After winning the Code S Season 3 finals with a 4-0 sweep over teammate Trap, Rogue gave some surprisingly honest remarks about how he was aided by Zerg being imbalanced at the moment.
In the post-match press conference [going by DailyEsports' transcript], Rogue said "I think Stats is the Protoss player who is best at late game PvZ, but even he crumbles against Zerg in the late game. There's no way for Protoss to win after you mass Infestors. I think Zerg needs to be nerfed, and not just because I won this championship. But after BlizzCon, I hope."
Rogue also admitted to barely practicing for his Ro16 group, having lost some of his interest and sense of enjoyment for the game. But after advancing from the group of death despite his lack of practice, he realized "the Zerg race is really empowered right now, and the maps are really good for Zerg" and began to practice in earnest.
When asked if he had any words for Trap, Rogue said "Trap prepared really hard. I won because balance really favors Zerg. I think he'll feel bad about this one."
Regarding Serral, Rogue said "I've faced him in international tournaments, and I think he's truly a great Zerg player. But I don't think I'm lacking in late-game macro play, and I think he won't measure up if we play late-game macro."
Big talk but i didnt see Rogue anywhere when Serral won GSL vs the world twice and he beat him last global finals. I guess next global finals will tell He might be right about Zerg tho, not sure.
Why do players like Rogue and Dark look down or think they are better than Serral in macro game? Serral is a macro/end game Zerg. Both of these guys have played Serral in the late game before and got stomped. Silly Rogue.
I think its a mindset thing, If you think your opponent is unbeatable you will go into a match way differently compared to wh en you think you can beat him.
On September 29 2019 11:35 phodacbiet wrote: Why do players like Rogue and Dark look down or think they are better than Serral in macro game? Serral is a macro/end game Zerg. Both of these guys have played Serral in the late game before and got stomped. Silly Rogue.
I don't think they look down on him. They just have enough confidence in themselves to give Serral a challenge. I'm pretty sure that they know Serral is the best right now, but would you expect them to say, "Ohh he's so good, I don't stand a chance, I might as well take the loss."?
On September 29 2019 11:33 Waxangel wrote: I can't believe Zerg players would latch onto a minor comment about Serral to try and derail this important discussion about balance
I know, it's like you offered us a pack of dynamite and everyone went back to stick and stones. European ladder players should wake soon tho, it's comming
This has been obvious for a long time and can be seen every time Tastosis cast a zerg game, it's always around not letting zerg get to the late game. This shouldn't be an almost insta-win condition for any race.
This is the problem with balancing the game around different races being strong at different points of the game. The idea that Zerg should be strong in late game but weak in the early game or that other races should be strong at a certain time and weak late-game is so stupid but Blizzard has admitted to doing it and a lot of players support it. That might work well for a while and it has worked for the last few years but in the long term the early/mid-game will be figured out (unless there are broken builds) and whichever race has the best late-game will start winning 90% of the time. Part of it has been the patches they have done but ultimately that mindset and balancing style is the real problem. If you look at the patch notes from last Blizzcon to now the changes aren't as dramatic as the current balance would have you believe and it's due to this. If Blizzard's post blizzcon answer to this is to change the mid-game again I might quit watching StarCraft II. The balance will improve for a while but it will still get to the same point if that's all they change.
Even though the majority of this series didn't go to late-game doesn't mean the status of late-game didn't effect those other games. It dictates every build and decision Trap made.
Rogue keeping it real. He played almost flawlessly too, that or just made Trap look like a B-teamer. I even wanted and was happy for Rogue to win, but damn that was so anti-climatic.
Maybe bring back a weakened version of the archon toilet (w/ reduced radius?). That hurts zerg much more than it hurts terran, so maybe it'll help PvZ without breaking PvT.
Besides that, I can only think: reduce energy capacity of infestors by 10, to force them to be a little more active while slightly reducing their ability to spam in a big engagement.
I'm of the persuasion that zerg having an edge in lategame should be tolerated, but currently that edge is just too big.
I think right now the maps really favor Z...not many choke points, all have very large travel distances. Only way T or P can reinforce is to either have a warp prism or march across the map. High-level Z players are so good at creep spreading now so Z can always reinforce their defenses in one area or to keep up the pressure to attack.
Nydus is also currently being used a lot, and to great effect...I feel like the base armor of Nydus should be reduced some more so the defending player can pull workers to kill the building faster if there's not many army units at home.
Also seeing and agreeing with what ppl have wrote about in the Grand Finals discussion, the Infestor is by far the best spellcaster in the game. It can have a permanent cloak and travel under units (Ghosts with cloak can't path through other units), and it has both spells against single expensive units (neural) and multi cheap units (fungal), plus a free unit that does pretty good DPS by itself (infested terran)
Perhaps reduce or halt energy regeneration while infestors are burrowed? That would make it harder to do those infested marines nexus/worker snipes, while nerfing that "free cloak" factor.
I don't think rogue beats serral in zvz. Korean zergs have not really developed since the fall of kespa teams. Most of them literally still go roach ravager only and refuse to go hive. I think only Solar and Rogue attempt the late game but they are still no where near as developed as the euro zergs. If korea wants to win blizzcon it'd have to come down to their terrans. So maru I guess.
On September 29 2019 14:26 MinixTheNerd wrote: I don't think rogue beats serral in zvz. Korean zergs have not really developed since the fall of kespa teams. Most of them literally still go roach ravager only and refuse to go hive. I think only Solar and Rogue attempt the late game but they are still no where near as developed as the euro zergs. If korea wants to win blizzcon it'd have to come down to their terrans. So maru I guess.
like usual, Korean Protoss will kill Maru in the early round before he gets to face any foreign Zerg
On September 29 2019 11:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Is one of those questions about the Nydus worm? What did Rogue answer?
I was happy when Maru said in an interview the problem atm with Zerg is infestors AND nydus. Lately Serral AND Rogue said Zerg is imba. But thanks Rogue and Serral to be honest, they are both awesome players but humble as well.
Imo they should make the nydus costing money for zerg each time one is done and having a cool down because it is like if a zerg could warp his units everywhere and anytime on the map.
Impossible for protoss and terran to defend and to mobilize their armies to be well positionned. Terran and Protoss could wall in and defend with bunkers and sentries but today it is impossible with nydus rush. Faster overlord are great for zergs to scout but they let us making nydus way faster and way easier.
On September 29 2019 13:23 JJH777 wrote: This is the problem with balancing the game around different races being strong at different points of the game. The idea that Zerg should be strong in late game but weak in the early game or that other races should be strong at a certain time and weak late-game is so stupid but Blizzard has admitted to doing it and a lot of players support it. That might work well for a while and it has worked for the last few years but in the long term the early/mid-game will be figured out (unless there are broken builds) and whichever race has the best late-game will start winning 90% of the time. Part of it has been the patches they have done but ultimately that mindset and balancing style is the real problem. If you look at the patch notes from last Blizzcon to now the changes aren't as dramatic as the current balance would have you believe and it's due to this. If Blizzard's post blizzcon answer to this is to change the mid-game again I might quit watching StarCraft II. The balance will improve for a while but it will still get to the same point if that's all they change.
Even though the majority of this series didn't go to late-game doesn't mean the status of late-game didn't effect those other games. It dictates every build and decision Trap made.
You picked a bad series to showcase that, tho. Rogue won 3 of the 4 games looooong before endgame. Two with midgame nydus attacks that Trap defended abysmally (Hurricane beat Rogue's exact same attack from game 1 a few days earlier). And in game 4 Trap's proxy glaives didn't do enough and rogue beat him with ravagers.
So even the utter late game beat down in game 3 is "suspect": Trap was just inferior to Rogue yesterday in every way.
Now, if you say that Zerg is simply OP at all stages of the game, then maybe? But this series was not an example of Rogue hanging on in the games until his unstoppable broodlord infestor comp could claw him back into the game. It was simply Rogue crushing a player who has been flailing in ZvP for ages, looking far superior at all stages of the game.
On September 29 2019 13:41 MockHamill wrote: I think a supply increase would be a good idea. It would give a downside to massing the unit.
Then after Blizzcon they could look at nerfing neural.
As a zerg I think this is probably the best way to keep infestor strong enough in midgame but less potent in lategame. Zerg needs strong infestors to fight air based armies and 3 instead of 2 supply would be a good solution VS mass infestors.
As for nydus: not sure if it is too strong. Both serral and rogue are talking about lategame zerg op not in midgame. If nydus is too strong I guess increase build time slightly so you can react better could be good. But please don't trash it or Z won't be able to harass bases again.
Nyduses are strong alright...it grants zerg players enough mobility to reposition and out position their opponents. Serral displayed that in his match against TY when he made more than one nydus to ram his defence over and over from multiple sides. The problem is that nyduses are cheap and don't carry much of a risk...
On September 29 2019 13:41 MockHamill wrote: I think a supply increase would be a good idea. It would give a downside to massing the unit.
Then after Blizzcon they could look at nerfing neural.
As a zerg I think this is probably the best way to keep infestor strong enough in midgame but less potent in lategame. Zerg needs strong infestors to fight air based armies and 3 instead of 2 supply would be a good solution VS mass infestors.
As for nydus: not sure if it is too strong. Both serral and rogue are talking about lategame zerg op not in midgame. If nydus is too strong I guess increase build time slightly so you can react better could be good. But please don't trash it or Z won't be able to harass bases again.
The unit is just badly designed, it has such a variety of spells that it counters everything by itself. It fulfills too many roles for Zerg. On the medium term it has to be redesigned. Short term I agree with your suggestion, although I think 4 supply would be better than 3. A spammable nydus is also a bad design. Only one nydus worm should be allowed per nydus network.
On September 29 2019 11:33 Waxangel wrote: I can't believe Zerg players would latch onto a minor comment about Serral to try and derail this important discussion about balance
There isn't much to discuss to be honest, there was a period of time where Battlecruiser build were a novelty and Zerg didn't knew how to best play against it so it had some success, and a period where immortal all-in were legit too strong, but other than that Zerg is overwhelmingly favored in all match up at all stage of the games and this has been the story for the whole year in almost all tournament, in all regions.
Nydus worms should just have one head per butt, adjust butt cost accordingly. And the return of BL/Fester happened when ITs were buffed again. Just completely REMOVE that ability please; You shouldn't be able to save energy to get a bunch of marines on top of your existing army and when made useless like before why have them at all?
Also lol at the people posting about the trivial Serral bit
I think that the Nydus Infestor game from Rogue was really impressive and this use of the Infestor was really flavourful and awesome. So while Nydus is a bit over the top and the Infestor is a bit over the top in terms of balance, try not to kill this strat :D
On September 29 2019 12:39 Corgi wrote: Serral has really lit something under Korean player's collective mindset.
Rogue loves to trashtalk, but maybe he forgot his hopeless face after Serral methodically outposition and outtrade him at BlizzCon; Rogue should have better said "in the lategame...I think I can measure up to him", not the opposite.
ZvZ is not Serral's weakest matchup, it's Reynor's best(who's way stronger than you make him to be), and it's not as volatile as you say since the better players wins the majority of the times just like in any other matchup.
I find it fun that Rogue himself basically confirms Mizenhauer was right.
No one cares about what he says about serral, the fact of the matter is that Z has been the strongest race this entire year by far (and also last year, just not as much maybe), and they dominate EVEN in Korea now where the strongest players has always been terrans and protosses.
"I've faced him in international tournaments, and I think he's truly a great Zerg player. But I don't think I'm lacking in late-game macro play, and I think he won't measure up if we play late-game macro."
Good to know you will play for lategame against Serral if you meet him. lowers your chances to win to about 0.1%
Rogue so handsome again. Tbh I find it hilarious that Blizzard hands Zerg all these championships on a silver platter and then they just can't help themselves telling the truth. This also means that in the honour standings, Rogue is our number one ahead of Serral who is clearly ahead of Dark (always the villain).
On September 29 2019 19:36 Mun_Su wrote: Big props to him for admiting that; will Blizzard move accordingly or will we have a poor blizzcon?
The main reason it's that way is because blizzard moved in response to illegitimate / out of proportion whine from T/Z players some months ago. There's objectively more balance whine and more popular balance whine coming out of those races than from P and it's been wrongly taken as an actual statistical problem.
Well, say what you will about Rogue, i do like the fact that he is at least not tilting when playing Serral is brought up, unlike entire foreign scene. In regards to balance, i mean, we saw finals score.
On September 29 2019 20:19 LUK_21 wrote: Maru wins 5 gslwith terran, all is gud. Rogue wins1time with zerg, clearly its super op and imbalanced Kappa
Last year was way more diverse in terms of races that did well and the large skew in balance was mostly (though not entirely) Serral's doing.
Maru was literally the only terran player to win any premier tournament in 2018.
There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments last year. 7 were won by zerg (6x Serral, 1x Rogue), 3 by terran (all Maru), 2 by protoss (Stats and Classic). Out of the 24 finalists 9 were zerg, 11 were protoss and 4 (!) were terran.
There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments this year (so far, 2 more coming) and 8 of them were won by a zerg (3x Serral, 2x Raynor, 1x Soo, 1x Dark, 1x Rogue), 3 by protoss (1x Stats, 1x Neeb, 1x Classic) and 1 by terran (1x Maru). Out of the 24 finalists 14 were zerg, 7 were protoss and 3 (!) were terran.
Rogue: There's no way for Protoss to win after you mass Infestors.
Only Protoss too dumb to use Feedback, Storm and Distruptors.
This really reminds me of Terrans that want to mono-battle and whine because they're losing.
The best Protoss players in the world have no chance in late game against the best Zergs and it's just because they're collectively all too dumb. Makes perfect sense. Smart players only play Zerg.
On September 29 2019 13:41 MockHamill wrote: I think a supply increase would be a good idea. It would give a downside to massing the unit.
Then after Blizzcon they could look at nerfing neural.
As a zerg I think this is probably the best way to keep infestor strong enough in midgame but less potent in lategame. Zerg needs strong infestors to fight air based armies and 3 instead of 2 supply would be a good solution VS mass infestors.
As for nydus: not sure if it is too strong. Both serral and rogue are talking about lategame zerg op not in midgame. If nydus is too strong I guess increase build time slightly so you can react better could be good. But please don't trash it or Z won't be able to harass bases again.
It seems a wise decision for Blizzcon.. Hope your changes will be applied.
To me, there s a reccuring problem with creep, ... Is the mid game really played in XvZ ?
ahahah,.. I mean, at pro level, except endgame there s nothing else..
I feel creep tumors not funs at all Blizzard, when i watch pro games in XvZ, i m not satisfied cause i could skip the 10 first minutes, cause all terran players resigned to make "all-in / timing push", and protoss go endgame... you can t struggle against 300 tumors which aren t visible !!
Blizz, You could increase their armor and health, make them visible... hell... Of course, you can modify their spread disparition, but give a try with some maps dedicated to this, I promiss i will make them if i have enought time..
Zerg being imba gives us foreigner champions so it's not getting changed anytime soon. Hopefully the Rogue vs Serral finals at blizzcon will be watchable.
On September 29 2019 19:36 Mun_Su wrote: Big props to him for admiting that; will Blizzard move accordingly or will we have a poor blizzcon?
The main reason it's that way is because blizzard moved in response to illegitimate / out of proportion whine from T/Z players some months ago. There's objectively more balance whine and more popular balance whine coming out of those races than from P and it's been wrongly taken as an actual statistical problem.
Well tvp is much better than it has been in a long time IMO no mass proxy bullshit and no getting roll over in the late game. I feel it's pretty 50/50, or at least it's close enough that it can go back even with a bit more practice or other map.
I don't hate tvz either, it feel like we haven't yet found the end of the possibility of BC oppening and there is still a lot of Starcraft to play before getting lock down by infestor. pvz is a broken pile of shit.
On September 29 2019 11:02 Pangpootata wrote: If Rogue were a TL poster he would have been banned for balance whine
As he should be. After having gone through TL forced reeducation, I have realized that the game has never been imbalanced and never will be. When Zerg players come out of the wood works to win tournament after tournament after tournament, it is because they decided to work harder than all the lazy Terran and Protoss players. Anyone who doesn't realize that must be purged with extreme prejudice.
On September 29 2019 21:38 Fango wrote: Zerg being imba gives us foreigner champions so it's not getting changed anytime soon. Hopefully the Rogue vs Serral finals at blizzcon will be watchable.
We had a foreigner champion before Zerg were imba. There will be 16 Zerg at BlizzCon as everyone knows and considering Reynor's prowess in ZvZ we may have him against Serral at BlizzCon in the finals, who told you Rogue is better at the matchup?
On September 29 2019 20:19 LUK_21 wrote: Maru wins 5 gslwith terran, all is gud. Rogue wins1time with zerg, clearly its super op and imbalanced Kappa
Last year was way more diverse in terms of races that did well and the large skew in balance was mostly (though not entirely) Serral's doing.
Maru was literally the only terran player to win any premier tournament in 2018.
There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments last year. 7 were won by zerg (6x Serral, 1x Rogue), 3 by terran (all Maru), 2 by protoss (Stats and Classic). Out of the 24 finalists 9 were zerg, 11 were protoss and 4 (!) were terran.
There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments this year (so far, 2 more coming) and 8 of them were won by a zerg (3x Serral, 2x Raynor, 1x Soo, 1x Dark, 1x Rogue), 3 by protoss (1x Stats, 1x Neeb, 1x Classic) and 1 by terran (1x Maru). Out of the 24 finalists 14 were zerg, 7 were protoss and 3 (!) were terran.
problem with balance in starcraft is it's too mechanically feasible to reach a point where becoming better mechanically will yield so little reward relative to the significance of balance
On September 29 2019 21:55 NotSoHappy wrote: Maybe that festor nydus play seems a bit imba, but honestly, Trap got outplayed with superior strategies by a better player.
^^this
I really don't think we should base race-balancing on shit play, but rather on high-level play, which Trap's was definitely not. At the same time, ZvP is Rogue's best matchup.
Looking at Aligulac's Balance Report graphs it's easy to see all 3 races being basically tied together currently.
At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the whole time.
On September 29 2019 23:59 BisuDagger wrote: At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the whole time.
Pretty sure the infestor got buffed at the end of last year.
On September 29 2019 20:19 LUK_21 wrote: Maru wins 5 gslwith terran, all is gud. Rogue wins1time with zerg, clearly its super op and imbalanced Kappa
Last year was way more diverse in terms of races that did well and the large skew in balance was mostly (though not entirely) Serral's doing.
