On September 10 2019 13:58 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall - Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp. He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch.
I mean, we do have one single sample. Maru vs Solar Game 1 from their first match in GSL (not the rematch in the decider), where BL/Infestor decisively beat mass Thor/Liberator/Ghost. Of course, it was only one game, but feel free to rewatch it and point out what Maru should have done differently. Once there's enough BLs to oneshot Thors (and remember they outrange Thors when you target), Terran is basically shit out of luck.
As Tasteless put it, "This was an illuminating game on the state of TvZ, Artosis. That's all I'm going to say about that."
I'll see your single game, and raise you a single game lmao.
PLEASE watch Maru vs. Ragna game 3 on King's Cove - if not to see exactly the tactics I described with ghosts (no thors but vs fully rounded BL/Infestor late game) - then only to WITNESS Maru actually go super-saiyan. I have not got the nerd chills like watching that game in a while - JFC lets go boys - blizzcon battle of the GODS incoming - godzilla vs king kong LETS GO
On September 12 2019 03:07 Na1d wrote: yeah sorry forgot that ghosts spawn with +20 armor and snipe is an instant cast
and even if u manage to kill bl infestor with thor + ghost u will just die to ling remax
so basically - because your argument made no sense you're scrapping it and throwing a couple new ones out there - touche my friend touche - you would fit right in with the current executive branch ;D
Maru twice in g3 had complete EMP on all infestors in the late game and still didnt engage zerg army. He elected to continue to bleed out zerg mining bases and prevent the zerg from creating a bank
Why?
Because even Broodlord is still massively OP vs thor/ghost composition
Contrast this with g1 vs Solar
Maru was forced to use his nukes defensively and couldnt stop Solar from creating a bank.
---------
IMO
Not only is Broodlord/infestor too OP, Vipers, Swarm & swarmhost damage vs buildings is also way too OP.
I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage). And/or you just nerf broodling damage. Both would force zerg into a situation where broodlords cant be successfully massed to create game ending situations. They'll have to remix the endgame army composition.
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
If anything I feel it’s the other way around, least I find it easier to babysit a Prism than staggered Templars, especially when trying to time a storm. I think partly that’s because you’re pre-actively planning a move vs reacting quickly to your opponent showing up in the right spot.
I was testing it a bit earlier, seems doable.
On the other hand in how it fits into the flow of a game, Hm. The only scenario I feel you’d ever want to sac medivacs and EMP drop is as a Hail Mary to try and nail all the Infestor energy in a TvZ.
Even assuming you can get the timing down, scan, find a corridor to boost through, drop and nail your EMPs, compositionally it’s going to be very awkward. I mean presumably a game scenario where you both have ghosts and medivacs and can spare them for such a move you probably have an edge anyway to win with a more conventional engagement.
Yeah my point about it is basically that controlling it would probably be less worth than just fighting conventionally. You still need to control your bio and if your APM is being spent on controlling a medivac dropping ghosts and then EMPing i think it's way too much focus on something that doesn't matter if your main army melts at the same time.
One problem for TvP for that is also that if protoss splits the HTs or has them in the prism, dropping ghosts from medivacs is kinda pointless because the main targets are unavailable to be hit.
The way Terran works, atleast with bio, is almost always the way that it's better to take a conventional engagement than micro one or two units in a different spot, because you almost have to babysit your main army.
But the whole discussion is kinda pointless. HeroMarine(I believe) did a ghost flank few days ago.
There were ghost flanks in the PvT before, that's why Templars are nowadays in the prism, ghosts were too dangerous.
It's just not present nowadays that much, which isn't that surprising considering many players stop using ghosts and before that it was mostly for the snipe.
I was specifically talking about medivac drop + ghosts in this post.
On a plus point if someone does do a ghost suicide medivac drop into EMPing all a Zerg’s Infestors to turn the tide one of those lategame stalemates it will be absolutely fucking sick
I don't think it would be better than the hunter-seeker on the own medevac speeding into the enemy
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
All these units that send more units are pretty unfair. Completely nullifies tanks and even turn their strength against them in ff with minimal effort.
