting to make a new post about regarding the latest trends in SC progaming. It's related to why Terran high APM players are so centered around late game macro games (compare this to early days of Boxer micro), why high level Protoss players are less often seen, and why zerg styles differ so greatly between some high level players. Basically, if MBS was implemented in SC1, I see Boxer and JulyZerg rising in win/loss ratio and OOV showing us more micro skills and more harass in his games. I see more Protoss high level players emerge, and less high templar dying from control group attack moves (man I REALLY hate seeing pros throw their Templars away for no reason). Some of this is based on word of mouth, as I only recently (this year) started watching the progamers heavily... but is a interesting topic regardless.
Look for this post, hopefully today, in the strat? section.
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On June 26 2007 10:02 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2007 02:01 lololol wrote:On June 26 2007 01:26 EscPlan9 wrote:
To everyone who's concerned about the macro/micro being easier for players, how about Starcraft 2 has a pointlessly terrible interface, so you can only select one unit at a time? That would require much more APM, which obviously means it would be a more fun and challenging game.
[/sarcasm] Totally agree, best idea ever! You should also have to press the hotkey 5 times to produce a unit, that would truly make STARCRAFT 2 GREAT(for retards). HAI GUYS, ANYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH LOLOLOL IN THE SLIGHTEST MUST CLEARLY BE A ReTARD!!! GOD FORBID YOU GIVE YOUR IMPUT ON WHAT YOU SEE!!! every post you make in the sc2 thread is flaming someone for having an opinion different than your own. its almost as annoying as that idiot dendra. seriously, calm the fuck down and shut up if youre going to flame instead of discuss.
LOL, a retard got offended, how suprising! And now he follows me in the threads I post and tries to flame me... ROFL... it's damn obvious you're the one that needs to calm down and stfu, you're not discussing anything in any of your posts or back up yourself with anything reasonable, you're just whining like the little crybaby you are.
Another funny thing is that you post the same crap as Dendra and you're trying to insult me that I'm like him, ROFL.
"GOD FORBID PEOPLE POST SOMETHING REASONABLE INSTEAD OF WHINING!"
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WOW can you all STFU for a while? I think I hear your moms calling... must be diner time. FUCK.
Its like a goddamn preschool class...
Just agree to disagree, go beat off to some hot Korean girl porn, and play some more video games.
Im sick of peoples immature arguments. Totally nonconstructive.
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Especially considering the fact that every single argument has been used so many times already. I cringe now every time I read someone posting something along the lines of: "If a good interface is bad, why not make a very bad interface [/sarcasm]". It's almost as if the people using that line of thought think it is actually a viable argument T_T.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On June 26 2007 12:39 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2007 10:02 Hawk wrote:On June 26 2007 02:01 lololol wrote:On June 26 2007 01:26 EscPlan9 wrote:
To everyone who's concerned about the macro/micro being easier for players, how about Starcraft 2 has a pointlessly terrible interface, so you can only select one unit at a time? That would require much more APM, which obviously means it would be a more fun and challenging game.
[/sarcasm] Totally agree, best idea ever! You should also have to press the hotkey 5 times to produce a unit, that would truly make STARCRAFT 2 GREAT(for retards). HAI GUYS, ANYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH LOLOLOL IN THE SLIGHTEST MUST CLEARLY BE A ReTARD!!! GOD FORBID YOU GIVE YOUR IMPUT ON WHAT YOU SEE!!! every post you make in the sc2 thread is flaming someone for having an opinion different than your own. its almost as annoying as that idiot dendra. seriously, calm the fuck down and shut up if youre going to flame instead of discuss. LOL, a retard got offended, how suprising! And now he follows me in the threads I post and tries to flame me... ROFL... it's damn obvious you're the one that needs to calm down and stfu, you're not discussing anything in any of your posts or back up yourself with anything reasonable, you're just whining like the little crybaby you are. Another funny thing is that you post the same crap as Dendra and you're trying to insult me that I'm like him, ROFL. "GOD FORBID PEOPLE POST SOMETHING REASONABLE INSTEAD OF WHINING!"
c-_-a-_-l-_-m d-_-o-_-w-_-n
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On June 18 2007 12:22 Hawk wrote:
Sweet, starcraft for retards -_-. Wave bye bye to macroing everyone
That was silly... Oov didn't get gosu macro because of fast hands. He's got them because of his amazing sense of timing. Same goes to savior.
~_____~ Seriously I'd like to see you be the nxt gosu, if it's a retard game.
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Rly, all the easier interface will allow us to elevate to a higher playing field, like strategy rather than poinjtlessly tapping away at our keyboard, which I find extremely mundane and uncreative.
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the changes seem logical enough, but at the same time macro is going to be flawless for the most part. you won't even have to worry about idle workers and creating alot of units will be done very easily and instantly. i think the difference is, at least with protoss, you can't queue units anymore so you still have to "time" when to make your stuff. it will be interesting to see how that actually plays out in real games.
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You can' t queue units anymore? Where did you come up with that? The toss still have the gateway and building 5 zealots should queue them.... But maybe I've missed something and I'm completely wrong. But yeah I'm not a fan of the mothership nor the marines with shields and the jetpack men with cowboy pistols. Couldn't they give them some sort of laser glove? Bane lings look like those bad guys from some movie I saw where some creatures would roll and then once they went over somebody only their skeleton was left. I can't remember the movie though.....
But we shall wait and see what happens
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On June 29 2007 19:20 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2007 12:22 Hawk wrote:
Sweet, starcraft for retards -_-. Wave bye bye to macroing everyone That was silly... Oov didn't get gosu macro because of fast hands. He's got them because of his amazing sense of timing. Same goes to savior. ~_____~ Seriously I'd like to see you be the nxt gosu, if it's a retard game.
Finally someone, who uses his brain for posting 
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EPT