Maru was literally the only terran player to win any premier tournament in 2018.
There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments last year. 7 were won by zerg (6x Serral, 1x Rogue), 3 by terran (all Maru), 2 by protoss (Stats and Classic). Out of the 24 finalists 9 were zerg, 11 were protoss and 4 (!) were terran.
There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments this year (so far, 2 more coming) and 8 of them were won by a zerg (3x Serral, 2x Raynor, 1x Soo, 1x Dark, 1x Rogue), 3 by protoss (1x Stats, 1x Neeb, 1x Classic) and 1 by terran (1x Maru). Out of the 24 finalists 14 were zerg, 7 were protoss and 3 (!) were terran.
Can look at it however you please but if you organise by prize pool, you can see Protoss haven't won a big tournament. Since start of 2018 Protoss have only won tournaments with a prize pool of less than 30k and WCS America (not as competitive). As well as 2nd place finishes.
Out of the 22 biggest tournaments (based on prize pool) since the start of 2018 Protoss have not won any .(intentionally leaving out WCS America where Neeb beat Scarlet once).
Wins out of the 22 Tournements with a prize pool over 30k since start of 2018:
For Protoss: 0 Wins
For Terran: 6 Wins
Maru: (WESG in 2018), (2018 GSL S1),(2018 GSL S2),(2018 GSL S3 vs TY in final), (2019 GSL S1)
Innovation: (WESG in 2019)
For Zerg: 16 Wins
Serral: (2018 WCS Global Finals), (2018 WCS 1), (WCS 2), (WCS 3), (WCS 4 vs Reynor in final), (2018 GSL v world), (2019 GSL v World vs Elazer in final), (2019 WCS Spring), (2019 WCS Fall vs Reynor in final)
Reynor: (2019 WCS Winter vs Serral in final), (2019 WCS Summer vs Serral in final)
Rogue: (IEM XII World Championship), (2019 GSL S3)
On September 29 2019 23:59 BisuDagger wrote: At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the whole time.
the current mappool sucks for tvz and last patch ruined pvz midgame
On September 29 2019 23:59 BisuDagger wrote: At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the whole time.
On September 29 2019 20:19 LUK_21 wrote: Maru wins 5 gslwith terran, all is gud. Rogue wins1time with zerg, clearly its super op and imbalanced Kappa
Last year was way more diverse in terms of races that did well and the large skew in balance was mostly (though not entirely) Serral's doing.
Maru was literally the only terran player to win any premier tournament in 2018.
There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments last year. 7 were won by zerg (6x Serral, 1x Rogue), 3 by terran (all Maru), 2 by protoss (Stats and Classic). Out of the 24 finalists 9 were zerg, 11 were protoss and 4 (!) were terran.
There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments this year (so far, 2 more coming) and 8 of them were won by a zerg (3x Serral, 2x Raynor, 1x Soo, 1x Dark, 1x Rogue), 3 by protoss (1x Stats, 1x Neeb, 1x Classic) and 1 by terran (1x Maru). Out of the 24 finalists 14 were zerg, 7 were protoss and 3 (!) were terran.
Can look at it however you please but if you organise by prize pool, you can see Protoss haven't won a big tournament. Since start of 2018 Protoss have only won tournaments with a prize pool of less than 30k and WCS America (not as competitive). As well as 2nd place finishes.
Out of the 22 biggest tournaments (based on prize pool) since the start of 2018 Protoss have not won any .(intentionally leaving out WCS America where Neeb beat Scarlet once).
Wins out of the 22 Tournements with a prize pool over 30k since start of 2018:
For Protoss: 0 Wins
For Terran: 6 Wins
Maru: (WESG in 2018), (2018 GSL S1),(2018 GSL S2),(2018 GSL S3 vs TY in final), (2019 GSL S1)
Innovation: (WESG in 2019)
For Zerg: 16 Wins
Serral: (2018 WCS Global Finals), (2018 WCS 1), (WCS 2), (WCS 3), (WCS 4 vs Reynor in final), (2018 GSL v world), (2019 GSL v World vs Elazer in final), (2019 WCS Spring), (2019 WCS Fall vs Reynor in final)
Reynor: (2019 WCS Winter vs Serral in final), (2019 WCS Summer vs Serral in final)
Rogue: (IEM XII World Championship), (2019 GSL S3)
soO: (IEM XIII Katowice)
Dark: (2019 GSL S2)
Scarlet: (IEM XII PyeongChang)
Protoss players made more money than Terran players in 2018, in spite of Maru carrying the whole race on his back in term of results. Props to Rogue for telling things like they are, but I don’t think blizzard will patch anything before blizzcon. Maybe we could have a new map pool time tho?
On September 29 2019 23:59 BisuDagger wrote: At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the whole time.
Pretty sure the infestor got buffed at the end of last year.
The infestor buff, which by itself wasn't problematically huge in my opinion, went hand in hand with a nydus buff as well a Feedback nerf and the removal of Graviton Catapult (which carriers never recovered from) on the Protoss side as well as a raven nerf on the Terran side. From there it took a few months for the meta to develop after the big end of the year patch until people got the hang of how Zerg late game should really be played.
And to add to all that, recent map pools have not exactly been making it excruciatingly difficult for Zerg players to reach late game in a condition which they feel they can win from.
On September 29 2019 11:21 FBTsingLoong wrote: Soo:"I'm a clean Zerg." lol Serral is still the best Z player without late game.
And we can also see that soO is getting pretty much zero results in current meta.
BL+infestor, nydus and all that ugly stuff is truly bullshit, but is there anything else Zerg can do? Pretty much every ZvT goes into lategame these days because there is just no way for Zerg to really push into Terran mid-game without being super ineffective, and ZvP gets really dice-y with using swarm hosts, roach ravager etc.
On September 29 2019 21:55 NotSoHappy wrote: Maybe that festor nydus play seems a bit imba, but honestly, Trap got outplayed with superior strategies by a better player.
^^this
I really don't think we should base race-balancing on shit play, but rather on high-level play, which Trap's was definitely not. At the same time, ZvP is Rogue's best matchup.
Looking at Aligulac's Balance Report graphs it's easy to see all 3 races being basically tied together currently.
Well if you look at Aliguliac and look for balance in "high level play" you should go to the history section ( aligulac.com/periods/ ) this shows what balance is like at the top, quote from Aliguliac FAQ:
"On the period list you can see OP/UP fields, and in the infobox for each period, the same data is given as "leading" and "lagging" race. This is an indicator showing which races are most and least prominent near the top of the list. Specifically, for each race imagine a hypothetical player with a rating equal to the mean of the ratings of the top five players of that race, and imagine these three players playing very many games against each other. If the players were of equal strength, each of them would score about 50%, however, in reality, one of them may score, say, 10% more than that. The race that scores the most in this scenario is the "OP", or "leading" race, and the race that scores the least is the "UP", or "lagging" race."
So in the history section you will see Zerg is leading by 15% & Protoss is lagging by 14% (Does that mean a top 5 protoss is only has a 21% chance to win each map? surely then they have a tiny chance in a BO7. The PvZ specific rating may be even worse). This has mostly been the trend for many months now. With Protoss lagging between 6-17% since March 2018 (Protoss are often the lagging race historically). Zerg leading mostly in the same period.
Zergs lead % is at its all time peak now (The data goes back to 2010 and 15% is the biggest figure a race has ever had as a lead, only reached by Terran before now and only in 2 periods, Zerg is currently sitting at 15% & had 14% last period). This is when Protoss is still lagging after many moths with a pretty big 14% lag.
So if you "really don't think we should base race-balancing on shit play, but rather on high-level play" then a patch should happen immediately to nerf Zerg by 15% and buff Protoss by 14%.
Despite all this Trap managed to get to have the 2nd most WCS Korea points which I think is the most impressive feat of any Korean this year, considering he was playing Protoss, not Zerg and didn't win a GSL which gives a lot of points (Protoss haven't won a GSL in 2 years so you can't really blame Trap, he came closer than anyone else playing Protoss by getting to the last 2 finals).
Calling Trap a shit player or not high-level play is pretty much the most unfair claim one could make about an SC2 player at the moment. He is playing a race that is 29% behind Zerg, the only race he lost to in the last 2 GSLs .
To be equally blunt, looking at ZvPs from the top Zergs the only times I see them lose is when they have moments of "shit play", otherwise Protoss seems doomed.
Trap is arguably the best player this year, in the last 2 GSLs he won everything that wasn't vs Zerg including beating all the best Terrans and Classic (who was highest rated PvP at the time) in PvP bo7. Protoss don't beat top Zergs, Dark, Rogue and Solar are top Zergs and that is all he lost to.
Of course he has lower rating, the highest rated protoss on Aliguliac is 10th total, with 5 Zergs ahead. The highest rating for any Protoss in PvZ is 2845 The highest rating for Zerg in ZvP is 3191 This is because Zerg, the race, is easier to win with in ZvP at the highest level statistically. Rogue is 271 rating off of being the best at ZvP. Trap is 241 rating off being the best at PvZ.
So Trap is closer to being the best out of everyone at the matchup playing Protoss than Rogue is to doing that as Zerg. Trap is closer to playing Protoss at its potential than Rogue is to playing Zerg at its potential [If we call current potential best in the world/highest rating] (in all matchups), that is not enough.
Trap has been much more impressive this year, especially when you factor in how Protoss are at a huge disadvantage comparative to Zerg. Thats why he "had to" do all ins, so you can't judge his strategy without taking into account Zerg are at a big advantage and that grows massively once they don't have to make more drones because then they can't get it wrong and make drones as they are being all inned which is mainly how we see Zerg lose in the matchup, not that it mattered vs the adept all in in game 4. Zerg also have a massive advantage once they get to Infestor, Broodlord, Spore.
I would love to see how Trap would do if the game were actually balanced.
I didn't want to type that much but that is something I just have to call out immediately.
Leaving aside the mental gymnastics you had to do to ignore the Aligulac balance graphs (how hard is it to flat-out deny the right-most end of the graph where all 3 races are basically equal LOL), I'm just gonna address the part where it seems to you that Trap's play was as great as it could be, while Rogue was just carried over by the easiest race to play: go look at some of Neeb's wins over Z if you want to see what good PvZ is like.
As far as the 'Trap is the best PvZ player, but nothing to do against the big bad zerg' theory, you can look at Zest's showing against Rogue in the quarterfinal, where he actually put up a fight despite being far from his best form this year and PvZ being his worst MU.
For the record, I don't think Trap is 'a shit player', just that he was massively outplayed in this finals and perhaps he might've done better if Rogue wasn't his teammate.
I also don't think Dark is a shit player just because he got outplayed this time in the semis, although you might be able to find some balance reason for that and I can't wait to read about it
Players have ups and downs, sometimes they do great for a whole tournament just to fall apart in the finals (see soO's GSL finals), while other players struggle through a tournament only to shine on the last day. It's why we play these games instead of just handing out trophies based on ladder ranking.
On September 29 2019 23:59 BisuDagger wrote: At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the whole time.
Zergs also got better, this tends to be the ebb and flow of ZvP since forever. PvZ has basically always sucked in how it flows anyway, we’re just seeing it more in focus lately. TvZ and TvP you can deviate and cheese, or do wonky things but they’re also characterised by trades between stock compositions, and playing ‘straight up’ so to speak and gaining incremental edges.
PvZ unless it’s a really weird game just does not work like that. It’s usually expand, do some kind of tech based harassment and hit a timing attack at some point.
The two races for whatever reasons just don’t dovetail well together. I like PvT more than most, and many love TvZ obviously, so both races can make good matchups, just together not so much.
If Protoss had a comparable lategame to Zerg, or at least viable the matchup would be better because it would give Zergs more to worry about in terms of gameplans.
As it stands Zerg players know Protoss players aren’t even considering playing for the lategame, and are going to try and kill them before BL/Infestor hits its stride.
If you know that to be the case, the more time that passes the worse it will get. Just by experience alone, even without changes and patches.
The likes of Serral/Rogue and Dark have probably played literally a thousand ZvPs since the period around Super Tournament 1 where Protoss were crushing it with Immortal timings.
It’s a crude analogy but I feel the Zerg in this matchup are a bit like the Borg. Every time you devise some new weapon to kill them the collective adapts and it stops working so well. DT drop into Archon prism shenanigans used to do a lot of damage or slow the Zerg down, now it’s defended borderline flawlessly etc etc.
On September 30 2019 02:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s a crude analogy but I feel the Zerg in this matchup are a bit like the Borg. Every time you devise some new weapon to kill them the collective adapts and it stops working so well. DT drop into Archon prism shenanigans used to do a lot of damage or slow the Zerg down, now it’s defended borderline flawlessly etc etc.
That's just a general truth to the game I'd say, just look at TvZ. Cyclone mech after the patch in November started off strong, now the highest level Terrans barely go for it anymore. BC harass openers seemed really strong for a while, but people learnt to handle those well enough relatively fast. Continued BC production seemed really good but then Zergs figured out that they have a working counterplay in infestors (as well as some roach/ravager/corruptor timings). Now if you watch the top Korean Terrans their standard play is bio/tank into bio/mine (the latter was a pretty unexpected comeback).
In general players adapt over time to find solutions, and then people adapt to the solutions and on and on. And when people can't directly adapt to something for whatever reason, they try playing around it (e. g. Soultrain vs BL/infestor). Or beg until Blizzard changes it.
On September 30 2019 02:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s a crude analogy but I feel the Zerg in this matchup are a bit like the Borg. Every time you devise some new weapon to kill them the collective adapts and it stops working so well. DT drop into Archon prism shenanigans used to do a lot of damage or slow the Zerg down, now it’s defended borderline flawlessly etc etc.
That's just a general truth to the game I'd say, just look at TvZ. Cyclone mech after the patch in November started off strong, now the highest level Terrans barely go for it anymore. BC harass openers seemed really strong for a while, but people learnt to handle those well enough relatively fast. Continued BC production seemed really good but then Zergs figured out that they have a working counterplay in infestors (as well as some roach/ravager/corruptor timings). Now if you watch the top Korean Terrans their standard play is bio/tank into bio/mine (the latter was a pretty unexpected comeback).
In general players adapt over time to find solutions, and then people adapt to the solutions and on and on. And when people can't directly adapt to something for whatever reason, they try playing around it (e. g. Soultrain vs BL/infestor). Or beg until Blizzard changes it.
Well absolutely, it keeps the game interesting.
Protoss have neither a good lategame vZ, nor the ability to be trading armies and being active that they do have T, or Terrans and Zergs have with each other.
If they had either PvZ would be considerably better, it feels they are very very constrained currently, and it’s easier to deal with their tricks under those constraints.
The race is so, so reliant currently on tricking a Zerg opponent, exemplified by stuff like double hidden Stargate off an ostensible Robo opener isn’t some weird sOs one time build but a relatively common one.
The era of airtoss had its problems too don’t get me wrong, but the matchup was probably at its best then because Protoss could play a passive macro game, which gave them another option and something for their opponent to think about. Which meant they couldn’t cut corners around such a relatively predictable framework as we’re seeing now. Wings had a decent period as well before Zergs plugged holes in their play, where Protoss split armies and used warp prisms to circumvent the composition. It was a pretty cool period with some crazy games from HerO specifically but even Ace played an amazing one. Zergs plugged those holes in their play though and BL/Infestor play got a lot better figured out.
The problem with Zerg is a design one. For a balanced game, each race needs a match up that requires being aggressive, another that requires being defensive, then the mirror gets to be a clown fiesta. When the optimal play by one of the races is to be hyper aggressive all the time or hyper defensive all the time, it causes all kinds of problems in terms of balance and lets one dimensional players over perform. (e.g. ByuN with Terran in 2016)
We had that for a time with Zerg in 2018 with Ravens, but they nerfed them to hell because Serral couldn't handle them even though good Zerg players like Rogue and Dark were having success at that time. (Rogue won Katowice beating Maru. Dark lost 4-3 then 4-2 to Maru)
On September 30 2019 03:31 Wombat_NI wrote: The race is so, so reliant currently on tricking a Zerg opponent, exemplified by stuff like double hidden Stargate off an ostensible Robo opener isn’t some weird sOs one time build but a relatively common one.
And said trickery has been nerfed pretty harshly with changes to warp prisms and overlord speed. PvZ has definitely hit a rough patch.
On September 30 2019 03:33 Boggyb wrote: The problem with Zerg is a design one. For a balanced game, each race needs a match up that requires being aggressive, another that requires being defensive, then the mirror gets to be a clown fiesta. When the optimal play by one of the races is to be hyper aggressive all the time or hyper defensive all the time, it causes all kinds of problems in terms of balance and lets one dimensional players over perform. (e.g. ByuN with Terran in 2016)
We had that for a time with Zerg in 2018 with Ravens, but they nerfed them to hell because Serral couldn't handle them even though good Zerg players like Rogue and Dark were having success at that time. (Rogue won Katowice beating Maru. Dark lost 4-3 then 4-2 to Maru)
TvZ is largely fine and has been a good matchup forever, despite one participant being aggressive generally and the other defensive.
I’m fine with that dynamic personally, think it adds character to the races. Certain styles suit different people and I like that aspect of the game.
Issues arise when the expected aggressor can’t be reliably aggressive without going all-in though, absolutely.
On September 30 2019 03:31 Wombat_NI wrote: The race is so, so reliant currently on tricking a Zerg opponent, exemplified by stuff like double hidden Stargate off an ostensible Robo opener isn’t some weird sOs one time build but a relatively common one.
And said trickery has been nerfed pretty harshly with changes to warp prisms and overlord speed. PvZ has definitely hit a rough patch.
Which should not have happened IMO. It really felt like a patch for a problem that Zergs had already solved, or at least got a lot better at dealing with.
Change maybe one of those things sure, but both at once after Protoss’ PvZ spike seemed to have reverted was overkill IMO.
On September 29 2019 11:35 phodacbiet wrote: Why do players like Rogue and Dark look down or think they are better than Serral in macro game? Serral is a macro/end game Zerg. Both of these guys have played Serral in the late game before and got stomped. Silly Rogue.
Dark is at least 1 tier below Rogue in ZvZ. He just always had a big mouth. Top form Rogue is on Serrals level for sure. And this kind of mentality can only help his chances. Same with Time, he almost swept Serral in Asus ROG. I find it much better then shitting pants even before the match starts, like all the foreigners except Reynor do every single time.
Serral is a god, but he is not unbeatable. I wish more players werent so scared of him, we might see closer games even in the foreignerland.
