EPTCorrect me if I'm wrong, wasn't the meta already Zerg favored since the previous map pool?
The current map pool further exacerbate the imbalance.
Rogue: "I won because balance really favors Zerg" + commen…
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rayl991
Afghanistan80 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the meta already Zerg favored since the previous map pool? The current map pool further exacerbate the imbalance. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On October 01 2019 01:46 zinistr wrote: I was playing a 47min ladder game against late game zerg that went Infestors (Infested terran spam), corruptors to counter my collossus and pillage my buildings, multiple Nyduses and even got my main, swarm hosts to attack structures from afar too. I won in the end because I cannoned up the hell out of one new base while taking out his expansions and he ran out of money and lost his army eventually. granted hes not some great player or anything but cannons can stop any of their bullshit with the Nydus. or a patrolling phoenix. A patrolling phoenix doesn't kill an overlord or overseer fast enough to prevent a nydus from going down. The cost of putting cannons anywhere and everywhere to stop nyduses is obscene. | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
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david0925
212 Posts
As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On October 01 2019 01:37 InfestedNeurone wrote: Every RTS with a strong racial difference is going to have the races being stronger in different phases of the game, you'll never get to perfect balance in in all game situations. The only solution around it imo is to make the game a mechanical nightmer in order to make balance differences very blury by overshadowing them with the mechanical skill requirement. Unfortunately that's impossible in our time of normies grown up with phone games where any mechanical skill that requires any degree of deliberate practice is just considered annoying. you're taking descriptions of BW and inserting it as it was considered a widely balanced game. i am someone from that generation of gamers that prefers it, but also sees that it is not widely accepted or appreciated by today's standards. more than that, it's accepted because of nostalgia and knowing the game is two decades old. making your players struggle with controls (or in your words, masking imbalance) doesn't automatically make the game better or appealing and produces many downsides as well. that goes without saying. i don't know if you've ever tried one of these normie phone games, but a handful of them are actually quite difficult. mechanical skill in some of the olden games you're thinking about was born out of necessity because there was a lack of methods, technology, time, and money to improve the situation for players. they didn't deliberately make the games difficult so their players could exhibit more skill and form an e-sport. and it isn't a solution either. it would come in the vessel of archaic neglect, and the community wouldn't be wrong to call it out either. "mechanical skill" the way you describe it, is actually just playing the game efficiently and more effortlessly. in a lot of cases it is muscle memory. every game has a different threshold for what's required. the more efficient you are on top of that, that is exhibiting skill which can have varying levels of impact on the games that play out. i can see a lot of people here have the idea of jumping ship and are generally blaming blizzard because that's all that we can possibly do. but honestly this is a more recent trend in the last 6 months or so, where zerg can reach late game more reliably. it's a little useless to discuss how the balancing of the game is fundamentally imperfect. it's been discussed ad infinitum since the game came out. it's much more relevant to try and fix the little pieces that affect the flow towards late game, though it is more of a short-term plan. however, time will tell because the game will not be patched in that direction until after blizzcon. at blizzcon is where you'll truly see if there's as much as a problem as a lot of you sense---enough of a problem that would cause you to stop watching and supporting SC2. | ||
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david0925
212 Posts
On October 01 2019 01:46 zinistr wrote: I was playing a 47min ladder game against late game zerg that went Infestors (Infested terran spam), corruptors to counter my collossus and pillage my buildings, multiple Nyduses and even got my main, swarm hosts to attack structures from afar too. I won in the end because I cannoned up the hell out of one new base while taking out his expansions and he ran out of money and lost his army eventually. granted hes not some great player or anything but cannons can stop any of their bullshit with the Nydus. or a patrolling phoenix. As someone else already brought up, throwing down cannons everywhere is the Nydus causing damage without one even being popped in your base, and it is very easy to just drop a Nydus outside of the range of your cannons and the best the cannon is going to do is getting a few shots off before mass queens and roaches instantly kill it. Nydus right now is too powerful for the opportunity cost associated with it. I think it's an interesting building for harassment options and am glad that now it is seeing play, but its current iteration is a bit too powerful and will probably need to be reviewed. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17677 Posts
