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Northern Ireland25104 Posts
On October 01 2019 11:29 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2019 10:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote:
Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too. That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer. Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense. The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power. Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would. I think this is a good direction to nerf it if it does get nerfed. I think It would be good if the Nydus and the war prism can find a happy medium where they are late game harass enablers, but not early game allin powerhouses. We want late game harass because it helps split up death balls and creates dynamic fun games. We don't want instant reinforcement providing support units for early game allins, without enough counter play. This is why rightly so the community asked for the prism nerf awhile back, In the early game you just have to sacrifice to much to fully defend against the nydus and it allows a zerg allin to essentially function like an immortal allin, all the units come from your base to the toss main with very little travel time. And like most exceptionally strong early game allins it really restricts the range of viable builds, their just are not that many protoss builds that can hold a nydus allin.
Is part of that partly due to how bad Protoss lategame is against Zerg? It feels the meta is to cut a ton of corners to try and hit potent timings, which of course makes Nydus allins powerful against builds that don’t naturally counter it.
It feels Protoss players are by necessity having to roll the dice way too much these days, I’m still in favour of tweaking the nydus specifically but the whole dynamic of the matchup feels fundamentally wonky of late.
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I feel like just eliminating the mind control ability on infestors would do a lot to balance the game.
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On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote:
Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too.
I honestly don't think this really solves the issue. You already need vision to place a nydus, and the spotters for that are almost always overlords or overseers. You also already have a lair since the nydus requires one. So what do the zergs do once their nydus is up and this change goes through? They just move their overlord/overseer over to the nydus, poop creep, and make creep tumors with their queens. The problem hasn't been solved.
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On October 01 2019 11:50 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2019 11:29 seemsgood wrote:On October 01 2019 10:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote:
Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too. That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer. Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense. The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power. Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would. nydus s mid - late game usage is in a very good state right now so it wouldnt hurt if the tech is delayed a little bit people might complain zerg has no truly stronk cheese without nydus but its fine bc they still have mid and late game anyway Is it fine in the lategame? I think it’s stronger there, personally, just haven’t been really utilised to quite their potential recently. Rogue put up something like 25+ nyduses against Dark in one of their games, which Dark generally defended all of them. One gets up and Rogue crippled him. There’s that extra dough in the lategame so really spamming them is pretty potent.
On October 01 2019 11:56 Wombat_NI wrote:
Is part of that partly due to how bad Protoss lategame is against Zerg? It feels the meta is to cut a ton of corners to try and hit potent timings, which of course makes Nydus allins powerful against builds that don’t naturally counter it.
It feels Protoss players are by necessity having to roll the dice way too much these days, I’m still in favour of tweaking the nydus specifically but the whole dynamic of the matchup feels fundamentally wonky of late.
well,the nydus abuse in late game is either because of the map pool or lacking of head to head fighting prowess .Thats why protoss players cant dispatch thier units to defense or the dispatched units cant make it in time
one thing i want to point out is the current late game P army is so much supply inefficient and slow compare to zerg and no one s gonna sent dem sluggish archons,ping pongs and HTs to defends multiple nydues but without them,its a lost full against broodlord infestors anyway
3 supply infest seemsgood to me but the map pool needs some tweaks also
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Northern Ireland25104 Posts
How would one do the map pool if we were to make adjustments?
Smaller I think is probably an idea, perhaps fewer wide open areas?
I’d quite like to see more maze like maps experimented with too. Windy paths with chokes but take longer to navigate counterbalanced with shorter rush distances but wide open areas. Not a maze as such, but a route that’s made circuitous and elongated by the map itself.
Protoss and Terran could have areas that are good for them to push through, but take a long time to get through and give Zergs time to prepare.
Kind of like inhibitor fields and the idea behind them. Thus far from what I’ve seen the idea that they balance a shorter rush path haven’t really worked as intended. It just seems those routes = a short rush distance bar the few seconds it takes to get through the fields, so as long as you aren’t caught traversing a field you’re fine.
I don’t make maps and by and large folks do a good job IMO, it’s very difficult to balance map design in a game where one race wants big open areas, and the other two do not against that race.