On September 29 2019 11:35 phodacbiet wrote: Why do players like Rogue and Dark look down or think they are better than Serral in macro game? Serral is a macro/end game Zerg. Both of these guys have played Serral in the late game before and got stomped. Silly Rogue.
Dark is at least 1 tier below Rogue in ZvZ. He just always had a big mouth. Top form Rogue is on Serrals level for sure. And this kind of mentality can only help his chances. Same with Time, he almost swept Serral in Asus ROG. I find it much better then shitting pants even before the match starts, like all the foreigners except Reynor do every single time.
Serral is a god, but he is not unbeatable. I wish more players werent so scared of him, we might see closer games even in the foreignerland.
Alternatively if they approached him with a ‘I’m fucked and have nothing to lose’ mentality that would probably give better games too.
They seem to do the worst of both worlds, they play like they have the pressure of expectation, but they don’t expect to be able to win. If they either believed they could win or said fuck it I’ll play my game and see what happens, both of those I think we’d see better performances.
So even Rogue calls himself a Patchzerg now. SexyBoi likes to run around naked. Find it hilarious if he really said that he found out in Group of 16 only that now is a good time to practice.
Even pro's cant seem to figure out that the issue with Zerg is the map pool. While I'll agree infestor is definitely strong, the map pool is what's causing this nonsense WCS after WCS.
I think the map pool is part of the problem, but I would also love to see some more interesting upgrades added to the game. An upgrade for archons that require both DT and HT tech, an upgrade for voids that requires DT and Fleet beacon, upgrade to zealots stalkers that requires DT Tech to be completed. For zerg, I would love to see upgrades for roaches, Lings, and Hydras that would be researched at the Hive, maybe upgrades for marines / Mauraders that requires BC tech to be completed first, just as examples. I would love for these upgrades to be $$$, but allow these more basic units to compete with late game death balls
On September 30 2019 05:04 balzac1 wrote: I think the map pool is part of the problem, but I would also love to see some more interesting upgrades added to the game. An upgrade for archons that require both DT and HT tech, an upgrade for voids that requires DT and Fleet beacon, upgrade to zealots stalkers that requires DT Tech to be completed. For zerg, I would love to see upgrades for roaches, Lings, and Hydras that would be researched at the Hive, maybe upgrades for marines / Mauraders that requires BC tech to be completed first, just as examples. I would love for these upgrades to be $$$, but allow these more basic units to compete with late game death balls
Zerglings are already insanely good late game for harassment, especially since both Protoss and Terran have worse map vision than Zerg. Anything beyond Adrenal would make it impossible for a non-Zerg player to move out without going super all in.
I've said this before and will say it again: BL infestors killed sc2 at the end of WoL, letting other games shifting this one great E-Sport, and now, this pathetic excuse of a "balanced game" will put the final nail in the coffin of sc2.
On September 29 2019 23:59 BisuDagger wrote: At what patch made zerg this powerful in the late game or has it always been this strong in LoTV? Wasn't Zerg essentially the same in 2018? I'm just curious if it took since LoTV release for Zerg to find its true potential and it had been there the whole time.
Imo Zerg has the strongest late game since the raven nerf in 2018. It was just a matter of time before zerg figure out and refine their use of the Mass Infestor BL play. And even before this nerf they wasn't that many terrans who was winning using this style it was very hard to master. Only Maru and TY did it. In the opposite BL/Infestor is pretty easy to master every good zerg even at subtop level can beat top player T and P with it.
And also nydus buff. Nydus are INCREDIBLY powerfull in mid to late game transition it allow the zergs to earn so many time and force both T and P to stay in the defensive position when they want to eat the zerg player when he does his transition to full late game.
Since it turned into serious discussion, my honest opinion after so many years of sc2 (since beta) is this: Protoss is badly designed and for anything to change it should be re-designed. Remove the gimmicks, add buffs and design the race in someway that playing it (and vs it) it enjoyable expirience and not felt like I'm cheating or got cheated on every ladder game, because it is so heavily focused on all-ins due to mechanics of the race.
This way we could balance it better without turning it into the under or over powered race it usualy is.
On September 30 2019 05:20 NotSoHappy wrote: Since it turned into serious discussion, my honest opinion after so many years of sc2 (since beta) is this: Protoss is badly designed and for anything to change it should be re-designed. Remove the gimmicks, add buffs and design the race in someway that playing it (and vs it) it enjoyable expirience and not felt like I'm cheating or got cheated on every ladder game, because it is so heavily focused on all-ins due to mechanics of the race.
This way we could balance it better without turning it into the under or over powered race it usualy is.
Is Protoss badly designed though? Aspects of it are sure but there’s plenty of things in the game that are badly designed IMO, it’s just how they relate to each other.
Terran bio for example, high DPS, super microable. Which is cool independently, but designing a game when you have this super microable composition that does damage super quickly when other races don’t have those options makes things wonky too.
Maybe they should nerf infested terran or come up with a photon cannon upgrade (requiring a lot of tech so that it doesn't buff cannon rush) or something so that protoss doesn't need to keep so much army back to deal with zergling/infested terran harass. It seems to me that, very often in many ZvP lategames, the protoss moves out with everything they have and the zerg has enough to hold while inflicting devastating damage with a bunch of lings on the other side of the map. If cannons were better maybe they would be able to make that situation less common. Still, I wonder if what Rogue did with the infestors and lings in game 3 was actually a really good new idea or if Trap just dealt with it poorly.
On September 30 2019 05:20 NotSoHappy wrote: Since it turned into serious discussion, my honest opinion after so many years of sc2 (since beta) is this: Protoss is badly designed and for anything to change it should be re-designed. Remove the gimmicks, add buffs and design the race in someway that playing it (and vs it) it enjoyable expirience and not felt like I'm cheating or got cheated on every ladder game, because it is so heavily focused on all-ins due to mechanics of the race.
This way we could balance it better without turning it into the under or over powered race it usualy is.
Is Protoss badly designed though? Aspects of it are sure but there’s plenty of things in the game that are badly designed IMO, it’s just how they relate to each other.
Terran bio for example, high DPS, super microable. Which is cool independently, but designing a game when you have this super microable composition that does damage super quickly when other races don’t have those options makes things wonky too.
I mainly had in mind WG mechanics that neglect deffenders advantage, how harrass is designed and how playing macro is not so viable with Protoss as with other races. I'd add Msc here if they hadn't removed it and few more things, but I'm not so informed what is wrong and how it could be changed.
Speaking about bio - that's the thing, that when you play bio and you learn how it works it's fun. While playing Z I'd rather play vs bio terran than mech, because it's enganging and fast-paced.
Then with Protoss for most time we had death-bally units that complimented each other well when in a death-ball.
I feel like protoss is missing something that could make it more fun race to play on every level.
On September 30 2019 05:26 Anc13nt wrote: Maybe they should nerf infested terran or come up with a photon cannon upgrade (requiring a lot of tech so that it doesn't buff cannon rush) or something so that protoss doesn't need to keep so much army back to deal with zergling/infested terran harass. It seems to me that, very often in many ZvP lategames, the protoss moves out with everything they have and the zerg has enough to hold while inflicting devastating damage with a bunch of lings on the other side of the map. If cannons were better maybe they would be able to make that situation less common. Still, I wonder if what Rogue did with the infestors and lings in game 3 was actually a really good new idea or if Trap just dealt with it poorly.
Or don't give to the map pool so many zerg favoring maps. That would be a good start And behold, no nerfs!
On September 30 2019 01:37 waiting2Bbanned wrote: @paddyz
Leaving aside the mental gymnastics you had to do to ignore the Aligulac balance graphs (how hard is it to flat-out deny the right-most end of the graph where all 3 races are basically equal LOL), I'm just gonna address the part where it seems to you that Trap's play was as great as it could be, while Rogue was just carried over by the easiest race to play: go look at some of Neeb's wins over Z if you want to see what good PvZ is like.
As far as the 'Trap is the best PvZ player, but nothing to do against the big bad zerg' theory, you can look at Zest's showing against Rogue in the quarterfinal, where he actually put up a fight despite being far from his best form this year and PvZ being his worst MU.
For the record, I don't think Trap is 'a shit player', just that he was massively outplayed in this finals and perhaps he might've done better if Rogue wasn't his teammate.
I also don't think Dark is a shit player just because he got outplayed this time in the semis, although you might be able to find some balance reason for that and I can't wait to read about it
Players have ups and downs, sometimes they do great for a whole tournament just to fall apart in the finals (see soO's GSL finals), while other players struggle through a tournament only to shine on the last day. It's why we play these games instead of just handing out trophies based on ladder ranking.
He was addressing "high level play instead of shit play"
The overall balance graph is effected by results from much lower rated player.
The history/periods section is only from the top 5 which is the highest level play, that is logical, not mental gymnastics. I am referring to the same site. Only talking about balance at the top here as per his request.
I never said Traps play was perfect or that he is the best at PvZ, I even said he was 241 rated below the highest rated PvZ.
Rouge played Terribly vs Zest and Zest has it as his worst matchup because its the worst matchup in the game.
I am not going to judge if Zest played far from his best form, its tricky to judge a Protoss based on the builds they go with in a matchup that trends towards loss without a big risk working, Zest was effective but ultimately its up to the Zerg if he wins it seems.
One can't really say massively outplayed if its an unfair matchup (which Rogue even admitted) where one side has to resort to risks that shouldn't work out. Zerg won 66% of the ZvPs that tournament.
"I also don't think Dark is a shit player just because he got outplayed this time in the semis, although you might be able to find some balance reason for that and I can't wait to read about it ". Petty
Trap has been the most consistent protoss all year, he won all of his PvPs and PvTs and only lost to Zergs, the constant is PvZ.
Stick to logic and stats next time I won't partake in some ad hominem petty back and forth.
I think infestor should be a 3 supply unit, or removing pathogen gland upgrade.As for nyddus, it should be nerfed when launched off creep to diminish its power for mid game agressive options while still being strong for lategame.
On September 29 2019 18:11 Penev wrote: Nydus worms should just have one head per butt, adjust butt cost accordingly. And the return of BL/Fester happened when ITs were buffed again. Just completely REMOVE that ability please; You shouldn't be able to save energy to get a bunch of marines on top of your existing army and when made useless like before why have them at all?
Also lol at the people posting about the trivial Serral bit
return of the bl/infestor happened because of the feedback nerf + nydus
On September 30 2019 05:26 Anc13nt wrote: Maybe they should nerf infested terran or come up with a photon cannon upgrade (requiring a lot of tech so that it doesn't buff cannon rush) or something so that protoss doesn't need to keep so much army back to deal with zergling/infested terran harass. It seems to me that, very often in many ZvP lategames, the protoss moves out with everything they have and the zerg has enough to hold while inflicting devastating damage with a bunch of lings on the other side of the map. If cannons were better maybe they would be able to make that situation less common. Still, I wonder if what Rogue did with the infestors and lings in game 3 was actually a really good new idea or if Trap just dealt with it poorly.
Ah, yes. A why for protoss to defend bases. Something that could be used defensively with little to no offensive capabilities. Something to help push back Zerg camping overlords that cannot be hit.
Let's see.... We could call it.... The mothership core!!!!!
We kid but protoss has never recovered from that loss.
While I support any and all criticism of Zerg as a race and love it when even their own players will admit things are extremely problematic, I wonder if Rogue is overstating things a bit to lessen the criticism that Trap might be receiving. With the 3 Zerg Kongs (soO in everything. Dark in pretty much everything but particularly GSL ro4. Rogue in GSL ro8) getting the monkey off of their back, Trap's 2019 starts to look very much like soO or ByuL. Yes, he puts an asterisk next to his GSL title, but with a Blizzcon title, 2 ro4s, a Katowice title, plus a few weekenders, his legacy is pretty secure. Well, at least until the next TL article calls him a two-time world champion Patch Zerg...
I don't understand people who try to argue that Protoss needs to be completely redesigned.
It's just not going to happen. Changes that large would effectively only be possible in a whole new expansion, it would fundamentally change the whole game and require new units and changes to Zerg and Terran too.
SC2 is in the legacy games team at Blizzard. They do not have the capacity or indeed authority to completely redesign it that way. And furthermore who is to say that such a redesign would even be better anyway? It would very likely just lead to new issues.
RE Rogues specific comments, I do think it's partly to save face of Trap after sweeping him. Zerg is certainly in a strong place now, but I think there's definitely still room for the meta to flux back. I'd like to see more HT use to hardcounter counter infestors with feedback, and likewise I think disruptors have great potential to clean them out as well.
On September 30 2019 05:20 NotSoHappy wrote: Since it turned into serious discussion, my honest opinion after so many years of sc2 (since beta) is this: Protoss is badly designed and for anything to change it should be re-designed. Remove the gimmicks, add buffs and design the race in someway that playing it (and vs it) it enjoyable expirience and not felt like I'm cheating or got cheated on every ladder game, because it is so heavily focused on all-ins due to mechanics of the race.
This way we could balance it better without turning it into the under or over powered race it usualy is.
Are you a protoss player? I guess so. What makes you think like this? I'm sick of seeing such statements, but I usually don't respond to them because they come from Terran/Zerg players who simply hating on protoss and cannot be taken seriously. The funny thing about these statements is that they never sufficiently reasoned and usually come with flawed logic. In my opinion toss isn't badly designed race overall. Most people talking about toss design confuse cause and effect: majority of the bad aspects of toss design or what usually called "gimmicks" stems from design features of other races. Let me elaborate on that. When Blizzard decided to make bio units in SC2 so microable and high DPS it led to the fact that toss became super reliant on splash damage and tend to clump into deathball. Everyone was hating on MSC and its "one click defense" but how we ended up having such abomination in our game? It started with someone in the balance team think: "hey, lets make already strong drop play even better and give medivacs speed boost". Of course, they had to give protoss something to counterbalance new medivacs and that's how we got that band-aid mechanic. Tempest, the unit that was added solely to counter broodlords, still struggles to find any use besides cheese play despite repeated attemps of redesign. Meanwhile the broodlord, unit which is the reason for tempest existence and which plagues SC2 since 2012 and to this day seems fine design-wise for balance team. Everyone seems to hate recall aka "skillcall", but it have to be in the game as long as we have speedivacs and as long as zerg units significantly more mobile than toss units due to creep mechanic. So I'm against complete toss re-design. I like SC2 protoss, this race is unique in its own way.
On the other hand, the really badly designed race in my opinion is zerg. Besides the already obvious Broodlord-infestors and nyduses they have the cheapest production (no need to invest into actual production buildings like toss or terran, 1 building is enough to produce required unit in unlimited numbers), instantaneous tech switches, plethora of free units, legal maphack in the form of creep spread (When they already have overlords since sc1).
On September 30 2019 09:02 Xain0n wrote: Discussing balance is one thing, these claims of certain races being "badly designed" are definitely uncalled for.
Uncalled for? We've had at least one whiny player say that a race should be deleted multiple times.
Balance is fine. It all comes down to maps, maps and maps. Though most have decent win percentages, they are simply too open and large. It forces the other races to be the aggressor or play greedily. There should be areas that allow T/P to cross decent parts of the map and feel safe to hug corners if a Zerg swarms.
Zerg's shouldn't be able to get 2 massive flanks in every section of the map. Ephemeron has the tight bridges, but even then destroying the rocks allows the map to be open as can be.
On September 30 2019 09:02 Xain0n wrote: Discussing balance is one thing, these claims of certain races being "badly designed" are definitely uncalled for.
I’m not sure it’s uncalled for at all, I just think it’s wrong.
PvP is really strategically dynamic, there are lots of viable compositions, there’s a lot of early and mid game benefits from good micro etc, there’s comeback potential etc etc, Protoss itself has a bunch of interesting elements to it.
How that intersects with Zerg, yeah it’s a bad matchup but such problems are always blamed on Protoss and how it’s designed.
Terran and Zerg are just as ‘badly designed’ as Protoss, indeed I think Terran are the worst of all given how everything intersects.
On September 30 2019 09:02 Xain0n wrote: Discussing balance is one thing, these claims of certain races being "badly designed" are definitely uncalled for.
I’m not sure it’s uncalled for at all, I just think it’s wrong.
PvP is really strategically dynamic, there are lots of viable compositions, there’s a lot of early and mid game benefits from good micro etc, there’s comeback potential etc etc, Protoss itself has a bunch of interesting elements to it.
How that intersects with Zerg, yeah it’s a bad matchup but such problems are always blamed on Protoss and how it’s designed.
Terran and Zerg are just as ‘badly designed’ as Protoss, indeed I think Terran are the worst of all given how everything intersects.
Hm maybe it would have been better if I said those claims are out of place, I find them frankly embarassing.
On September 30 2019 09:22 TentativePanda wrote: Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch?
I am more interested in a Reynor vs Rogue match, to be honest.
As for Zerg becoming more imba, I am fairly sure Terran can do very well in TvZ with proper builds; Overlord Speed's cost reduction, coupled with Protoss being nerfed in the early/mid game may have made ZvP a Zerg favored matchup at every stage of the game, late is actually more even due to IT's nerf but it seems not to be enough at the moment.
On September 29 2019 20:19 LUK_21 wrote: Maru wins 5 gslwith terran, all is gud. Rogue wins1time with zerg, clearly its super op and imbalanced Kappa
Last year was way more diverse in terms of races that did well and the large skew in balance was mostly (though not entirely) Serral's doing.
Maru was literally the only terran player to win any premier tournament in 2018.
There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments last year. 7 were won by zerg (6x Serral, 1x Rogue), 3 by terran (all Maru), 2 by protoss (Stats and Classic). Out of the 24 finalists 9 were zerg, 11 were protoss and 4 (!) were terran.
There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments this year (so far, 2 more coming) and 8 of them were won by a zerg (3x Serral, 2x Raynor, 1x Soo, 1x Dark, 1x Rogue), 3 by protoss (1x Stats, 1x Neeb, 1x Classic) and 1 by terran (1x Maru). Out of the 24 finalists 14 were zerg, 7 were protoss and 3 (!) were terran.
Can look at it however you please but if you organise by prize pool, you can see Protoss haven't won a big tournament. Since start of 2018 Protoss have only won tournaments with a prize pool of less than 30k and WCS America (not as competitive). As well as 2nd place finishes.
Out of the 22 biggest tournaments (based on prize pool) since the start of 2018 Protoss have not won any .(intentionally leaving out WCS America where Neeb beat Scarlet once).
