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4 Posts
Interview conducted by WaxTL.net interviewed #4 Circuit seed  SpeCial ahead of the 2019 Global Finals, talking about the value of GSL-style preparation™, sharing strategies with TY, and how he prepares for BlizzCon. Also, just a liiitttle chat about balance. Just a little. I promise.*This interview has been edited and condensed.Wax: You've been very good at previous BlizzCons, advancing past the group stage in 2017 and 2018. Do you think you can do it again?SpeCial: Yeah, yes last two times I advanced. One time I advanced in first, second time I advanced in second so, maybe, I hope I can do the same again. I mean, I'm starting to play better right now [note: interview was conducted shortly after Super Tournament II], and that's good because the tournament is not so far away. So if I can maintain... if I can maintain my pace and keep [improving], I think I can do it. It's not... I'm not going to say I'm going to advance 100%, but I'm always going to try my hardest. I don't know! I think there's a chance. You always say you play better when you have time to prepare for specific opponents like in the Global Finals.Yes, that's the reason I think I always do well in the groups. Not only the groups, but even the first match. For the round-of-eight, there's also like, five days to prepare for that match. For example, the first year I beat Miko [Elazer]. Year two, I lost to Stats 1-3, but those games were actually insanely close. Like, the result doesn't tell the story. So I feel like, if I at least have some days to prepare, I think I can do well, regardless of who I play. How specific is your preparation? A build or two for every map?Yeah, that's pretty much it. Every map I have a build, or have a response to what he does, or what I think he will do. That's exactly how I prepare. Has your experience from previous BlizzCons made you feel like you can start planning ahead for the later rounds where there's no time to prep?No, I don't like that. I think that's a bad mentality to have. Because, if you lose in the group, it doesn't matter what you've prepared for the rest. I think it depends on the format, of course. Because, not to s*** talk, but let's say I play WCS, and I'm playing someone that's not a top Zerg. Then, of course, I can save stuff. But here, everyone is good, you know? Does the change to best-of-five it harder for you this year?Yeah, I think it's harder for Terran right now to win a BO5 than a BO3, but it's not impossible. How do I put it... Right now, the map pool is not very favored for Terran, so you're going to end up with some maps that are hard to prepare on. And BO5 is just in general, it tends to... normally favor like the better player, no matter what? I don't know, it's hard to explain. But it's still possible. I think it's worse in general for everyone that's not super godly mechanically like Maru or Serral. It's bad, but it's not like you can't win, that's not how it works. You can still win. Speaking of mechanics monsters, what did you think when you saw players like INnoVation or Maru just bringing a couple of builds to a series and bulldozing guys with mechanics?Nowadays, actually it's rare to see that. I don't think I've seen that anymore, it's too easy to blind counter right now. They try to mix stuff up nowadays. For example, if you saw TY play the Super Tournament, he basically mixed his up his build every single game. I feel that's the biggest strength that I have right now. That's also why, for example, Maru won GSL's. He mixed up everything, and he played well. Yeah, but TY was always like that. INnoVation has been notable for just playing the same build.That was like, Heart of the Swarm, was that? He'd play Widow Mine against Zerg and he'd never lose. It was different back then. And also, people were worse at preparing back then, I think people are so much better now. Like, I like to put Zest up as an example. Before last year, he was still playing like one build every match-up, and he was so good on ladder, but he used to do really bad in tournaments. Then, he started mixing stuff up, and he got like GSL finals, he went to BlizzCon. You know? That's one of the players who started mixing stuff up and started getting better results. How closely do you collaborate with TY on strategies these days?Consider that I just gave him like three builds against herO [in the Super Tournament], I would say really close. I was actually surprised he went mech, I didn't know he would go mech. But I gave him the openings. I just told him herO is weak against proxy because he always goes like one base. Was the late mech a surprise?We used to do that, it's not that bad. The problem is it only works on map like... It was very good on, for example, New Repugnancy or Kairos, because those maps are small. The smallest map right now is Winter's Gate, I would say. It makes sense on that map, but if you try on a bigger map, it doesn't really work. Protoss is really rich and there's no place to attack for you. How do you discuss strategies? I know you have some decent game-related Korean.His English is good enough now, he studies English. It's not super fluent, but it's good enough. And I know a lot of Korean game stuff, so it works. Are you surprised at how historically bad Koreans have been at scouting the foreigners and their strats? There are some exceptions, but it's felt like you could do a ladder strat and catch someone off guard.Yeah, I think it's dumb. I think there's no reason not to do the research. You can always learn from anyone, no matter who, you know? For example in BlizzCon 2017, the build I used to beat TY was from a 5.9K player. I played on ladder, I almost lost to it, and I thought, I can make this better. And I did, and it was a good build, man. How do you feel about the progress you've made as a player since 2017?I think after 2016 