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On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote:
All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need.
Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is:
1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran.
2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
So it s clearly about contains expansion, ie contains creep spreading....
It s not complicated to identify the problem concerning creep tumours.
TL garbage...
User was temp banned for this post.
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Northern Ireland25613 Posts
On September 14 2019 03:41 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote:
All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need.
Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is:
1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran.
2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
So it s clearly about contains expansion, ie contains creep spreading.... It s not complicated to identify the problem concerning creep tumours. TL garbage... User was temp banned for this post.
It amuses me that a guy named Vision hates creep tumours so much
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On September 13 2019 22:35 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2019 18:12 Branch.AUT wrote:On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote:
I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time. If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting. How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units?
Gotta give it some nice, tall legs first to prevent clipping.
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Switzerland50 Posts
On September 10 2019 18:09 IMSupervisor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 17:27 tigon_ridge wrote:
Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be...unless you're gonna try to make early-mid-game equal as well, which is impossible. Perfect balance in all stages of the game for all non-mirror MUs is never gonna happen. Trying to attempt the impossible will likely only introduce more problems than solutions. Sure, but that means we need some maps that allow T and P to play to their strengths, not just giant maps that allow Zerg to get to lategame without much issue.
That!
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On September 15 2019 18:53 Gekk02 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 18:09 IMSupervisor wrote:On September 10 2019 17:27 tigon_ridge wrote:
Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be...unless you're gonna try to make early-mid-game equal as well, which is impossible. Perfect balance in all stages of the game for all non-mirror MUs is never gonna happen. Trying to attempt the impossible will likely only introduce more problems than solutions. Sure, but that means we need some maps that allow T and P to play to their strengths, not just giant maps that allow Zerg to get to lategame without much issue. That!
Yep
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I think this has been an acknowledged given since the end of wol. they are the best reactive race because of larva mechanic and have the best defensive/scouting options in the late game (outside of mass scans in some instances). the real problem is the fedora
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On September 14 2019 01:21 MarianoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 22:35 Harris1st wrote:On September 12 2019 18:12 Branch.AUT wrote:On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote:
I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time. If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting. How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units? I would love to see Thors walking over ultras just for the fun of it !
Can a Collosus actually walk over a Thor or a Ultra? o.O
I honestly don't know, mostly because if you see those units on one screen, one is running away from the other ^^
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 16 2019 21:51 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2019 01:21 MarianoSC2 wrote:On September 13 2019 22:35 Harris1st wrote:On September 12 2019 18:12 Branch.AUT wrote:On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote:
I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time. If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting. How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units? I would love to see Thors walking over ultras just for the fun of it ! Can a Collosus actually walk over a Thor or a Ultra? o.O I honestly don't know, mostly because if you see those units on one screen, one is running away from the other ^^
I swear I saw a collosus walk over an ultra before, can't walk over supply depot and pylon tho (Blizz pls).
And also pheonix should be able to target a spire that thing is a 1000 feets in the air.
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On September 16 2019 21:51 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2019 01:21 MarianoSC2 wrote:On September 13 2019 22:35 Harris1st wrote:On September 12 2019 18:12 Branch.AUT wrote:On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote:
I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time. If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting. How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units? I would love to see Thors walking over ultras just for the fun of it ! Can a Collosus actually walk over a Thor or a Ultra? o.O I honestly don't know, mostly because if you see those units on one screen, one is running away from the other ^^
one for the unit tester xD
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On September 16 2019 22:29 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2019 21:51 Harris1st wrote:On September 14 2019 01:21 MarianoSC2 wrote:On September 13 2019 22:35 Harris1st wrote:On September 12 2019 18:12 Branch.AUT wrote:On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote:
I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time. If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting. How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units? I would love to see Thors walking over ultras just for the fun of it ! Can a Collosus actually walk over a Thor or a Ultra? o.O I honestly don't know, mostly because if you see those units on one screen, one is running away from the other ^^ I swear I saw a collosus walk over an ultra before, can't walk over supply depot and pylon tho (Blizz pls). And also pheonix should be able to target a spire that thing is a 1000 feets in the air.
lol the spire thing. true. a spire should be like 12000 feet in the air i dont get out aa units cant hit it
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Anybody else notice he only mentioned EU players...? Even though he’s constantly said Neeb is one of his hardest opponents. Region bias perhaps? 👀
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On September 17 2019 14:14 StarcraftSquall wrote:
Anybody else notice he only mentioned EU players...? Even though he’s constantly said Neeb is one of his hardest opponents. Region bias perhaps? 👀
SpeCial isn't an EU player. I don't think it means anything that he didn't mention neeb this time.