Wins out of the 22 Tournements with a prize pool over 30k since start of 2018:
For Protoss: 0 Wins
For Terran: 6 Wins
Maru: (WESG in 2018), (2018 GSL S1),(2018 GSL S2),(2018 GSL S3 vs TY in final), (2019 GSL S1)
Innovation: (WESG in 2019)
For Zerg: 16 Wins
Serral: (2018 WCS Global Finals), (2018 WCS 1), (WCS 2), (WCS 3), (WCS 4 vs Reynor in final), (2018 GSL v world), (2019 GSL v World vs Elazer in final), (2019 WCS Spring), (2019 WCS Fall vs Reynor in final)
Reynor: (2019 WCS Winter vs Serral in final), (2019 WCS Summer vs Serral in final)
Rogue: (IEM XII World Championship), (2019 GSL S3)
soO: (IEM XIII Katowice)
Dark: (2019 GSL S2)
Scarlet: (IEM XII PyeongChang)
Protoss players made more money than Terran players in 2018, in spite of Maru carrying the whole race on his back in term of results. Props to Rogue for telling things like they are, but I don’t think blizzard will patch anything before blizzcon. Maybe we could have a new map pool time tho?
LMAO. You people have been hating Protoss so much for the past 10 years that you would literally come up with any bs that goes through your tiny whiny brain to put the blame on the protoss players or the race's design. Open your eyes and see what the real problem with the zerg race is.
On September 30 2019 09:02 Xain0n wrote: Discussing balance is one thing, these claims of certain races being "badly designed" are definitely uncalled for.
Uncalled for? We've had at least one whiny player say that a race should be deleted multiple times.
I do honestly think, and have been thinking for a long time, that infestor should legimitly be either remove from the game or change drasticly (something akin to the SW change when it became a completly different unit)
It's a unit that has almost never been either completly useless or completly overpowered. No one likes using them, no one likes playing against them. They are hugly and so stupidly large that you need to give them the ability to move underground as to not fuck up every other unit pathing.
Fungal is an alright ability, it can create some neat scenario with other units, but both neural and infested terran are terrible. Neural is a gimmick that produce late game fight that are totally impossible to understand to even the most veteran of player. Infested terran have just no place in the game, you can't have just a few of them (the way the current auto-turret work, or even SH) because infestor come way to late in the game to harass and aren't mobile enough, so you need an absolute fuck ton of them to do anything, in witch case you either absolutly never use them because you need to build 10 infestor and use all their energy (like in HOTS) or they buff them and suddenlly your 60 infested terrans blow up a late game army.
Infestor being in the game block so many other interesting way to play the game as zerg and I feel like it's very possible to balance the game without the infestor in the game. Obviously some buff would be needed to zerg anti-air but it open up so many more possibilty.
With that said, maybe Blizz has a magical patch in store, I don't think I'm the only one who never thought they would see the raven beeing a cool units.
On September 29 2019 11:35 phodacbiet wrote: Why do players like Rogue and Dark look down or think they are better than Serral in macro game? Serral is a macro/end game Zerg. Both of these guys have played Serral in the late game before and got stomped. Silly Rogue.
he just should say, no, I am just a loser, how can I beat Serral, he is a god.
I'm glad that he pointed out the map pool. The map pool right now is ridiculous, even if Zerg late game wasn't stupid strong vs Protoss they still have a massive advantage because of the stupid maps.
I know the map pool is community voted on, but at some point Blizz needs to make an executive decision and veto certain maps from coming to the pool to protect the pool from becoming far too favoring to one race over the others. Having a pool of maps that are all gigantic is always going to favor Zerg regardless of the rest of the balance of the game.
I agree with most of what has been said here. The infestor and the nydus are both way too much for protoss to reasonably handle right now. The nydus rush builds are still incredibly hard to hold because they require special preparation that completely deviates from standard play, but this map pool and the overlord speed cost buff have both exacerbated the issue by both making it harder to scout in time, and making it so zerg is now guaranteed to get an overlord into the base. The infestor is back to how it was in WOL, and has way too much utility for the cost, but now protoss (and to a lesser extent, terran) have few if any actual counters to them once there are enough of them out. The infestor issue isn't going to go away unless they either undo the feedback nerf or find some other way to make it so protoss can kill them without having to sacrifice a bunch of units to fungals and neurals. Either that or do something about infested terrans. The only way infestors seem to die right now is if the zerg misclicks them when moving them.
On September 30 2019 10:26 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm glad that he pointed out the map pool. The map pool right now is ridiculous, even if Zerg late game wasn't stupid strong vs Protoss they still have a massive advantage because of the stupid maps.
I know the map pool is community voted on, but at some point Blizz needs to make an executive decision and veto certain maps from coming to the pool to protect the pool from becoming far too favoring to one race over the others. Having a pool of maps that are all gigantic is always going to favor Zerg regardless of the rest of the balance of the game.
This is one of the first map pools since I started playing again almost 2 years ago where I've wished I had more than 3 vetoes. The maps are way too big and open and it makes PvZ straight up not fun to play anymore. A lot of the thirds are wide open with few places to effectively place walls, which has made roach/ravager busts, hydra busts, ling floods, and the like way more potent than normal. The openness also severely hinders protoss all-ins and timing, which are basically all protoss has left against zerg right now while also making highly mobile builds like muta builds even stronger. I don't mind the maps for PvT and PvP, but for PvZ they're horrid.
On September 30 2019 09:22 TentativePanda wrote: Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch?
I am more interested in a Reynor vs Rogue match, to be honest.
Right on. That would be a very epic 3-2 series in a bo5. It's pretty much a toss-up on who would win, but if I had to bet, I'd say Rogue.
On September 30 2019 01:37 waiting2Bbanned wrote: @paddyz
Leaving aside the mental gymnastics you had to do to ignore the Aligulac balance graphs (how hard is it to flat-out deny the right-most end of the graph where all 3 races are basically equal LOL), I'm just gonna address the part where it seems to you that Trap's play was as great as it could be, while Rogue was just carried over by the easiest race to play: go look at some of Neeb's wins over Z if you want to see what good PvZ is like.
As far as the 'Trap is the best PvZ player, but nothing to do against the big bad zerg' theory, you can look at Zest's showing against Rogue in the quarterfinal, where he actually put up a fight despite being far from his best form this year and PvZ being his worst MU.
For the record, I don't think Trap is 'a shit player', just that he was massively outplayed in this finals and perhaps he might've done better if Rogue wasn't his teammate.
I also don't think Dark is a shit player just because he got outplayed this time in the semis, although you might be able to find some balance reason for that and I can't wait to read about it
Players have ups and downs, sometimes they do great for a whole tournament just to fall apart in the finals (see soO's GSL finals), while other players struggle through a tournament only to shine on the last day. It's why we play these games instead of just handing out trophies based on ladder ranking.
Rouge played Terribly vs Zest and Zest has it as his worst matchup because its the worst matchup in the game.
I am not going to judge if Zest played far from his best form, its tricky to judge a Protoss based on the builds they go with in a matchup that trends towards loss without a big risk working, Zest was effective but ultimately its up to the Zerg if he wins it seems.
What this translates to is "P does well = Z played bad, P doesn't do well = Z is OP"
One can't really say massively outplayed if its an unfair matchup (which Rogue even admitted) where one side has to resort to risks that shouldn't work out. Zerg won 66% of the ZvPs that tournament.
Wait, so if Z does an all-in that's an auto-win, but if P does one that's just "risks that shouldn't work out"??
"I also don't think Dark is a shit player just because he got outplayed this time in the semis, although you might be able to find some balance reason for that and I can't wait to read about it ". Petty
Translation: "I have the monopoly on being right, any other opinion is just petty"
..or maybe just show us on the doll where the sarcasm hurt you?
I don't think that's how comments work..
Stick to logic and stats next time I won't partake in some ad hominem petty back and forth.
Wait, what?? Again, a different opinion is not an 'ad hominem'. If you're not sure, look it up
On September 30 2019 11:19 geokilla wrote: What if we had better Protoss and Terran maps? That should help with balance right?
No... that is not a solution in anyway. Creating a map that gives the other two races a better edge is a bandaid at best and doesn't fix the real issue. There are clear bug exploits at play too that need to be fixed immediately, as far as everything else, they should have looked into the cost effectiveness of everything much sooner.
What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?: Infestors cannot cast while burrowed. Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap) Nydus network takes twice the build time when not summoned on creep, unit deploy speed should be significantly decreased, and price should be reverted to the older cost (similar to the protoss warp in, and instant mobility should not be that cheap, or that quick). Queen range should be decreased an increment.
What if Nydus can only summon a limited number of nydus worms? Like a vulture had 3 spider mines in bw
Not so serious thoughts: Broodlords should have to pay for broodlings like Carriers have to pay for interceptors.(and fix the range bug)
On September 30 2019 10:26 Vindicare605 wrote: I know the map pool is community voted on
Where the hell is this coming from?
Back to the subject: Poor rogue, he hasn't got a chance to meet the famous tl terran whining squad (alongside with blizzard balance team, or are they the same people?). They would definitely clarify why he is wrong about everything. That blizzcon/gsl champion (and his buddy serral) just don't know what they are talking about. Why can't they understand one obvious goddamn thing: warprism and forcefields are most annoying mechanics ever that are so frustrating to play against! Why does everyone has to produce units in their base, while protoss can warp it anywhere on the map? It just ruins the fun for most skilled players out there! For gods sake!
On a serious note: Is it just me or there is still no news on balance team resigning? Because if 2 (two!) WORLD CHAMPIONS opinions on their level of competence given within 2 weeks period are not enough, then i don't know what is.
On September 30 2019 09:22 TentativePanda wrote: Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch?
I am more interested in a Reynor vs Rogue match, to be honest.
As for Zerg becoming more imba, I am fairly sure Terran can do very well in TvZ with proper builds; Overlord Speed's cost reduction, coupled with Protoss being nerfed in the early/mid game may have made ZvP a Zerg favored matchup at every stage of the game, late is actually more even due to IT's nerf but it seems not to be enough at the moment.
Agreed. Actually, I believe map changes to be a far better tool for finetuning balance.
I would only change those units where there is a common consensus that they are not fun to play against (independent of balance).
On September 30 2019 09:22 TentativePanda wrote: Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch?
I am more interested in a Reynor vs Rogue match, to be honest.
As for Zerg becoming more imba, I am fairly sure Terran can do very well in TvZ with proper builds; Overlord Speed's cost reduction, coupled with Protoss being nerfed in the early/mid game may have made ZvP a Zerg favored matchup at every stage of the game, late is actually more even due to IT's nerf but it seems not to be enough at the moment.
Damn you better tell Ty and Maru about dem proper builds I'm sure they didn't tryed them yet...
I highly doubt Blizzard will do a thing before BlizzCon though right? There is not enough time left for testing some tweaks and they are probably preparing the big post blizzcon patch (or a text announcing the end of WCS à la HOTS? Hopefully not!). Same for maps, ~1 month left before BlizzCon is not enough time for a new map pool.
So it will be interesting to see how players "adapt" to the current state of the game. Bear in mind when discussing what Rogue said tho, that Trap independently of the PvZ state, was not a really good PvZer anyways.
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote: What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?: Infestors cannot cast while burrowed. Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap) Nydus network takes twice the build time when not summoned on creep, unit deploy speed should be significantly decreased, and price should be reverted to the older cost (similar to the protoss warp in, and instant mobility should not be that cheap, or that quick). Queen range should be decreased an increment.
What if Nydus can only summon a limited number of nydus worms? Like a vulture had 3 spider mines in bw
Not so serious thoughts: Broodlords should have to pay for broodlings like Carriers have to pay for interceptors.(and fix the range bug)
According to Wiki, Chess has last been around at least 1500 years.
It has symmetrical (both sides have the same units) design.
SC2 while 'playable', unless it's a same race vs same race (no-one complains here about balance), is asymmetrical and by design gives advantages in certain phases of the game.
And this is where the problem arises, straying too far from symmetrical design inherently gives too much advantage (and limits the other player's options) to one player at a certain phase in the game.
In Chess, you have to earn your way through each phase of the game, nothing is given.
Ye, you definitely need Einstein to figure out how to fix zerg late game... - move nydus to hive and increase its cost to 75/75. - remove infestor burrow move - increase infestor supply to 3
On September 30 2019 09:02 Xain0n wrote: Discussing balance is one thing, these claims of certain races being "badly designed" are definitely uncalled for.
Uncalled for? We've had at least one whiny player say that a race should be deleted multiple times.
The Balance team are already doing that with Protoss
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote: What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?: Infestors cannot cast while burrowed.
Sure, infestors need to be nerfed in a big way, personally I feel that the unit might be balanced if they delete neural (which is a very badly designed ability) but this nerf is a step in the right direction but not enough by itself.
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote: Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap)
Erm what why?
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote: Nydus network takes twice the build time when not summoned on creep, unit deploy speed should be significantly decreased, and price should be reverted to the older cost (similar to the protoss warp in, and instant mobility should not be that cheap, or that quick).
No, you shouldn't quadra nerf anything, might as well delete the nydus than which is a bad idea.
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote: Queen range should be decreased an increment.
There is a reason queen range is what it is, zerg anti air arrive at hydra den or spire, nerfed queens would not be able to handle oracles, phoenix or banshees until those techs unlock. Bad idea.
In general I agree with what have been said by others, the racial design with how different races are strong at different points in the game is bad. When protoss had the ultimate late game that was bad for the game and now when zerg has it its equally bad. All races needs a balance end game, it is fine if its not finely balanced between early-mid game, there can different phases were different races excell there but not in late game. The infestor needs to be heavily nerfed to tone down the oppresive late game
On September 30 2019 09:22 TentativePanda wrote: Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch?
I am more interested in a Reynor vs Rogue match, to be honest.
As for Zerg becoming more imba, I am fairly sure Terran can do very well in TvZ with proper builds; Overlord Speed's cost reduction, coupled with Protoss being nerfed in the early/mid game may have made ZvP a Zerg favored matchup at every stage of the game, late is actually more even due to IT's nerf but it seems not to be enough at the moment.
Damn you better tell Ty and Maru about dem proper builds I'm sure they didn't tryed them yet...
Ah sure, it's not like players need time to adjust after a new patch; just like the oppressive, overpowered Protoss timings that were figured out in the end last patch.
I think we have seen too many Thors and not enough Ghosts in lategame TvZ, but I might be wrong of course; time will tell!
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote: What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?: Infestors cannot cast while burrowed. Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap) Nydus network takes twice the build time when not summoned on creep, unit deploy speed should be significantly decreased, and price should be reverted to the older cost (similar to the protoss warp in, and instant mobility should not be that cheap, or that quick). Queen range should be decreased an increment.
What if Nydus can only summon a limited number of nydus worms? Like a vulture had 3 spider mines in bw
Not so serious thoughts: Broodlords should have to pay for broodlings like Carriers have to pay for interceptors.(and fix the range bug)
LOL, maybe delete Zerg completely ?
Very informative comment ....
Besides the Queen change, these are good ideas. But instead of the overseer costing supply maybe make observer not cost supply. Nydus - something NEEDS to be done here. Long overdue Queen - Nah, would change too much on the overall balance. Slippery slope
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote: What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?: Infestors cannot cast while burrowed. Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap) Nydus network takes twice the build time when not summoned on creep, unit deploy speed should be significantly decreased, and price should be reverted to the older cost (similar to the protoss warp in, and instant mobility should not be that cheap, or that quick). Queen range should be decreased an increment.
What if Nydus can only summon a limited number of nydus worms? Like a vulture had 3 spider mines in bw
Not so serious thoughts: Broodlords should have to pay for broodlings like Carriers have to pay for interceptors.(and fix the range bug)
LOL, maybe delete Zerg completely ?
Very informative comment ....
Besides the Queen change, these are good ideas. But instead of the overseer costing supply maybe make observer not cost supply. Nydus - something NEEDS to be done here. Long overdue Queen - Nah, would change too much on the overall balance. Slippery slope
I’m down with changing some of these, just once at a time. I feel last patch nerfing both the prism range, plus decreasing ovie speed at the same time, it’s too much at once and it’s hard to isolate the effects of each change individually and if they’re good or not.
As a general change I just think would be less stupid, Nydus unload speed is insane, tone it down a little. It just feels silly, even if it were 100% balanced somehow.
It’s so all or nothing in its current iteration. You either stop it going up, in which case it’s useless to the Zerg, or it pops and everything is in your base.
If units didn’t pop instantly you’d have more interactions and decision making to do. You can still stop the nydus, or you could pull some army that might be enough to deal with smaller chunks coming through, or do that via a warp in. If you miscalculate or skimp on defence the Zerg can still get a large force in.
Prisms are scary tools too but at least you can see how big a warpin is and pull units accordingly. With a Nydus you basically have to pull your whole army because of how much could potentially pop out.
Plus the load speed being what it is makes escaping super easy too, if your opponent does happen to have sufficient defences in place you just leave.
I want Zerg to have Nydus play as both a lategame reinforcement and positional option and as a way to punish opponents who skimp on defences at home. It’s definitely not something I’d want neutered from the game, especially as Zerg have a hard time breaking Terrans who are well set up.
At present it’s too low-risk, high reward and players are just spamming them until one gets up.
I think altering the load/unload speed is probably the best tweak for both nerfing nydus all-ins but also late-game nydus play. A cost nerf would help with the all-ins but I don’t think it would affect lategame much at all given Zerg banks. Creating separate nydus networks would definitely help in the lategame, more the BW style of how they worked, but would have neglible impact really on the nydus all-ins that don’t use multiple worms all that much
Gr8, now thanks to pro play, Blizz will mess with our game-play experience. Balance is in a good place, the only frustrating thing atm is the stupid long recall CD. The time when blizz abandons SC2 is close, I just hope it will be, balance-wise in spot that is at least as good as the current situation.
On September 30 2019 17:43 Parcelleus wrote: According to Wiki, Chess has last been around at least 1500 years.
It has symmetrical (both sides have the same units) design.
SC2 while 'playable', unless it's a same race vs same race (no-one complains here about balance), is asymmetrical and by design gives advantages in certain phases of the game.
And this is where the problem arises, straying too far from symmetrical design inherently gives too much advantage (and limits the other player's options) to one player at a certain phase in the game.
In Chess, you have to earn your way through each phase of the game, nothing is given.
I do not forsee SC2 lasting as long as Chess.
It’s entirely how you do asymmetric design to me, it’s not inherently a bad thing for an RTS game, probably the opposite.
