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On October 24 2019 00:33 BerserkSword wrote:
The anti-zerg whine is out of control.
They are on the verge of heavily nerfing the infestor and the brood lord and now some people already have creep in the crosshairs of the nerf gun.
Both the queen and creep were nerfed after blizzcon 2018.
How about before destroying a race (like what happened to Protoss) you give some time for the current changes (infestor and brood lord nerfs) to settle?
I totally agree with you there; don't forget Nydus will be addressed too.
Whiners already got Protoss nerfed to the ground, they will maybe stop when we are back in GoMTvT era once more and "perfect balance" will be achieved.
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On October 24 2019 00:59 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 00:33 BerserkSword wrote:
The anti-zerg whine is out of control.
They are on the verge of heavily nerfing the infestor and the brood lord and now some people already have creep in the crosshairs of the nerf gun.
Both the queen and creep were nerfed after blizzcon 2018.
How about before destroying a race (like what happened to Protoss) you give some time for the current changes (infestor and brood lord nerfs) to settle? I totally agree with you there; don't forget Nydus will be addressed too. Whiners already got Protoss nerfed to the ground, they will maybe stop when we are back in GoMTvT era once more and "perfect balance" will be achieved.
It's a shame WCSZvZ era doesn't have the same ring to it
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The sad part is a lot of pros saw this coming. Zergs were being quiet and letting the Protoss hate get them nerfed while Blizz mostly ignored nerfing Zerg.
Ty mentioned it and a few others did as well.
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On October 23 2019 23:32 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s such a combination of factors, Zerg scouting potency is more pronounced because of the ‘cripple them before lategame’ timer. It’s interesting how it segues in with what Special was saying about the importance of prepped stuff and how Zerg tends to require it the least. He mentioned Inno’s styles from previous games and metas where he just came at you with bio mine pushes and not a great deal of trickery at all. I’ll be very surprised if a Zerg doesn’t win Blizzcon. They’re strong at present anyway, maps are good for them and the format is great for them as well. Bo5s in groups with a second chance if you lose a series, gets pretty tough for the other races, if it were Bo3 at that stage I could see more Zergs getting put out at that stage. It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. OTOH what can you do as a zerg to stop scouting? You can't just block the "hop in" points, you can't deny the hallucinations and you certainly can't deny the shades. They have to be the race with the least pressure on the preparation. IMO (maybe I'm missing something) Maybe they need to redesign the queen/inject/creep mechanic, but I don't see that happening, because the ability to create 20 drones at once(or 20 units) is IMO wrong. Should be more BW-ish in this terms.
Of course Zerg needs the ability to create MANY units at once, otherwise you could force Z to all-in or die by only sacrificing your army on killing workers, because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. So it’s not wrong, it’s completely fair and makes sense since Zerg is a reactive race. Z needs the ability to react quickly because of the drone or army decision. P can warp in 20 units in Z base AND make probes at the same time. This doesn’t sound wrong to you, huh?
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Great interview. Well done Wax, as usual.
Loved Special's insights on the role of prep time in terms of Terran's success rate.
Also enjoyed the discussion on the evolution of single-build players to many build players (or to face extinction).
Any Zergs facing Special at BlizzCon had best bone up on their early battlecruiser defense. I'd be stunned if he didn't try to mix that in.
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because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do.
What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other?
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On October 24 2019 02:29 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other?
Larva? If you make 20 drones, you have 20 less larva for units? Have you ever played Zerg?
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On October 24 2019 02:32 Majick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 02:29 Athenau wrote:because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other? Larva? If you make 20 drones, you have 20 less larva for units?
If you have 20 larva, there's nothing preventing you from spending 10 on units and 10 on drones.
Given the same total production capacity, unified production is always an advantage, not a hindrance.
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On October 24 2019 02:34 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 02:32 Majick wrote:On October 24 2019 02:29 Athenau wrote:because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other? Larva? If you make 20 drones, you have 20 less larva for units? If you have 20 larva, there's nothing preventing you from spending 10 on units and 10 on drones. Given the same total production capacity, unified production is always an advantage, not a hindrance.
Oh ok, you just took one sentence out of context and try to be a smart ass now. It's fine, I will not argue with you. Intelligent people will understand this is not what I meant.