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"And that's how we know success has changed Serral: he refuses to name his practice partners when he would have gone through all of them one by one last year."
Who were his past practice partners? And can you point me to the interview? Much thanks!
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Northern Ireland25613 Posts
On September 18 2019 05:14 texture13 wrote:
"And that's how we know success has changed Serral: he refuses to name his practice partners when he would have gone through all of them one by one last year."
Who were his past practice partners? And can you point me to the interview? Much thanks!
Only one I can recall 100%, as it was mentioned on Artosis and NoRegret’s excellent ‘In Depth’ show was soul.
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On September 18 2019 06:53 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 05:14 texture13 wrote:
"And that's how we know success has changed Serral: he refuses to name his practice partners when he would have gone through all of them one by one last year."
Who were his past practice partners? And can you point me to the interview? Much thanks!
Only one I can recall 100%, as it was mentioned on Artosis and NoRegret’s excellent ‘In Depth’ show was soul.
Namshar as well.
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On September 13 2019 21:09 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote:
All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need.
Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is:
1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran.
2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
I’m OK with multiple Nyduses personally, the near instant unload is what feels off to me. As it stands it’s a matter of killing it before it pops, or everything is in your base or expansion, feels wonky as hell. Nyduses that units trickle out of you could spare a small group of units to deal with if it’s placed too aggressively, or Zergs could push them further back and build their forces before moving in. There’s plenty one could tweak, make them more like in BW or whatever too. I quite like the idea of Zerg having to outmanoeuvre everything and be constantly active in that sense. But to me lategame Nydus is just a bit too potent. I think most people (not all ofc) want to see a more swarmy, flank and counter-attack oriented Zerg than the BL/Infestor variant, and I think having some kind of viable late game Nydus play is going to have to exist to enable that.
I would tend to agree I have to say both playing as and against zerg in zvt I much more enjoy lategame Ultralisk armies with nydus counters, than the turtle slog of bl infestor late game. If anyone saw game 2 of Maru vs ragnorok in the gsl final it was so much more entertaining to see this style than bl infestor.
Zerg needs some way to inflict damage and leverage an advantage in the late game because of how tough it is to break a Terran player. I think most zerg and reasonable terran’s would agree with me on this. Otherwise Terran would be op due to the strength of thier defenses. It would be nice if bliz could give zerg a mechanism to do this that was not bl infestor. I think a lot of people zerg included just don’t find bl infestor late game that fun or interesting. And that’s the bottom line for me it’s not so much about the ballance but just how slow and boring the gameplay is when zerg reaches this composition. Granted if it were more ballanced it would hopefully lead to my desired result of late game zvt feeling dynamic and fun.
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On September 18 2019 16:06 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2019 21:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote:
All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need.
Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is:
1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran.
2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
I’m OK with multiple Nyduses personally, the near instant unload is what feels off to me. As it stands it’s a matter of killing it before it pops, or everything is in your base or expansion, feels wonky as hell. Nyduses that units trickle out of you could spare a small group of units to deal with if it’s placed too aggressively, or Zergs could push them further back and build their forces before moving in. There’s plenty one could tweak, make them more like in BW or whatever too. I quite like the idea of Zerg having to outmanoeuvre everything and be constantly active in that sense. But to me lategame Nydus is just a bit too potent. I think most people (not all ofc) want to see a more swarmy, flank and counter-attack oriented Zerg than the BL/Infestor variant, and I think having some kind of viable late game Nydus play is going to have to exist to enable that. I would tend to agree I have to say both playing as and against zerg in zvt I much more enjoy lategame Ultralisk armies with nydus counters, than the turtle slog of bl infestor late game. If anyone saw game 2 of Maru vs ragnorok in the gsl final it was so much more entertaining to see this style than bl infestor. Zerg needs some way to inflict damage and leverage an advantage in the late game because of how tough it is to break a Terran player. I think most zerg and reasonable terran’s would agree with me on this. Otherwise Terran would be op due to the strength of thier defenses. It would be nice if bliz could give zerg a mechanism to do this that was not bl infestor. I think a lot of people zerg included just don’t find bl infestor late game that fun or interesting. And that’s the bottom line for me it’s not so much about the ballance but just how slow and boring the gameplay is when zerg reaches this composition. Granted if it were more ballanced it would hopefully lead to my desired result of late game zvt feeling dynamic and fun.
