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On October 02 2019 20:10 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote:
I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again) As someone that played WoL before the infestor buff I can assure you Voidrays beat corruptors. Their problem is more with fungal and parasitic bomb.
1. WoL Voidrays != LoTV voidrays. Not even close.
2. That said, yes, fungal with the corrupters is the real killer. Faster voidrays would let them be able to dodge it easier as well.
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On October 02 2019 20:14 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote:
I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again) Dunno. Isn't that what Tempest can do already anyway?
Tempest are pretty slow. They rely on range to do anything, but aren't that great in straight up combat. So if Zerg can force an engagement, Protoss only real option is to warp home. They are currently the only lategame option left for Protoss, but a minor mistake can (and often does) end the game immediately.
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On October 02 2019 19:38 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 18:41 Harris1st wrote:On October 02 2019 18:13 Xain0n wrote:On October 02 2019 13:36 Boggyb wrote:On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote:
I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss. I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form.  Classic 3 - 0  SerralRogue 4 - 0 Classic Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3). You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned?  It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld It's been eleven months, you should already know that I reply every time I think it's necessary. This topic has been discussed before: Serral found his monster form before GSL vs The World 2018 but surely after Nation Wars V finals. At IEM and WESG Serral was already a top Zerg and already the best western player but he could't win international tournaments against koreans(he hadn't won one yet, he could beat them but he got swept 0-3 twice in the ro4 at IEM and WESG) and he wasn't the best in any matchup: Rogue was better in ZvP, Dark in ZvT, soO in ZvZ. Boggyb's comparison is someway misleading since Rogue was clearly stronger than Serral at the time.
I agree with you. Serral had his peak from GSL vs the world to the HSC after Blizzcon, then he played below his peak from IEM Katowice to ASUS ROG and then he reached his peak again at GSL vs the world 2019.
Peak Serral has never lost a series.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 02 2019 19:58 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 18:12 deacon.frost wrote:On October 02 2019 17:27 Harris1st wrote:
Broodlords:
Wouldn't it be kind of funny that everytime Broodlings spawn, the BL loses health? Like not paying with minerals like Carriers but with HP.
5 HP per wave or sth. So if you want to besiege something, after 8-10 rounds of Broodlings, you have go to back and regen health again.
Energy based, 25 energy max, 2 energy per shot. As I don't remember the energy regeneration we may want to play around the numbers. This way the BL will shoot, but you can get a brief break with EMP/Feedback and attack in the break. It's not a good solution but probably the easiest without doing a big redesign. Then we should add some kind of ammo limit to other units, too, what about 10 shots for siege tank before a scv must come by and refuel? Or 10 shots for a liberator before he has to return to the star port? Not to speak of a marauder, who cannot carry more than four grenades, for sure. Remember, guy, there's no such thing as "free units". Broodlings aren't units, they're projectiles. Crappy projectiles, that can be killed before they hit. It would be free units if they didn't have a timer on them, like the interceptors of a carrier. They are units, but they are not free either.
Broodlings have HP, have pathing, block other ground units from going under the BL. As far as I care they are units that block other ground units. Thus they're units. Because they don't cost anything they're free units.
The biggest issue with BL is that they have 12 range and they body block with broodlings. Thus we can counter them either by
1) Increasing anti-bl range(aka the Tempest solution)
2) Removing the body block feature of broodlings(aka let's make BL useless)
3) Making their shots more strategic(aka the Swarmhost solution)
Or think about something else. THe biggest issue is that if you don't have the range(and Terran anti-BL unit has lower range) you have to go closer to the BL which means, uh, how to say it, you have to go through the broodlings god damn it!
So, guy, I remember, but I refuse. And on the top of that - feel free to fix the issue yourself. We have big maps which favor zergs, we have BL/infestor meta which favors zergs and that was said by the last GSL Champion and the last World Champion.
I didn't notice siege tank blocking charge lots to charge them BTW
Edit> Also I chose to make their shots more strategic and the notion was that they will be shooting with slightly longer breaks, that's why the shot should cost 2 energy(which is regained pretty fast). The point was to be able to stop them shoot for a while to MOVE through the BLings. Other solution is to give Thors 13 range and that's really stupid, but that's where we will end because all the other solution is being blocked with posts like yours.
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Northern Ireland26236 Posts
On October 02 2019 20:55 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 20:10 DBooN wrote:On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote:
I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again) As someone that played WoL before the infestor buff I can assure you Voidrays beat corruptors. Their problem is more with fungal and parasitic bomb. 1. WoL Voidrays != LoTV voidrays. Not even close. 2. That said, yes, fungal with the corrupters is the real killer. Faster voidrays would let them be able to dodge it easier as well.
