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On October 02 2019 17:27 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:On October 01 2019 21:08 Harris1st wrote:On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash? Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell. Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far. Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar..... Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those. What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect.... I did and I know  Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
Funny? Perhaps. Balanced? No.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 02 2019 17:27 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:On October 01 2019 21:08 Harris1st wrote:On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash? Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell. Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far. Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar..... Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those. What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect.... I did and I know Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
Energy based, 25 energy max, 2 energy per shot. As I don't remember the energy regeneration we may want to play around the numbers. This way the BL will shoot, but you can get a brief break with EMP/Feedback and attack in the break. It's not a good solution but probably the easiest without doing a big redesign.
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On October 02 2019 13:36 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote:
I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss. I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form.  Classic 3 - 0  SerralRogue 4 - 0 Classic
Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
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France12908 Posts
On October 02 2019 18:13 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 13:36 Boggyb wrote:On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote:
I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss. I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 SerralRogue 4 - 0 Classic Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
It was prime Serral actually. Or you mean that Serral only became prime Serral after patch 4.3? :o
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On October 02 2019 18:07 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 17:27 Harris1st wrote:On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:On October 01 2019 21:08 Harris1st wrote:On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash? Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell. Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far. Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar..... Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those. What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect.... I did and I know Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again. Funny? Perhaps. Balanced? No.
Why not?
I also like the idea deacon posted.
On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect....
EMP Infestors obviously ...
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On October 02 2019 18:13 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 13:36 Boggyb wrote:On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote:
I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss. I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 SerralRogue 4 - 0 Classic Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3).
You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned? 
It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG
It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld
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On October 02 2019 18:41 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 18:13 Xain0n wrote:On October 02 2019 13:36 Boggyb wrote:On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote:
I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss. I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 SerralRogue 4 - 0 Classic Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3). You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned? It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld
It's been eleven months, you should already know that I reply every time I think it's necessary.
This topic has been discussed before: Serral found his monster form before GSL vs The World 2018 but surely after Nation Wars V finals.
At IEM and WESG Serral was already a top Zerg and already the best western player but he could't win international tournaments against koreans(he hadn't won one yet, he could beat them but he got swept 0-3 twice in the ro4 at IEM and WESG) and he wasn't the best in any matchup: Rogue was better in ZvP, Dark in ZvT, soO in ZvZ.
Boggyb's comparison is someway misleading since Rogue was clearly stronger than Serral at the time.
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do i have to restate myself? we have a gsl CHAMPION basically say his chip is forfeit because of balance but that's ok? are we only only going to see zvz finals? isee much people see this as just trash talk but what if you took it seriously?
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On October 02 2019 18:39 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 18:07 Acrofales wrote:On October 02 2019 17:27 Harris1st wrote:On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:On October 01 2019 21:08 Harris1st wrote:On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash? Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell. Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far. Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar..... Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those. What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect.... I did and I know Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again. Funny? Perhaps. Balanced? No. Why not? I also like the idea deacon posted. Show nested quote +On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect.... EMP Infestors obviously ...
Seems quite obvious why not:
1. Broodlings live for a limited time. If this costs BL health to fire (like a carrier, but life instead of minerals), then broodlings should probably not have a countdown timer... and I don't think you want to see what that will do for balance.
2. At the current BL strength, making every shot cost health would render them completely useless. Imagine when a single Thor AoE / psi storm can wipe out your entire end-game army as they limp slowly back across the map after depleating their health taking out a planetary/nexus. They would never get used (like the carrier, that you apparently want to use as a blueprint). So lets say you buff their damage/broodling duration to account for this Broodlord damage is already pretty stupid high. Making it stupider higher, but BL life depleting, makes them very gimmicky.. and we've seen gimmicks are very hard to balance.
3. Health regen is slooowwwwwwwww. So unless you add in some viper-esque ability that lets them eat a hatchery to regen health, it'll rely almost exclusively on queens to keep them alive. Which is not going to be fun for anybody.
So, adding in just that ability you mentioned will render brood lords completely useless. You'd have to do something to address these points, which no doubt has further ramifications for balance of other things (like thors).
And to add to that, brood lords aren't even the real problem right now. This does nothing to address infestors...
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On October 02 2019 04:50 Durnuu wrote:
Never forget that time usopsama got away freely for posting an image macro
I miss usopsama.
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On October 02 2019 19:52 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 04:50 Durnuu wrote:
Never forget that time usopsama got away freely for posting an image macro I miss usopsama.
His goblet would be filled by his own tears, these days.
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Pretty sure he disappeared before serral started winning/you started posting.
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On October 02 2019 18:12 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 17:27 Harris1st wrote:
Broodlords:
Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP.
5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
Energy based, 25 energy max, 2 energy per shot. As I don't remember the energy regeneration we may want to play around the numbers. This way the BL will shoot, but you can get a brief break with EMP/Feedback and attack in the break. It's not a good solution but probably the easiest without doing a big redesign.