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Only smart people can understand him !
Ehhhh... I don't think so. I think if we had time, like GSL, it would be easier to beat people like that. Zerg benefits the most from tournaments like [the WCS Circuit.]
That's the problem. And people are blaming Maru...
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On October 24 2019 02:37 Majick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 02:34 Athenau wrote:On October 24 2019 02:32 Majick wrote:On October 24 2019 02:29 Athenau wrote:because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other? Larva? If you make 20 drones, you have 20 less larva for units? If you have 20 larva, there's nothing preventing you from spending 10 on units and 10 on drones. Given the same total production capacity, unified production is always an advantage, not a hindrance. Oh ok, you just took one sentence out of context and try to be a smart ass now. It's fine, I will not argue with you. Intelligent people will understand this is not what I meant.
Intelligent people should know how to communicate clearly.
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On October 24 2019 03:19 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 02:37 Majick wrote:On October 24 2019 02:34 Athenau wrote:On October 24 2019 02:32 Majick wrote:On October 24 2019 02:29 Athenau wrote:because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other? Larva? If you make 20 drones, you have 20 less larva for units? If you have 20 larva, there's nothing preventing you from spending 10 on units and 10 on drones. Given the same total production capacity, unified production is always an advantage, not a hindrance. Oh ok, you just took one sentence out of context and try to be a smart ass now. It's fine, I will not argue with you. Intelligent people will understand this is not what I meant. Intelligent people should know how to communicate clearly.
Well, if that makes me dumb let it be, I am fine with that. You still have nothing to bring to the discussion aside from nitpicking on one sentence from my post which you quoted out of context.
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On October 24 2019 00:59 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 00:33 BerserkSword wrote:
The anti-zerg whine is out of control.
They are on the verge of heavily nerfing the infestor and the brood lord and now some people already have creep in the crosshairs of the nerf gun.
Both the queen and creep were nerfed after blizzcon 2018.
How about before destroying a race (like what happened to Protoss) you give some time for the current changes (infestor and brood lord nerfs) to settle? I totally agree with you there; don't forget Nydus will be addressed too. Whiners already got Protoss nerfed to the ground, they will maybe stop when we are back in GoMTvT era once more and "perfect balance" will be achieved.
Yeah, if only those pesky whiners didn't get Terran nerfed to the ground. Then Protoss, now Zerg?!
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Special always gives great interviews
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Man, Special really won't let go of the creep thing lol.
I do hope they rethink the overlord speed buff though. The game has always been balanced around T/P trying to put pressure on against a reactive zerg with limited information. Overlord speed has always been viable but abusable due to the expense. Balance aside, it really limits build diversity and takes away a lot of tension from the early game, and LotV does not have a particularly long early game in the first place.
Also, I assume Special is talking about that 2-base mech timing he did vs TY at Blizzcon. That really was a sick build, kinda crazy that we never really saw it again.
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On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure.
Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals?
Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra.
"Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation"
- 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches
LOL
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The Z haters in here are hilarious, guarantee they had no problem when Maru won 4 GSLs in a row.
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On October 24 2019 11:54 mierin wrote:
The Z haters in here are hilarious, guarantee they had no problem when Maru won 4 GSLs in a row.
That's completely different. He was the only Terran doing well at that time and really since then as well. Meanwhile Zerg has at least 4 players who are favorites vs basically anyone in the world besides each other.
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On October 23 2019 20:18 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision Infestor/BL is a ZvP problem. Terran struggles atm because their builds are too easy for Zerg to read. I think the creep vision complaint is misguided, whenever creep spreads to the point of a virtual maphack, it's because the Zerg had too much freedom earlier in the game. Creep wasn't nearly as overpresent in early LotV or even HotS, when Zerg's early game was much weaker.
Terran struggles because Zerg can react to anything really well, early mid late does not matter, now they got the ovie speed they made something that was already pretty easy even easier.
Zerg is the best reactionary race by far and can also do insane techswitches and the hardest race to read.
Current Zerg has accumulated into 1 race being strongest in every single phase of the game which has never happened in SC2 history.
And you can see the result and you can enjoy watching them dominate until Blizzard understands the game is actually the most broken its ever been.
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EPT