was s*** for me, at the beginning of 2017 I told myself I would go to Korea, and if I failed I would probably stop playing. So after that change of mind, I think my results have been mostly stable. So I'm very happy about that. Any frustration about the pace of improvement slowing down, or are you just happy to be consistent?Of course I would like to win, obviously. Who doesn't want to win, right? I think being stable is just as important as winning. If you're not stable, at least, you're not making any money so it's not worth it. Obviously I want to win, and I always aim to win. But if I can't win, at least I want to be stable. I guess Serral existing is the biggest reason other players can't win.Ehhhh... I don't think so. I think if we had time, like GSL, it would be easier to beat people like that. Zerg benefits the most from tournaments like [the WCS Circuit.] That's a thing you've said for a while. Terran benefits the most from being able to prepare.Yes, I've been saying that before Serral was dominant. I said that when Neeb was winning everything, remember back in 2017? I always said like, if I had time to prepare I could win this tournament, but... I mean, it's not an excuse, but it's just the way I feel. If I win one day, great. But I'll still think if you can prepare as Terran, it's just miles easier and better for you overall. I mean, I'm not saying if I prepare I'm going to beat Serral every time, that's not what I mean. I'm probably gonna put up a better fight than when we played in the finals. Even though I lost 4-0, I feel like I played good in some games. But I feel like if I had time to prepare, I could make the score at least closer. Let's talk about the Zerg is OP in late-game meme. You seem to think they're just OP in general?The Overlord speed buff gave Zerg the option get free intel basically, and even if they don't get it... It's not like Terran can know if they're getting the OL-speed upgrade or not, because there's so many Zerg openings. Even if they don't get it, it already crosses out a lot builds for Terran, just because if they get overlord speed—ripperino, not good, you know? And also, I feel like doing damage early on against Zerg nowadays is very hard because of maps. Just the way Zerg players got better at defending stuff. I feel like you always enter the mid-game in a disadvantage you know. I feel like, there should be some stuff changed about the way Zerg works. Some drastic change, I think. I don't think it's particularly fair that creep gives vision, for example. I think that's really dumb. And this map pool is particularly bad?Yeah it's terrible. It's just big. There's no good pushing spots. They're just wide open, there's no real harassment options, kind of. I think it's just not good for Terran in this scenario. When one of your best maps is Thunderbird, you know something is wrong. That map wasn't event hat good last season. What's your goal for the global finals?As I always say, my goal is to win, but I take it round-by-round. The first thing is advance from your f***ing group. If I advance from the group, I'll think about round-of-eight. But my goal is always to win, doesn't matter, the tournaments I really care about, I always try to win. Any final comments to your fans?As I always say, I'm trying my best here. I really try to do well for myself and for my fans, obviously. Keep the good vibes, and the Doritos will come, I promise. Well I don't promise, because I never promise. But they will come.
You can follow SpeCial on Twitter at @SpeCialsc2 for quality Pokemon and StarCraft II content. SpeCial will play in his WCS Global Finals group with Dark, ShoWTimE, and soO on Thursday, Oct 24 3:00am GMT (GMT+00:00)
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Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision
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On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision
Infestor/BL is a ZvP problem. Terran struggles atm because their builds are too easy for Zerg to read.
I think the creep vision complaint is misguided, whenever creep spreads to the point of a virtual maphack, it's because the Zerg had too much freedom earlier in the game. Creep wasn't nearly as overpresent in early LotV or even HotS, when Zerg's early game was much weaker.
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On October 23 2019 20:18 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision Infestor/BL is a ZvP problem. Terran struggles atm because their builds are too easy for Zerg to read. I think the creep vision complaint is misguided, whenever creep spreads to the point of a virtual maphack, it's because the Zerg had too much freedom earlier in the game. Creep wasn't nearly as overpresent in early LotV or even HotS, when Zerg's early game was much weaker.
So terran struggles early and mid game because their builds and pushes are easy to scout and predict. Then you say creep spread is not a problem because terran should kill or cripple zerg early....
So first you state early terran attacks are weak and inneffective and then you say terran needs to pressure early?
Something needs to change, either zergs power in mid-late game or terrans ability to pressure/harass early game, either of those would work.
The problem with creep also is the map pool right now, even if you do a mid game push you will need to step far onto creep to do any damage. Its not only late game that creep has gotten a bit too poweful.
Also because the maps are so open pure ling bane kills absolutely everything terran can build that isn't in the skies. Zerglings and banelings are simply OP in this mappool and tanks are crap
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The thing I remember most about off racing as Zerg is the feeling that I had a map hack on. Zerg's vision and scouting is that insane. Couldn't agree more with special about his comments.
