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According to Wiki, Chess has last been around at least 1500 years.
It has symmetrical (both sides have the same units) design.
SC2 while 'playable', unless it's a same race vs same race (no-one complains here about balance), is asymmetrical and by design gives advantages in certain phases of the game.
And this is where the problem arises, straying too far from symmetrical design inherently gives too much advantage (and limits the other player's options) to one player at a certain phase in the game.
In Chess, you have to earn your way through each phase of the game, nothing is given.
I do not forsee SC2 lasting as long as Chess.
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Ye, you definitely need Einstein to figure out how to fix zerg late game...
- move nydus to hive and increase its cost to 75/75.
- remove infestor burrow move
- increase infestor supply to 3
Thank you.
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On September 30 2019 09:08 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 09:02 Xain0n wrote:
Discussing balance is one thing, these claims of certain races being "badly designed" are definitely uncalled for. Uncalled for? We've had at least one whiny player say that a race should be deleted multiple times.
The Balance team are already doing that with Protoss
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On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote:
What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?:
Infestors cannot cast while burrowed.
Sure, infestors need to be nerfed in a big way, personally I feel that the unit might be balanced if they delete neural (which is a very badly designed ability) but this nerf is a step in the right direction but not enough by itself.
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote:
Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap)
Erm what why?
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote:
Nydus network takes twice the build time when not summoned on creep, unit deploy speed should be significantly decreased, and price should be reverted to the older cost (similar to the protoss warp in, and instant mobility should not be that cheap, or that quick).
No, you shouldn't quadra nerf anything, might as well delete the nydus than which is a bad idea.
On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote:
Queen range should be decreased an increment.
There is a reason queen range is what it is, zerg anti air arrive at hydra den or spire, nerfed queens would not be able to handle oracles, phoenix or banshees until those techs unlock. Bad idea.
In general I agree with what have been said by others, the racial design with how different races are strong at different points in the game is bad. When protoss had the ultimate late game that was bad for the game and now when zerg has it its equally bad. All races needs a balance end game, it is fine if its not finely balanced between early-mid game, there can different phases were different races excell there but not in late game. The infestor needs to be heavily nerfed to tone down the oppresive late game
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On September 30 2019 16:26 spenzer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 09:32 Xain0n wrote:On September 30 2019 09:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch? I am more interested in a Reynor vs Rogue match, to be honest. As for Zerg becoming more imba, I am fairly sure Terran can do very well in TvZ with proper builds; Overlord Speed's cost reduction, coupled with Protoss being nerfed in the early/mid game may have made ZvP a Zerg favored matchup at every stage of the game, late is actually more even due to IT's nerf but it seems not to be enough at the moment. Damn you better tell Ty and Maru about dem proper builds I'm sure they didn't tryed them yet...
Ah sure, it's not like players need time to adjust after a new patch; just like the oppressive, overpowered Protoss timings that were figured out in the end last patch.
I think we have seen too many Thors and not enough Ghosts in lategame TvZ, but I might be wrong of course; time will tell!
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On September 30 2019 17:26 derpistole wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote:
What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?:
Infestors cannot cast while burrowed.
Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap)
Nydus network takes twice the build time when not summoned on creep, unit deploy speed should be significantly decreased, and price should be reverted to the older cost (similar to the protoss warp in, and instant mobility should not be that cheap, or that quick).
Queen range should be decreased an increment.
What if Nydus can only summon a limited number of nydus worms? Like a vulture had 3 spider mines in bw
Not so serious thoughts:
Broodlords should have to pay for broodlings like Carriers have to pay for interceptors.(and fix the range bug) LOL, maybe delete Zerg completely ?
Very informative comment ....
Besides the Queen change, these are good ideas. But instead of the overseer costing supply maybe make observer not cost supply.
Nydus - something NEEDS to be done here. Long overdue
Queen - Nah, would change too much on the overall balance. Slippery slope
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Northern Ireland25551 Posts
On September 30 2019 18:10 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 17:26 derpistole wrote:On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote:
What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?:
Infestors cannot cast while burrowed.
Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap)
Nydus network takes twice the build time when not summoned on creep, unit deploy speed should be significantly decreased, and price should be reverted to the older cost (similar to the protoss warp in, and instant mobility should not be that cheap, or that quick).
Queen range should be decreased an increment.
What if Nydus can only summon a limited number of nydus worms? Like a vulture had 3 spider mines in bw
Not so serious thoughts:
Broodlords should have to pay for broodlings like Carriers have to pay for interceptors.(and fix the range bug) LOL, maybe delete Zerg completely ? Very informative comment .... Besides the Queen change, these are good ideas. But instead of the overseer costing supply maybe make observer not cost supply. Nydus - something NEEDS to be done here. Long overdue Queen - Nah, would change too much on the overall balance. Slippery slope
I’m down with changing some of these, just once at a time. I feel last patch nerfing both the prism range, plus decreasing ovie speed at the same time, it’s too much at once and it’s hard to isolate the effects of each change individually and if they’re good or not.