On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote: Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over. As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too. nydus with no creep is actually a really good idea, maybe also make it a bit more expensive or make it spit out units slower | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
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Zambrah
United States7327 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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washikie
United States752 Posts
Give zerg strong tools to win late game without broodlord, then nerf broodlords also nerf bcs and carriers or provide all races with strong g to a options. Tempests should have thier supply increased to keep them in a support role. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25551 Posts
On October 01 2019 08:31 washikie wrote: If blizzard does a big post Blizzcon patch as has been thier custom I would love to see changes that deemphasize late game air armies across the board and try to give all races good pure ground army options in the late game. This would take a lot of rebalancing but I think it would be really healthy for the game to stay ground centered where it’s the most fun and interesting. Air units should be supportive tech options for your ground army, they should not be your army. Because often the lowest points for this game have been when one race’s late game air army is to strong. Late game air in sc2 has never functioned that well, I think a big part of this is that most races don’t have adequate answers for tier three air on the ground. Or when they do it’s in the form of casters that need to themselves be supported by air. Give zerg strong tools to win late game without broodlord, then nerf broodlords also nerf bcs and carriers or provide all races with strong g to a options. Tempests should have thier supply increased to keep them in a support role. It’s a complicated thing to do, but I think the vast majority of SC2 fans would desire this. Perhaps some will prove my intuition wrong but it’s a pretty consistent thing that’s voiced. I like air units like I like my casters, specialists that can augment an army, not actually being the army. They circumvent terrain for one, so it totally negates map architecture, I find it a bit visually messy when stuff clumps too, hard to figure out how big an army is by glancing at it, and even makes focus firing irritating too. It’s just not particularly fun IMO to control these air blobs, whereas I love early Phoenixes or flying speed banshee hit squads about, because you have to find holes to slip into and if you hit a good rhythm it feels like you’re playing well. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18031 Posts
On October 01 2019 08:25 Danglars wrote: The comments are so funny. If Joe 10-post said Trap lost because Zerg late game is OP, he’s justly warned or banned. Rogue has ascended to a position of privilege—he competes to demonstrate his point—and he basically said the same. I just have to laugh at the way it went down. Life is funny. Well, that's fairly obvious. It's the same reason why when a climate scientist says that climate change is happening, he's taken seriously, and when some random TL.net forumgoer says it's a hoax, he is ridiculed. Rogue is a professional SC2 player. That makes him an expert on the matter, and thus someone whose opinion matters. He may not be right. Even experts make mistakes, exaggerate and have biases (and agendas, ahem, Maru complaining about how bad Terran is). But it's worth considering their opinion all the same, because even with all that, he is a LOT more experienced and knowledgeable about the intricacies of playing top level SC2 than you or I. And yeah, when Serral and Rogue both point out that their race is too strong, that's an important signal. Whereas if randomprotoss99 complains on TL.net about imba imba imba Zerg, it's meaningless balance whine. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25551 Posts
On October 01 2019 08:57 Acrofales wrote: Well, that's fairly obvious. It's the same reason why when a climate scientist says that climate change is happening, he's taken seriously, and when some random TL.net forumgoer says it's a hoax, he is ridiculed. Rogue is a professional SC2 player. That makes him an expert on the matter, and thus someone whose opinion matters. He may not be right. Even experts make mistakes, exaggerate and have biases (and agendas, ahem, Maru complaining about how bad Terran is). But it's worth considering their opinion all the same, because even with all that, he is a LOT more experienced and knowledgeable about the intricacies of playing top level SC2 than you or I. And yeah, when Serral and Rogue both point out that their race is too strong, that's an important signal. Whereas if randomprotoss99 complains on TL.net about imba imba imba Zerg, it's meaningless balance whine. I feel it’s especially notable because the general trend is that pros tend to complain their race is the weak race, plus they have insights into things we don’t see like how practice games go etc. Nobody is immune to bias or motive of some kind, and I think maybe Rogue is partly motivated in picking his teammate’s morale up after a smashing, that said in general I would put more stock in a pro saying their race is too strong than too weak, for obvious reasons | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On October 01 2019 08:57 Acrofales wrote: Well, that's fairly obvious. It's the same reason why when a climate scientist says that climate change is happening, he's taken seriously, and when some random TL.net forumgoer says it's a hoax, he is ridiculed. Rogue is a professional