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On September 30 2019 09:08 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 09:02 Xain0n wrote:
Discussing balance is one thing, these claims of certain races being "badly designed" are definitely uncalled for. I’m not sure it’s uncalled for at all, I just think it’s wrong. PvP is really strategically dynamic, there are lots of viable compositions, there’s a lot of early and mid game benefits from good micro etc, there’s comeback potential etc etc, Protoss itself has a bunch of interesting elements to it. How that intersects with Zerg, yeah it’s a bad matchup but such problems are always blamed on Protoss and how it’s designed. Terran and Zerg are just as ‘badly designed’ as Protoss, indeed I think Terran are the worst of all given how everything intersects.
Hm maybe it would have been better if I said those claims are out of place, I find them frankly embarassing.
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Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch?
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On September 30 2019 09:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch?
I am more interested in a Reynor vs Rogue match, to be honest.
As for Zerg becoming more imba, I am fairly sure Terran can do very well in TvZ with proper builds; Overlord Speed's cost reduction, coupled with Protoss being nerfed in the early/mid game may have made ZvP a Zerg favored matchup at every stage of the game, late is actually more even due to IT's nerf but it seems not to be enough at the moment.
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On September 30 2019 00:13 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 00:03 paddyz wrote:On September 29 2019 20:42 True_Spike wrote:On September 29 2019 20:19 LUK_21 wrote:
Maru wins 5 gslwith terran, all is gud. Rogue wins1time with zerg, clearly its super op and imbalanced Kappa Last year was way more diverse in terms of races that did well and the large skew in balance was mostly (though not entirely) Serral's doing. Maru was literally the only terran player to win any premier tournament in 2018. There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments last year. 7 were won by zerg (6x Serral, 1x Rogue), 3 by terran (all Maru), 2 by protoss (Stats and Classic). Out of the 24 finalists 9 were zerg, 11 were protoss and 4 (!) were terran. There were 12 WCS Circuit/Korea/Global tournaments this year (so far, 2 more coming) and 8 of them were won by a zerg (3x Serral, 2x Raynor, 1x Soo, 1x Dark, 1x Rogue), 3 by protoss (1x Stats, 1x Neeb, 1x Classic) and 1 by terran (1x Maru). Out of the 24 finalists 14 were zerg, 7 were protoss and 3 (!) were terran.  Premier TournamentsCan look at it however you please but if you organise by prize pool, you can see Protoss haven't won a big tournament. Since start of 2018 Protoss have only won tournaments with a prize pool of less than 30k and WCS America (not as competitive). As well as 2nd place finishes. Out of the 22 biggest tournaments (based on prize pool) since the start of 2018 Protoss have not won any .(intentionally leaving out WCS America where Neeb beat Scarlet once). Wins out of the 22 Tournements with a prize pool over 30k since start of 2018: For Protoss: 0 WinsFor Terran: 6 Wins Maru: (WESG in 2018), (2018 GSL S1),(2018 GSL S2),(2018 GSL S3 vs TY in final), (2019 GSL S1) Innovation: (WESG in 2019) For Zerg: 16 WinsSerral: (2018 WCS Global Finals), (2018 WCS 1), (WCS 2), (WCS 3), (WCS 4 vs Reynor in final), (2018 GSL v world), (2019 GSL v World vs Elazer in final), (2019 WCS Spring), (2019 WCS Fall vs Reynor in final) Reynor: (2019 WCS Winter vs Serral in final), (2019 WCS Summer vs Serral in final) Rogue: (IEM XII World Championship), (2019 GSL S3) soO: (IEM XIII Katowice) Dark: (2019 GSL S2) Scarlet: (IEM XII PyeongChang) Protoss players made more money than Terran players in 2018, in spite of Maru carrying the whole race on his back in term of results. Props to Rogue for telling things like they are, but I don’t think blizzard will patch anything before blizzcon. Maybe we could have a new map pool time tho?
LMAO. You people have been hating Protoss so much for the past 10 years that you would literally come up with any bs that goes through your tiny whiny brain to put the blame on the protoss players or the race's design. Open your eyes and see what the real problem with the zerg race is.
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 30 2019 09:08 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 09:02 Xain0n wrote:
Discussing balance is one thing, these claims of certain races being "badly designed" are definitely uncalled for. Uncalled for? We've had at least one whiny player say that a race should be deleted multiple times.
I do honestly think, and have been thinking for a long time, that infestor should legimitly be either remove from the game or change drasticly (something akin to the SW change when it became a completly different unit)
It's a unit that has almost never been either completly useless or completly overpowered. No one likes using them, no one likes playing against them. They are hugly and so stupidly large that you need to give them the ability to move underground as to not fuck up every other unit pathing.
Fungal is an alright ability, it can create some neat scenario with other units, but both neural and infested terran are terrible.
Neural is a gimmick that produce late game fight that are totally impossible to understand to even the most veteran of player. Infested terran have just no place in the game, you can't have just a few of them (the way the current auto-turret work, or even SH) because infestor come way to late in the game to harass and aren't mobile enough, so you need an absolute fuck ton of them to do anything, in witch case you either absolutly never use them because you need to build 10 infestor and use all their energy (like in HOTS) or they buff them and suddenlly your 60 infested terrans blow up a late game army.