Speed voids might create their own issues, maybe makes PvP even more wonky but maybe they’d be fine.
It would definitely help in circumventing and picking off bases, especially in conjunction with prisms.
My instinct would be we’d see players doing that only to ultimately lose when the final engagement against the Zerg ball has to happen. Sort of like cutting off a hydra’s head only for it to grow back, which we see already. Speed voids would probably make that easier and more consistent.
Speedier Voids might help in splitting but ultimately final engagements are still going to be rough to do. It’s a lot of different units to control, spells to cast, splits and continual retargetting so you’re not wasting DPS on ITs and Broodlings
I do like the idea as something to perhaps test in a patch though.
There’s a lot of elements that make Zerg lategame so good, the units, the game flow and creep and moveable static defence.
What about making moving static D cost some minerals past a certain threshold? Make it quite a large distance so it doesn’t affect the early game?
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On October 02 2019 20:55 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 20:10 DBooN wrote:On October 02 2019 20:05 Excludos wrote:
I think Lowko had an interesting idea to let void rays become useful again by re implementing the movement speed upgrade Protoss used to have. Voidray's aren't strong enough to just 1A against Corrupters, neither perhaps should they be, but if they're fast enough they can abuse the slow movement speed of Broodlords to dance around them and get picks wherever possible. It also doesn't make the matchup necessarily any easier, but allows for higher skill ceiling (As opposed to just buffing Carriers or something until Protoss lategame becomes unbreakable again) As someone that played WoL before the infestor buff I can assure you Voidrays beat corruptors. Their problem is more with fungal and parasitic bomb. 1. WoL Voidrays != LoTV voidrays. Not even close. 2. That said, yes, fungal with the corrupters is the real killer. Faster voidrays would let them be able to dodge it easier as well.
Yeah I'm pretty sure void rays do beat corruptors, I think they are even cost efficient vs mutas.
It is the infestors and spore crawlers that beat skytoss, not flying units.
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On October 02 2019 21:50 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 19:38 Xain0n wrote:On October 02 2019 18:41 Harris1st wrote:On October 02 2019 18:13 Xain0n wrote:On October 02 2019 13:36 Boggyb wrote:On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote:
I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss. I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 SerralRogue 4 - 0 Classic Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3). You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned? It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld It's been eleven months, you should already know that I reply every time I think it's necessary. This topic has been discussed before: Serral found his monster form before GSL vs The World 2018 but surely after Nation Wars V finals. At IEM and WESG Serral was already a top Zerg and already the best western player but he could't win international tournaments against koreans(he hadn't won one yet, he could beat them but he got swept 0-3 twice in the ro4 at IEM and WESG) and he wasn't the best in any matchup: Rogue was better in ZvP, Dark in ZvT, soO in ZvZ. Boggyb's comparison is someway misleading since Rogue was clearly stronger than Serral at the time. I agree with you. Serral had his peak from GSL vs the world to the HSC after Blizzcon, then he played below his peak from IEM Katowice to ASUS ROG and then he reached his peak again at GSL vs the world 2019. Peak Serral has never lost a series.
Is it more likely that the entire korean scene got worse after Nation Wars or that a young, uprising player improved and became the best in the world? Also, you are the one who admittedly didn't notice any difference in Serral's level of play from BlizzCon 2018 to Katowice 2019 while it was crystal clear that he was shakier even in the series he won.
Sarcasm doesn't authomatically make your opinions right, you know?
Thus said, Stats at ASUS Rog for sure, probably Reynor(maybe even Inno, but I'm not sold on that) beat a Serral reasonably close to his top shape.
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stats, soo, innovation each beat peak serral.