SC2 player. That makes him an expert on the matter, and thus someone whose opinion matters. He may not be right. Even experts make mistakes, exaggerate and have biases (and agendas, ahem, Maru complaining about how bad Terran is). But it's worth considering their opinion all the same, because even with all that, he is a LOT more experienced and knowledgeable about the intricacies of playing top level SC2 than you or I. And yeah, when Serral and Rogue both point out that their race is too strong, that's an important signal. Whereas if randomprotoss99 complains on TL.net about imba imba imba Zerg, it's meaningless balance whine. I’m used to gloom and doom on the ozone layer, global warming, air pollution, and the rest. It’s the professional players that go “More poor opponent, it’s my gamer choice of race not my skill” instead of some classic “I played better/got lucky/had the right preparation” that’s novel. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On October 01 2019 04:00 david0925 wrote: Can't we go with something simpler like Nydus Worm not spreading creep? It seems like a huge issue with Nydus is that you're able to throw mass Queens, which are basically balanced as a good defensive unit but bad offensive unit unless you commit with it or have ridiculous creep spread. Popping a Nydus through, getting immediate creep to put tumor on, and then sending over 10 queens to spread a billion creep tumor seems to be a bit silly. It would make retreating a lot more difficult too, especially for queens if you choose to send them over. As for Infestor Broodlord, I don't have good ideas on how to tackle them but I think having unlimited free units to block land-to-air units from ever engaging is a bit silly too. That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer. Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense. The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power. Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On October 01 2019 10:47 Vindicare605 wrote: That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer. Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense. The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power. Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would. nydus s mid - late game usage is in a very good state right now so it wouldnt hurt if the tech is delayed a little bit people might complain zerg has no truly stronk cheese without nydus but its fine bc they still have mid and late game anyway | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On October 01 2019 10:47 Vindicare605 wrote: That idea has been floated around before and personally I think it's a no brainer. Queens are not supposed to be the kind of offensive units that the Nydus Worm allows them to be. That's why their stats are so crazy high for an early game unit, they've been buffed to where they are to cover for the gaps in the Zerg arsenal for defense, not offense. The Nydus Worm generating creep gives Queens too much offensive power and frankly the Nydus Worm is powerful enough of a tool that it doesn't need that extra power. Removing the creep generation is a no brainer way to scale back the Nydus without making it useless again like a lot of other nerfs would. I think this is a good direction to nerf it if it does get nerfed. I think It would be good if the Nydus and the war prism can find a happy medium where they are late game harass enablers, but not early game allin powerhouses. We want late game harass because it helps split up death balls and creates dynamic fun games. We don't want instant reinforcement providing support units for early game allins, without enough counter play. This is why rightly so the community asked for the prism nerf awhile back, In the early game you just have to sacrifice to much to fully defend against the nydus and it allows a zerg allin to essentially function like an immortal allin, all the units come from your base to the toss main with very little travel time. And like most exceptionally strong early game allins it really restricts the range of viable builds, their just are not that many protoss builds that can hold a nydus allin. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On October 01 2019 09:13 Wombat_NI wrote: I feel it’s especially notable because the general trend is that pros tend to complain their race is the weak race, plus they have insights into things we don’t see like how practice games go etc. Nobody is immune to bias or motive of some kind, and I think maybe Rogue is partly motivated in picking his teammate’s morale up after a smashing, that said in general I would put more stock in a pro saying their race is too strong than too weak, for obvious reasons ya ,saying me is much better than trap will excruciate da pain even moar so rogue s answer is fair enough i guess but in fact Trap played potato in the final for sure | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25551 Posts
On October 01 2019 11:29 seemsgood wrote: nydus s mid - late game usage is in a very good state right now so it wouldnt hurt if the tech is delayed a little bit people might complain zerg has no truly stronk cheese without nydus but its fine bc they still have mid and late game anyway Is it fine in the lategame? I think it’s stronger there, personally, just haven’t been really utilised to quite their potential recently. Rogue put up something like 25+ nyduses against Dark in one of their games, which Dark generally defended all of them. One gets up and Rogue crippled him. There’s that extra dough in the lategame so really spamming them is pretty potent. | ||
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