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On September 10 2019 13:01 finalius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 11:22 pzlama333 wrote:
Does he mean that even the Terran player play perfect, the Zerg still should always win a late ZvT if the Zerg also play perfect. That does not sound good in theory. However, in a real game, players from both side will make mistakes eventually some time. I would like to know how is the fault-tolerance of any race. If one player makes one small mistake, does it cost the whole game, a single fight, or easy to recover? I think he was mostly talking about Infestor vs EMP. Basically, if you babysit your Infestors perfectly, Terran should never get an EMP off on them. And then, they can never take a good fight because neural against BC/Thor, Fungal against bio. Obviously, it's incredibly hard to never get hit by an EMP. I feel its a bit like saying "if you have infinite apm and camera angle like the first alpahstar, blink stalkers are unbeatable". It's true, but a very theoretical argument. The whole goal of modern, high level SC2 mid- to late-game is spreading your opponents attention thin so that he makes mistakes.
Yeah - I think if ghosts couldn't cloak it would a different conversation.
We see in almost every pro game that goes super late if the Terran builds ghosts he manages to get nuke after nuke off on multiple bases - sure most of them get cleaned up before landing - but if you can get nukes off over and over - you can catch a zerg offguard with a cloak ghost or 2 lurking on a high-ground waiting for infestors running to stop BC base sniping (Soul v Reynor) - it seems like viable counter-play to me.
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I read this in Nathanias's voice doing a Serral impersonation.
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On September 10 2019 14:15 DomeGetta wrote:
Only time it makes sense to go pure BL is if they can actually get 30+ and you are only building Thor.
If you have ghost/thor it should just get smashed.
You're probably right, but I made the mistake to assume that a Zerg might be compelled to not make infestors in certain situations. Thinking about it now, I don't think there's ever a reason for a Zerg to not make infestors in ZvT lategame, so let's just forget what I said earlier.
You can't single target the Thor and still interrupt all the snipes - so you need infestors to fungal / IT and neural.
You're right again, but let's just assume that the Zerg has infestors and both players are playing as close to perfect (Maru vs Serral). To Serral's point, assuming the Zerg doesn't screw up, I don't think there's any way for the ghosts to snipe anything as fungal will interrupt it and the ghosts will be dead the next second. Now EMP could technically work. A cloaked ghost avoiding overseers, or some suicidal ghosts could get some EMPs off before dying. Now 0 energy infestor are worthless, but the Zerg didn't lose any actual units. A thor / libs / ghost comp still doesn't trade that well against 20+ broodlord even with depleted infestors. My point is, as good as ghosts are in TvP, I'm not sure they're the answer to broodlord / infestor death-ball.
If transitioning super late game from the mech BC style:
It looks like BC / Liberator / Ghost can be very strong.
I share your sentiment that BCs are probably the best unit Terran players need to explore in late-game TvZ. If a Zerg goes to 20+ broodlords, replacing thors with BC's sounds like a logical decision, as broodlords obviously have no anti-air. Now the 2 problems I see with that BC / liberator / ghost composition are:
1. Going from a thor based army to a BC based army sounds like a nightmare transition-wise. Like you said, you need the libs to zone out the infestors, so you'll need at least 5 starports. And BCs build time is so slow that Terran will be very vulnerable during the transition.
2. It also sounds like a nightmare to control. You need to individually siege the liberators and constantly leap-from them, and then you got the BC's and ghost that both need single fire spell to do meaningful damage (rapid fire can help but only so much), and you also need to manage the EMPs and ideally teleport the BC's to save them. So yeah, maybe Maru or TY can manage that, but who else? I'm also curious to see them try at some point.
Not saying either of these styles are OP just saying that it looks to me like Terran finally has at least some counterplay to BL/Infestor - which I think we will see exploited to a much higher degree by the S class Terrans.
For sure Terran have more counterplay now than in 2011 BL/Infestor era, but Blizzard must be proactive and if the trend continues they will have to take actions, like they finally did with TvP.
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On September 10 2019 13:58 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall -
Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp.
He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch.
I mean, we do have one single sample. Maru vs Solar Game 1 from their first match in GSL (not the rematch in the decider), where BL/Infestor decisively beat mass Thor/Liberator/Ghost. Of course, it was only one game, but feel free to rewatch it and point out what Maru should have done differently. Once there's enough BLs to oneshot Thors (and remember they outrange Thors when you target), Terran is basically shit out of luck.
As Tasteless put it, "This was an illuminating game on the state of TvZ, Artosis. That's all I'm going to say about that."
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Zerg OP confirmed, let's see what Blizzard will do  (nothing? )
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I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts.
They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
One of the best and most recent examples:
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
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On September 10 2019 11:13 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 11:10 BlackPride wrote:
buzzfeed title to an actually great interview is it clickbait if it's actually exactly what it says in the headline and not misleading ?
Dont think it's a clickbait title, but it does sound like one which was what BlackPride suggested, no? xd
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On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
It's quite literally physically impossible to micro bio and/or spellcasters in two places at the same time. Because you need to be actively ordering specific units to move/shoot/cast spells and I've yet to see even the best pros manage that while continuously switching screens back and forth.