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On October 23 2019 20:32 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 20:18 Ej_ wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision Infestor/BL is a ZvP problem. Terran struggles atm because their builds are too easy for Zerg to read. I think the creep vision complaint is misguided, whenever creep spreads to the point of a virtual maphack, it's because the Zerg had too much freedom earlier in the game. Creep wasn't nearly as overpresent in early LotV or even HotS, when Zerg's early game was much weaker. So terran struggles early and mid game because their builds and pushes are easy to scout and predict. Then you say creep spread is not a problem because terran should kill or cripple zerg early.... So first you state early terran attacks are weak and inneffective and then you say terran needs to pressure early? Something needs to change, either zergs power in mid-late game or terrans ability to pressure/harass early game, either of those would work.
Yes, I think Zerg has much more freedom in early game than they used to, whether it's because they can make drones and queens over combat units, or scout and prepare for every offensive play (which didn't use to be a thing, anybody remember when Zerg started 1/1 significantly after Terran in 2015?).
You could tackle the strentgh of creep here, but IMHO the real culprit is the combination of queen's early game+ease of overlord scouting.
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On October 23 2019 20:55 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 20:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 23 2019 20:18 Ej_ wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision Infestor/BL is a ZvP problem. Terran struggles atm because their builds are too easy for Zerg to read. I think the creep vision complaint is misguided, whenever creep spreads to the point of a virtual maphack, it's because the Zerg had too much freedom earlier in the game. Creep wasn't nearly as overpresent in early LotV or even HotS, when Zerg's early game was much weaker. So terran struggles early and mid game because their builds and pushes are easy to scout and predict. Then you say creep spread is not a problem because terran should kill or cripple zerg early.... So first you state early terran attacks are weak and inneffective and then you say terran needs to pressure early? Something needs to change, either zergs power in mid-late game or terrans ability to pressure/harass early game, either of those would work. Yes, I think Zerg has much more freedom in early game than they used, whether it's because they can make drones and queens over combat units, or scout and prepare for every offensive play (which didn't use to be a thing, anybody remember when Zerg started 1/1 significantly after Terran in 2015?). You could tackle the strentgh of creep here, but IMHO the real culprit is the combination of queen's early game+ease of overlord scouting.
Yeah you are right, however the question is if the state of the game from 2015 is possible to bring back with lotv new economic model that ***** the balance very badly. Early game pressure is much worse in lotv than earlier version of the game that is just how it is, how to balance it so zerg still has chinks in its armor while at the same time is able to get into the mid game even (which means ahead 1 base) is very hard.
If we want the matchup to be balanced like that a year down the line than we probably need to nerf zerg so badly their winrate will plummet for the next 4-6 months while struggling to adapt to the nerfs. The state of lotv started out decently balanced early-mid-late game wise but the more time zerg got to improve the more imbalanced it got.
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"because there's so many Zerg openings"
wait, wat
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Northern Ireland25960 Posts
On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision
It’s such a combination of factors, Zerg scouting potency is more pronounced because of the ‘cripple them before lategame’ timer.
It’s interesting how it segues in with what Special was saying about the importance of prepped stuff and how Zerg tends to require it the least. He mentioned Inno’s styles from previous games and metas where he just came at you with bio mine pushes and not a great deal of trickery at all.
I’ll be very surprised if a Zerg doesn’t win Blizzcon. They’re strong at present anyway, maps are good for them and the format is great for them as well.
Bo5s in groups with a second chance if you lose a series, gets pretty tough for the other races, if it were Bo3 at that stage I could see more Zergs getting put out at that stage.
It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure.
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zerg vs zerg in finnal is so common in wcs, people take it as a default.
now KR zerg is dominating KR
And I can say if Dark was not beaten by Rouge, not a P or T player can stop him.
In highest level matches, only zerg beat zerg, in CTC best zerg means best team.Zerg always win, in all kind of ways. Top terran can be cannon rushed, but zerg? no! Error tolerance is not same level.
So is that all P&T players a dumb?All smart players choose to be zerg? or just zerg op?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s such a combination of factors, Zerg scouting potency is more pronounced because of the ‘cripple them before lategame’ timer. It’s interesting how it segues in with what Special was saying about the importance of prepped stuff and how Zerg tends to require it the least. He mentioned Inno’s styles from previous games and metas where he just came at you with bio mine pushes and not a great deal of trickery at all. I’ll be very surprised if a Zerg doesn’t win Blizzcon. They’re strong at present anyway, maps are good for them and the format is great for them as well. Bo5s in groups with a second chance if you lose a series, gets pretty tough for the other races, if it were Bo3 at that stage I could see more Zergs getting put out at that stage. It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure.
OTOH what can you do as a zerg to stop scouting? You can't just block the "hop in" points, you can't deny the hallucinations and you certainly can't deny the shades. They have to be the race with the least pressure on the preparation. IMO (maybe I'm missing something)
Maybe they need to redesign the queen/inject/creep mechanic, but I don't see that happening, because the ability to create 20 drones at once(or 20 units) is IMO wrong. Should be more BW-ish in this terms.
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Nice interview. Nothing really new from Special, but lots of interesting details.