Then we should add some kind of ammo limit to other units, too, what about 10 shots for siege tank before a scv must come by and refuel? Or 10 shots for a liberator before he has to return to the star port? Not to speak of a marauder, who cannot carry more than four grenades, for sure.
Remember, guy, there's no such thing as "free units". Broodlings aren't units, they're projectiles. Crappy projectiles, that can be killed before they hit. It would be free units if they didn't have a timer on them, like the interceptors of a carrier. They are units, but they are not free either.
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I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
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On October 02 2019 19:50 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 18:39 Harris1st wrote:On October 02 2019 18:07 Acrofales wrote:On October 02 2019 17:27 Harris1st wrote:On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:On October 01 2019 21:08 Harris1st wrote:On October 01 2019 18:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
I gotta ask, for T vs, Z, why not bring back Irradiate?
It only works vs Biological, it wouldnt break TvP, i dont know what unit to put it on, i guess Raven? To replace Hunter missles?
Late game splash? Well, the Viper pretty much has irradiate already. Would be weird if 2 races have the same spell. Terran has the new EMP and on a cloaked unit. I feel there can be done so much more with that than what we've been shown so far. Protoss needs a similar upgrade for HT's feedback range. Full energy Infestors would die. Every other Infestor just will be like "go home, you are drunk" Also Protoss would still need Observers, which I think makes this a somewhat fair and cool to watch interaction huh? maybe you didnt play broodwar..... Parasitic bomb is an Anti air splash spell.. Irradiate was an ANTI - BIOLOGICAL spell that didnt affect mech units. Like parasitic bomb wrecks Vikings, irradiate would be useless vs those. What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect.... I did and I know Broodlords: Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP. 5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again. Funny? Perhaps. Balanced? No. Why not? I also like the idea deacon posted. On October 01 2019 21:52 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
What does the EMP do for TvZ lategame? I'm talking Irradiate to counter clumps of Zerg, like broods, Corruptors especially, Ultras big ass roach balls, ect.... EMP Infestors obviously ... Seems quite obvious why not: 1. Broodlings live for a limited time. If this costs BL health to fire (like a carrier, but life instead of minerals), then broodlings should probably not have a countdown timer... and I don't think you want to see what that will do for balance. 2. At the current BL strength, making every shot cost health would render them completely useless. Imagine when a single Thor AoE / psi storm can wipe out your entire end-game army as they limp slowly back across the map after depleating their health taking out a planetary/nexus. They would never get used (like the carrier, that you apparently want to use as a blueprint). So lets say you buff their damage/broodling duration to account for this Broodlord damage is already pretty stupid high. Making it stupider higher, but BL life depleting, makes them very gimmicky.. and we've seen gimmicks are very hard to balance. 3. Health regen is slooowwwwwwwww. So unless you add in some viper-esque ability that lets them eat a hatchery to regen health, it'll rely almost exclusively on queens to keep them alive. Which is not going to be fun for anybody. So, adding in just that ability you mentioned will render brood lords completely useless. You'd have to do something to address these points, which no doubt has further ramifications for balance of other things (like thors). And to add to that, brood lords aren't even the real problem right now. This does nothing to address infestors...
First of all, we are just spitballing here
Second, I think you are exaggerating all your points by a large margin.
Third, we have a somewhat similar mechanic to Queens + BL with Stim + Medivac. It works quite well
Now, my idea would be to change nothing on the Broodlords but make evey Broodling cost 1-2 Hp, making a wave 2-4 HP total. You can easily get 10+ waves of, you just have to care not to overcommit or be outpositioned (which is kinda already the case, but would be punished way harder with these changes)
Yes the Infestor is stupidly powerful. So is Nydus. These two have to be addressed ASAP imo
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On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote:
I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
As someone that played WoL before the infestor buff I can assure you Voidrays beat corruptors. Their problem is more with fungal and parasitic bomb.
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On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote:
I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again)
Dunno. Isn't that what Tempest can do already anyway?
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On October 02 2019 19:56 DBooN wrote:
Pretty sure he disappeared before serral started winning/you started posting.
That's accurate. I know him, however, and I wouldn't miss such extreme anti foreigner bias.
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Canada8989 Posts
On October 02 2019 19:52 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 04:50 Durnuu wrote:
Never forget that time usopsama got away freely for posting an image macro I miss usopsama.
Which one was he? The name ring a bell but I'm not sure.
I miss Royda/Rayda, you know the "Technicaly the dictionary has no autority over the meaning of words" guy.
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On October 02 2019 20:29 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 19:52 DBooN wrote:On October 02 2019 04:50 Durnuu wrote:
Never forget that time usopsama got away freely for posting an image macro I miss usopsama. Which one was he? The name ring a bell but I'm not sure. I miss Royda/Rayda, you know the "Technicaly the dictionary has no autority over the meaning of words" guy.
Probably ran out of new email addys to make new accounts 
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EPT
