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On October 23 2019 20:18 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision Infestor/BL is a ZvP problem. Terran struggles atm because their builds are too easy for Zerg to read. I think the creep vision complaint is misguided, whenever creep spreads to the point of a virtual maphack, it's because the Zerg had too much freedom earlier in the game. Creep wasn't nearly as overpresent in early LotV or even HotS, when Zerg's early game was much weaker.
Scarlett was known for having amazing creep spread in HotS. Creep spreading used to be less common, but now all the pro Zergs have realized the power of having continuous vision on the map.
I do agree that Terran builds are too easy to read, but that's true in both TvP and TvZ. In either MUs, the only real scouting needed vs Terran is for, a) proxies, and b) whether its a mech or bio composition.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL
Rogue said Zerg OP.
Serral said Zerg lategame OP.
Special said Zerg OP.
So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine?
I don't know, Kev...
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On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev...
2 zergs 1 Terran, so Zerg players are more aware of the state of the game than other pros, maybe the best players are playing zerg. But if they're simply better it means they're totally wrong about zerg being OP, so they don't have the better understanding so zerg is actually OP but they stated it so they're the better players. Oh well.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 24 2019 16:53 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... 2 zergs 1 Terran, so Zerg players are more aware of the state of the game than other pros, maybe the best players are playing zerg. But if they're simply better it means they're totally wrong about zerg being OP, so they don't have the better understanding so zerg is actually OP but they stated it so they're the better players. Oh well.
That's the biggest point, 2 zergs... but well, what do they know, they just won some money and titles 
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Playing against Zerg is so frustrating, especially their sell, free units. You do perfectly and "boom", Nydus appears, you bleed to death.
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Imbalance tarnishes everything in the game, there's no ''this race is broken only in the lategame''. The race is either broken as a whole or balanced, it can't be partially balanced.
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On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev...
Are you sure those 3 are the only players who expressed their views about balance?
Also, maybe double-check what Serral said, and dont go off of what Wax put in the title of the article.
He said, right before the patch
”I think ZvT and ZvP late game, I would say if Zerg plays perfect, then Zerg should always win late-game pretty much. But with like the EMP buff and that kind of stuff, it's very easy to get caught off guard with your infestors, and the moment that happens you kind of auto-lose the game. Since you need to fungals to beat ghosts, and you kind of just need a couple of infestors, at least. I don't know, I don't think it's TOO bad, especially with the infestor nerf right now—I don't think we can rely on mass-infestors anymore in ZvP.”
Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Are you sure those 3 are the only players who expressed their views about balance? Also, maybe double-check what Serral said, and dont go off of what Wax put in the title of the article. He said, right before the patch ” I think ZvT and ZvP late game, I would say if Zerg plays perfect, then Zerg should always win late-game pretty much. But with like the EMP buff and that kind of stuff, it's very easy to get caught off guard with your infestors, and the moment that happens you kind of auto-lose the game. Since you need to fungals to beat ghosts, and you kind of just need a couple of infestors, at least. I don't know, I don't think it's TOO bad, especially with the infestor nerf right now—I don't think we can rely on mass-infestors anymore in ZvP.” Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence
These 3 were published here on TL so common TL reader should know it(at leat common SC2 TL reader )
I rather simplified Serral, but hey, let's be fair. If both players play perfect(I know) and one of them has guaranteed a victory, doesn't that mean the situation isn't balanced and the said player is playing an OP race.
And yeah, as I wrote, I know it's hard to play perfectly all the time.
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On October 24 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Are you sure those 3 are the only players who expressed their views about balance? Also, maybe double-check what Serral said, and dont go off of what Wax put in the title of the article. He said, right before the patch ” I think ZvT and ZvP late game, I would say if Zerg plays perfect, then Zerg should always win late-game pretty much. But with like the EMP buff and that kind of stuff, it's very easy to get caught off guard with your infestors, and the moment that happens you kind of auto-lose the game. Since you need to fungals to beat ghosts, and you kind of just need a couple of infestors, at least. I don't know, I don't think it's TOO bad, especially with the infestor nerf right now—I don't think we can rely on mass-infestors anymore in ZvP.” Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence These 3 were published here on TL so common TL reader should know it(at leat common SC2 TL reader ) I rather simplified Serral, but hey, let's be fair. If both players play perfect(I know) and one of them has guaranteed a victory, doesn't that mean the situation isn't balanced and the said player is playing an OP race. And yeah, as I wrote, I know it's hard to play perfectly all the time.