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Sounds like Pro-Gamer fatigue setting in, Hope you at least make the Ro8 SpeCial.
No comments from here on the Zerg stuff.
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Good interview! What was the most interesting to me was his comment about using some 5.9k build in an improved version to actually beat TY. Really shows that there is still some creativity and one could potentially find it anywhere. Brings back memories of the time where some guy on reddit said why not just use sensor towers against blink allins and TY actually did it once :D
A lot of balance talk here as well, bad mappool but also thoughts about more inherent zerg design.
If we only care about the queen and creep mechanic situation i think the problem simply lies in zerg being able to build a lot of them only for creep + defense. Their whole energy will be used just for creep in most cases because there is barely any need to transfuse them while defending. So if we want less creep we have a few options.
Either we simply increase the energy requirement of the ability, or we make the queen use energy in other ways so there is less for creep. How one could do that? Either by making it so the queen has to transfuse more often, which would only really be the case if they were less tanky and thus needed the healing more often, or if we say remove the autoattack and give the queen an oracle like attack which uses energy. That way any harass you want to defend with a lot of queens actually results into less creep later on. Not sure how viable any of this is, but it's potentially something to think about.
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Northern Ireland25960 Posts
On October 23 2019 23:32 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s such a combination of factors, Zerg scouting potency is more pronounced because of the ‘cripple them before lategame’ timer. It’s interesting how it segues in with what Special was saying about the importance of prepped stuff and how Zerg tends to require it the least. He mentioned Inno’s styles from previous games and metas where he just came at you with bio mine pushes and not a great deal of trickery at all. I’ll be very surprised if a Zerg doesn’t win Blizzcon. They’re strong at present anyway, maps are good for them and the format is great for them as well. Bo5s in groups with a second chance if you lose a series, gets pretty tough for the other races, if it were Bo3 at that stage I could see more Zergs getting put out at that stage. It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. OTOH what can you do as a zerg to stop scouting? You can't just block the "hop in" points, you can't deny the hallucinations and you certainly can't deny the shades. They have to be the race with the least pressure on the preparation. IMO (maybe I'm missing something) Maybe they need to redesign the queen/inject/creep mechanic, but I don't see that happening, because the ability to create 20 drones at once(or 20 units) is IMO wrong. Should be more BW-ish in this terms.
I think in theory it’s fine if Zerg can explode in economy if they defend well and expand out on the map, with their creep and out-trade you. Metas considered good, usually featuring ling/bling/muta in TvZ anyway tend to fit that pattern.
A problem of the current meta is that Zerg are getting that eco going while transitioning to compositions that are incredibly cost-efficient as well. They have a better economy with compositions that trade way beyond their cost, which is a rather bad combination IMO.
You have a race that currently basically requires tailored builds to slow down, with the mechanic to mass drone, whose scouting capacity has been buffed recently, with maps that suit it and whose lategame comps are insane.
Individually these elements aren’t broken IMO but taken all together and it gets rather dicey indeed.
Personally I feel that if Zerg had some of these but it manifested in big swarms of low/mid tier units swamping opponents off an eco advantage that they’ve earned that feels like how Zerg ‘should’ play.
Any talk of balance aside it’s jarring that Zerg don’t fit their racial character.
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I'm so glad Special said what he said about creep giving vision.
Personally I couldn't agree more - I feel this is the single biggest problem with Zergs "imba", ever since I started playing more Z.
Infestors being infestors doesn't help, but the fact that Zerg can so easily and so reliably get himself into good spots mid to late game is mostly due to easy and basically free scouting, mostly in the forms of creep tumors and OL speed.
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amazing what a 25/25 decrease in ovi speed research cost can achieve!
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Russian Federation400 Posts
Remove creep vision - what a great idea!! I've never thought about it, keeping the vision for active tumors only makes complete sense. They should use overlords or zerglings as static observers.
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The anti-zerg whine is out of control.
They are on the verge of heavily nerfing the infestor and the brood lord and now some people already have creep in the crosshairs of the nerf gun.
Both the queen and creep were nerfed after blizzcon 2018.
How about before destroying a race (like what happened to Protoss) you give some time for the current changes (infestor and brood lord nerfs) to settle?
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On October 24 2019 00:33 BerserkSword wrote:
The anti-zerg whine is out of control.
They are on the verge of heavily nerfing the infestor and the brood lord and now some people already have creep in the crosshairs of the nerf gun.
Both the queen and creep were nerfed after blizzcon 2018.
How about before destroying a race (like what happened to Protoss) you give some time for the current changes (infestor and brood lord nerfs) to settle?
I totally agree with you there; don't forget Nydus will be addressed too.
Whiners already got Protoss nerfed to the ground, they will maybe stop when we are back in GoMTvT era once more and "perfect balance" will be achieved.
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On October 24 2019 00:59 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 00:33 BerserkSword wrote:
The anti-zerg whine is out of control.