Lings/banes/roaches can all be shift-clicked. Bio can't. The closest I've seen would probably be pros send the single-flanking-spellcaster to try for the money fungal/storm/EMP. No more than one though, because they usually die.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 10 2019 17:02 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. It's quite literally physically impossible to micro bio and/or spellcasters in two places at the same time. Because you need to be actively ordering specific units to move/shoot/cast spells and I've yet to see even the best pros manage that while continuously switching screens back and forth. Lings/banes/roaches can all be shift-clicked. Bio can't. The closest I've seen would probably be pros send the single-flanking-spellcaster to try for the money fungal/storm/EMP. No more than one though, because they usually die.
Even Maru in his top play(who has the best unit control by far) wasn't doing it. I don't think the solution is "play godmode" while the other races don't have to 
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On September 10 2019 16:19 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 13:58 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall -
Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp.
He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch. I mean, we do have one single sample. Maru vs Solar Game 1 from their first match in GSL (not the rematch in the decider), where BL/Infestor decisively beat mass Thor/Liberator/Ghost. Of course, it was only one game, but feel free to rewatch it and point out what Maru should have done differently. Once there's enough BLs to oneshot Thors (and remember they outrange Thors when you target), Terran is basically shit out of luck. As Tasteless put it, "This was an illuminating game on the state of TvZ, Artosis. That's all I'm going to say about that."
That game was ridiculously close - he was literally just brute forcing the BL/Infestor all game and fighting for even bases - definitely could have went either way. It came down to the last fight that went horribly - all the ghosts died without landing a single emp or snipe so the infestors threw down 100 ITerrans to tank for the BL and the Thor were caught out. Solar had 12 drones and 1 remax in the bank - so you could argue that Maru really didn't need to be where he was with his units. But I think that game is a perfect example of what we are talking about - he didn't manage to land many emps at all - let his opponent out-mine him (which is definitely harder to prevent on some maps vs others) and took a really bad max fight - so of course he lost. Had a number of things gone different - he could have won.
I think the nuke sieging all game vs. some kind of harass like Thor drops or clone/hell runbys late game to harass might work better and be cheaper - but he managed to make it super close - and he's not nearly as experienced playing mech in general - its probably only recently he started playing this style - so I wouldnt expect it be totally clean. I think if going that style there will need to be some kind of harass though - otherwise catching the infestors out is pretty much impossible if they are in 1 place comfortable and surrounded by spores.
Kind of the same deal if Solar just tried to brute force into the Thor/Ghost/Lib without killing all the ghosts first - would have been the opposite result - thor lib by itself can't fight 25 broods and infestors so he was kinda screwed once the ghosts died.
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Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be...unless you're gonna try to make early-mid-game equal as well, which is impossible. Perfect balance in all stages of the game for all non-mirror MUs is never gonna happen. Trying to attempt the impossible will likely only introduce more problems than solutions.
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On September 10 2019 17:02 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote:I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks. One of the best and most recent examples: https://clips.twitch.tv/GenerousJollyGorillaUncleNoxI know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected. It's quite literally physically impossible to micro bio and/or spellcasters in two places at the same time. Because you need to be actively ordering specific units to move/shoot/cast spells and I've yet to see even the best pros manage that while continuously switching screens back and forth. Lings/banes/roaches can all be shift-clicked. Bio can't. The closest I've seen would probably be pros send the single-flanking-spellcaster to try for the money fungal/storm/EMP. No more than one though, because they usually die.
Watch Soul vs. Reynor from WCS fall qualifiers.
Happens multiple times in multiple games where a couple ghosts catch a ton of infestors - but its always when the infestors are moving back across the map to defend something - which is never gonna happen if you are taking the head butt approach with nukes - but if you are going BC or even some other kind of harass you can force them to move.
Agreed about bio micro - but most of these guys aren't going bio anymore - Cyclone/Helion is no more difficult to micro than roach/ling/bane.
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France12904 Posts
On September 10 2019 17:26 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 16:19 pvsnp wrote:On September 10 2019 13:58 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall -
Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp.
He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch. I mean, we do have one single sample. Maru vs Solar Game 1 from their first match in GSL (not the rematch in the decider), where BL/Infestor decisively beat mass Thor/Liberator/Ghost. Of course, it was only one game, but feel free to rewatch it and point out what Maru should have done differently. Once there's enough BLs to oneshot Thors (and remember they outrange Thors when you target), Terran is basically shit out of luck. As Tasteless put it, "This was an illuminating game on the state of TvZ, Artosis. That's all I'm going to say about that." That game was ridiculously close - he was literally just brute forcing the BL/Infestor all game and fighting for even bases - definitely could have went either way. It came down to the last fight that went horribly - all the ghosts died without landing a single emp or snipe so the infestors threw down 100 ITerrans to tank for the BL and the Thor were caught out. Solar had 12 drones and 1 remax in the bank - so you could argue that Maru really didn't need to be where he was with his units. But I think that game is a perfect example of what we are talking about - he didn't manage to land many emps at all - let his opponent out-mine him (which is definitely harder to prevent on some maps vs others) and took a really bad max fight - so of course he lost. Had a number of things gone different - he could have won. I think the nuke sieging all game vs. some kind of harass like Thor drops or clone/hell runbys late game to harass might work better and be cheaper - but he managed to make it super close - and he's not nearly as experienced playing mech in general - its probably only recently he started playing this style - so I wouldnt expect it be totally clean. I think if going that style there will need to be some kind of harass though - otherwise catching the infestors out is pretty much impossible if they are in 1 place comfortable and surrounded by spores. Kind of the same deal if Solar just tried to brute force into the Thor/Ghost/Lib without killing all the ghosts first - would have been the opposite result - thor lib by itself can't fight 25 broods and infestors so he was kinda screwed once the ghosts died.
