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Serral probably tested it with Terrans against some other pro(s).
IMBA balance talk! Ultimate mind game too!
Basic, natural assumption over the topic is that his perspective on the issue holds some value.
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On September 11 2019 00:27 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:24 Luolis wrote:On September 11 2019 00:19 KobeSteak wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? Lol seriously? You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing? Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before? Regardless, I think it's tough to ask ppl for 'style' changes that are predicated on immense physical ability. I don't know if Serral has so much of a late game 'style' as he is just the most mechanically dominant player.
It is a style allright, the same one as RoRo and Sniper but its still a style.
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On September 11 2019 02:09 alestormsabaton1994 wrote:
A big issue with the balance is simply how MUCH easier zerg is to play than terran. Unless it changed a lot if LotV, I played them both at a near GM level and mechanically, zerg is leagues easier than terran. The only real challenge as a zerg player was to scout well, because of the drone/army situation with larvas. Didn t play much protoss so i wont comment on them.
Im sure at the highest level the giant gap in skills and mechanics required also plays a huge role.
If zerg was much harder to play, they would be way less strong.
Zerg being easier to play was maybe(maybe!) a thing in 2012; LoTV is another thing entirely.
The only real problem I see with TvZ is that if Blizzard buffed Thors with the intention of making them outrange Broodlords, they should be doing that; at the moment, mass Thors doesn't seem to be a suitable answer.
I also think ghosts are used/mixed in too few at the moment.
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On September 11 2019 02:37 UnLarva wrote:
Serral probably tested it with Terrans against some other pro(s).
IMBA balance talk! Ultimate mind game too!
Basic, natural assumption over the topic is that his perspective on the issue holds some value.
*....as Terran against some other Zerg pro(s).
To avoid any and every misunderstandings.
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What I like with Serral is he is very modest meanwhile very respectful with his opponents.
That makes him a great player AND a great person.
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Serral: "others just play worse at tournaments, they do more mistakes"
meanwhile, he is 7.4k mmr and has to have a 9-1 ratio vs those ppl to keep his mmr LUL
No serral, ur just better, online or offline.
There is 2 big advantages zerg has:
1) lategame.
Z simply beats protoss lategame, no matter what army comp P has. it might be very close vs a real big air army + disruptor + storm, but it's close to impossible to ever rebuild the perfect army for P - Zerg has no trouble doning so.
Terran might even outedge Zerg with their perfect army, say Raven / New ghost / mass scan / Thor / BC / range libs - but its close to impossible to control perfectly - and even harder to rebuild than the ultimate P army.
2) consistancy.
Zerg is a race that has to defend. it can be hard at times, but its possible to consistnatly beat everything that is thrown at them.
Terran has a much harder time doing so - they just feel more vulnerable to stupid builds; probably less so then they used to, but its still more common to see top terrans die to allins than top zergs.
Protoss might not be as vulnerable to allins, but to play protoss well, you have to be aggressive - and that is way less reliable than being able to defend all game and expand. Protoss used to have that luxery when their air army was overpowered, but even then they felt much less stable than zerg does atm.
I'm very positive that the domination Serral shows is close to impossible with terran, and absolutely impossible with protoss - no matter how much better you are.
Don't get me wrong, Serral is the best - by far. but him not losing AT ALL is something that wouldn't be the case for someone that is by far the best and played T or P.
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On September 11 2019 01:20 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:44 deacon.frost wrote:On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players. And I'm inclined to agree. Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs. Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half). Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame. Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs. This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received. Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered. Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though. Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level. Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi. It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins. At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we?  So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it  ) He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game) oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL Innovation and Maru are very different players imo. Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics. Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving. We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around. Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam. Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg
Another great post showing how zerg/protoss players adapt/evolve. Like you mentioned TY still plays the same way, harass spam.
Everytime when Zerg or Protoss think of a new strategy, the balance whines comes out in full force and gets an instant nerf. For example, the Adept phenoix timing that was used against Terran. Terran kept dying because they refuse to adapt. Eevery game they use the same double medivac drop against a PHENOIX opener and expect to do damage. Toss defects the drops, counters and win.
Protoss/Zerg can pretty much do everything that Terran can do mechanically. Not really a big separations between all the top Korean pros. Dark/Stats/Maru/Innovation.
I don't understand why so many haters trying to discredit Serral by complaining about his race. Do you see us complaining about Terran's dominance in GSL for years?
As of right now , Serral is clearly the best people in the world, as a fan people should just enjoy it while it last.
