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United States27773 Posts
On September 11 2019 00:24 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:19 KobeSteak wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? Lol seriously? You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing? Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before?
Regardless, I think it's tough to ask ppl for 'style' changes that are predicated on immense physical ability. I don't know if Serral has so much of a late game 'style' as he is just the most mechanically dominant player.
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On September 11 2019 00:24 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:19 KobeSteak wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? Lol seriously? You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing? Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before?
I'm a low master random for all 3 races so I know to some degree how each race works.
In my own experience Terran is the easiest to attack from 3 angles. Whereas breaking a Terran siege location with other 3 races from 3 different location is a nightmare.
Maybe you should actually play the game at a higher level first and see preceptive from all 3 races rather than theory crafting.
No disrespect, but most of the whiners on TL in general are around gold level and usually have no idea what they are talking about
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On September 11 2019 00:29 KobeSteak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:24 Luolis wrote:On September 11 2019 00:19 KobeSteak wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? Lol seriously? You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing? Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before? I'm a low master random for all 3 races so I know to some degree how each race works. In my own experience Terran is the easiest to attack from 3 angles. Whereas breaking a Terran siege location with other 3 races from 3 different location is a nightmare. Maybe you should actually play the game at a higher level first and see preceptive from all 3 races rather than theory crafting. No disrespect, but most of the whiners on TL in general are around gold level and usually have no idea what they are talking about
Well, i play the game at a higher level :D
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On September 11 2019 00:31 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:29 KobeSteak wrote:On September 11 2019 00:24 Luolis wrote:On September 11 2019 00:19 KobeSteak wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? Lol seriously? You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing? Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before? I'm a low master random for all 3 races so I know to some degree how each race works. In my own experience Terran is the easiest to attack from 3 angles. Whereas breaking a Terran siege location with other 3 races from 3 different location is a nightmare. Maybe you should actually play the game at a higher level first and see preceptive from all 3 races rather than theory crafting. No disrespect, but most of the whiners on TL in general are around gold level and usually have no idea what they are talking about Well, i play the game at a higher level :D
Don't you love when people start arguing with their league?  Especially when they hit noobs like you, love it Next time he starts explaining to Maru how to play and how easy it is
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On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
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On September 11 2019 00:35 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:31 Luolis wrote:On September 11 2019 00:29 KobeSteak wrote:On September 11 2019 00:24 Luolis wrote:On September 11 2019 00:19 KobeSteak wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? Lol seriously? You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing? Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before? I'm a low master random for all 3 races so I know to some degree how each race works. In my own experience Terran is the easiest to attack from 3 angles. Whereas breaking a Terran siege location with other 3 races from 3 different location is a nightmare. Maybe you should actually play the game at a higher level first and see preceptive from all 3 races rather than theory crafting. No disrespect, but most of the whiners on TL in general are around gold level and usually have no idea what they are talking about Well, i play the game at a higher level :D Don't you love when people start arguing with their league? Especially when they hit noobs like you, love it Next time he starts explaining to Maru how to play and how easy it is
Similar to how you explain how hard Maru/Terrans in general has to play against Toss/Zergs. That they have to play 2-3 times better to wins games lol. Not sure why you are so sensitive and butthurt over a ghost comment
Let me know when Terran learns how to flank with ghost (which you still can't dispute)
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On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players. And I'm inclined to agree. Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs. Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half). Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame. Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs. This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received. Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered. Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though. Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
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On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players. And I'm inclined to agree. Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs. Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half). Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame. Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs. This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received. Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered. Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though. Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi.
It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins.
At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about?
(edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it  )
He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game)
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On September 10 2019 23:43 DomeGetta wrote:
Also what I think most people are missing here is the main reason Z is so strong late game imo is not BL/Infestor but the fact that they can bank multiple remaxes in larva. BL/Infestor is very strong but it can be traded vs. Being able to trade out max armies and remax instantly on BL/Infestor again or some other tech makes it super tough to face. Looks like Dark TY was very competitive going to have a look.
I think the reason why Zerg is strongest in late game is mostly due to creep mechanics, which gives an enormous map control in late game, and allow to have mobile static defence (yeah that's sound weird, yet, it's true), blocking attack path and thus removing the big weakness of Infestor BroodLord which is mobility.
I mean imagine a dumb map which would prevent creep to be put after a certain point. Certainly not a good solution, but in such a map would Infestor/BL really that much scary to you?
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for zerg it's the amount of minerals/gas that is accruing paired with the minimal effort of defending outward expansions that makes playing mid-to-late game more comfortable. i mean that if you can afford to plant 5 spines and a couple spores on every important expansion, it automatically becomes much more defendable against the type of units that would usually siege it in ZvT or ZvP--without the cost of supply.
on the flipside, zerg can play misdirection and simply run +2 speedbanes in regardless of what is there.
the cost of that tactic is offset by the relatively higher amount of resources they are gaining.
it's the age-old playstyle of map control and denying the newest mining base from your opponent. they eventually lose the ability to play on even footing.
and then it's the amount of damage that upgraded cyclones can deal with lockon (to buildings) that lets that playstyle punish and make it more difficult for zerg to play comfortably.
if then, terran moves across the map to trade thors, vikings, cyclones, hellbats with broodlords, infestors, zerglings, ravagers.. the opportunity to punish outside bases is higher in adrenalings and banelings because they actually threaten bases, while cyclones are slower (hellions do not threaten bases) and are expensive to throw against bases.
when the dust settles, both players re-max and zerg has an advantage if they trade relatively evenly.
in terms of composition, in terms of bases mining during the whole ordeal, in terms of the speed of threat to freshly mining bases.
there is a lot of consideration for mech vs bio play against zerg for certain maps. i won't pretend to know the nuances.
i will just instead trust that the pros understand and play their way for extremely good reasons.
mixing ghosts, honestly, has never been a good situation for terran, except in the situation of PvT. but i'll concede it would be cool to see stuff like medivac-drop with ghost EMP bombs. again, an extremely expensive and taxing type of solution.
there was a time when mass-ghosts were the solution to anything zerg, but those times are long gone.