Oh please, like you havent heard or read every player interview for the past couple, year, cmon man :D
But yeah, strange how you never saw these kind of articles about Terran, ever.
I for one wouldnt have minded a Nydus nerf a month ago, it really isnt that big of a deal, it would maybe knock down ZvP a couple of percentages, but not much else. but maybe the masses would be less riled up, and personally i wouldnt mind seeing less nydus in the midgame, as a viewer. As a casual player I dont use them.
Who knows, maybe it would have been enough to push Showtime over the edge today, we ll never know.
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On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence
SC2 pros suggesting even the slightest advantage for their race usually relates to a serious balance issue. I'd bet Dark is still arguing Z is the worst. What Serral admitted is still a shock by sc2 standards, what Rogue said is unheard of.
Serral saying "there's still a way that zerg can lose to terran" doesn't help the case that much either.
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On October 24 2019 23:18 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence SC2 pros suggesting even the slightest advantage for their race usually relates to a serious balance issue. I'd bet Dark is still arguing Z is the worst. What Serral admitted is still a shock by sc2 standards, what Rogue said is unheard of. Serral saying "there's still a way that zerg can lose to terran" doesn't help the case that much either.
yeah, true about other pros never admitting to anything, although in the past players werent really encouraged to talk about balance like it s been happening for the past couple of years, and TL dindt write articles about cases when pros did comment about it.
Also, Special has been balance-whining for like 15 years straight, but suddenly his opinion on the matter is very relevant.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 24 2019 23:18 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence SC2 pros suggesting even the slightest advantage for their race usually relates to a serious balance issue. I'd bet Dark is still arguing Z is the worst. What Serral admitted is still a shock by sc2 standards, what Rogue said is unheard of. Serral saying "there's still a way that zerg can lose to terran" doesn't help the case that much either.
And it hapenned closely to each other which is another thing. it's not like Serral saying it in January and Rogue in September
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On October 24 2019 23:26 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 23:18 Fango wrote:On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence SC2 pros suggesting even the slightest advantage for their race usually relates to a serious balance issue. I'd bet Dark is still arguing Z is the worst. What Serral admitted is still a shock by sc2 standards, what Rogue said is unheard of. Serral saying "there's still a way that zerg can lose to terran" doesn't help the case that much either. Also, Special has been balance-whining for like 15 years straight, but suddenly his opinion on the matter is very relevant.
suddenly his opinion is justified in the matter more like.
Although you have to feel for him, if I was a foreign terran I'd have been whining this whole time as well
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On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine?
Zerg didn't win a single gsl in nearly five years and nobody cared. Why should one want Zerg to be nerfed now that they start to win a bit?
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Canada8988 Posts
On October 26 2019 02:43 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine?
Zerg didn't win a single gsl in nearly five years and nobody cared. Why should one want Zerg to be nerfed now that they start to win a bit?
Well soO and ByuL went 0-7 in GSL final so that helped quite a bit. Also I know we're suppose to pretend it never happen but Life won a GSL in 2015
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These opinions from pro players seems to adress a design rework of the Zerg Race..
Are they suddenly tired to have to stay out of the creep ? obvious...
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Northern Ireland23755 Posts
On October 26 2019 02:43 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine?
Zerg didn't win a single gsl in nearly five years and nobody cared. Why should one want Zerg to be nerfed now that they start to win a bit?
I’m pretty sure people were raising the lack of a GSL quite consistently.
Not that Zerg was always in a good shape over that span, if any race benefits the least from the prep format it’s Zerg.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 26 2019 02:43 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine?
Zerg didn't win a single gsl in nearly five years and nobody cared. Why should one want Zerg to be nerfed now that they start to win a bit?
Yeah, 4 consecutive 2nd places don't matter at all. Because only victories count, 2nd place is just the best loser! FFS
(edit> to be fair just 3, the first soo's 2nd place was in 2013 )
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Foreign Terran never won a WCS circuit for a long time. In fact, there was only one Terran at most in semi-final in any circuit, and only Special manage to reach final once since 2017. The last time a Terran reached WCS final before Special was back to 2016, and he is Polt, a Korean.
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On October 26 2019 07:57 pzlama333 wrote:
Foreign Terran never won a WCS circuit for a long time. In fact, there was only one Terran at most in semi-final in any circuit, and only Special manage to reach final once since 2017. The last time a Terran reached WCS final before Special was back to 2016, and he is Polt, a Korean.
Foreigners can only shine when Zerg has an advantage.
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EPT
