세랄: 우승하는 것이 질린다고 할 수 없지만, 레이너가 지난 두 번의 대회 우승해서 느낌이 달랐다. 아, 연달아 두 번은 아니지만, 어째든 올해 두 번 우승했을 내줬으니 내가 작년만큼 압도적이지 못했다. 그래서 적어도 마지막 대회 만큼은 꼭 우승해서 서킷 1위를 차지하고 보다 좋은 블리즈컨 시드를 확보하고 싶었다.
어째든, 우승이라... 뭐 느낌은 언제나 같다. 그래도 이번은 특별히 뜻깊었던 것 같다.
레이너한테 결승전에서 두 번 진 것 때문에 마음가짐이 좀 달라졌나? 동기부여가 더 되었나?
물론 그렇다. 가끔 진다는 것이... 내가 매번 우승하면 좀, 연습할 필요를 덜 느끼지 않을까? 그래도 내가 작년에 쭉 우승하고 있을 때도 연습은 항상 많이 했다. 하지만 2년 동안 싹쓸이 했으면, 좀 좋지 않은 영향이 있지 않았을까? 그래도 난 운좋게 항상 동기부여가 되어있고... 잘 모르겠다, 몇 번 진게 연습시간을 좀 올려줬던 것 같다.
그래서 나태해진 것까지는 아니고...
그렇다, 난 게으른적은 없었다. 그래도 져서 동기부여가 된건 맞다. 사실 내가 레이너에게 졌던 경기들은 저질러서 안될 실수들 때문이었다. 내가 연습과 경험을 더 쌓아서 게임을 더 잘한다면 고칠 수 있을 거라고 생각했다.
레이너는 뭘 다르게 하길레 다른 서킷 선수들과 다르게 널 이길 수 있는가?
뭐, 일단 실력이 굉장하다. 아마... 확실히 두 번째로 잘하는 것 같다. 그 것만으로도 당연히 나를 이길 가능성이 더 높다. 그리고 올해 초에는 이상한 빌드도 많이 쓰고, 올인성, 도박성이 짙은 전략을 많이 썼다. 요새는 정석적으로 많이 하는 것 같다. 그냥 다른 선수들보다 잘하는 것 같다, 특히 저저전에서. 다른 종족전은 비교적으로 약하지만, 저저전 만큰은 굉장히 쎄다. 그리고, 뭐 잘 모르겠지만, 내가 방심한걸 잘 노리는 경우도 있고, 내가 실수를 할 때도 있다. 한 가지 요소가 때문에이기는 건 아니다.
항상 닙, 히어로마린, 쇼타임 같은 서킷의 탑 선수들을 많이 칭찬한다. 그런데 대회에서 경기를 치루면 너무 일방적으로 이기는 것 같다. 다른 선수들이 너랑 경기 할 때 실력을 발휘 못하는 이유가 있나? 위축되어서 게임을 하는가?
솔직히 나를 두려워하는지는 모르겠다. 그냥... 많은 선수들이 대회에서는 평소 때 보다 게임을 못하는 것 같다. 아, 못한다기 보다는 그냥 이상한 실수를 더 많이 저지른다. 그래서 대회에서는 상대의 실수를 유발시키는 경기 스타일이 연습 때 보다 더 좋은 것 같다. 내 상대들이 나를 두려워하는 것 같진 않지만, 그냥 대회 중 매 순간이 평소와 다를 뿐이다. 나 또한 대회에서 실수가 더 잦다. 누구나 다 그렇지만... 난 그래도 남들에 비해 평소 경기력을 대회에서 잘 낸다.
2018년이랑 2019년에 많은 국제 대회에 참가했는데, 어느 해에 한국 스타2가 더 강했다고 생각하나?
큰 변화는 없었던 것 같다. 팬들은 당장 GSL 대 월드 결과만 놓고 한국판이 약해졌다고 하지만, 운이 좀 작용했던 것 같다. 우리 편에게 좋은 대진이 많이 걸렸고, 그로 인해서 외국 선수들이 많이 올라갔던 것 같다. 그래도 난 한국판이 작년이랑 비슷한 것 같다. 솔직히 별로 변한 것 같진 않다.
그럼 외국판은 어떤가? 작년에 비해 강해졌나? 블리즈컨에서 그대월 처럼 이변을 낼 수 있을 것 같나?
레이너가 작년에 참가하지 못했는데, 올해는 출전할 것이며 잘할 수 있을 것 같다. 아쉽게도 지금까지는 한국인이 참가하는 대회에서 많이 부진하고 있다. 그런데 난 레이너는 한국 선수들을 이길 수 있는 실력을 가지고 있다고 확신한다. 그래서 가장 주목해야 한다고 생각한다. 물론 스페셜도 아주 좋은 성적을 낼 수 있다. 지난번에도 플레이오프에 진출하지 않았는가? 레이너, 스페셜은 진짜 잘 할 수 있을 것 같다. 스페셜은 준비 기간이 있는 대회에 강하고, 서킷에서 못 잡는 레이너를 그대월에서 압도하면서 이를 증명한 것 같다. 물론 일레이저에게도 가능성이 있다. 모두에게 이변을 낼 잠재력이 있지만, 지금 언급한 선수들이 가능성이 가장 많은 것 같다.
올해 블리컨 우승 확률이 어떤가? 또 50-50라고 하진 않겠지?
맞다. 50-50이다. 우승하거나 지거나. 간단하다.
양심적으로 60-40이라고 해야 하지 않냐. 우승도 많이 했는데...
아, 확률을 올리기는 무섭다. 한국 선수들에게 자신들만의 스타일과 전략도 있고, 조가 결정되면 준비할 시간도 많다. 꾀 무섭다. 그래도 내가 우승할 확률도 괜찮다고 생각한다.