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On September 11 2019 00:44 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players. And I'm inclined to agree. Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs. Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half). Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame. Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs. This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received. Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered. Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though. Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level. Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi. It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins. At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it ) He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game)
oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao
Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL
Innovation and Maru are very different players imo.
Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described
Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics.
Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving.
We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ
Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around.
Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam.
Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg
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On September 11 2019 01:20 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 00:44 deacon.frost wrote:On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players. And I'm inclined to agree. Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs. Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half). Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame. Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs. This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received. Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered. Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though. Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level. Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi. It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins. At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it ) He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game) oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL Innovation and Maru are very different players imo. Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics. Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving. We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around. Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam. Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg
Alright i'll bite.
Tell me an idea for something that will make Terran do well again. I'm sure that with your imagination Terran will destroy :D
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So Serral is honest, at least. Z lategame needs to be adjusted. Since Blizzard made Immortal All Ins harder, this was the wrong direction - it makes the only chance for P harder vs Z. Pretty mental....
As a Protoss it feels like there is just a very few unit ciombos that work frequently, while especially Z has a so big variatey in its game, its just sick. This males P being quite boring at times, if you dont add some cheese or 2 base all ins to your game. going to mid/lategame is always quite similar if you dont go for sth crazy
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On September 11 2019 01:26 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 01:20 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:44 deacon.frost wrote:On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players. And I'm inclined to agree. Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs. Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half). Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame. Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs. This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received. Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered. Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though. Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level. Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi. It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins. At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it ) He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game) oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL Innovation and Maru are very different players imo. Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics. Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving. We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around. Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam. Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg Alright i'll bite. Tell me an idea for something that will make Terran do well again. I'm sure that with your imagination Terran will destroy :D
Terran do well again?
They won 3/8 non-WCS circuit premier tournaments this year and just received huge buff
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On September 11 2019 01:31 rasi86 wrote:
So Serral is honest, at least. Z lategame needs to be adjusted. Since Blizzard made Immortal All Ins harder, this was the wrong direction - it makes the only chance for P harder vs Z. Pretty mental....
As a Protoss it feels like there is just a very few unit ciombos that work frequently, while especially Z has a so big variatey in its game, its just sick. This males P being quite boring at times, if you dont add some cheese or 2 base all ins to your game. going to mid/lategame is always quite similar if you dont go for sth crazy
He only said that it requires perfect play for zerg to have 100% lategame win. No one has perfect play, Serral included. The advantage Z had lategame vs T before has been significantly diminished with these latest patches. Now, we just need to see more games to fully appreciate how it plays out, instead of instantly whining.
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On September 11 2019 01:37 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 01:26 Luolis wrote:On September 11 2019 01:20 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:44 deacon.frost wrote:On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players. And I'm inclined to agree. Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs. Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half). Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame. Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs. This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received. Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered. Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though. Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level. Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi. It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins. At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it ) He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game) oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL Innovation and Maru are very different players imo. Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics. Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving. We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around. Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam. Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg Alright i'll bite. Tell me an idea for something that will make Terran do well again. I'm sure that with your imagination Terran will destroy :D Terran do well again? They won 3/8 non-WCS circuit premier tournaments this year and just received huge buff
Alright let's rephrase if you really want me to. What do you suggest Terrans to innovate on? I'm sure that you as a non-terran have good ideas for the brainless terrans who just bash mechanics and hope to win with those))
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On September 11 2019 01:46 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2019 01:37 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 01:26 Luolis wrote:On September 11 2019 01:20 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:44 deacon.frost wrote:On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote:On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote:On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote:On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs. Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac. Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play? Like, seriously? to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players. And I'm inclined to agree. Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs. Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half). Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame. Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs. This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received. Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered. Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though. Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level. Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi. It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins. At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it ) He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game) oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL Innovation and Maru are very different players imo. Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics. Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving. We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around. Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam. Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg Alright i'll bite. Tell me an idea for something that will make Terran do well again. I'm sure that with your imagination Terran will destroy :D Terran do well again? They won 3/8 non-WCS circuit premier tournaments this year and just received huge buff Alright let's rephrase if you really want me to. What do you suggest Terrans to innovate on? I'm sure that you as a non-terran have good ideas for the brainless terrans who just bash mechanics and hope to win with those))
I play Terran. No need to get defensive.
I don’t play sc2 at the M1 level or higher so I leave the innovation to the greatest minds in the game.
All I’m doing is describing what I see from the top players of each race
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what serral says  RIP terran-.- only 1 korean terran @global finals tells the rest of the story....
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Serral is SC2 MVP and Wax is writing staff MVP. GG
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A big issue with the balance is simply how MUCH easier zerg is to play than terran. Unless it changed a lot if LotV, I played them both at a near GM level and mechanically, zerg is leagues easier than terran. The only real challenge as a zerg player was to scout well, because of the drone/army situation with larvas. Didn t play much protoss so i wont comment on them.
Im sure at the highest level the giant gap in skills and mechanics required also plays a huge role.
If zerg was much harder to play, they would be way less strong.
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WCS