The original Starcraft was partly so huge because it had 3 fully distinct factions both aesthetically and how they played in the game.
Assuming the factions are decently balanced, if they play differently they also reward differing skillsets, and players with different skills and weaknesses can find their race and style and be competitive. If we had just one race, say it was Terran but a smart player who wasn’t mechanically strong or good at micro, they’d just suck at the game, but maybe they’re great at understanding the game and prosper with Zerg.
There will always be an innate informational asymmetry anyway in any RTS game that includes a fog of war, even in mirror matchups.
While not being too deeply familiar with details I would:
A) Increase Nydus building time dramatically (for making spotting it easier) B) Increase Nydus HP to make it harder to destroy (but still easy to do during construction if properly spotted in time) C) Increase Nydus cost (slightly) D) Increase Nydus troop uploading time dramatically per unit (to make it so that Zerg must really commit to attack, as immediate retreat wouldn't be anymore possible, neither teleporting big detachments in and out within very small time frame.) Maybe enough long cooldown time that doesn't allow withdrawal of troops without long waiting time. D.1) There could be even so that Nydys worm can be open only to one direction, and if not set to send troops to other direction by a player, it would be impossible retreat. If set to "retreat-mode", then adequate cooldown would apply, and visa versa.
I have no idea what exactly could be proper times, cooldown, or pace in which units can be send in/out, but in its current state its seems little bit too advantageous for zerg.
However, as build and tactics its something I woundn't ever remove altogether from the game... exactly, because the balance.
Balance and design-wise, what I would like to see is casters costing more supply in general, infestors not being able to use spells while burrowed and neural having less cast range.
Trap's play was a little underwhelming. I think the fact they are teammates made Rogue very comfortable to drone up. Zerg is definitely strong, but more so when you know your opponent very well and feel like you can drone up safely and saturate your three bases quickly.
Or maybe Zerg is totally OP. I feel like we haven't seen Trap really try to harass that much. Been a couple days now, don't remember all the details, but it felt like there might have been a missed opportunity warping tons of Zealots or DTs (lategame).
Protoss has to be tricky and once Zerg has a slow "deathball" type army, Protoss either goes full tech route (which seemed to fail for Trap), or just stay at 160-170 supply and warp in a ridiculous amount of units in the main while pushing.
To be fair Rogue was godlike at defending such attempts. Well played, but I'm not sure I fully agree with the "it's all because of balance" mentality. Zerg does feel strong overall, I must concede.
On September 30 2019 11:14 Ben... wrote: I agree with most of what has been said here. The infestor and the nydus are both way too much for protoss to reasonably handle right now. The nydus rush builds are still incredibly hard to hold because they require special preparation that completely deviates from standard play, but this map pool and the overlord speed cost buff have both exacerbated the issue by both making it harder to scout in time, and making it so zerg is now guaranteed to get an overlord into the base. The infestor is back to how it was in WOL, and has way too much utility for the cost, but now protoss (and to a lesser extent, terran) have few if any actual counters to them once there are enough of them out. The infestor issue isn't going to go away unless they either undo the feedback nerf or find some other way to make it so protoss can kill them without having to sacrifice a bunch of units to fungals and neurals. Either that or do something about infested terrans. The only way infestors seem to die right now is if the zerg misclicks them when moving them.
On September 30 2019 10:26 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm glad that he pointed out the map pool. The map pool right now is ridiculous, even if Zerg late game wasn't stupid strong vs Protoss they still have a massive advantage because of the stupid maps.
I know the map pool is community voted on, but at some point Blizz needs to make an executive decision and veto certain maps from coming to the pool to protect the pool from becoming far too favoring to one race over the others. Having a pool of maps that are all gigantic is always going to favor Zerg regardless of the rest of the balance of the game.
This is one of the first map pools since I started playing again almost 2 years ago where I've wished I had more than 3 vetoes. The maps are way too big and open and it makes PvZ straight up not fun to play anymore. A lot of the thirds are wide open with few places to effectively place walls, which has made roach/ravager busts, hydra busts, ling floods, and the like way more potent than normal. The openness also severely hinders protoss all-ins and timing, which are basically all protoss has left against zerg right now while also making highly mobile builds like muta builds even stronger. I don't mind the maps for PvT and PvP, but for PvZ they're horrid.
Terrans don't like these maps vs either race. It's a Zerg map pool right now, and when you combine that with a Zerg advantage in late game PvZ, it's not the worst balance we've ever had but it looks much worse than it is because the maps are favoring the race that already has balance advantages. It's stupid.
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote: What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?: Infestors cannot cast while burrowed. Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap)
I like this. Overseers should cost 1 supply, the "supply-free" detection would be a spore, just like how T has turrets and P has cannons. Infestors not being able to cast while burrowed is good.
I think with Nydus, they should also make it so they don't spread creep by themselves, so queens can't pop through and spam tumors and then the T or P player can't build anything in their base anymore.
On September 30 2019 11:19 geokilla wrote: What if we had better Protoss and Terran maps? That should help with balance right?
No... that is not a solution in anyway. Creating a map that gives the other two races a better edge is a bandaid at best and doesn't fix the real issue. There are clear bug exploits at play too that need to be fixed immediately, as far as everything else, they should have looked into the cost effectiveness of everything much sooner.
The real issue is the totality of things. You can't divorce the maps from balance because they are an essential part of determining balance. Take Zerglings. If it weren't for chokes and ramps at the first two bases, then they would rightly be considered absurdly overpowered in the early game.
It would be really nice to be able to link sc2 accounts to TLnet. In balance discussions like these, I'd be able to skip through the gold/plat players' whines and trollposts, and give more consideration to GMs, for they actually have real investment in the game and way more credibility.
On September 29 2019 13:23 JJH777 wrote: This is the problem with balancing the game around different races being strong at different points of the game. The idea that Zerg should be strong in late game but weak in the early game or that other races should be strong at a certain time and weak late-game is so stupid but Blizzard has admitted to doing it and a lot of players support it. That might work well for a while and it has worked for the last few years but in the long term the early/mid-game will be figured out (unless there are broken builds) and whichever race has the best late-game will start winning 90% of the time. Part of it has been the patches they have done but ultimately that mindset and balancing style is the real problem. If you look at the patch notes from last Blizzcon to now the changes aren't as dramatic as the current balance would have you believe and it's due to this. If Blizzard's post blizzcon answer to this is to change the mid-game again I might quit watching StarCraft II. The balance will improve for a while but it will still get to the same point if that's all they change.
Even though the majority of this series didn't go to late-game doesn't mean the status of late-game didn't effect those other games. It dictates every build and decision Trap made.
Every RTS with a strong racial difference is going to have the races being stronger in different phases of the game, you'll never get to perfect balance in in all game situations. The only solution around it imo is to make the game a mechanical nightmer in order to make balance differences very blury by overshadowing them with the mechanical skill requirement.
Unfortunately that's impossible in our time of normies grown up with phone games where any mechanical skill that requires any degree of deliberate practice is just considered annoying.
I was playing a 47min ladder game against late game zerg that went Infestors (Infested terran spam), corruptors to counter my collossus and pillage my buildings, multiple Nyduses and even got my main, swarm hosts to attack structures from afar too.
I won in the end because I cannoned up the hell out of one new base while taking out his expansions and he ran out of money and lost his army eventually. granted hes not some great player or anything but cannons can stop any of their bullshit with the Nydus. or a patrolling phoenix.
How was the current map pool determined? Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the meta already Zerg favored since the previous map pool? The current map pool further exacerbate the imbalance.
On October 01 2019 01:46 zinistr wrote: I was playing a 47min ladder game against late game zerg that went Infestors (Infested terran spam), corruptors to counter my collossus and pillage my buildings, multiple Nyduses and even got my main, swarm hosts to attack structures from afar too.
I won in the end because I cannoned up the hell out of one new base while taking out his expansions and he ran out of money and lost his army eventually. granted hes not some great player or anything but cannons can stop any of their bullshit with the Nydus. or a patrolling phoenix.
A patrolling phoenix doesn't kill an overlord or overseer fast enough to prevent a nydus from going down.
The cost of putting cannons anywhere and everywhere to stop nyduses is obscene.
i havent watched sc2 in a while but my friends basically said that gglords and winfestors have made a comeback. basically the worst composition that basically murdered SC2 WOL viewership back in the day. and blizzard brought it back???? just ..... no
Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too.
On September 29 2019 13:23 JJH777 wrote: This is the problem with balancing the game around different races being strong at different points of the game. The idea that Zerg should be strong in late game but weak in the early game or that other races should be strong at a certain time and weak late-game is so stupid but Blizzard has admitted to doing it and a lot of players support it. That might work well for a while and it has worked for the last few years but in the long term the early/mid-game will be figured out (unless there are broken builds) and whichever race has the best late-game will start winning 90% of the time. Part of it has been the patches they have done but ultimately that mindset and balancing style is the real problem. If you look at the patch notes from last Blizzcon to now the changes aren't as dramatic as the current balance would have you believe and it's due to this. If Blizzard's post blizzcon answer to this is to change the mid-game again I might quit watching StarCraft II. The balance will improve for a while but it will still get to the same point if that's all they change.
Even though the majority of this series didn't go to late-game doesn't mean the status of late-game didn't effect those other games. It dictates every build and decision Trap made.
Every RTS with a strong racial difference is going to have the races being stronger in different phases of the game, you'll never get to perfect balance in in all game situations. The only solution around it imo is to make the game a mechanical nightmer in order to make balance differences very blury by overshadowing them with the mechanical skill requirement.
Unfortunately that's impossible in our time of normies grown up with phone games where any mechanical skill that requires any degree of deliberate practice is just considered annoying.
you're taking descriptions of BW and inserting it as it was considered a widely balanced game. i am someone from that generation of gamers that prefers it, but also sees that it is not widely accepted or appreciated by today's standards. more than that, it's accepted because of nostalgia and knowing the game is two decades old. making your players struggle with controls (or in your words, masking imbalance) doesn't automatically make the game better or appealing and produces many downsides as well. that goes without saying.
i don't know if you've ever tried one of these normie phone games, but a handful of them are actually quite difficult. mechanical skill in some of the olden games you're thinking about was born out of necessity because there was a lack of methods, technology, time, and money to improve the situation for players. they didn't deliberately make the games difficult so their players could exhibit more skill and form an e-sport. and it isn't a solution either. it would come in the vessel of archaic neglect, and the community wouldn't be wrong to call it out either.
"mechanical skill" the way you describe it, is actually just playing the game efficiently and more effortlessly. in a lot of cases it is muscle memory. every game has a different threshold for what's required. the more efficient you are on top of that, that is exhibiting skill which can have varying levels of impact on the games that play out.
i can see a lot of people here have the idea of jumping ship and are generally blaming blizzard because that's all that we can possibly do. but honestly this is a more recent trend in the last 6 months or so, where zerg can reach late game more reliably. it's a little useless to discuss how the balancing of the game is fundamentally imperfect. it's been discussed ad infinitum since the game came out. it's much more relevant to try and fix the little pieces that affect the flow towards late game, though it is more of a short-term plan.
however, time will tell because the game will not be patched in that direction until after blizzcon. at blizzcon is where you'll truly see if there's as much as a problem as a lot of you sense---enough of a problem that would cause you to stop watching and supporting SC2.
On October 01 2019 01:46 zinistr wrote: I was playing a 47min ladder game against late game zerg that went Infestors (Infested terran spam), corruptors to counter my collossus and pillage my buildings, multiple Nyduses and even got my main, swarm hosts to attack structures from afar too.
I won in the end because I cannoned up the hell out of one new base while taking out his expansions and he ran out of money and lost his army eventually. granted hes not some great player or anything but cannons can stop any of their bullshit with the Nydus. or a patrolling phoenix.
As someone else already brought up, throwing down cannons everywhere is the Nydus causing damage without one even being popped in your base, and it is very easy to just drop a Nydus outside of the range of your cannons and the best the cannon is going to do is getting a few shots off before mass queens and roaches instantly kill it.
Nydus right now is too powerful for the opportunity cost associated with it. I think it's an interesting building for harassment options and am glad that now it is seeing play, but its current iteration is a bit too powerful and will probably need to be reviewed.
On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote: Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too.
nydus with no creep is actually a really good idea, maybe also make it a bit more expensive or make it spit out units slower
The comments are so funny. If Joe 10-post said Trap lost because Zerg late game is OP, he’s justly warned or banned. Rogue has ascended to a position of privilege—he competes to demonstrate his point—and he basically said the same. I just have to laugh at the way it went down. Life is funny.
If blizzard does a big post Blizzcon patch as has been thier custom I would love to see changes that deemphasize late game air armies across the board and try to give all races good pure ground army options in the late game. This would take a lot of rebalancing but I think it would be really healthy for the game to stay ground centered where it’s the most fun and interesting. Air units should be supportive tech options for your ground army, they should not be your army. Because often the lowest points for this game have been when one race’s late game air army is to strong. Late game air in sc2 has never functioned that well, I think a big part of this is that most races don’t have adequate answers for tier three air on the ground. Or when they do it’s in the form of casters that need to themselves be supported by air.
Give zerg strong tools to win late game without broodlord, then nerf broodlords also nerf bcs and carriers or provide all races with strong g to a options. Tempests should have thier supply increased to keep them in a support role.
On October 01 2019 08:31 washikie wrote: If blizzard does a big post Blizzcon patch as has been thier custom I would love to see changes that deemphasize late game air armies across the board and try to give all races good pure ground army options in the late game. This would take a lot of rebalancing but I think it would be really healthy for the game to stay ground centered where it’s the most fun and interesting. Air units should be supportive tech options for your ground army, they should not be your army. Because often the lowest points for this game have been when one race’s late game air army is to strong. Late game air in sc2 has never functioned that well, I think a big part of this is that most races don’t have adequate answers for tier three air on the ground. Or when they do it’s in the form of casters that need to themselves be supported by air.
Give zerg strong tools to win late game without broodlord, then nerf broodlords also nerf bcs and carriers or provide all races with strong g to a options. Tempests should have thier supply increased to keep them in a support role.
It’s a complicated thing to do, but I think the vast majority of SC2 fans would desire this. Perhaps some will prove my intuition wrong but it’s a pretty consistent thing that’s voiced.
I like air units like I like my casters, specialists that can augment an army, not actually being the army.
They circumvent terrain for one, so it totally negates map architecture, I find it a bit visually messy when stuff clumps too, hard to figure out how big an army is by glancing at it, and even makes focus firing irritating too.
It’s just not particularly fun IMO to control these air blobs, whereas I love early Phoenixes or flying speed banshee hit squads about, because you have to find holes to slip into and if you hit a good rhythm it feels like you’re playing well.
On October 01 2019 08:25 Danglars wrote: The comments are so funny. If Joe 10-post said Trap lost because Zerg late game is OP, he’s justly warned or banned. Rogue has ascended to a position of privilege—he competes to demonstrate his point—and he basically said the same. I just have to laugh at the way it went down. Life is funny.
Well, that's fairly obvious. It's the same reason why when a climate scientist says that climate change is happening, he's taken seriously, and when some random TL.net forumgoer says it's a hoax, he is ridiculed. Rogue is a professional SC2 player. That makes him an expert on the matter, and thus someone whose opinion matters. He may not be right. Even experts make mistakes, exaggerate and have biases (and agendas, ahem, Maru complaining about how bad Terran is). But it's worth considering their opinion all the same, because even with all that, he is a LOT more experienced and knowledgeable about the intricacies of playing top level SC2 than you or I.
And yeah, when Serral and Rogue both point out that their race is too strong, that's an important signal. Whereas if randomprotoss99 complains on TL.net about imba imba imba Zerg, it's meaningless balance whine.
On October 01 2019 08:25 Danglars wrote: The comments are so funny. If Joe 10-post said Trap lost because Zerg late game is OP, he’s justly warned or banned. Rogue has ascended to a position of privilege—he competes to demonstrate his point—and he basically said the same. I just have to laugh at the way it went down. Life is funny.
Well, that's fairly obvious. It's the same reason why when a climate scientist says that climate change is happening, he's taken seriously, and when some random TL.net forumgoer says it's a hoax, he is ridiculed. Rogue is a professional SC2 player. That makes him an expert on the matter, and thus someone whose opinion matters. He may not be right. Even experts make mistakes, exaggerate and have biases (and agendas, ahem, Maru complaining about how bad Terran is). But it's worth considering their opinion all the same, because even with all that, he is a LOT more experienced and knowledgeable about the intricacies of playing top level SC2 than you or I.
And yeah, when Serral and Rogue both point out that their race is too strong, that's an important signal. Whereas if randomprotoss99 complains on TL.net about imba imba imba Zerg, it's meaningless balance whine.
I feel it’s especially notable because the general trend is that pros tend to complain their race is the weak race, plus they have insights into things we don’t see like how practice games go etc.
Nobody is immune to bias or motive of some kind, and I think maybe Rogue is partly motivated in picking his teammate’s morale up after a smashing, that said in general I would put more stock in a pro saying their race is too strong than too weak, for obvious reasons
On October 01 2019 08:25 Danglars wrote: The comments are so funny. If Joe 10-post said Trap lost because Zerg late game is OP, he’s justly warned or banned. Rogue has ascended to a position of privilege—he competes to demonstrate his point—and he basically said the same. I just have to laugh at the way it went down. Life is funny.
Well, that's fairly obvious. It's the same reason why when a climate scientist says that climate change is happening, he's taken seriously, and when some random TL.net forumgoer says it's a hoax, he is ridiculed. Rogue is a professional SC2 player. That makes him an expert on the matter, and thus someone whose opinion matters. He may not be right. Even experts make mistakes, exaggerate and have biases (and agendas, ahem, Maru complaining about how bad Terran is). But it's worth considering their opinion all the same, because even with all that, he is a LOT more experienced and knowledgeable about the intricacies of playing top level SC2 than you or I.
And yeah, when Serral and Rogue both point out that their race is too strong, that's an important signal. Whereas if randomprotoss99 complains on TL.net about imba imba imba Zerg, it's meaningless balance whine.
I’m used to gloom and doom on the ozone layer, global warming, air pollution, and the rest. It’s the professional players that go “More poor opponent, it’s my gamer choice of race not my skill” instead of some classic “I played better/got lucky/had the right preparation” that’s novel.
On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote: Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too.
That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer.
Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense.
The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power.
Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would.
On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote: Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too.
That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer.
Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense.
The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power.
Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would.
nydus s mid - late game usage is in a very good state right now so it wouldnt hurt if the tech is delayed a little bit people might complain zerg has no truly stronk cheese without nydus but its fine bc they still have mid and late game anyway
On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote: Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too.
That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer.
Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense.
The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power.
Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would.
I think this is a good direction to nerf it if it does get nerfed. I think It would be good if the Nydus and the war prism can find a happy medium where they are late game harass enablers, but not early game allin powerhouses. We want late game harass because it helps split up death balls and creates dynamic fun games. We don't want instant reinforcement providing support units for early game allins, without enough counter play. This is why rightly so the community asked for the prism nerf awhile back,
In the early game you just have to sacrifice to much to fully defend against the nydus and it allows a zerg allin to essentially function like an immortal allin, all the units come from your base to the toss main with very little travel time. And like most exceptionally strong early game allins it really restricts the range of viable builds, their just are not that many protoss builds that can hold a nydus allin.
On October 01 2019 08:25 Danglars wrote: The comments are so funny. If Joe 10-post said Trap lost because Zerg late game is OP, he’s justly warned or banned. Rogue has ascended to a position of privilege—he competes to demonstrate his point—and he basically said the same. I just have to laugh at the way it went down. Life is funny.
Well, that's fairly obvious. It's the same reason why when a climate scientist says that climate change is happening, he's taken seriously, and when some random TL.net forumgoer says it's a hoax, he is ridiculed. Rogue is a professional SC2 player. That makes him an expert on the matter, and thus someone whose opinion matters. He may not be right. Even experts make mistakes, exaggerate and have biases (and agendas, ahem, Maru complaining about how bad Terran is). But it's worth considering their opinion all the same, because even with all that, he is a LOT more experienced and knowledgeable about the intricacies of playing top level SC2 than you or I.
And yeah, when Serral and Rogue both point out that their race is too strong, that's an important signal. Whereas if randomprotoss99 complains on TL.net about imba imba imba Zerg, it's meaningless balance whine.
I feel it’s especially notable because the general trend is that pros tend to complain their race is the weak race, plus they have insights into things we don’t see like how practice games go etc.
Nobody is immune to bias or motive of some kind, and I think maybe Rogue is partly motivated in picking his teammate’s morale up after a smashing, that said in general I would put more stock in a pro saying their race is too strong than too weak, for obvious reasons
ya ,saying me is much better than trap will excruciate da pain even moar so rogue s answer is fair enough i guess but in fact Trap played potato in the final for sure
On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote: Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too.
That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer.
Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense.
The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power.
Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would.
nydus s mid - late game usage is in a very good state right now so it wouldnt hurt if the tech is delayed a little bit people might complain zerg has no truly stronk cheese without nydus but its fine bc they still have mid and late game anyway
Is it fine in the lategame? I think it’s stronger there, personally, just haven’t been really utilised to quite their potential recently.
Rogue put up something like 25+ nyduses against Dark in one of their games, which Dark generally defended all of them. One gets up and Rogue crippled him.
There’s that extra dough in the lategame so really spamming them is pretty potent.
On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote: Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too.
That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer.
Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense.
The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power.
Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would.
I think this is a good direction to nerf it if it does get nerfed. I think It would be good if the Nydus and the war prism can find a happy medium where they are late game harass enablers, but not early game allin powerhouses. We want late game harass because it helps split up death balls and creates dynamic fun games. We don't want instant reinforcement providing support units for early game allins, without enough counter play. This is why rightly so the community asked for the prism nerf awhile back,
In the early game you just have to sacrifice to much to fully defend against the nydus and it allows a zerg allin to essentially function like an immortal allin, all the units come from your base to the toss main with very little travel time. And like most exceptionally strong early game allins it really restricts the range of viable builds, their just are not that many protoss builds that can hold a nydus allin.
Is part of that partly due to how bad Protoss lategame is against Zerg? It feels the meta is to cut a ton of corners to try and hit potent timings, which of course makes Nydus allins powerful against builds that don’t naturally counter it.
It feels Protoss players are by necessity having to roll the dice way too much these days, I’m still in favour of tweaking the nydus specifically but the whole dynamic of the matchup feels fundamentally wonky of late.
On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote: Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too.
I honestly don't think this really solves the issue. You already need vision to place a nydus, and the spotters for that are almost always overlords or overseers. You also already have a lair since the nydus requires one. So what do the zergs do once their nydus is up and this change goes through? They just move their overlord/overseer over to the nydus, poop creep, and make creep tumors with their queens. The problem hasn't been solved.
On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote: Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over.
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too.
That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer.
Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense.
The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power.
Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would.
nydus s mid - late game usage is in a very good state right now so it wouldnt hurt if the tech is delayed a little bit people might complain zerg has no truly stronk cheese without nydus but its fine bc they still have mid and late game anyway
Is it fine in the lategame? I think it’s stronger there, personally, just haven’t been really utilised to quite their potential recently.
Rogue put up something like 25+ nyduses against Dark in one of their games, which Dark generally defended all of them. One gets up and Rogue crippled him.
There’s that extra dough in the lategame so really spamming them is pretty potent.
On October 01 2019 11:56 Wombat_NI wrote: Is part of that partly due to how bad Protoss lategame is against Zerg? It feels the meta is to cut a ton of corners to try and hit potent timings, which of course makes Nydus allins powerful against builds that don’t naturally counter it.
It feels Protoss players are by necessity having to roll the dice way too much these days, I’m still in favour of tweaking the nydus specifically but the whole dynamic of the matchup feels fundamentally wonky of late.
well,the nydus abuse in late game is either because of the map pool or lacking of head to head fighting prowess .Thats why protoss players cant dispatch thier units to defense or the dispatched units cant make it in time one thing i want to point out is the current late game P army is so much supply inefficient and slow compare to zerg and no one s gonna sent dem sluggish archons,ping pongs and HTs to defends multiple nydues but without them,its a lost full against broodlord infestors anyway
3 supply infest seemsgood to me but the map pool needs some tweaks also
How would one do the map pool if we were to make adjustments?
Smaller I think is probably an idea, perhaps fewer wide open areas?
I’d quite like to see more maze like maps experimented with too. Windy paths with chokes but take longer to navigate counterbalanced with shorter rush distances but wide open areas. Not a maze as such, but a route that’s made circuitous and elongated by the map itself.
Protoss and Terran could have areas that are good for them to push through, but take a long time to get through and give Zergs time to prepare.
Kind of like inhibitor fields and the idea behind them. Thus far from what I’ve seen the idea that they balance a shorter rush path haven’t really worked as intended. It just seems those routes = a short rush distance bar the few seconds it takes to get through the fields, so as long as you aren’t caught traversing a field you’re fine.
I don’t make maps and by and large folks do a good job IMO, it’s very difficult to balance map design in a game where one race wants big open areas, and the other two do not against that race.
The only thing that really helps is a long cooldown on the nydus. Queens being used offensively is fine, there has never been a rule not to do that. Handling infestors seems the bigger issue. You don't want to nerf them too hard as they are already quite squishy. Maybe a better approach would be to add spells that dispel/reduce neural/fungal growth duration or something like that. Or prevent mass broodlings. There are many things to consider.
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
All the game ever needed was to leave the old missile and just do **NOT** stack it. Yet they nerf it into oblivion right away. Why do you think they will introduce something like this? (and if I know them irradiate will stack as the old missile )
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell.
Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far.
Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction
On October 01 2019 12:32 Pwny_Danza wrote: I feel like just eliminating the mind control ability on infestors would do a lot to balance the game.
I really do agree with this. Zerg has a lot of stuff that is strong late game, but neural sticks out to me. The reason mind control is so overpowered is that it takes a unit that is already generally good to have late game, and makes it a hard counter against tier3 unit compositions. Because of this, it seems like it's never a bad idea for a zerg to get a ton of infestors, because they are good in every situation.
I think that taking away neural would completely change the late game matchups (particularly zvp). Nice suggestion.
I mean Zerg needs retooling to be less reliant on technical spellcaster armies and just more, Zergy I guess. Least to my tastes anyway.
It is something that’s happened in SC2, Protoss are much less reliant on forcefields than they were in the days of yore, although they’re still a factor they got other options and were less reliant on it over time.
On October 01 2019 21:23 Harris1st wrote: Don't forget Stats will play vs Rogue in ST2. Really curious how Stats is going to handle this.
Maybe he stomps Rogue and everyone jumps back on the OProtoss train XD
Yeah definitely one of the first round matchups I’m most intrigued at, especially after Rogue said he was wrecking Stats in his prep for the GSL.
Plus Stats has taken down Serral pretty convincingly in relatively recent memory, and I don’t recall others having much success of late against the real S class Zergs.
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell.
Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far.
Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction
huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar.....
Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those.
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
All the game ever needed was to leave the old missile and just do **NOT** stack it. Yet they nerf it into oblivion right away. Why do you think they will introduce something like this? (and if I know them irradiate will stack as the old missile )
Agreed, I was just thinking, if the logic was the hunter missiles were too good in all matchups, then Irradiate would be a decent alternative.....
But what the fuck, I want Smart Servo Siege Tanks, lol
On October 01 2019 21:55 Agh wrote: The year is 2019. Broodlords still spawn units
That's not bad because the very idea of broodlords is to spawn units.
Other topic entirely is then should they function like they do. Could be so, that where ever they're targeted, they target, but every unit between them and the target would drain their HP more faster pace. In other words, the swarm would fly toward their assigned target as always, but if they have to pass any other enemy units, their HP/endurance would dramatically drained off when flying over/amongst them.
A Zerg that can send them from a direction that remains unblocked (by enemy unit(s)) would benefit from that. Straightforward attack across/over enemy concentrations would severely dull the sword of the swarm, even without any unit particularly attacking against them.
Of course, if there are broodlords in a future iterations of SC2, they will spawn sub-units. You cannot argue against the very idea of the unit, per se, when they spawn units as long as they exist. There are nothing inherently wrong about the idea, and particularly not balance-wise.
On October 01 2019 21:23 Wombat_NI wrote: I mean Zerg needs retooling to be less reliant on technical spellcaster armies and just more, Zergy I guess. Least to my tastes anyway.
It is something that’s happened in SC2, Protoss are much less reliant on forcefields than they were in the days of yore, although they’re still a factor they got other options and were less reliant on it over time.
The last time they thought about it they created swarmhosts, please no?
They need to start with a decision what is queen. Whether queens are defensive units, offensive units, macro boosters, speed/vision boosters or healers. They can't be EVERYTHING at once, they cannot be the answer to almost everything. And start from there and replace some of their roles with different unit(s) and/or buildings(or their upgrades). IMO
On September 29 2019 11:33 Waxangel wrote: I can't believe Zerg players would latch onto a minor comment about Serral to try and derail this important discussion about balance
I can't understand your point there as the discussion is long concluded and zerg 100% being nerfed in the next patch...
there is no player that honestly says Zerg is balanced right now.. So yeah. I think the most interesting is Rogue thinking he can beat Serral in a long series with macro-game. And I also think it's not true at all at the time being.
On October 02 2019 07:18 Wombat_NI wrote: Where can I find the ‘Rogue is a patch Zerg’ article I’ve heard mentioned relatively frequently on this site? Never actually read it
See if you think you need to read the article you kinda missed the point.
On October 02 2019 07:18 Wombat_NI wrote: Where can I find the ‘Rogue is a patch Zerg’ article I’ve heard mentioned relatively frequently on this site? Never actually read it
See if you think you need to read the article you kinda missed the point.
On October 02 2019 07:18 Wombat_NI wrote: Where can I find the ‘Rogue is a patch Zerg’ article I’ve heard mentioned relatively frequently on this site? Never actually read it
See if you think you need to read the article you kinda missed the point.
On October 02 2019 07:18 Wombat_NI wrote: Where can I find the ‘Rogue is a patch Zerg’ article I’ve heard mentioned relatively frequently on this site? Never actually read it
See if you think you need to read the article you kinda missed the point.
On October 02 2019 01:45 Durnuu wrote: Mizenhauer haters in shambles
User was warned for this post
I haven't posted really since like 2012, but why does TL ban memes. Let the people have some fun. We need the playerbase to have fun to keep this game alive and not warn/banhammer anyone that tries to make a joke or poke fun at someone.
I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote: I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 Serral Rogue 4 - 0 Classic
On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote: I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
that doesn't mean anything unless you list the matches.
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell.
Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far.
Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction
huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar.....
Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those.
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
I did and I know
Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell.
Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far.
Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction
huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar.....
Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those.
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
I did and I know
Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell.
Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far.
Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction
huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar.....
Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those.
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
I did and I know
Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
Energy based, 25 energy max, 2 energy per shot. As I don't remember the energy regeneration we may want to play around the numbers. This way the BL will shoot, but you can get a brief break with EMP/Feedback and attack in the break. It's not a good solution but probably the easiest without doing a big redesign.
On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote: I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 Serral Rogue 4 - 0 Classic
Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote: I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 Serral Rogue 4 - 0 Classic
Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
It was prime Serral actually. Or you mean that Serral only became prime Serral after patch 4.3? :o
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell.
Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far.
Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction
huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar.....
Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those.
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
I did and I know
Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
Funny? Perhaps. Balanced? No.
Why not? I also like the idea deacon posted.
On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote: I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 Serral Rogue 4 - 0 Classic
Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned?
It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG
It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld
On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote: I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 Serral Rogue 4 - 0 Classic
Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned?
It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG
It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld
It's been eleven months, you should already know that I reply every time I think it's necessary.
This topic has been discussed before: Serral found his monster form before GSL vs The World 2018 but surely after Nation Wars V finals.
At IEM and WESG Serral was already a top Zerg and already the best western player but he could't win international tournaments against koreans(he hadn't won one yet, he could beat them but he got swept 0-3 twice in the ro4 at IEM and WESG) and he wasn't the best in any matchup: Rogue was better in ZvP, Dark in ZvT, soO in ZvZ.
Boggyb's comparison is someway misleading since Rogue was clearly stronger than Serral at the time.
do i have to restate myself? we have a gsl CHAMPION basically say his chip is forfeit because of balance but that's ok? are we only only going to see zvz finals? isee much people see this as just trash talk but what if you took it seriously?
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell.
Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far.
Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction
huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar.....
Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those.
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
I did and I know
Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
EMP Infestors obviously ...
Seems quite obvious why not:
1. Broodlings live for a limited time. If this costs BL health to fire (like a carrier, but life instead of minerals), then broodlings should probably not have a countdown timer... and I don't think you want to see what that will do for balance. 2. At the current BL strength, making every shot cost health would render them completely useless. Imagine when a single Thor AoE / psi storm can wipe out your entire end-game army as they limp slowly back across the map after depleating their health taking out a planetary/nexus. They would never get used (like the carrier, that you apparently want to use as a blueprint). So lets say you buff their damage/broodling duration to account for this Broodlord damage is already pretty stupid high. Making it stupider higher, but BL life depleting, makes them very gimmicky.. and we've seen gimmicks are very hard to balance. 3. Health regen is slooowwwwwwwww. So unless you add in some viper-esque ability that lets them eat a hatchery to regen health, it'll rely almost exclusively on queens to keep them alive. Which is not going to be fun for anybody.
So, adding in just that ability you mentioned will render brood lords completely useless. You'd have to do something to address these points, which no doubt has further ramifications for balance of other things (like thors).
And to add to that, brood lords aren't even the real problem right now. This does nothing to address infestors...
On October 02 2019 17:27 Harris1st wrote: Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
Energy based, 25 energy max, 2 energy per shot. As I don't remember the energy regeneration we may want to play around the numbers. This way the BL will shoot, but you can get a brief break with EMP/Feedback and attack in the break. It's not a good solution but probably the easiest without doing a big redesign.
Then we should add some kind of ammo limit to other units, too, what about 10 shots for siege tank before a scv must come by and refuel? Or 10 shots for a liberator before he has to return to the star port? Not to speak of a marauder, who cannot carry more than four grenades, for sure.
Remember, guy, there's no such thing as "free units". Broodlings aren't units, they're projectiles. Crappy projectiles, that can be killed before they hit. It would be free units if they didn't have a timer on them, like the interceptors of a carrier. They are units, but they are not free either.
I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash?
Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell.
Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far.
Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction
huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar.....
Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those.
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
I did and I know
Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
Funny? Perhaps. Balanced? No.
Why not? I also like the idea deacon posted.
On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
EMP Infestors obviously ...
Seems quite obvious why not:
1. Broodlings live for a limited time. If this costs BL health to fire (like a carrier, but life instead of minerals), then broodlings should probably not have a countdown timer... and I don't think you want to see what that will do for balance. 2. At the current BL strength, making every shot cost health would render them completely useless. Imagine when a single Thor AoE / psi storm can wipe out your entire end-game army as they limp slowly back across the map after depleating their health taking out a planetary/nexus. They would never get used (like the carrier, that you apparently want to use as a blueprint). So lets say you buff their damage/broodling duration to account for this Broodlord damage is already pretty stupid high. Making it stupider higher, but BL life depleting, makes them very gimmicky.. and we've seen gimmicks are very hard to balance. 3. Health regen is slooowwwwwwwww. So unless you add in some viper-esque ability that lets them eat a hatchery to regen health, it'll rely almost exclusively on queens to keep them alive. Which is not going to be fun for anybody.
So, adding in just that ability you mentioned will render brood lords completely useless. You'd have to do something to address these points, which no doubt has further ramifications for balance of other things (like thors).
And to add to that, brood lords aren't even the real problem right now. This does nothing to address infestors...
First of all, we are just spitballing here Second, I think you are exaggerating all your points by a large margin. Third, we have a somewhat similar mechanic to Queens + BL with Stim + Medivac. It works quite well
Now, my idea would be to change nothing on the Broodlords but make evey Broodling cost 1-2 Hp, making a wave 2-4 HP total. You can easily get 10+ waves of, you just have to care not to overcommit or be outpositioned (which is kinda already the case, but would be punished way harder with these changes)
Yes the Infestor is stupidly powerful. So is Nydus. These two have to be addressed ASAP imo
On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote: I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
As someone that played WoL before the infestor buff I can assure you Voidrays beat corruptors. Their problem is more with fungal and parasitic bomb.
On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote: I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
Dunno. Isn't that what Tempest can do already anyway?
On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote: I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
As someone that played WoL before the infestor buff I can assure you Voidrays beat corruptors. Their problem is more with fungal and parasitic bomb.
1. WoL Voidrays != LoTV voidrays. Not even close. 2. That said, yes, fungal with the corrupters is the real killer. Faster voidrays would let them be able to dodge it easier as well.