They are on the verge of heavily nerfing the infestor and the brood lord and now some people already have creep in the crosshairs of the nerf gun.
Both the queen and creep were nerfed after blizzcon 2018.
How about before destroying a race (like what happened to Protoss) you give some time for the current changes (infestor and brood lord nerfs) to settle? I totally agree with you there; don't forget Nydus will be addressed too. Whiners already got Protoss nerfed to the ground, they will maybe stop when we are back in GoMTvT era once more and "perfect balance" will be achieved.
It's a shame WCSZvZ era doesn't have the same ring to it
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The sad part is a lot of pros saw this coming. Zergs were being quiet and letting the Protoss hate get them nerfed while Blizz mostly ignored nerfing Zerg.
Ty mentioned it and a few others did as well.
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On October 23 2019 23:32 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s such a combination of factors, Zerg scouting potency is more pronounced because of the ‘cripple them before lategame’ timer. It’s interesting how it segues in with what Special was saying about the importance of prepped stuff and how Zerg tends to require it the least. He mentioned Inno’s styles from previous games and metas where he just came at you with bio mine pushes and not a great deal of trickery at all. I’ll be very surprised if a Zerg doesn’t win Blizzcon. They’re strong at present anyway, maps are good for them and the format is great for them as well. Bo5s in groups with a second chance if you lose a series, gets pretty tough for the other races, if it were Bo3 at that stage I could see more Zergs getting put out at that stage. It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. OTOH what can you do as a zerg to stop scouting? You can't just block the "hop in" points, you can't deny the hallucinations and you certainly can't deny the shades. They have to be the race with the least pressure on the preparation. IMO (maybe I'm missing something) Maybe they need to redesign the queen/inject/creep mechanic, but I don't see that happening, because the ability to create 20 drones at once(or 20 units) is IMO wrong. Should be more BW-ish in this terms.
Of course Zerg needs the ability to create MANY units at once, otherwise you could force Z to all-in or die by only sacrificing your army on killing workers, because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. So it’s not wrong, it’s completely fair and makes sense since Zerg is a reactive race. Z needs the ability to react quickly because of the drone or army decision. P can warp in 20 units in Z base AND make probes at the same time. This doesn’t sound wrong to you, huh?
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Great interview. Well done Wax, as usual.
Loved Special's insights on the role of prep time in terms of Terran's success rate.
Also enjoyed the discussion on the evolution of single-build players to many build players (or to face extinction).
Any Zergs facing Special at BlizzCon had best bone up on their early battlecruiser defense. I'd be stunned if he didn't try to mix that in.
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because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do.
What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other?
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On October 24 2019 02:29 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other?
Larva? If you make 20 drones, you have 20 less larva for units? Have you ever played Zerg?
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On October 24 2019 02:32 Majick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 02:29 Athenau wrote:because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other? Larva? If you make 20 drones, you have 20 less larva for units?
If you have 20 larva, there's nothing preventing you from spending 10 on units and 10 on drones.
Given the same total production capacity, unified production is always an advantage, not a hindrance.
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On October 24 2019 02:34 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 02:32 Majick wrote:On October 24 2019 02:29 Athenau wrote:because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other? Larva? If you make 20 drones, you have 20 less larva for units? If you have 20 larva, there's nothing preventing you from spending 10 on units and 10 on drones. Given the same total production capacity, unified production is always an advantage, not a hindrance.
Oh ok, you just took one sentence out of context and try to be a smart ass now. It's fine, I will not argue with you. Intelligent people will understand this is not what I meant.
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Only smart people can understand him !
Ehhhh... I don't think so. I think if we had time, like GSL, it would be easier to beat people like that. Zerg benefits the most from tournaments like [the WCS Circuit.]
That's the problem. And people are blaming Maru...
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On October 24 2019 02:37 Majick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 02:34 Athenau wrote:On October 24 2019 02:32 Majick wrote:On October 24 2019 02:29 Athenau wrote:because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other? Larva? If you make 20 drones, you have 20 less larva for units? If you have 20 larva, there's nothing preventing you from spending 10 on units and 10 on drones. Given the same total production capacity, unified production is always an advantage, not a hindrance. Oh ok, you just took one sentence out of context and try to be a smart ass now. It's fine, I will not argue with you. Intelligent people will understand this is not what I meant.
Intelligent people should know how to communicate clearly.
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On October 24 2019 03:19 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 02:37 Majick wrote:On October 24 2019 02:34 Athenau wrote:On October 24 2019 02:32 Majick wrote:On October 24 2019 02:29 Athenau wrote:because Z uses the same building and larva to make all units so it’s always either Drones or units, you can’t make both at the same time as other races do. What? Is there some restriction forcing zerg players to spend all available larva on one or the other? Larva? If you make 20 drones, you have 20 less larva for units? If you have 20 larva, there's nothing preventing you from spending 10 on units and 10 on drones. Given the same total production capacity, unified production is always an advantage, not a hindrance. Oh ok, you just took one sentence out of context and try to be a smart ass now. It's fine, I will not argue with you. Intelligent people will understand this is not what I meant. Intelligent people should know how to communicate clearly.