As a general change I just think would be less stupid, Nydus unload speed is insane, tone it down a little. It just feels silly, even if it were 100% balanced somehow.
It’s so all or nothing in its current iteration. You either stop it going up, in which case it’s useless to the Zerg, or it pops and everything is in your base.
If units didn’t pop instantly you’d have more interactions and decision making to do. You can still stop the nydus, or you could pull some army that might be enough to deal with smaller chunks coming through, or do that via a warp in. If you miscalculate or skimp on defence the Zerg can still get a large force in.
Prisms are scary tools too but at least you can see how big a warpin is and pull units accordingly. With a Nydus you basically have to pull your whole army because of how much could potentially pop out.
Plus the load speed being what it is makes escaping super easy too, if your opponent does happen to have sufficient defences in place you just leave.
I want Zerg to have Nydus play as both a lategame reinforcement and positional option and as a way to punish opponents who skimp on defences at home. It’s definitely not something I’d want neutered from the game, especially as Zerg have a hard time breaking Terrans who are well set up.
At present it’s too low-risk, high reward and players are just spamming them until one gets up.
I think altering the load/unload speed is probably the best tweak for both nerfing nydus all-ins but also late-game nydus play. A cost nerf would help with the all-ins but I don’t think it would affect lategame much at all given Zerg banks. Creating separate nydus networks would definitely help in the lategame, more the BW style of how they worked, but would have neglible impact really on the nydus all-ins that don’t use multiple worms all that much
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Gr8, now thanks to pro play, Blizz will mess with our game-play experience. Balance is in a good place, the only frustrating thing atm is the stupid long recall CD. The time when blizz abandons SC2 is close, I just hope it will be, balance-wise in spot that is at least as good as the current situation.
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Honestly these bans arent really helpful.
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Northern Ireland25551 Posts
On September 30 2019 17:43 Parcelleus wrote:
According to Wiki, Chess has last been around at least 1500 years.
It has symmetrical (both sides have the same units) design.
SC2 while 'playable', unless it's a same race vs same race (no-one complains here about balance), is asymmetrical and by design gives advantages in certain phases of the game.
And this is where the problem arises, straying too far from symmetrical design inherently gives too much advantage (and limits the other player's options) to one player at a certain phase in the game.
In Chess, you have to earn your way through each phase of the game, nothing is given.
I do not forsee SC2 lasting as long as Chess.
It’s entirely how you do asymmetric design to me, it’s not inherently a bad thing for an RTS game, probably the opposite.
The original Starcraft was partly so huge because it had 3 fully distinct factions both aesthetically and how they played in the game.
Assuming the factions are decently balanced, if they play differently they also reward differing skillsets, and players with different skills and weaknesses can find their race and style and be competitive. If we had just one race, say it was Terran but a smart player who wasn’t mechanically strong or good at micro, they’d just suck at the game, but maybe they’re great at understanding the game and prosper with Zerg.
There will always be an innate informational asymmetry anyway in any RTS game that includes a fog of war, even in mirror matchups.
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While not being too deeply familiar with details I would:
A) Increase Nydus building time dramatically (for making spotting it easier)
B) Increase Nydus HP to make it harder to destroy (but still easy to do during construction if properly spotted in time)
C) Increase Nydus cost (slightly)
D) Increase Nydus troop uploading time dramatically per unit (to make it so that Zerg must really commit to attack, as immediate retreat wouldn't be anymore possible, neither teleporting big detachments in and out within very small time frame.) Maybe enough long cooldown time that doesn't allow withdrawal of troops without long waiting time.
D.1) There could be even so that Nydys worm can be open only to one direction, and if not set to send troops to other direction by a player, it would be impossible retreat. If set to "retreat-mode", then adequate cooldown would apply, and visa versa.
I have no idea what exactly could be proper times, cooldown, or pace in which units can be send in/out, but in its current state its seems little bit too advantageous for zerg.
However, as build and tactics its something I woundn't ever remove altogether from the game... exactly, because the balance.
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Balance and design-wise, what I would like to see is casters costing more supply in general, infestors not being able to use spells while burrowed and neural having less cast range.
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Trap's play was a little underwhelming. I think the fact they are teammates made Rogue very comfortable to drone up.
Zerg is definitely strong, but more so when you know your opponent very well and feel like you can drone up safely and saturate your three bases quickly.
Or maybe Zerg is totally OP. I feel like we haven't seen Trap really try to harass that much. Been a couple days now, don't remember all the details, but it felt like there might have been a missed opportunity warping tons of Zealots or DTs (lategame).
Protoss has to be tricky and once Zerg has a slow "deathball" type army, Protoss either goes full tech route (which seemed to fail for Trap), or just stay at 160-170 supply and warp in a ridiculous amount of units in the main while pushing.
To be fair Rogue was godlike at defending such attempts. Well played, but I'm not sure I fully agree with the "it's all because of balance" mentality. Zerg does feel strong overall, I must concede.
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Supply depots inefficient, overlords superior.