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On September 11 2019 03:29 KalWarkov wrote:
Serral: "others just play worse at tournaments, they do more mistakes"
meanwhile, he is 7.4k mmr and has to have a 9-1 ratio vs those ppl to keep his mmr LUL
No serral, ur just better, online or offline
How many tournaments this obvious fact needs to be repeated? Everyone can see he is the best player, with best meta, with best, and most honest approach to the game, most cool Tournament player ever, best strats (he know them all), most modest person, most intense drive for a win, the greatest aura over the sphere of space, the most resources to spread over the creep, more meaningful contacts than anyone else...
'European Elitism' born with The God-King, and The Top Elite himself is everyway anti-thesis of anykind elitism.
SC2 will do well when Serral's larva get their first step on a creep.
Blizzard should listen what Serral says.
My laptop will be ruined, about 0.27 litres of beer on the keyboard tonight. They will stuck.
Serral fandom never! The Overmind!
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On September 11 2019 00:00 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 23:43 DomeGetta wrote:
Also what I think most people are missing here is the main reason Z is so strong late game imo is not BL/Infestor but the fact that they can bank multiple remaxes in larva. BL/Infestor is very strong but it can be traded vs. Being able to trade out max armies and remax instantly on BL/Infestor again or some other tech makes it super tough to face. Looks like Dark TY was very competitive going to have a look. Remaxing quickly isn't too relevant in the lategame when you need to morph corruptors first before morphing into BL, and infestors require a good amount of time to accumulate energy, unless you're talking about maxing out with purely tier 1-2 units, which no pro does lategame.
Even with the morph time on corrupters its still easily 4 x faster than a Terran remaxing out off production buildings. Infestors start with a fungal once you have the upgrade. So even if you are able to take a very good trade if the zerg is macroing his eco well you wont be able to get back on top of him b4 hes remaxed and repeat etc.
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On September 11 2019 02:47 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 02:09 alestormsabaton1994 wrote:
A big issue with the balance is simply how MUCH easier zerg is to play than terran. Unless it changed a lot if LotV, I played them both at a near GM level and mechanically, zerg is leagues easier than terran. The only real challenge as a zerg player was to scout well, because of the drone/army situation with larvas. Didn t play much protoss so i wont comment on them.
Im sure at the highest level the giant gap in skills and mechanics required also plays a huge role.
If zerg was much harder to play, they would be way less strong. Zerg being easier to play was maybe(maybe!) a thing in 2012; LoTV is another thing entirely. The only real problem I see with TvZ is that if Blizzard buffed Thors with the intention of making them outrange Broodlords, they should be doing that; at the moment, mass Thors doesn't seem to be a suitable answer. I also think ghosts are used/mixed in too few at the moment.
Mostly agree with this as long as you are talking about Cyclone / Mech or BC Mech styles. Bio is still as hard as its ever been..there really isnt a comparison from any other race regarding degree of difficulty vs bio terran. But the BC/Clone mech is just as easy as any Zerg or Protoss comp. Late game micro off these comps isnt any harder either.
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I don't understand why so many haters trying to discredit Serral by complaining about his race. Do you see us complaining about Terran's dominance in GSL for years? -KobeSteak
Me neither. Serral has been off-racing for years with both T and P, and people still whine about his Z.
He can be the top Zerg and the best player in the world, only because it's not about the race for him.
He has been already years over 6000+ MMR player of T and P on ladders. People whine about that he is so good.
Sun Tzu said something about warfare:
Know your enemies!
Z, P, and T whine over the fact. That's absurd. In the game of warfare.
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On September 11 2019 02:46 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:27 Waxangel wrote:On September 11 2019 00:24 Luolis wrote:On September 11 2019 00:19 KobeSteak wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? Lol seriously? You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing? Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before? Regardless, I think it's tough to ask ppl for 'style' changes that are predicated on immense physical ability. I don't know if Serral has so much of a late game 'style' as he is just the most mechanically dominant player. It is a style allright, the same one as RoRo and Sniper but its still a style.
When Serral started winning big(and at the time of his most prestigious and arguably most dominant considering his level of play and how hard his path was), BL Infestors was a long forgotten composition and Carriers were still very strong, lategame ZvP was mostly fine; also, Serral mantained his streak at HSC when Terran were clearly much quicker to understand the shift in TvZ's meta and were erasing every Zerg.
It's immensely wrong to compare Serral to Roro and Sniper who thrived in a very favourable meta and disappeared rightly after, and to think Serral's success can be attributed to the race of his choice is delusional.
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@Xainon: When new meta comes, Serral tests it from Enemy's perspective.
3/4 of "Imba" comes from that. Whole European got uplifted when they realized...
Blizzard would be wise to force ladder players to 'go random'.
Balance talks would go much more mildly there after, and overall level of gaming would improve. Q.E.D.