Infestor being in the game block so many other interesting way to play the game as zerg and I feel like it's very possible to balance the game without the infestor in the game. Obviously some buff would be needed to zerg anti-air but it open up so many more possibilty.
With that said, maybe Blizz has a magical patch in store, I don't think I'm the only one who never thought they would see the raven beeing a cool units.
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On September 29 2019 11:35 phodacbiet wrote:
Why do players like Rogue and Dark look down or think they are better than Serral in macro game? Serral is a macro/end game Zerg. Both of these guys have played Serral in the late game before and got stomped. Silly Rogue.
he just should say, no, I am just a loser, how can I beat Serral, he is a god.
just like you.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'm glad that he pointed out the map pool. The map pool right now is ridiculous, even if Zerg late game wasn't stupid strong vs Protoss they still have a massive advantage because of the stupid maps.
I know the map pool is community voted on, but at some point Blizz needs to make an executive decision and veto certain maps from coming to the pool to protect the pool from becoming far too favoring to one race over the others. Having a pool of maps that are all gigantic is always going to favor Zerg regardless of the rest of the balance of the game.
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I agree with most of what has been said here. The infestor and the nydus are both way too much for protoss to reasonably handle right now. The nydus rush builds are still incredibly hard to hold because they require special preparation that completely deviates from standard play, but this map pool and the overlord speed cost buff have both exacerbated the issue by both making it harder to scout in time, and making it so zerg is now guaranteed to get an overlord into the base. The infestor is back to how it was in WOL, and has way too much utility for the cost, but now protoss (and to a lesser extent, terran) have few if any actual counters to them once there are enough of them out. The infestor issue isn't going to go away unless they either undo the feedback nerf or find some other way to make it so protoss can kill them without having to sacrifice a bunch of units to fungals and neurals. Either that or do something about infested terrans. The only way infestors seem to die right now is if the zerg misclicks them when moving them.
On September 30 2019 10:26 Vindicare605 wrote:
I'm glad that he pointed out the map pool. The map pool right now is ridiculous, even if Zerg late game wasn't stupid strong vs Protoss they still have a massive advantage because of the stupid maps.
I know the map pool is community voted on, but at some point Blizz needs to make an executive decision and veto certain maps from coming to the pool to protect the pool from becoming far too favoring to one race over the others. Having a pool of maps that are all gigantic is always going to favor Zerg regardless of the rest of the balance of the game. This is one of the first map pools since I started playing again almost 2 years ago where I've wished I had more than 3 vetoes. The maps are way too big and open and it makes PvZ straight up not fun to play anymore. A lot of the thirds are wide open with few places to effectively place walls, which has made roach/ravager busts, hydra busts, ling floods, and the like way more potent than normal. The openness also severely hinders protoss all-ins and timing, which are basically all protoss has left against zerg right now while also making highly mobile builds like muta builds even stronger. I don't mind the maps for PvT and PvP, but for PvZ they're horrid.
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What if we had better Protoss and Terran maps? That should help with balance right?
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On September 30 2019 09:32 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 09:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch? I am more interested in a Reynor vs Rogue match, to be honest.
Right on. That would be a very epic 3-2 series in a bo5. It's pretty much a toss-up on who would win, but if I had to bet, I'd say Rogue.
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On September 30 2019 06:10 paddyz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 01:37 waiting2Bbanned wrote:@paddyz Leaving aside the mental gymnastics you had to do to ignore the Aligulac balance graphs (how hard is it to flat-out deny the right-most end of the graph where all 3 races are basically equal LOL), I'm just gonna address the part where it seems to you that Trap's play was as great as it could be, while Rogue was just carried over by the easiest race to play: go look at some of Neeb's wins over Z if you want to see what good PvZ is like. As far as the 'Trap is the best PvZ player, but nothing to do against the big bad zerg' theory, you can look at Zest's showing against Rogue in the quarterfinal, where he actually put up a fight despite being far from his best form this year and PvZ being his worst MU. For the record, I don't think Trap is 'a shit player', just that he was massively outplayed in this finals and perhaps he might've done better if Rogue wasn't his teammate. I also don't think Dark is a shit player just because he got outplayed this time in the semis, although you might be able to find some balance reason for that and I can't wait to read about it  Players have ups and downs, sometimes they do great for a whole tournament just to fall apart in the finals (see soO's GSL finals), while other players struggle through a tournament only to shine on the last day. It's why we play these games instead of just handing out trophies based on ladder ranking. Rouge played Terribly vs Zest and Zest has it as his worst matchup because its the worst matchup in the game. I am not going to judge if Zest played far from his best form, its tricky to judge a Protoss based on the builds they go with in a matchup that trends towards loss without a big risk working, Zest was effective but ultimately its up to the Zerg if he wins it seems.
What this translates to is "P does well = Z played bad, P doesn't do well = Z is OP"
One can't really say massively outplayed if its an unfair matchup (which Rogue even admitted) where one side has to resort to risks that shouldn't work out. Zerg won 66% of the ZvPs that tournament.