Well, if that makes me dumb let it be, I am fine with that. You still have nothing to bring to the discussion aside from nitpicking on one sentence from my post which you quoted out of context.
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On October 24 2019 00:59 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 00:33 BerserkSword wrote:
The anti-zerg whine is out of control.
They are on the verge of heavily nerfing the infestor and the brood lord and now some people already have creep in the crosshairs of the nerf gun.
Both the queen and creep were nerfed after blizzcon 2018.
How about before destroying a race (like what happened to Protoss) you give some time for the current changes (infestor and brood lord nerfs) to settle? I totally agree with you there; don't forget Nydus will be addressed too. Whiners already got Protoss nerfed to the ground, they will maybe stop when we are back in GoMTvT era once more and "perfect balance" will be achieved.
Yeah, if only those pesky whiners didn't get Terran nerfed to the ground. Then Protoss, now Zerg?!
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Special always gives great interviews
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Man, Special really won't let go of the creep thing lol.
I do hope they rethink the overlord speed buff though. The game has always been balanced around T/P trying to put pressure on against a reactive zerg with limited information. Overlord speed has always been viable but abusable due to the expense. Balance aside, it really limits build diversity and takes away a lot of tension from the early game, and LotV does not have a particularly long early game in the first place.
Also, I assume Special is talking about that 2-base mech timing he did vs TY at Blizzcon. That really was a sick build, kinda crazy that we never really saw it again.
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On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure.
Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals?
Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra.
"Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation"
- 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches
LOL
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The Z haters in here are hilarious, guarantee they had no problem when Maru won 4 GSLs in a row.
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On October 24 2019 11:54 mierin wrote:
The Z haters in here are hilarious, guarantee they had no problem when Maru won 4 GSLs in a row.
That's completely different. He was the only Terran doing well at that time and really since then as well. Meanwhile Zerg has at least 4 players who are favorites vs basically anyone in the world besides each other.
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On October 23 2019 20:18 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision Infestor/BL is a ZvP problem. Terran struggles atm because their builds are too easy for Zerg to read. I think the creep vision complaint is misguided, whenever creep spreads to the point of a virtual maphack, it's because the Zerg had too much freedom earlier in the game. Creep wasn't nearly as overpresent in early LotV or even HotS, when Zerg's early game was much weaker.
Terran struggles because Zerg can react to anything really well, early mid late does not matter, now they got the ovie speed they made something that was already pretty easy even easier.
Zerg is the best reactionary race by far and can also do insane techswitches and the hardest race to read.
Current Zerg has accumulated into 1 race being strongest in every single phase of the game which has never happened in SC2 history.
And you can see the result and you can enjoy watching them dominate until Blizzard understands the game is actually the most broken its ever been.
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On October 23 2019 20:18 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision Infestor/BL is a ZvP problem. Terran struggles atm because their builds are too easy for Zerg to read. I think the creep vision complaint is misguided, whenever creep spreads to the point of a virtual maphack, it's because the Zerg had too much freedom earlier in the game. Creep wasn't nearly as overpresent in early LotV or even HotS, when Zerg's early game was much weaker.
Scarlett was known for having amazing creep spread in HotS. Creep spreading used to be less common, but now all the pro Zergs have realized the power of having continuous vision on the map.
I do agree that Terran builds are too easy to read, but that's true in both TvP and TvZ. In either MUs, the only real scouting needed vs Terran is for, a) proxies, and b) whether its a mech or bio composition.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL
Rogue said Zerg OP.
Serral said Zerg lategame OP.
Special said Zerg OP.
So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine?
I don't know, Kev...
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On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev...
2 zergs 1 Terran, so Zerg players are more aware of the state of the game than other pros, maybe the best players are playing zerg. But if they're simply better it means they're totally wrong about zerg being OP, so they don't have the better understanding so zerg is actually OP but they stated it so they're the better players. Oh well.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 24 2019 16:53 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... 2 zergs 1 Terran, so Zerg players are more aware of the state of the game than other pros, maybe the best players are playing zerg. But if they're simply better it means they're totally wrong about zerg being OP, so they don't have the better understanding so zerg is actually OP but they stated it so they're the better players. Oh well.
That's the biggest point, 2 zergs... but well, what do they know, they just won some money and titles 
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Playing against Zerg is so frustrating, especially their sell, free units. You do perfectly and "boom", Nydus appears, you bleed to death.
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Imbalance tarnishes everything in the game, there's no ''this race is broken only in the lategame''. The race is either broken as a whole or balanced, it can't be partially balanced.
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On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev...
Are you sure those 3 are the only players who expressed their views about balance?