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I think the big problem with terran vs. anything late game is just how bad vikings are. This unit is in dire need of a late game buff. Terran doesn't have good AtA options and are forced into a narrow gameplan with Thors that are so slow and immobile. If terran had a better way to counter Zerg and Protoss air late game with a mobile army alot of their problems would be alleviated.
Also I think PvZ is much more balanced late game for a protss. But my Protoss/Zerg is only M1 level, so that doesn't really mean anything
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Little Serral played countless games against his big brother Protosser.
100-0 with all race match-ups.
Another 100, and another, and another... *Mama hugs crying little Serral*
Zerg was the race that was finally victorious.
Serral was born.
Now The God-King says what he thinks, and everybody listen. Just everybody. It is not about balance whine, its about the balance.
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Northern Ireland26236 Posts
On September 11 2019 01:26 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 01:20 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:44 deacon.frost wrote:On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players. And I'm inclined to agree. Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs. Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half). Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame. Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs. This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received. Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered. Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though. Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level. Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi. It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins. At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it ) He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game) oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL Innovation and Maru are very different players imo. Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics. Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving. We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around. Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam. Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg Alright i'll bite. Tell me an idea for something that will make Terran do well again. I'm sure that with your imagination Terran will destroy :D
I mean maybe stuff like the poster first suggested in this sub-topic.
Ghosts flanks are really underused vs Templar flanks, especially considering that ghosts move faster and can cloak. It feels Zergs have squeezed a lot of extra utility out of Infestors by using burrow, its spells and splitting them up, likewise Templar with prism support, or spreading them behind sight blockers and high grounds.
Terrans have squeezed a ton out of the Raven historically too, turret harass, or targeting a medivac with Hunter seeker and boosting into enemy clumps etc.
Ghosts in a combat capacity, maybe not so much. What was said that they’re often just sitting with the bio in a big group does somewhat ring true to me anyway.
Medivacs with boost are extremely fast. Terrans have scan to fully set up an attack in advance with scan. I haven’t really seen much use of a suicide ghost drop in a boosted medivac to try and nail an EMP on casters. It wouldn’t be hugely more difficult than weaving an oracle in for an envision and getting away.
As a caveat, such things might not be practically feasible, nor even if they are doable may not swing the tide in lategame.
Perhaps because both Toss and Zerg actually rely on casters to win games over stock combat units they have really explored how to keep them alive and use them better. Terrans maybe only have to consider such things more in the odd game that goes to real late game and not every game they are playing and practicing.
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Well that s not a surprise...
I stopped SC for some months then .. when i would like to reach my old playing strenght, i have as Terran to face against violents games... Why ? Cause I have to practice much more than a Zerg or a Protoss player.
I couldn t imagine how the game is challenging and demanding for a pro player Terran, it s insane how the creep is always spreading everywhere without any penalty system, I mean a real penalty system... Obviously, the idea of creep is good and it s a good addition since SC:BW - it s an interresant thing, but it s poorly implemented like what ? Z player can create about 300 tumours ?
Which race has a free invisible unit at the start of the game ?
Which race has to struggle against creeping the ground ? while Z have to roll with the punchs then draw up an action plan, forcing Terrans to endure long games with an high number of sequenced APM ?
That s not a surprise if AlphaStar has also a longer curve of learning with Terrans...
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Also confused why so many people are acting like he said there was a balance problem. He absolutely did not lol. A race being favored in one part of the game will always exist. Z being favored vs T in the late game has basically been there throughout SC2 outside of the 2 month period with the raven nukes. To me outside of that time this is the closest to even late game meta in TvZ that has ever existed.
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On September 11 2019 00:42 KobeSteak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players. And I'm inclined to agree. Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs. Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half). Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame. Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs. This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received. Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered. Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though. Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level. Thank you, finally someone who can understand. I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle. E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
3 rax reaper: nade nerfed to kill Byun style reaper games.
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
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On September 11 2019 05:20 GoSuNamhciR wrote:
I think the big problem with terran vs. anything late game is just how bad vikings are. This unit is in dire need of a late game buff. Terran doesn't have good AtA options and are forced into a narrow gameplan with Thors that are so slow and immobile. If terran had a better way to counter Zerg and Protoss air late game with a mobile army alot of their problems would be alleviated.
Also I think PvZ is much more balanced late game for a protss. But my Protoss/Zerg is only M1 level, so that doesn't really mean anything
Terran can obliterate late game protoss with mass BCs. The only time I've seen pro level mass BCs lose to lategame protoss is Maru vs Dear.
Every other time the Protoss mass tempest compositions get steamrolled
Maru vs Classic
Beastyqt vs Mana
Beastyqt vs Harstem
Heromrine vs Beastyqt
TY vs Creator
Vikings do not need buffs. Thors are fine against BLs which are even slower than thors.
PvZ is basically unwinnable in the lategame for Protoss.
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EPT