Wait, so if Z does an all-in that's an auto-win, but if P does one that's just "risks that shouldn't work out"??
"I also don't think Dark is a shit player just because he got outplayed this time in the semis, although you might be able to find some balance reason for that and I can't wait to read about it ". Petty
Translation: "I have the monopoly on being right, any other opinion is just petty"
..or maybe just show us on the doll where the sarcasm hurt you?
I don't think that's how comments work..
Stick to logic and stats next time I won't partake in some ad hominem petty back and forth.
Wait, what?? Again, a different opinion is not an 'ad hominem'. If you're not sure, look it up
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On September 30 2019 11:19 geokilla wrote:
What if we had better Protoss and Terran maps? That should help with balance right?
No... that is not a solution in anyway. Creating a map that gives the other two races a better edge is a bandaid at best and doesn't fix the real issue. There are clear bug exploits at play too that need to be fixed immediately, as far as everything else, they should have looked into the cost effectiveness of everything much sooner.
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What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?:
Infestors cannot cast while burrowed.
Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap)
Nydus network takes twice the build time when not summoned on creep, unit deploy speed should be significantly decreased, and price should be reverted to the older cost (similar to the protoss warp in, and instant mobility should not be that cheap, or that quick).
Queen range should be decreased an increment.
What if Nydus can only summon a limited number of nydus worms? Like a vulture had 3 spider mines in bw
Not so serious thoughts:
Broodlords should have to pay for broodlings like Carriers have to pay for interceptors.(and fix the range bug)
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On September 30 2019 10:26 Vindicare605 wrote:
I know the map pool is community voted on
Where the hell is this coming from?
Back to the subject:
Poor rogue, he hasn't got a chance to meet the famous tl terran whining squad (alongside with blizzard balance team, or are they the same people?). They would definitely clarify why he is wrong about everything. That blizzcon/gsl champion (and his buddy serral) just don't know what they are talking about. Why can't they understand one obvious goddamn thing: warprism and forcefields are most annoying mechanics ever that are so frustrating to play against! Why does everyone has to produce units in their base, while protoss can warp it anywhere on the map? It just ruins the fun for most skilled players out there! For gods sake!
On a serious note:
Is it just me or there is still no news on balance team resigning? Because if 2 (two!) WORLD CHAMPIONS opinions on their level of competence given within 2 weeks period are not enough, then i don't know what is.
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On September 30 2019 09:32 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 09:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch? I am more interested in a Reynor vs Rogue match, to be honest. As for Zerg becoming more imba, I am fairly sure Terran can do very well in TvZ with proper builds; Overlord Speed's cost reduction, coupled with Protoss being nerfed in the early/mid game may have made ZvP a Zerg favored matchup at every stage of the game, late is actually more even due to IT's nerf but it seems not to be enough at the moment.
Agreed. Actually, I believe map changes to be a far better tool for finetuning balance.
I would only change those units where there is a common consensus that they are not fun to play against (independent of balance).
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On September 30 2019 09:32 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2019 09:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Lmao these comments made me hope Serral gets to play rogue at BlizzCon. No way Rogue wins. And how did Zerg get more imba after a Zerg nerf patch? I am more interested in a Reynor vs Rogue match, to be honest. As for Zerg becoming more imba, I am fairly sure Terran can do very well in TvZ with proper builds; Overlord Speed's cost reduction, coupled with Protoss being nerfed in the early/mid game may have made ZvP a Zerg favored matchup at every stage of the game, late is actually more even due to IT's nerf but it seems not to be enough at the moment.
Damn you better tell Ty and Maru about dem proper builds I'm sure they didn't tryed them yet...
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Make nydus a bit more expensive and increase feedback range by 2 ot sth. Maybe even through an upgrade?
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I think nydus cost nerf is definitely coming.
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France12906 Posts
I highly doubt Blizzard will do a thing before BlizzCon though right? There is not enough time left for testing some tweaks and they are probably preparing the big post blizzcon patch (or a text announcing the end of WCS à la HOTS? Hopefully not!). Same for maps, ~1 month left before BlizzCon is not enough time for a new map pool.
So it will be interesting to see how players "adapt" to the current state of the game.
Bear in mind when discussing what Rogue said tho, that Trap independently of the PvZ state, was not a really good PvZer anyways.
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On September 30 2019 14:39 DanceSC wrote:
What is every ones thoughts on these potential changes?:
Infestors cannot cast while burrowed.
Upgrading into an Overseer will cost 1 supply (on top of providing overlord supply, this way their detector counts towards max army cap)
Nydus network takes twice the build time when not summoned on creep, unit deploy speed should be significantly decreased, and price should be reverted to the older cost (similar to the protoss warp in, and instant mobility should not be that cheap, or that quick).
Queen range should be decreased an increment.
What if Nydus can only summon a limited number of nydus worms? Like a vulture had 3 spider mines in bw
Not so serious thoughts:
Broodlords should have to pay for broodlings like Carriers have to pay for interceptors.(and fix the range bug)
LOL, maybe delete Zerg completely ?
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EPT