maybe that's why those are the three korean reps in nation wars lol
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In the grand scheme of Broodlord/Infestor, Neural definitely needs to go if we want to keep Broodlord's main gimmick of countering all land units by providing body-blocking broodlings. Alternatively toss will need a stronger anti broodlord option that isn't stupidly expensive, because the go to right now is capital ship (carrier/tempest + mothership) plus Archon plus HT, and getting any one of those units neuraled will throw off your unit balance. Alternatively if we don't want to address Neural, making Void Rays a better anti broodlord unit (or a better unit in general so we actually see it being used outside of proxy stargate+ shield battery cheese) is also a good option
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On October 03 2019 00:17 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2019 21:50 Charoisaur wrote:On October 02 2019 19:38 Xain0n wrote:On October 02 2019 18:41 Harris1st wrote:On October 02 2019 18:13 Xain0n wrote:On October 02 2019 13:36 Boggyb wrote:On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote:
I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss. I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 SerralRogue 4 - 0 Classic Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3). You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned? It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld It's been eleven months, you should already know that I reply every time I think it's necessary. This topic has been discussed before: Serral found his monster form before GSL vs The World 2018 but surely after Nation Wars V finals. At IEM and WESG Serral was already a top Zerg and already the best western player but he could't win international tournaments against koreans(he hadn't won one yet, he could beat them but he got swept 0-3 twice in the ro4 at IEM and WESG) and he wasn't the best in any matchup: Rogue was better in ZvP, Dark in ZvT, soO in ZvZ. Boggyb's comparison is someway misleading since Rogue was clearly stronger than Serral at the time. I agree with you. Serral had his peak from GSL vs the world to the HSC after Blizzcon, then he played below his peak from IEM Katowice to ASUS ROG and then he reached his peak again at GSL vs the world 2019. Peak Serral has never lost a series. Is it more likely that the entire korean scene got worse after Nation Wars or that a young, uprising player improved and became the best in the world?
Or is it more likely that Classic and Maru just were in insane form when they faced Serral?
During the time when Serral was "below his peak" he still beat Rogue, Zest, Trap and Classic at WESG, most of them pretty convincingly and won WCS Leipzig shortly before that with only 4 map losses.
But no, it's impossible that a player in great form can take down Serral - if he loses it must be because he "wasn't playing at his best"
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On October 03 2019 01:41 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2019 00:17 Xain0n wrote:On October 02 2019 21:50 Charoisaur wrote:On October 02 2019 19:38 Xain0n wrote:On October 02 2019 18:41 Harris1st wrote:On October 02 2019 18:13 Xain0n wrote:On October 02 2019 13:36 Boggyb wrote:On October 02 2019 12:24 Anc13nt wrote:
I know it sounds surprising but since May 2017, Rogue has had 65.52% winrate against Koreans offline, including a 76.52% winrate against Korean protoss offline. I did not know he was that strong against protoss. I feel like anyone who has paid even a passing bit of attention to SC2 over the last 3 years knows Rogue is good at ZvP when he's in form. Classic 3 - 0 SerralRogue 4 - 0 Classic Rogue is indeed very strong in ZvP, it's his strongest matchup. That was not prime Serral tho, these results happened before he rose to the top(much like Maru-Serral 3-0, Maru-Dark 4-3). You make it too easy. Can you maybe not jump on EVERY post Serral is mentioned? It was at IEM Katowice 2018. Two weeks later he won 3:1 vs Classic at WESG It is somewhat agreed that Serral found his monster/ peak form just before GSLvWorld It's been eleven months, you should already know that I reply every time I think it's necessary. This topic has been discussed before: Serral found his monster form before GSL vs The World 2018 but surely after Nation Wars V finals. At IEM and WESG Serral was already a top Zerg and already the best western player but he could't win international tournaments against koreans(he hadn't won one yet, he could beat them but he got swept 0-3 twice in the ro4 at IEM and WESG) and he wasn't the best in any matchup: Rogue was better in ZvP, Dark in ZvT, soO in ZvZ. Boggyb's comparison is someway misleading since Rogue was clearly stronger than Serral at the time. I agree with you. Serral had his peak from GSL vs the world to the HSC after Blizzcon, then he played below his peak from IEM Katowice to ASUS ROG and then he reached his peak again at GSL vs the world 2019. Peak Serral has never lost a series. Is it more likely that the entire korean scene got worse after Nation Wars or that a young, uprising player improved and became the best in the world? Or is it more likely that Classic and Maru just were in insane form when they faced Serral? During the time when Serral was "below his peak" he still beat Rogue, Zest, Trap and Classic at WESG, most of them pretty convincingly and won WCS Leipzig shortly before that with only 4 map losses. But no, it's impossible that a player in great form can take down Serral - if he loses it must be because he "wasn't playing at his best"
That's historical revisionism at its finest, I bet you considered Serral not worthy of holding a candle to Classic(who shortly after lost 0-4 to Rogue in the same matchup) and Maru at the time, now you want to make me believe he was peaking before he was capable of winning a single international tournament?
We might discuss about Serral's form in the first months of 2019(it was clearly suboptimal, a step down), after he was already World Champion but there is no way he was just as good as early as March 2018: he was just a top tier Zerg, not the best player in the world, and results clearly show that.