On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote: I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
Dunno. Isn't that what Tempest can do already anyway?
Tempest are pretty slow. They rely on range to do anything, but aren't that great in straight up combat. So if Zerg can force an engagement, Protoss only real option is to warp home. They are currently the only lategame option left for Protoss, but a minor mistake can (and often does) end the game immediately.
On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote: I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 Serral Rogue 4 - 0 Classic
Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned?
It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG
It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld
It's been eleven months, you should already know that I reply every time I think it's necessary.
This topic has been discussed before: Serral found his monster form before GSL vs The World 2018 but surely after Nation Wars V finals.
At IEM and WESG Serral was already a top Zerg and already the best western player but he could't win international tournaments against koreans(he hadn't won one yet, he could beat them but he got swept 0-3 twice in the ro4 at IEM and WESG) and he wasn't the best in any matchup: Rogue was better in ZvP, Dark in ZvT, soO in ZvZ.
Boggyb's comparison is someway misleading since Rogue was clearly stronger than Serral at the time.
I agree with you. Serral had his peak from GSL vs the world to the HSC after Blizzcon, then he played below his peak from IEM Katowice to ASUS ROG and then he reached his peak again at GSL vs the world 2019. Peak Serral has never lost a series.
On October 02 2019 17:27 Harris1st wrote: Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
Energy based, 25 energy max, 2 energy per shot. As I don't remember the energy regeneration we may want to play around the numbers. This way the BL will shoot, but you can get a brief break with EMP/Feedback and attack in the break. It's not a good solution but probably the easiest without doing a big redesign.
Then we should add some kind of ammo limit to other units, too, what about 10 shots for siege tank before a scv must come by and refuel? Or 10 shots for a liberator before he has to return to the star port? Not to speak of a marauder, who cannot carry more than four grenades, for sure.
Remember, guy, there's no such thing as "free units". Broodlings aren't units, they're projectiles. Crappy projectiles, that can be killed before they hit. It would be free units if they didn't have a timer on them, like the interceptors of a carrier. They are units, but they are not free either.
Broodlings have HP, have pathing, block other ground units from going under the BL. As far as I care they are units that block other ground units. Thus they're units. Because they don't cost anything they're free units.
The biggest issue with BL is that they have 12 range and they body block with broodlings. Thus we can counter them either by 1) Increasing anti-bl range(aka the Tempest solution) 2) Removing the body block feature of broodlings(aka let's make BL useless) 3) Making their shots more strategic(aka the Swarmhost solution)
Or think about something else. THe biggest issue is that if you don't have the range(and Terran anti-BL unit has lower range) you have to go closer to the BL which means, uh, how to say it, you have to go through the broodlings god damn it!
So, guy, I remember, but I refuse. And on the top of that - feel free to fix the issue yourself. We have big maps which favor zergs, we have BL/infestor meta which favors zergs and that was said by the last GSL Champion and the last World Champion.
I didn't notice siege tank blocking charge lots to charge them BTW
Edit> Also I chose to make their shots more strategic and the notion was that they will be shooting with slightly longer breaks, that's why the shot should cost 2 energy(which is regained pretty fast). The point was to be able to stop them shoot for a while to MOVE through the BLings. Other solution is to give Thors 13 range and that's really stupid, but that's where we will end because all the other solution is being blocked with posts like yours.
On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote: I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
As someone that played WoL before the infestor buff I can assure you Voidrays beat corruptors. Their problem is more with fungal and parasitic bomb.
1. WoL Voidrays != LoTV voidrays. Not even close. 2. That said, yes, fungal with the corrupters is the real killer. Faster voidrays would let them be able to dodge it easier as well.
Speed voids might create their own issues, maybe makes PvP even more wonky but maybe they’d be fine.
It would definitely help in circumventing and picking off bases, especially in conjunction with prisms.
My instinct would be we’d see players doing that only to ultimately lose when the final engagement against the Zerg ball has to happen. Sort of like cutting off a hydra’s head only for it to grow back, which we see already. Speed voids would probably make that easier and more consistent.
Speedier Voids might help in splitting but ultimately final engagements are still going to be rough to do. It’s a lot of different units to control, spells to cast, splits and continual retargetting so you’re not wasting DPS on ITs and Broodlings
I do like the idea as something to perhaps test in a patch though.
There’s a lot of elements that make Zerg lategame so good, the units, the game flow and creep and moveable static defence.
What about making moving static D cost some minerals past a certain threshold? Make it quite a large distance so it doesn’t affect the early game?
On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote: I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
As someone that played WoL before the infestor buff I can assure you Voidrays beat corruptors. Their problem is more with fungal and parasitic bomb.
1. WoL Voidrays != LoTV voidrays. Not even close. 2. That said, yes, fungal with the corrupters is the real killer. Faster voidrays would let them be able to dodge it easier as well.
Yeah I'm pretty sure void rays do beat corruptors, I think they are even cost efficient vs mutas.
It is the infestors and spore crawlers that beat skytoss, not flying units.
On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote: I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 Serral Rogue 4 - 0 Classic
Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned?
It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG
It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld
It's been eleven months, you should already know that I reply every time I think it's necessary.
This topic has been discussed before: Serral found his monster form before GSL vs The World 2018 but surely after Nation Wars V finals.
At IEM and WESG Serral was already a top Zerg and already the best western player but he could't win international tournaments against koreans(he hadn't won one yet, he could beat them but he got swept 0-3 twice in the ro4 at IEM and WESG) and he wasn't the best in any matchup: Rogue was better in ZvP, Dark in ZvT, soO in ZvZ.
Boggyb's comparison is someway misleading since Rogue was clearly stronger than Serral at the time.
I agree with you. Serral had his peak from GSL vs the world to the HSC after Blizzcon, then he played below his peak from IEM Katowice to ASUS ROG and then he reached his peak again at GSL vs the world 2019. Peak Serral has never lost a series.
Is it more likely that the entire korean scene got worse after Nation Wars or that a young, uprising player improved and became the best in the world? Also, you are the one who admittedly didn't notice any difference in Serral's level of play from BlizzCon 2018 to Katowice 2019 while it was crystal clear that he was shakier even in the series he won. Sarcasm doesn't authomatically make your opinions right, you know?
Thus said, Stats at ASUS Rog for sure, probably Reynor(maybe even Inno, but I'm not sold on that) beat a Serral reasonably close to his top shape.
In the grand scheme of Broodlord/Infestor, Neural definitely needs to go if we want to keep Broodlord's main gimmick of countering all land units by providing body-blocking broodlings. Alternatively toss will need a stronger anti broodlord option that isn't stupidly expensive, because the go to right now is capital ship (carrier/tempest + mothership) plus Archon plus HT, and getting any one of those units neuraled will throw off your unit balance. Alternatively if we don't want to address Neural, making Void Rays a better anti broodlord unit (or a better unit in general so we actually see it being used outside of proxy stargate+ shield battery cheese) is also a good option
On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote: I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 Serral Rogue 4 - 0 Classic
Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned?
It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG
It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld
It's been eleven months, you should already know that I reply every time I think it's necessary.
This topic has been discussed before: Serral found his monster form before GSL vs The World 2018 but surely after Nation Wars V finals.
At IEM and WESG Serral was already a top Zerg and already the best western player but he could't win international tournaments against koreans(he hadn't won one yet, he could beat them but he got swept 0-3 twice in the ro4 at IEM and WESG) and he wasn't the best in any matchup: Rogue was better in ZvP, Dark in ZvT, soO in ZvZ.
Boggyb's comparison is someway misleading since Rogue was clearly stronger than Serral at the time.
I agree with you. Serral had his peak from GSL vs the world to the HSC after Blizzcon, then he played below his peak from IEM Katowice to ASUS ROG and then he reached his peak again at GSL vs the world 2019. Peak Serral has never lost a series.
Is it more likely that the entire korean scene got worse after Nation Wars or that a young, uprising player improved and became the best in the world?
Or is it more likely that Classic and Maru just were in insane form when they faced Serral? During the time when Serral was "below his peak" he still beat Rogue, Zest, Trap and Classic at WESG, most of them pretty convincingly and won WCS Leipzig shortly before that with only 4 map losses.
But no, it's impossible that a player in great form can take down Serral - if he loses it must be because he "wasn't playing at his best"
On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote: I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss.
I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 Serral Rogue 4 - 0 Classic
Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned?
It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG
It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld
It's been eleven months, you should already know that I reply every time I think it's necessary.
This topic has been discussed before: Serral found his monster form before GSL vs The World 2018 but surely after Nation Wars V finals.
At IEM and WESG Serral was already a top Zerg and already the best western player but he could't win international tournaments against koreans(he hadn't won one yet, he could beat them but he got swept 0-3 twice in the ro4 at IEM and WESG) and he wasn't the best in any matchup: Rogue was better in ZvP, Dark in ZvT, soO in ZvZ.
Boggyb's comparison is someway misleading since Rogue was clearly stronger than Serral at the time.
I agree with you. Serral had his peak from GSL vs the world to the HSC after Blizzcon, then he played below his peak from IEM Katowice to ASUS ROG and then he reached his peak again at GSL vs the world 2019. Peak Serral has never lost a series.
Is it more likely that the entire korean scene got worse after Nation Wars or that a young, uprising player improved and became the best in the world?
Or is it more likely that Classic and Maru just were in insane form when they faced Serral? During the time when Serral was "below his peak" he still beat Rogue, Zest, Trap and Classic at WESG, most of them pretty convincingly and won WCS Leipzig shortly before that with only 4 map losses.
But no, it's impossible that a player in great form can take down Serral - if he loses it must be because he "wasn't playing at his best"
That's historical revisionism at its finest, I bet you considered Serral not worthy of holding a candle to Classic(who shortly after lost 0-4 to Rogue in the same matchup) and Maru at the time, now you want to make me believe he was peaking before he was capable of winning a single international tournament? We might discuss about Serral's form in the first months of 2019(it was clearly suboptimal, a step down), after he was already World Champion but there is no way he was just as good as early as March 2018: he was just a top tier Zerg, not the best player in the world, and results clearly show that.
Stats(especially) and Reynor beat Serral when he was playing well enough, your claims are pure sensationalism.
On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game. Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018. You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017. Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages. Quote if you agree.
On October 03 2019 02:46 Charoisaur wrote: On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game. Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018. You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017. Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
You already tried to do something similar once, but Serral and Rogue aren't symmetrical. Rogue has never beaten Serral offline, non peak Serral even defeated peak Rogue(2-1 at IEM Katowice 2018); I have to remind you Rogue was just as confident last year right before being dismantled in macro games.
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages. Quote if you agree.
IMO for Starcraft to work in the long run as a competitive and watchable game when execution is perfect it needs to follow this structure:
There are a handful of viable builds you can open with in a rock, paper, scissors type sense some builds "beat" other builds but not in the lose the match instantly sort of way it just puts you ahead or behind. Once this phase has played out a handful of mid-game strategies are possible in the same way some "beat" others if you were ahead you get more ahead if you were behind you catch up then another similar dynamic in late game. Someone wins when they finally get far enough ahead.
I don't know exactly what steps you take to get there, but I guess it means no ultimate compositions. Everything has a counter and it means more ways to hide information. Hidden information shouldn't be so strong that it ends the game when execution is good but it can confer advantages. Maybe tech needs to be more distinctive and confer more clear (when I say clear I mean to a spectator) advantages. Costs need to be played with maybe. Current costs still conform to SC1 conventions even though they really changed how opening economy works. I think the economy head start favored Zerg. As it stands now it seems like a good Zerg can scout everything and has an ultimate composition. Therefore when they execute, they win.
I don't know that Blizzard is willing to put in the effort though. Perhaps time for SC3? Are the economics there?
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages. Quote if you agree.
On October 03 2019 04:02 MarcusRife wrote: IMO for Starcraft to work in the long run as a competitive game when execution is perfect it needs to follow this structure:
There are a handful of viable builds you can open with in a rock, paper, scissors type sense some builds "beat" other builds but not in the lose the match instantly sort of way it just puts you ahead or behind. Once this phase has played out a handful of mid-game strategies are possible in the same way some "beat" others if you were ahead you get more ahead if you were behind you catch up then another similar dynamic in late game. Someone wins when they finally get far enough ahead.
I don't know exactly what steps you take to get there, but I guess it means no ultimate compositions. Everything has a counter and it means more ways to hide information. Hidden information shouldn't be so strong that it ends the game when execution is good but it can confer advantages. Maybe tech needs to be more distinctive and confer more clear advantages. Costs need to be played with maybe. Current costs still conform to SC1 conventions even though they really changed how opening economy works. I think the economy head start favored Zerg. As it stands now it seems like a good Zerg can scout everything and has an ultimate composition. Therefore when they execute, they win.
I don't know that Blizzard is willing to put in the effort though. Perhaps time for SC3? Are the economics there?
We have seen how much money they're willing to put into the SC2 in the first half of this year.
On October 03 2019 04:19 deacon.frost wrote: We have seen how much money they're willing to put into the SC2 in the first half of this year.
Right so maybe a new game can excite interest. Probably no single player campaign. But, use the new business models that have taken over the industry since SC2 came out. Otherwise, this will go the way of SC1 and become more and more niche. Of course Blizzard is not what it once was.
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages.
To be fair 2013 did cram almost the whole event into one day
On October 03 2019 04:19 deacon.frost wrote: We have seen how much money they're willing to put into the SC2 in the first half of this year.
Right so maybe a new game can excite interest. Probably no single player campaign. But, use the new business models that have taken over the industry since SC2 came out. Otherwise, this will go the way of SC1 and become more and more niche. Of course Blizzard is not what it once was.
I lost all my hopes at the last Blizzcon with mobile Diablo...
On October 03 2019 02:46 Charoisaur wrote: On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game. Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018. You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017. Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
You already tried to do something similar once, but Serral and Rogue aren't symmetrical. Rogue has never beaten Serral offline, non peak Serral even defeated peak Rogue(2-1 at IEM Katowice 2018); I have to remind you Rogue was just as confident last year right before being dismantled in macro games.
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages. Quote if you agree.
I agree with you, Viper.
Love the mental gymnastics of you trying to justify "he didn't play at his peak" being a valid excuse for Serral but not for Rogue. Watch Rogue's games vs Serral - that's not the Rogue that won 3 consecutive tournaments in 2017.
On October 03 2019 02:46 Charoisaur wrote: On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game. Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018. You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017. Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
You already tried to do something similar once, but Serral and Rogue aren't symmetrical. Rogue has never beaten Serral offline, non peak Serral even defeated peak Rogue(2-1 at IEM Katowice 2018); I have to remind you Rogue was just as confident last year right before being dismantled in macro games.
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages. Quote if you agree.
I agree with you, Viper.
Love the mental gymnastics of you trying to justify "he didn't play at his peak" being a valid excuse for Serral but not for Rogue. Watch Rogue's games vs Serral - that's not the Rogue that won 3 consecutive tournaments in 2017.
You are the one going for an absurd mental gymnastic: you speak of Rogue not being at his peak when he lost at BlizzCon, since, you say, Rogue's peak started with Shanghai and ended with Katowice. Then, we find out non peak Serral defeated Rogue...at Katowice, when the latter was supposedly at his peak(by your own words)? This is getting ridicolous...
On a side note if you were honest you would recognize Rogue played very well against Serral at BlizzCon, he really was amazing in a ZvZ and I don't doubt he'd have bested soO again with his lategame prowess but Serral was too strong. I want to remind you that Rogue in 2017 won three consecutive weekenders while suffering heavy defeats in Code S, do you remember Scarlett?
On October 03 2019 02:46 Charoisaur wrote: On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game. Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018. You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017. Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
You already tried to do something similar once, but Serral and Rogue aren't symmetrical. Rogue has never beaten Serral offline, non peak Serral even defeated peak Rogue(2-1 at IEM Katowice 2018); I have to remind you Rogue was just as confident last year right before being dismantled in macro games.
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages. Quote if you agree.
I agree with you, Viper.
Love the mental gymnastics of you trying to justify "he didn't play at his peak" being a valid excuse for Serral but not for Rogue. Watch Rogue's games vs Serral - that's not the Rogue that won 3 consecutive tournaments in 2017.
On October 03 2019 02:46 Charoisaur wrote: On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game. Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018. You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017. Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
You already tried to do something similar once, but Serral and Rogue aren't symmetrical. Rogue has never beaten Serral offline, non peak Serral even defeated peak Rogue(2-1 at IEM Katowice 2018); I have to remind you Rogue was just as confident last year right before being dismantled in macro games.
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages. Quote if you agree.
I agree with you, Viper.
Love the mental gymnastics of you trying to justify "he didn't play at his peak" being a valid excuse for Serral but not for Rogue. Watch Rogue's games vs Serral - that's not the Rogue that won 3 consecutive tournaments in 2017.
Love how you still try :-)
Not sure why I'm still doing this. This guy is beyond all reason. The first time on TL I really want an ignore function.
On October 03 2019 02:46 Charoisaur wrote: On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game. Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018. You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017. Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
You already tried to do something similar once, but Serral and Rogue aren't symmetrical. Rogue has never beaten Serral offline, non peak Serral even defeated peak Rogue(2-1 at IEM Katowice 2018); I have to remind you Rogue was just as confident last year right before being dismantled in macro games.
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages. Quote if you agree.
I agree with you, Viper.
Love the mental gymnastics of you trying to justify "he didn't play at his peak" being a valid excuse for Serral but not for Rogue. Watch Rogue's games vs Serral - that's not the Rogue that won 3 consecutive tournaments in 2017.
Love how you still try :-)
Not sure why I'm still doing this. This guy is beyond all reason. The first time on TL I really want an ignore function.
Yes, why? Why are you still doing this? Everyone knows you are so stupendously reasonable, I'm so dull for not accepting the undeniable truth you try to show me.
Its tiresome to read various boards and threads all around internet these days. Zerg is so OP, broken, IMBA that its almost like no other race has managed to win a match for months, that's the impression. That's also hyperbole.
While I have no reason to doubt what Rogue or Serral has said about late game Zerg strengths, it seems to me now that people straightforwardly extrapolate perceived imbalance to entire game and all Zerg matchups vs Terran and Protoss, thus Top Zergs' statements are starting cause effect that probably result changes/fixes that will go beyond scope of the original, perceived balance problem. Over-correction expected. Fixes to what wasn't even broken probable.
Few months after next patch, its likely that same people crying loud out there now, will cry about new (possibly even more severe) balance issues caused by the next patch.