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The only thing that really helps is a long cooldown on the nydus. Queens being used offensively is fine, there has never been a rule not to do that. Handling infestors seems the bigger issue. You don't want to nerf them too hard as they are already quite squishy. Maybe a better approach would be to add spells that dispel/reduce neural/fungal growth duration or something like that. Or prevent mass broodlings. There are many things to consider.
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I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
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I also must add, this finals, ( and matchups like Maru v sOs) are why I HATE team kills....
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On October 01 2019 12:32 Pwny_Danza wrote:
I feel like just eliminating the mind control ability on infestors would do a lot to balance the game.
yep. that single handedly makes mech unusable.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
All the game ever needed was to leave the old missile and just do **NOT** stack it. Yet they nerf it into oblivion right away. Why do you think they will introduce something like this?  (and if I know them irradiate will stack as the old missile  )
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On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell.
Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far.
Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk"
Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction
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On October 01 2019 12:32 Pwny_Danza wrote:
I feel like just eliminating the mind control ability on infestors would do a lot to balance the game.
I really do agree with this. Zerg has a lot of stuff that is strong late game, but neural sticks out to me. The reason mind control is so overpowered is that it takes a unit that is already generally good to have late game, and makes it a hard counter against tier3 unit compositions. Because of this, it seems like it's never a bad idea for a zerg to get a ton of infestors, because they are good in every situation.
I think that taking away neural would completely change the late game matchups (particularly zvp). Nice suggestion.
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Northern Ireland25104 Posts
I mean Zerg needs retooling to be less reliant on technical spellcaster armies and just more, Zergy I guess. Least to my tastes anyway.
It is something that’s happened in SC2, Protoss are much less reliant on forcefields than they were in the days of yore, although they’re still a factor they got other options and were less reliant on it over time.
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Don't forget Stats will play vs Rogue in ST2. Really curious how Stats is going to handle this.
Maybe he stomps Rogue and everyone jumps back on the OProtoss train XD
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Northern Ireland25104 Posts
On October 01 2019 21:23 Harris1st wrote:
Don't forget Stats will play vs Rogue in ST2. Really curious how Stats is going to handle this.
Maybe he stomps Rogue and everyone jumps back on the OProtoss train XD
Yeah definitely one of the first round matchups I’m most intrigued at, especially after Rogue said he was wrecking Stats in his prep for the GSL.
Plus Stats has taken down Serral pretty convincingly in relatively recent memory, and I don’t recall others having much success of late against the real S class Zergs.
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On October 01 2019 21:23 Harris1st wrote:
Don't forget Stats will play vs Rogue in ST2. Really curious how Stats is going to handle this.
Maybe he stomps Rogue and everyone jumps back on the OProtoss train XD
I'd say there is a 75% that Stats wins because Rogue phones it in.
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On October 01 2019 21:08 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash? Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell. Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far. Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction
huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar.....
Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those.
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
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On October 01 2019 20:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash? All the game ever needed was to leave the old missile and just do **NOT** stack it. Yet they nerf it into oblivion right away. Why do you think they will introduce something like this? (and if I know them irradiate will stack as the old missile )
Agreed, I was just thinking, if the logic was the hunter missiles were too good in all matchups, then Irradiate would be a decent alternative.....
But what the fuck, I want Smart Servo Siege Tanks, lol
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The year is 2019. Broodlords still spawn units
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On October 01 2019 21:55 Agh wrote:
The year is 2019. Broodlords still spawn units
That's not bad because the very idea of broodlords is to spawn units.
Other topic entirely is then should they function like they do. Could be so, that where ever they're targeted, they target, but every unit between them and the target would drain their HP more faster pace. In other words, the swarm would fly toward their assigned target as always, but if they have to pass any other enemy units, their HP/endurance would dramatically drained off when flying over/amongst them.
A Zerg that can send them from a direction that remains unblocked (by enemy unit(s)) would benefit from that. Straightforward attack across/over enemy concentrations would severely dull the sword of the swarm, even without any unit particularly attacking against them.
Of course, if there are broodlords in a future iterations of SC2, they will spawn sub-units. You cannot argue against the very idea of the unit, per se, when they spawn units as long as they exist. There are nothing inherently wrong about the idea, and particularly not balance-wise.
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EPT