Stats(especially) and Reynor beat Serral when he was playing well enough, your claims are pure sensationalism.
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On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game.
Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018.
You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017.
Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
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I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages.
Quote if you agree.
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On October 03 2019 02:46 Charoisaur wrote:
On topic - I'm pretty sure Rogue is right that Serral won't be able to do anything against him in a long macro game.
Yes, he beat him at the last Blizzcon but that wasn't peak Rogue. peak Rogue was from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice 2018.
You could clearly see in his play vs Serral that it wasn't the Rogue from 2017.
Is he in his old form again? I don't know. But if he is confident, so am I.
You already tried to do something similar once, but Serral and Rogue aren't symmetrical.
Rogue has never beaten Serral offline, non peak Serral even defeated peak Rogue(2-1 at IEM Katowice 2018); I have to remind you Rogue was just as confident last year right before being dismantled in macro games.
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages.
Quote if you agree.
I agree with you, Viper.
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IMO for Starcraft to work in the long run as a competitive and watchable game when execution is perfect it needs to follow this structure:
There are a handful of viable builds you can open with in a rock, paper, scissors type sense some builds "beat" other builds but not in the lose the match instantly sort of way it just puts you ahead or behind. Once this phase has played out a handful of mid-game strategies are possible in the same way some "beat" others if you were ahead you get more ahead if you were behind you catch up then another similar dynamic in late game. Someone wins when they finally get far enough ahead.
I don't know exactly what steps you take to get there, but I guess it means no ultimate compositions. Everything has a counter and it means more ways to hide information. Hidden information shouldn't be so strong that it ends the game when execution is good but it can confer advantages. Maybe tech needs to be more distinctive and confer more clear (when I say clear I mean to a spectator) advantages. Costs need to be played with maybe. Current costs still conform to SC1 conventions even though they really changed how opening economy works. I think the economy head start favored Zerg. As it stands now it seems like a good Zerg can scout everything and has an ultimate composition. Therefore when they execute, they win.
I don't know that Blizzard is willing to put in the effort though. Perhaps time for SC3? Are the economics there?
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Canada8989 Posts
On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages.
Quote if you agree.
Why not
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 03 2019 04:02 MarcusRife wrote:
IMO for Starcraft to work in the long run as a competitive game when execution is perfect it needs to follow this structure:
There are a handful of viable builds you can open with in a rock, paper, scissors type sense some builds "beat" other builds but not in the lose the match instantly sort of way it just puts you ahead or behind. Once this phase has played out a handful of mid-game strategies are possible in the same way some "beat" others if you were ahead you get more ahead if you were behind you catch up then another similar dynamic in late game. Someone wins when they finally get far enough ahead.
I don't know exactly what steps you take to get there, but I guess it means no ultimate compositions. Everything has a counter and it means more ways to hide information. Hidden information shouldn't be so strong that it ends the game when execution is good but it can confer advantages. Maybe tech needs to be more distinctive and confer more clear advantages. Costs need to be played with maybe. Current costs still conform to SC1 conventions even though they really changed how opening economy works. I think the economy head start favored Zerg. As it stands now it seems like a good Zerg can scout everything and has an ultimate composition. Therefore when they execute, they win.
I don't know that Blizzard is willing to put in the effort though. Perhaps time for SC3? Are the economics there?
We have seen how much money they're willing to put into the SC2 in the first half of this year.
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On October 03 2019 04:19 deacon.frost wrote:
We have seen how much money they're willing to put into the SC2 in the first half of this year.
Right so maybe a new game can excite interest. Probably no single player campaign. But, use the new business models that have taken over the industry since SC2 came out. Otherwise, this will go the way of SC1 and become more and more niche. Of course Blizzard is not what it once was.
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On October 03 2019 03:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I think we should open the blizzcon thread as soon as possible and let the usual suspects discuss 'all things serral' in there, that's the way we beat 2013's glorious 1.2k pages.
To be fair 2013 did cram almost the whole event into one day
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 03 2019 04:28 MarcusRife wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2019 04:19 deacon.frost wrote:
We have seen how much money they're willing to put into the SC2 in the first half of this year. Right so maybe a new game can excite interest. Probably no single player campaign. But, use the new business models that have taken over the industry since SC2 came out. Otherwise, this will go the way of SC1 and become more and more niche. Of course Blizzard is not what it once was.
I lost all my hopes at the last Blizzcon with mobile Diablo...
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EPT