When imbalance issue (that seems to be founded and very real) is ballooned to out of proportions, people start question skills and abilities of players who manage to win tournaments with their "OP race" rendering their tournament victories near meaningless. Enough echoing and players themselves start parrot what a public, general "consensus" pressure upon them. Little more raving and people accuse infestors and broodlords or what ever for a Protoss loss in a cheesy 7 minutes low quality error prone game, where such units didn't even appear... and Top Zerg sighs and nods for compliance.
But, even today, its still nice to see that one-in-twenty game where a Zerg actually manages to make it into an endgame, to truly get any advantage from the imbalance, and even then only if the Zerg player know what he/she is doing.
Dunno if Rogue is too honest here but he probably knows better x) Gratz to him anyway, regardless of the balance, he played solid at least, he seems way better than last year.
This is Rogue taking one for team Zerg, right? After calling Zerg imba, he now loses to atone for his words. Or maybe Zerg is just slightly too strong in the lategame and not imba imba imba. Protoss has many tools to hurt Zerg before they get that infestor comp going, and Trap played badly, whereas Stats made use of those tools.
Dark's, Reynor's, Solar's, and SoO's statements on the topic still missing, while RagnaroK, Scarlett, Elazer, Impact, Cham, and Lambo could give the beat from background when The World's best Zergs gather together to piss in a corner of their natural to contemplate how the current meta was actually evolved in the first place, and then whole cohort together would sing as chorus to apologize the abysmal state of the game...
Truly good thing here is that if aforementioned group of Top SC2 players manage clear their adversaries fast enough out from the Blizzcon playoffs brackets, we all will be rewarded with totally IMBA-whine free, high quality Ro4 and Finals:
True competition that goes down to the pure skill, ability, grit, concentration, and determination in the most complex, active, fast moving, action based, versatile, and demanding match up possible in the SC2. Nyduses popping up everywhere like mushrooms in an autumn forest, swarms ravaging across a terrain nearly perfectly covered by creep, everything so infected that even roaches have difficulties to hold their pukes, parasitic neural network webbing across hordes of..., splash covered grounds of exploding banelings, and ever continuing ling harass at quadruple simultaneus fronts of eternal base trading...
Every, black, mutated Zerg heart would feel deep happiness. Their entire race would've evolved to a next phase on the road of genetic perfection, without interruptions of non-essential annoyances by lesser cosmic races. How nice it would be. Aww...
On October 03 2019 02:46 Charoisaur wrote: On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game. Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018. You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017. Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
You already tried to do something similar once, but Serral and Rogue aren't symmetrical. Rogue has never beaten Serral offline, non peak Serral even defeated peak Rogue(2-1 at IEM Katowice 2018); I have to remind you Rogue was just as confident last year right before being dismantled in macro games.
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages. Quote if you agree.
I agree with you, Viper.
Love the mental gymnastics of you trying to justify "he didn't play at his peak" being a valid excuse for Serral but not for Rogue. Watch Rogue's games vs Serral - that's not the Rogue that won 3 consecutive tournaments in 2017.
Love how you still try :-)
Not sure why I'm still doing this. This guy is beyond all reason. The first time on TL I really want an ignore function.
Yes, why? Why are you still doing this? Everyone knows you are so stupendously reasonable, I'm so dull for not accepting the undeniable truth you try to show me.
Hey guys, what's going on? Is this discussion THAT important? I mean arguing about some players beating each other on the peak of their form or not. Have you considered that loosing or winning (especially in a extremely volatile game like SC2) doesnt always depend on those players "form" (let alone such thing doesn't even exist or at least is such a complex and mostly subjective concept that noone can grasp) but could be a result of billions of "minor" things, like the an extra half an hour of sleep before the match, stars aligning in the wrong order whatsoever.
Maybe there are reasons why different races cannot have different Max supply values/maximum number of troops possible? I haven't noticed such discussions nor I do know any reasons why that possibility isn't discussed more.
If Zerg end-game imbalance can be verified with enough rigorous statistical analysis, why the solution to it couldn't be as simple as adding for example +10 or +20 or something like that (in accordance with and to ratio given by analysis of degree of power imbalance) to a late-game Protoss' (as example) max supply in that same moment when Zerg first time start produce Infestors (and/or other 'problematic' units)? Extra supply could be even directly related to amounts of these "OP-units" on the field. If Zerg late-game OP tend to drain P and T unreasonably fast, what exactly prevent that to be corrected with changes in quantity of troops available for those races in countering that, instead of 'normal' qualitative tinkering with unit's stats and abilities (that are not phase of a game -specific by default, and that can mess the balance of other phases of a game of match up)?
Lore-wise its almost too easy to think what could be good reason/mechanics/trigger for such extra "reinforcements" to arrive on the battle grounds. For example:
Terran Command: "Infestor pheromones detected! Condition red! General Alarm! Request to all Terran mercs and armed civilians broadcast via all channels! Temporary pardon for all criminal entities."
On October 03 2019 19:28 UnLarva wrote: Maybe there are reasons why different races cannot have different Max supply values/maximum number of troops possible? I haven't noticed such discussions nor I do know any reasons why that possibility isn't discussed more.
If Zerg end-game imbalance can be verified with enough rigorous statistical analysis, why the solution to it couldn't be as simple as adding for example +10 or +20 or something like that (in accordance with and to ratio given by analysis of degree of power imbalance) to a late-game Protoss' (as example) max supply in that same moment when Zerg first time start produce Infestors (and/or other 'problematic' units)? Extra supply could be even directly related to amounts of these "OP-units" on the field. If Zerg late-game OP tend to drain P and T unreasonably fast, what exactly prevent that to be corrected with changes in quantity of troops available for those races in countering that, instead of 'normal' qualitative tinkering with unit's stats and abilities (that are not phase of a game -specific by default, and that can mess the balance of other phases of a game of match up)?
Lore-wise its almost too easy to think what could be good reason/mechanics/trigger for such extra "reinforcements" to arrive on the battle grounds. For example:
Terran Command: "Infestor pheromones detected! Condition red! General Alarm! Request to all Terran mercs and armed civilians broadcast via all channels! Temporary pardon for all criminal entities."
On October 03 2019 19:28 UnLarva wrote: Maybe there are reasons why different races cannot have different Max supply values/maximum number of troops possible? I haven't noticed such discussions nor I do know any reasons why that possibility isn't discussed more.
If Zerg end-game imbalance can be verified with enough rigorous statistical analysis, why the solution to it couldn't be as simple as adding for example +10 or +20 or something like that (in accordance with and to ratio given by analysis of degree of power imbalance) to a late-game Protoss' (as example) max supply in that same moment when Zerg first time start produce Infestors (and/or other 'problematic' units)? Extra supply could be even directly related to amounts of these "OP-units" on the field. If Zerg late-game OP tend to drain P and T unreasonably fast, what exactly prevent that to be corrected with changes in quantity of troops available for those races in countering that, instead of 'normal' qualitative tinkering with unit's stats and abilities (that are not phase of a game -specific by default, and that can mess the balance of other phases of a game of match up)?
Lore-wise its almost too easy to think what could be good reason/mechanics/trigger for such extra "reinforcements" to arrive on the battle grounds. For example:
Terran Command: "Infestor pheromones detected! Condition red! General Alarm! Request to all Terran mercs and armed civilians broadcast via all channels! Temporary pardon for all criminal entities."
If this is completely stupid comment, just ignore it. Better, why exactly it would be stupid idea?
Zerg can technically cheat their supply higher to compensate. Nothing is impossible when you have the bank.
Hmm... counter-balancing extra sur-plus supply could come as a drop/teleport accompanied with adequate mineral/gas bank. It would be then entirely upon a T or P player how to use and utilize that extra supply and bank.
But, this all is just speculation about possibilities to fix imbalance, that really need enough strong verification by proper analysis. Also, idea itself feels little bit a band-aid solution, but at least it could work as point-blank measure to specific imbalance, being relatively isolated and not influencing too much to overall game balance. Ofc, situation for T is different than its for P, and thus exact amount of extra supply and bank should be determined for each races separately. Furthermore, as its also a question of exact late-game zerg unit composition, it won't be easy task to really determine what kind situations with what amounts of "OP-units" exactly produce the imbalance scenario, and to what degree, to justify this kind god-given drops from the heaven.
On October 03 2019 20:37 MockHamill wrote: The problem seems very easy to solve and should be done before Blizzcon.
1. Increase Infestor supply to 3. 2. Fix the BroodLord range bug.
SwarmHost/Nydus and similiar issues can be locked at after Blizzcon.
Seems very reasonable suggestion.
After all, the last thing to do would be complete overhaul by nerfing everything between an earth and sky same time. Its pretty much impossible to detect an impact of each change if there are multitude of them in same patch, and complex dependancies between each unit(s) can cause effects that were both unforeseen, but also counter-productive to the very reasons why changes were made in a first place.
These days it seems that practically everything with Zerg is OP according a discussions all around, and its hard to find an unit of zerg that isn't already suggested to get nerfed as soon as possible. Logic of the game itself dictates that all demands cannot be rationally justified, nor that they would actually improve the balance if becoming the reality. There is imminent and obvious risk for a child to get jettisoned with his washing water all the same if even half of all of those marvellous nerf-zerg ideas are included to the next balance patch.
Top zergs should send their written and well thought interpretations over the issue to Blizzard's balance team (or is it just one person during this golden renaissance of the game?) for preventing the destructive scenario of over-nerfing.
On October 03 2019 02:46 Charoisaur wrote: On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game. Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018. You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017. Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
You already tried to do something similar once, but Serral and Rogue aren't symmetrical. Rogue has never beaten Serral offline, non peak Serral even defeated peak Rogue(2-1 at IEM Katowice 2018); I have to remind you Rogue was just as confident last year right before being dismantled in macro games.
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages. Quote if you agree.
I agree with you, Viper.
Love the mental gymnastics of you trying to justify "he didn't play at his peak" being a valid excuse for Serral but not for Rogue. Watch Rogue's games vs Serral - that's not the Rogue that won 3 consecutive tournaments in 2017.
On October 03 2019 20:37 MockHamill wrote: The problem seems very easy to solve and should be done before Blizzcon.
1. Increase Infestor supply to 3. 2. Fix the BroodLord range bug.
SwarmHost/Nydus and similiar issues can be locked at after Blizzcon.
Seems very reasonable suggestion.
After all, the last thing to do would be complete overhaul by nerfing everything between an earth and sky same time. Its pretty much impossible to detect an impact of each change if there are multitude of them in same patch, and complex dependancies between each unit(s) can cause effects that were both unforeseen, but also counter-productive to the very reasons why changes were made in a first place.
These days it seems that practically everything with Zerg is OP according a discussions all around, and its hard to find an unit of zerg that isn't already suggested to get nerfed as soon as possible. Logic of the game itself dictates that all demands cannot be rationally justified, nor that they would actually improve the balance if becoming the reality. There is imminent and obvious risk for a child to get jettisoned with his washing water all the same if even half of all of those marvellous nerf-zerg ideas are included to the next balance patch.
Top zergs should send their written and well thought interpretations over the issue to Blizzard's balance team (or is it just one person during this golden renaissance of the game?) for preventing the destructive scenario of over-nerfing.
Yes, I was against nerfing the warp prism and reducing cost of overlord speed in the same patch for that reason. They’re both largely targeted at Immortal timings/Protoss shenanigans
Maybe the meta/knowledge, which was shifting anyway would have been enough to redress issues. Maybe either of those changes singularly would have made a nice balance.
Instead we had two changes on top of an already shifting meta.
Perhaps users or the balance team wouldn’t like if it singular changes to single units and costs were implemented more frequently, which is why patches tend to include a fair few changes at once.
Still always feels there’s so much change at once it’s hard to calculate what will do what, and even after the fact what changes are impactful in the desired way, what ones aren’t and what ones create further problems
On October 03 2019 20:37 MockHamill wrote: The problem seems very easy to solve and should be done before Blizzcon.
1. Increase Infestor supply to 3. 2. Fix the BroodLord range bug.
SwarmHost/Nydus and similiar issues can be looked at after Blizzcon.
Broodlords don't need to be changed. It's literally been this way for 9 years. The infestor and the nydus worm are the two keys that need to be looked at. This thread is also pretty funny after watching Rogue get bopped by Stats. Adds some flair to the discussion.
On October 03 2019 20:37 MockHamill wrote: The problem seems very easy to solve and should be done before Blizzcon.
1. Increase Infestor supply to 3. 2. Fix the BroodLord range bug.
SwarmHost/Nydus and similiar issues can be looked at after Blizzcon.
Broodlords don't need to be changed. It's literally been this way for 9 years. The infestor and the nydus worm are the two keys that need to be looked at. This thread is also pretty funny after watching Rogue get bopped by Stats. Adds some flair to the discussion.
Considering Blizzcon being soon people are asking for easy changes to be implemented so the balance is better. It's not like this was said by 1 random Zerg...
On October 03 2019 20:37 MockHamill wrote: The problem seems very easy to solve and should be done before Blizzcon.
1. Increase Infestor supply to 3. 2. Fix the BroodLord range bug.
SwarmHost/Nydus and similiar issues can be looked at after Blizzcon.
i like the supply change idea but i would also compensate it by adding some hp or +1 armor. so it's not an all-or-nothing glass cannon spell caster but more of a robust support that has powerful spells but they must be used judiciously.
this would be a very big change, though. a slight nerf but more of a design change because the way infestors interact with other units is very clearly flawed and this has been an issue since the game was in beta.
On September 29 2019 17:43 ChriS-X wrote: so now we can say zerg OP without getting banned right?
jk mods plz don't ban me
User was temp banned for this post.
Just wanted to say this ban was ridiculous. People need to grow tf up and learn to take a joke.
Rules are rules. Take it to website feedback if you want to discuss this.
Fair enough. Guess I just thought an American gaming forum of all places would be at least as liberal as the CPC when it comes to what speech is or is not allowed.
On September 29 2019 17:43 ChriS-X wrote: so now we can say zerg OP without getting banned right?
jk mods plz don't ban me
User was temp banned for this post.
Just wanted to say this ban was ridiculous. People need to grow tf up and learn to take a joke.
Rules are rules. Take it to website feedback if you want to discuss this.
Fair enough. Guess I just thought an American gaming forum of all places would be at least as liberal as the CPC when it comes to what speech is or is not allowed.
Sure it’s pretty stringent, it’s also way more tolerable than reddit or the Blizz forums IMO precisely because the moderation is pretty tough compared to other places
On September 29 2019 17:43 ChriS-X wrote: so now we can say zerg OP without getting banned right?
jk mods plz don't ban me
User was temp banned for this post.
Just wanted to say this ban was ridiculous. People need to grow tf up and learn to take a joke.
Rules are rules. Take it to website feedback if you want to discuss this.
Fair enough. Guess I just thought an American gaming forum of all places would be at least as liberal as the CPC when it comes to what speech is or is not allowed.
Youtube comments aren't stringent. Do you want TL to become Youtube comments? Honestly this is one of the few remaining places on the internet where people at least pretends to be civilised to each other, and we only have the stringent rules and the hard work put in by the mod staff to thank for it.
On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote: I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
Just caught the patch notes and..I mean.."told"? But honestly the changes are so dramatic across the board that I don't even know if this will have the intended consequence any more. But it at the very least makes for a much smoother transition to skytoss.
On September 29 2019 17:43 ChriS-X wrote: so now we can say zerg OP without getting banned right?
jk mods plz don't ban me
User was temp banned for this post.
The ban is ridiculous. I don't care how stringent rules have made the forums a better place. The point is not that rules are necessary in general. That's obviously true. The point is the rules are failing specifically in this case -- it is not good enough, and moderators need to take feedback seriously to improve it. That said, I know it's not easy.
On September 29 2019 17:43 ChriS-X wrote: so now we can say zerg OP without getting banned right?
jk mods plz don't ban me
User was temp banned for this post.
The ban is ridiculous. I don't care how stringent rules have made the forums a better place. The point is not that rules are necessary in general. That's obviously true. The point is the rules are failing specifically in this case -- it is not good enough, and moderators need to take feedback seriously to improve it. That said, I know it's not easy.
TL mods are morons, I said this years ago. The logic back then was that there was an influx of new players, and they needed discipline, so mods were swift with the ban hammer.
The truth is, the mods suck at the game, are angry skinnyfat nerds, so they pretend to be e-rambos. Lots of hidden anger.
Sc is dying, TL is dying. Keep banning solid posters, you fucking morons lmao. You are the direct cause of this, as TL was the main gateway. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
Perma ban me and nuke my post, IDC. You're a coward, and I'm right. I get the last word in anyways, I don't plan on coming back to this shit hole.
Naz is such a complacent fool to give the keys to his site to angry retards with literally 0 emotional intelligence.
On October 23 2019 19:08 guN-viCe wrote: TL mods are morons, I said this years ago. The logic back then was that there was an influx of new players, and they needed discipline, so mods were swift with the ban hammer.
The truth is, the mods suck at the game, are angry skinnyfat nerds, so they pretend to be e-rambos. Lots of hidden anger.
Sc is dying, TL is dying. Keep banning solid posters, you fucking morons lmao. You are the direct cause of this, as TL was the main gateway. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
Perma ban me and nuke my post, IDC. You're a coward, and I'm right. I get the last word in anyways, I don't plan on coming back to this shit hole.
Naz is such a complacent fool to give the keys to his site to angry retards with literally 0 emotional intelligence.
On October 23 2019 19:08 guN-viCe wrote: TL mods are morons, I said this years ago. The logic back then was that there was an influx of new players, and they needed discipline, so mods were swift with the ban hammer.
The truth is, the mods suck at the game, are angry skinnyfat nerds, so they pretend to be e-rambos. Lots of hidden anger.
Sc is dying, TL is dying. Keep banning solid posters, you fucking morons lmao. You are the direct cause of this, as TL was the main gateway. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
Perma ban me and nuke my post, IDC. You're a coward, and I'm right. I get the last word in anyways, I don't plan on coming back to this shit hole.
Naz is such a complacent fool to give the keys to his site to angry retards with literally 0 emotional intelligence.
gg no re
User was banned for this post.
lmao, man down
lmao, i read 4 words and knew he stood no chance guN-viCe 0 - Jannies 1
EPT
Trap, 
That hurts zerg much more than it hurts terran, so maybe it'll help PvZ without breaking PvT. 
![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/c4c8c153b7c688c2d5c1f5f8f2912338.png)