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On September 30 2019 11:14 Ben... wrote:I agree with most of what has been said here. The infestor and the nydus are both way too much for protoss to reasonably handle right now. The nydus rush builds are still incredibly hard to hold because they require special preparation that completely deviates from standard play, but this map pool and the overlord speed cost buff have both exacerbated the issue by both making it harder to scout in time, and making it so zerg is now guaranteed to get an overlord into the base. The infestor is back to how it was in WOL, and has way too much utility for the cost, but now protoss (and to a lesser extent, terran) have few if any actual counters to them once there are enough of them out. The infestor issue isn't going to go away unless they either undo the feedback nerf or find some other way to make it so protoss can kill them without having to sacrifice a bunch of units to fungals and neurals. Either that or do something about infested terrans. The only way infestors seem to die right now is if the zerg misclicks them when moving them. Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 10:26 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm glad that he pointed out the map pool. The map pool right now is ridiculous, even if Zerg late game wasn't stupid strong vs Protoss they still have a massive advantage because of the stupid maps.
I know the map pool is community voted on, but at some point Blizz needs to make an executive decision and veto certain maps from coming to the pool to protect the pool from becoming far too favoring to one race over the others. Having a pool of maps that are all gigantic is always going to favor Zerg regardless of the rest of the balance of the game. This is one of the first map pools since I started playing again almost 2 years ago where I've wished I had more than 3 vetoes. The maps are way too big and open and it makes PvZ straight up not fun to play anymore. A lot of the thirds are wide open with few places to effectively place walls, which has made roach/ravager busts, hydra busts, ling floods, and the like way more potent than normal. The openness also severely hinders protoss all-ins and timing, which are basically all protoss has left against zerg right now while also making highly mobile builds like muta builds even stronger. I don't mind the maps for PvT and PvP, but for PvZ they're horrid.
Terrans don't like these maps vs either race. It's a Zerg map pool right now, and when you combine that with a Zerg advantage in late game PvZ, it's not the worst balance we've ever had but it looks much worse than it is because the maps are favoring the race that already has balance advantages. It's stupid.
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On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote:
What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?:
Infestors cannot cast while burrowed.
Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap)
I like this. Overseers should cost 1 supply, the "supply-free" detection would be a spore, just like how T has turrets and P has cannons.
Infestors not being able to cast while burrowed is good.
I think with Nydus, they should also make it so they don't spread creep by themselves, so queens can't pop through and spam tumors and then the T or P player can't build anything in their base anymore.
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On September 30 2019 14:12 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 11:19 geokilla wrote:
What if we had better Protoss and Terran maps? That should help with balance right? No... that is not a solution in anyway. Creating a map that gives the other two races a better edge is a bandaid at best and doesn't fix the real issue. There are clear bug exploits at play too that need to be fixed immediately, as far as everything else, they should have looked into the cost effectiveness of everything much sooner.
The real issue is the totality of things. You can't divorce the maps from balance because they are an essential part of determining balance. Take Zerglings. If it weren't for chokes and ramps at the first two bases, then they would rightly be considered absurdly overpowered in the early game.
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It would be really nice to be able to link sc2 accounts to TLnet. In balance discussions like these, I'd be able to skip through the gold/plat players' whines and trollposts, and give more consideration to GMs, for they actually have real investment in the game and way more credibility.
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On September 29 2019 13:23 JJH777 wrote:
This is the problem with balancing the game around different races being strong at different points of the game. The idea that Zerg should be strong in late game but weak in the early game or that other races should be strong at a certain time and weak late-game is so stupid but Blizzard has admitted to doing it and a lot of players support it. That might work well for a while and it has worked for the last few years but in the long term the early/mid-game will be figured out (unless there are broken builds) and whichever race has the best late-game will start winning 90% of the time. Part of it has been the patches they have done but ultimately that mindset and balancing style is the real problem. If you look at the patch notes from last Blizzcon to now the changes aren't as dramatic as the current balance would have you believe and it's due to this. If Blizzard's post blizzcon answer to this is to change the mid-game again I might quit watching StarCraft II. The balance will improve for a while but it will still get to the same point if that's all they change.
Even though the majority of this series didn't go to late-game doesn't mean the status of late-game didn't effect those other games. It dictates every build and decision Trap made.
Every RTS with a strong racial difference is going to have the races being stronger in different phases of the game, you'll never get to perfect balance in in all game situations.
The only solution around it imo is to make the game a mechanical nightmer in order to make balance differences very blury by overshadowing them with the mechanical skill requirement.
Unfortunately that's impossible in our time of normies grown up with phone games where any mechanical skill that requires any degree of deliberate practice is just considered annoying.
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I was playing a 47min ladder game against late game zerg that went Infestors (Infested terran spam), corruptors to counter my collossus and pillage my buildings, multiple Nyduses and even got my main, swarm hosts to attack structures from afar too.
I won in the end because I cannoned up the hell out of one new base while taking out his expansions and he ran out of money and lost his army eventually. granted hes not some great player or anything but cannons can stop any of their bullshit with the Nydus. or a patrolling phoenix.
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EPT