Also, maybe double-check what Serral said, and dont go off of what Wax put in the title of the article.
He said, right before the patch
”I think ZvT and ZvP late game, I would say if Zerg plays perfect, then Zerg should always win late-game pretty much. But with like the EMP buff and that kind of stuff, it's very easy to get caught off guard with your infestors, and the moment that happens you kind of auto-lose the game. Since you need to fungals to beat ghosts, and you kind of just need a couple of infestors, at least. I don't know, I don't think it's TOO bad, especially with the infestor nerf right now—I don't think we can rely on mass-infestors anymore in ZvP.”
Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Are you sure those 3 are the only players who expressed their views about balance? Also, maybe double-check what Serral said, and dont go off of what Wax put in the title of the article. He said, right before the patch ” I think ZvT and ZvP late game, I would say if Zerg plays perfect, then Zerg should always win late-game pretty much. But with like the EMP buff and that kind of stuff, it's very easy to get caught off guard with your infestors, and the moment that happens you kind of auto-lose the game. Since you need to fungals to beat ghosts, and you kind of just need a couple of infestors, at least. I don't know, I don't think it's TOO bad, especially with the infestor nerf right now—I don't think we can rely on mass-infestors anymore in ZvP.” Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence
These 3 were published here on TL so common TL reader should know it(at leat common SC2 TL reader )
I rather simplified Serral, but hey, let's be fair. If both players play perfect(I know) and one of them has guaranteed a victory, doesn't that mean the situation isn't balanced and the said player is playing an OP race.
And yeah, as I wrote, I know it's hard to play perfectly all the time.
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On October 24 2019 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Are you sure those 3 are the only players who expressed their views about balance? Also, maybe double-check what Serral said, and dont go off of what Wax put in the title of the article. He said, right before the patch ” I think ZvT and ZvP late game, I would say if Zerg plays perfect, then Zerg should always win late-game pretty much. But with like the EMP buff and that kind of stuff, it's very easy to get caught off guard with your infestors, and the moment that happens you kind of auto-lose the game. Since you need to fungals to beat ghosts, and you kind of just need a couple of infestors, at least. I don't know, I don't think it's TOO bad, especially with the infestor nerf right now—I don't think we can rely on mass-infestors anymore in ZvP.” Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence These 3 were published here on TL so common TL reader should know it(at leat common SC2 TL reader ) I rather simplified Serral, but hey, let's be fair. If both players play perfect(I know) and one of them has guaranteed a victory, doesn't that mean the situation isn't balanced and the said player is playing an OP race. And yeah, as I wrote, I know it's hard to play perfectly all the time.
Oh please, like you havent heard or read every player interview for the past couple, year, cmon man :D
But yeah, strange how you never saw these kind of articles about Terran, ever.
I for one wouldnt have minded a Nydus nerf a month ago, it really isnt that big of a deal, it would maybe knock down ZvP a couple of percentages, but not much else. but maybe the masses would be less riled up, and personally i wouldnt mind seeing less nydus in the midgame, as a viewer. As a casual player I dont use them.
Who knows, maybe it would have been enough to push Showtime over the edge today, we ll never know.
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On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence
SC2 pros suggesting even the slightest advantage for their race usually relates to a serious balance issue. I'd bet Dark is still arguing Z is the worst. What Serral admitted is still a shock by sc2 standards, what Rogue said is unheard of.
Serral saying "there's still a way that zerg can lose to terran" doesn't help the case that much either.
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On October 24 2019 23:18 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence SC2 pros suggesting even the slightest advantage for their race usually relates to a serious balance issue. I'd bet Dark is still arguing Z is the worst. What Serral admitted is still a shock by sc2 standards, what Rogue said is unheard of. Serral saying "there's still a way that zerg can lose to terran" doesn't help the case that much either.
yeah, true about other pros never admitting to anything, although in the past players werent really encouraged to talk about balance like it s been happening for the past couple of years, and TL dindt write articles about cases when pros did comment about it.
Also, Special has been balance-whining for like 15 years straight, but suddenly his opinion on the matter is very relevant.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 24 2019 23:18 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence SC2 pros suggesting even the slightest advantage for their race usually relates to a serious balance issue. I'd bet Dark is still arguing Z is the worst. What Serral admitted is still a shock by sc2 standards, what Rogue said is unheard of. Serral saying "there's still a way that zerg can lose to terran" doesn't help the case that much either.
And it hapenned closely to each other which is another thing. it's not like Serral saying it in January and Rogue in September
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On October 24 2019 23:26 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 23:18 Fango wrote:On October 24 2019 22:43 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 24 2019 11:42 waiting2Bbanned wrote:On October 23 2019 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 23 2019 20:12 Harris1st wrote:
Cool interview!