I don't get the "slow and boring" part TBH. Terran can just pick apart Zerg's bases, either with MMM or with Cyclone/Hellion. There is almost never a need to fight head on into BL/Infestor.
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Thanks Wombat_NI and Xain0n!
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Northern Ireland25613 Posts
On September 18 2019 17:10 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 16:06 washikie wrote:On September 13 2019 21:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote:
All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need.
Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is:
1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran.
2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
I’m OK with multiple Nyduses personally, the near instant unload is what feels off to me. As it stands it’s a matter of killing it before it pops, or everything is in your base or expansion, feels wonky as hell. Nyduses that units trickle out of you could spare a small group of units to deal with if it’s placed too aggressively, or Zergs could push them further back and build their forces before moving in. There’s plenty one could tweak, make them more like in BW or whatever too. I quite like the idea of Zerg having to outmanoeuvre everything and be constantly active in that sense. But to me lategame Nydus is just a bit too potent. I think most people (not all ofc) want to see a more swarmy, flank and counter-attack oriented Zerg than the BL/Infestor variant, and I think having some kind of viable late game Nydus play is going to have to exist to enable that. I would tend to agree I have to say both playing as and against zerg in zvt I much more enjoy lategame Ultralisk armies with nydus counters, than the turtle slog of bl infestor late game. If anyone saw game 2 of Maru vs ragnorok in the gsl final it was so much more entertaining to see this style than bl infestor. Zerg needs some way to inflict damage and leverage an advantage in the late game because of how tough it is to break a Terran player. I think most zerg and reasonable terran’s would agree with me on this. Otherwise Terran would be op due to the strength of thier defenses. It would be nice if bliz could give zerg a mechanism to do this that was not bl infestor. I think a lot of people zerg included just don’t find bl infestor late game that fun or interesting. And that’s the bottom line for me it’s not so much about the ballance but just how slow and boring the gameplay is when zerg reaches this composition. Granted if it were more ballanced it would hopefully lead to my desired result of late game zvt feeling dynamic and fun. I don't get the "slow and boring" part TBH. Terran can just pick apart Zerg's bases, either with MMM or with Cyclone/Hellion. There is almost never a need to fight head on into BL/Infestor.
There were periods where this dynamic made for very entertaining games, and still can to this day. When Protoss started using prisms and picking apart Zergs using this composition in Wings I found that more of an enjoyable macro lategame than the timing attacks we often saw.
Just as now, in that era it was brief and Zergs just got better at not being picked apart and forcing you to eventually have to engage a composition you couldn’t kill.
I do agree that slow doesn’t necessarily equal boring here. Brood War mech is slow and methodical but it’s great to watch.
I think one of the problems is that the comp is relatively quick to obtain vs the above, it’s insanely cost efficient and it’s difficult to trade against even with a big eco advantage.
Zergs can posture and move their static D and eventually force you to have to engage their army, and it can become an all or nothing proposition. You don’t have that many games I can remember where you’re just trading well and eventually win, eventually you sort of need to be able to kill that army, and if you don’t they wipe yours out. Other TvZ comps trading is a big factor and it forces engagements all over the map where either side can gain incremental advantages. TvT tank lines are slow and scary too, but you can make comebacks in all sorts of ways by positional play, micro or better tactical decisions.
As you say I don’t think it’s the slow nature that’s boring or frustrating to people generally, I think it’s having that looming dread of eventually having to kill that composition
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Northern Ireland25613 Posts
On September 19 2019 11:16 texture13 wrote:
Thanks Wombat_NI and Xain0n!
No worries man, there are definitely a ton more that he’s mentioned in the past but I alas can’t recall them off hand.
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EPT