It's not only that game though. It's also the fact that Maru decided to throw away all of his practice seeing he couldn't beat an inferior player with it anyways, as he said after the rematch interview.
Thanks for the interview, always nice to read Serral thoughts.
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On September 10 2019 17:29 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 17:26 DomeGetta wrote:On September 10 2019 16:19 pvsnp wrote:On September 10 2019 13:58 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall -
Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp.
He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch. I mean, we do have one single sample. Maru vs Solar Game 1 from their first match in GSL (not the rematch in the decider), where BL/Infestor decisively beat mass Thor/Liberator/Ghost. Of course, it was only one game, but feel free to rewatch it and point out what Maru should have done differently. Once there's enough BLs to oneshot Thors (and remember they outrange Thors when you target), Terran is basically shit out of luck. As Tasteless put it, "This was an illuminating game on the state of TvZ, Artosis. That's all I'm going to say about that." That game was ridiculously close - he was literally just brute forcing the BL/Infestor all game and fighting for even bases - definitely could have went either way. It came down to the last fight that went horribly - all the ghosts died without landing a single emp or snipe so the infestors threw down 100 ITerrans to tank for the BL and the Thor were caught out. Solar had 12 drones and 1 remax in the bank - so you could argue that Maru really didn't need to be where he was with his units. But I think that game is a perfect example of what we are talking about - he didn't manage to land many emps at all - let his opponent out-mine him (which is definitely harder to prevent on some maps vs others) and took a really bad max fight - so of course he lost. Had a number of things gone different - he could have won. I think the nuke sieging all game vs. some kind of harass like Thor drops or clone/hell runbys late game to harass might work better and be cheaper - but he managed to make it super close - and he's not nearly as experienced playing mech in general - its probably only recently he started playing this style - so I wouldnt expect it be totally clean. I think if going that style there will need to be some kind of harass though - otherwise catching the infestors out is pretty much impossible if they are in 1 place comfortable and surrounded by spores. Kind of the same deal if Solar just tried to brute force into the Thor/Ghost/Lib without killing all the ghosts first - would have been the opposite result - thor lib by itself can't fight 25 broods and infestors so he was kinda screwed once the ghosts died. It's not only that game though. It's also the fact that Maru decided to throw away all of his practice seeing he couldn't beat an inferior player with it anyways, as he said after the rematch interview. Thanks for the interview, always nice to read Serral thoughts.
Cmon bruh lmao - biggest Maru fanboy on TL here - Maru drops his plans like every other series he plays after losing a game - especially vs Zerg and you even see him do it vs Terran with proxy 2 rax. Feeling like your best option to win isn't the one you practiced does not mean it's not viable - it just means you think another option gives you a higher % chance to win.
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It feels to me like Thor+Ghost(+Liberator/Tank) can beat Brood Lord+Infestor, unless you get a ridiculous number of Brood lords like 20+ where they start one-shotting Thors. But at that point, wouldn't Vikings become better? You have an opponent that has 80+ supply dedicated to anti-ground, 40+ Vikings would absolutely destroy anything in the air, especially combined with a few Ravens. Their biggest vulnerability is clumping up, then getting fungaled/parasite bombed. That's how Heromarine lost his vikings a few times against Serral. But I didn't see him pre-spread them once. Also, a few ghosts can help prevent the spells that threaten the vikings.
Brood lords are slow, dedicated anti-ground units, while thors are capable of attacking everything pretty well. I don't mind design where masses of flexible units are beaten by masses of dedicated units that soft-counter them. I would like to see it possible to be punished for overcommitting to the slow, dedicated anti-ground units by a Terran with a larger bank tech-switching into mass starport (+ ghosts).
Maybe it's too demanding, but considering we see Zergs having to constantly move their spore crawlers out of nukes, then back into position while re-spreading creep, and considering brood lords are slow enough that you have some time to set up a good engagement, it seems Terran has some APM available to make it happen. I'd love to see it attempted in a professional game once to expose why it wouldn't work, if it doesn't. Hopefully we'll get lucky with Dark vs. TY and see some new lategame in action.
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On September 10 2019 11:13 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 11:10 BlackPride wrote:
buzzfeed title to an actually great interview is it clickbait if it's actually exactly what it says in the headline and not misleading ?
You could have added "in late game" and he isn't so sure about zvp, nice clickbait indeed.
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EPT