The whole broodlord redesign discussion probably has its own long-dead thread somewhere in strategy.
This interview was really good and it's nice to see Serral positive about the chances of the non-Koreans carrying their GSL v World success over to Blizzcon. We'll have to see if the optimism translates into results or if this recent trend is something of a statistical anomaly.
Great interview and well done! I love when you guys give us the players perspective on the state of the game! Also really appreciate Serral being open on Zerg and the game in general. I for one would enjoy a late game victory more over a Zerg player knowing their power spike is up and they still lost.
On September 10 2019 11:46 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: BL/winfestors is the reason why sc2 went from an S tier e-sport to a C tier now.
If blizzard cant learn from history and take forever to fix that imbalance the game is gone for good.
User was warned for this post.
I took a long break from watching SC2 and i have to say, i don't know anything about balance, but from an entertainment point of view, i was shocked to see Zerg late game be more or less the same mess that it was years and years ago when i stopped watching.
Good interview though and thanks for taking the time to do it.
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
If anything I feel it’s the other way around, least I find it easier to babysit a Prism than staggered Templars, especially when trying to time a storm. I think partly that’s because you’re pre-actively planning a move vs reacting quickly to your opponent showing up in the right spot.
I was testing it a bit earlier, seems doable.
On the other hand in how it fits into the flow of a game, Hm. The only scenario I feel you’d ever want to sac medivacs and EMP drop is as a Hail Mary to try and nail all the Infestor energy in a TvZ.
Even assuming you can get the timing down, scan, find a corridor to boost through, drop and nail your EMPs, compositionally it’s going to be very awkward. I mean presumably a game scenario where you both have ghosts and medivacs and can spare them for such a move you probably have an edge anyway to win with a more conventional engagement.
Yeah my point about it is basically that controlling it would probably be less worth than just fighting conventionally. You still need to control your bio and if your APM is being spent on controlling a medivac dropping ghosts and then EMPing i think it's way too much focus on something that doesn't matter if your main army melts at the same time.
One problem for TvP for that is also that if protoss splits the HTs or has them in the prism, dropping ghosts from medivacs is kinda pointless because the main targets are unavailable to be hit.
The way Terran works, atleast with bio, is almost always the way that it's better to take a conventional engagement than micro one or two units in a different spot, because you almost have to babysit your main army.
But the whole discussion is kinda pointless. HeroMarine(I believe) did a ghost flank few days ago.
There were ghost flanks in the PvT before, that's why Templars are nowadays in the prism, ghosts were too dangerous.
It's just not present nowadays that much, which isn't that surprising considering many players stop using ghosts and before that it was mostly for the snipe.
I was specifically talking about medivac drop + ghosts in this post.
On a plus point if someone does do a ghost suicide medivac drop into EMPing all a Zerg’s Infestors to turn the tide one of those lategame stalemates it will be absolutely fucking sick
I don't think it would be better than the hunter-seeker on the own medevac speeding into the enemy
True, that was awesome and god bless Bomber, although mass hunter-seekers still cause me to wake in a cold sweat. Still I’ve been waiting for something new in a highlight reel.
Squirtle’s Archon toilet was definitely up there, but the move was still relatively novel (it was ultimately silly) and it was a weird set with a never seen composition in a GSL final.
All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need. Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is: 1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran. 2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need. Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is: 1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran. 2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
I’m OK with multiple Nyduses personally, the near instant unload is what feels off to me. As it stands it’s a matter of killing it before it pops, or everything is in your base or expansion, feels wonky as hell.
Nyduses that units trickle out of you could spare a small group of units to deal with if it’s placed too aggressively, or Zergs could push them further back and build their forces before moving in.
There’s plenty one could tweak, make them more like in BW or whatever too.
I quite like the idea of Zerg having to outmanoeuvre everything and be constantly active in that sense. But to me lategame Nydus is just a bit too potent. I think most people (not all ofc) want to see a more swarmy, flank and counter-attack oriented Zerg than the BL/Infestor variant, and I think having some kind of viable late game Nydus play is going to have to exist to enable that.
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units?
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units?
I would love to see Thors walking over ultras just for the fun of it !
EPT