Interesting that he just mentions Zerg scouting as the biggest threat, not even Infestor or Broodlords. Analog to what we discussed in the other thread, changes to Ovi speed or creep vision It’s really stretching it to say Zergs can just play the same game every game, but it is closer to the case with them than Protoss or Terrans playing vZ for sure. Yes, yes it is. Did you even watch the GSL finals? Or the semis? How about the quarter finals? Dark used a different build almost every game (when he wasn't busy defending cheese). He barely used BL/Inf, to the point he used the build as a distraction from mid-game pushes and ling-bane-hydra. "Could one player be in form, play great and actually outplay his opponent? Nah, his race is OP is the only possible explanation" - 90% of TL comments on non-mirror matches LOL Rogue said Zerg OP. Serral said Zerg lategame OP. Special said Zerg OP. So, we have now 3 pro players saying zerg op. Maybe, just maybe, there's something about it? Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine? I don't know, Kev... Funny how people shift+deleted the entire interview from their mind, except from that one sentence SC2 pros suggesting even the slightest advantage for their race usually relates to a serious balance issue. I'd bet Dark is still arguing Z is the worst. What Serral admitted is still a shock by sc2 standards, what Rogue said is unheard of. Serral saying "there's still a way that zerg can lose to terran" doesn't help the case that much either. Also, Special has been balance-whining for like 15 years straight, but suddenly his opinion on the matter is very relevant.
suddenly his opinion is justified in the matter more like.
Although you have to feel for him, if I was a foreign terran I'd have been whining this whole time as well
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On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine?
Zerg didn't win a single gsl in nearly five years and nobody cared. Why should one want Zerg to be nerfed now that they start to win a bit?
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Canada8989 Posts
On October 26 2019 02:43 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine?
Zerg didn't win a single gsl in nearly five years and nobody cared. Why should one want Zerg to be nerfed now that they start to win a bit?
Well soO and ByuL went 0-7 in GSL final so that helped quite a bit. Also I know we're suppose to pretend it never happen but Life won a GSL in 2015
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These opinions from pro players seems to adress a design rework of the Zerg Race..
Are they suddenly tired to have to stay out of the creep ? obvious...
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Northern Ireland25960 Posts
On October 26 2019 02:43 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine?
Zerg didn't win a single gsl in nearly five years and nobody cared. Why should one want Zerg to be nerfed now that they start to win a bit?
I’m pretty sure people were raising the lack of a GSL quite consistently.
Not that Zerg was always in a good shape over that span, if any race benefits the least from the prep format it’s Zerg.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 26 2019 02:43 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, if Zerg wins the last 4 tournaments, there's a slight reason to think the balance isn't fine?
Zerg didn't win a single gsl in nearly five years and nobody cared. Why should one want Zerg to be nerfed now that they start to win a bit?
Yeah, 4 consecutive 2nd places don't matter at all. Because only victories count, 2nd place is just the best loser! FFS
(edit> to be fair just 3, the first soo's 2nd place was in 2013 )
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Foreign Terran never won a WCS circuit for a long time. In fact, there was only one Terran at most in semi-final in any circuit, and only Special manage to reach final once since 2017. The last time a Terran reached WCS final before Special was back to 2016, and he is Polt, a Korean.
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On October 26 2019 07:57 pzlama333 wrote:
Foreign Terran never won a WCS circuit for a long time. In fact, there was only one Terran at most in semi-final in any circuit, and only Special manage to reach final once since 2017. The last time a Terran reached WCS final before Special was back to 2016, and he is Polt, a Korean.
Foreigners can only shine when Zerg has an advantage.
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Nothing new here. Serral basically said the same thing, zerg played correctly cannot lose. They got scouting, vision from creep, larva mechanic allows instant response, infestor lategame. Everytime i beat zerg its cuz i caught them offguard with something, if they are on top of their game i feel like theres nothing you can do.
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On November 01 2019 05:19 Obamarauder wrote:
Nothing new here. Serral basically said the same thing, zerg played correctly cannot lose. They got scouting, vision from creep, larva mechanic allows instant response, infestor lategame. Everytime i beat zerg its cuz i caught them offguard with something, if they are on top of their game i feel like theres nothing you can do.
You re melting all features of Zergs, but Z works with each of these advantages and you cannot changes every things.
I have an idea which is great, it came from a friend who has clearly identify the problem...
I can hide the solution to Z player and they can reveal it only if they wanna... if not, they can spend many hours on SC2 again, without knowing their weakness and enjoy wins for years and years..
+ Show Spoiler +Problem : Zerg don t take enought risks
Why : They are aware of being attacked thanks to the vision of creep
How Z has vision : With Queens and Tumors
What is best units of Z : Queens
Why : They do everything, especially creep
And Why finally they are not catched enought ?
Cause creep tumors can reproduce themselves in new tumors... Without taking any risks
Do you love Queens ? Yes
Do you eat Queens ? grmbl
Repeat Until Fade..
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/WCS2019/RTB/specialrtbbanner.jpg)