요새 저테전 후반전에 대한 말이 많은데, 본인의 생각은 어떤가? 전태양 선수는 세랄 상대로 답이 안나온다고 하고, 조성주도 강민수랑 한판하고 후반을 포기 한 것 같던데.
음, 내 생각에는...
지금 저테전, 저프전 후반전을 놓고 보면, 저그가 완벽하게 게임을 하면 저그가 반드시 이겨야 한다고 생각한다. 그런데 요새 EMP충격파 버프도 있고, 한번 잘못 걸려서 감영충이 다 맞기가 너무 쉽다. 그 순간 그 경기는 바로 지는거다. 진균이 있어야 유령이 상대가 되는데, 한 2마리 정도는 항상 필요하다. 잘 모르겠다. 그렇게까지 상태가 나쁜 것 같진 않다, 특히 감염충 너프를 고려했을 때. 저프전의 경우에는 이제 대량 감염충에만 의존할 수 없다.
그래도 저그가 완변하게 게임을 한다면, 저그의 후반이 테란의 후반보다 확실히 강하다. 저프전 후반은 아직 경험이 부족해서 말하기 애매하다. 감염충 너프 이후 경기를 많이 못했다. 후반전은 한 다섯 판 밖에 못 했다.
마지막으로 하고싶은 말이 있다면?
모두가 응원해줘서 고맙고, 연습해준 선수들에게도 고맙다. 연습해준 사람은 너무 많아서 일일이 언급하진 않겠다. 연습해준 모든 선숙, 나를 응원하는 팬들, 그리고 팀 ENCE에 고맙다고 전하고 싶다.
역시 성공의 맛을 본 세랄은 많이 거만해졌군. 작년이었으면 연습 상대들을 일일이 호명하지 않았을까?
[세랄이 반박하기 전에 인터뷰 컷.]
TL.net's Wax talked to Serral shortly after his 4-1 triumph over Reynor in the finals of WCS Fall. Serral discussed the meaning of his sixth Circuit title, the state of Circuit vs Korea in 2019, late-game Zerg power, and other topics.
Wax: How does it feel winning your sixth title on the Circuit, and whatever number this is overall? Does it feel any different? Can you ever really get tired of winning?
Serral: Well I don't think I can say I can get tired of winning, but obviously it feels slightly different since Reynor took the last two. Well, not the last two, but two WCS stops this year, so I wasn't as dominant. So I really wanted to take the last one at least, so that I would secure my first seed in WCS rankings and get a better seed for BlizzCon.
But, at the same time, winning, I mean... the feelings are around the same anyways. But this was more meaningful, for sure.
So you think losing to Reynor at WCS Winter, and then again at Summer... it changed your mindset? It made you more motivated?
Yeah, sure. Obviously, losing sometimes... If I would win every time, it would probably be, it would take some of the practice needs away. But I think, even when last year when I was winning a lot, I still practiced a lot, and I kept going. But if I would have won everything for two years, I would maybe have been a bit worse? But luckily I have kept my motivation, and... I don't know, I think losing a couple of times for sure raised my practice times a little bit.
So it wasn't like you were getting lazy...
Yeah I wasn't lazy, never, but I still lost, and it for sure gave me more motivation. I felt like the series I lost were because of the kind of mistakes that shouldn't have happened really, and I felt that if I just played better, with more practice and experience, I would be able to fix that.
What do you think Reynor does different from other Circuit players that allows him to beat you?
Well, I mean, he's very skillful, first off. I think he's probably one of—probably the second best for sure right now, and that's already gonna give him a better shot. And, I mean, at the start of the year, he was doing a lot of strange builds and kind of all-iny, gambly stuff. Lately he has been playing pretty normal, I feel like. I would just say he's a bit better, especially in ZvZ. He has some weaker match-ups, but his ZvZ is very strong. And, ionno, he gets me off guard sometimes, and I make some mistakes as well. But, I don't think there's anything too specific.
You always give a lot of other players credit for their skill, like Neeb, HeRoMarinE or ShoWTimE. But once you get into a tournament match against them, it often looks like a stomp. Is there something that changes in a tournament match, that maybe they're afraid of you, something that causes them to not play as well?
Well, I'm sure if they're too scared of me honestly, but... I do feel like a lot people tend to play a bit worse in tournaments. Well, not worse, but they make more weird mistakes. And I feel like, that's why I feel like mistake-reliant styles are way better in tournaments than they are in practice. I don't think they're scared, it's just that tournament moments are always a bit different. I think I also make more mistakes in tournaments. And everyone does that, but I still manage to bring pretty close to my [normal] game.
You played a ton of international tournaments in 2018 and 2019. From your experience, which year do you think the Korean scene was stronger?
I dont think there's too much of a change. I think people tend to say that Koreans are weaker right now after the GSL vs. The World result, but I think that was partly a bit of luck. I think we got a lot of good match-ups, and that way we got pretty far with a lot of foreign palyers. But I would say the Korean scene is around the same as last year. I don't think it really changed too much in my honest opinion.
How about the foreign scene? Is it stronger comapred to 2018? Do you think they could surprise the same way like GSL vs. The World at BlizzCon?
Obviously Reynor wasn't in last year, and he's gonna be there this year, I think he can do good. Sadly for him, he's been doing pretty bad in tournaments where Koreans are actually in. But I think he has the skill, absolutely, to win [against] them, so he's probably the biggest one to look at. But obviously Special can do very well as well, he got to the playoff bracket already last time. I think Reynor, SpeCial, can do really well. SpeCial is good in preparation tournaments, like he already showed at GSL vs. The World, where he took down Reynor pretty convincingly, which he normally doesn't do in WCS events. And obviously, Elazer has a shot... I think everyone has a shot, but those are probably the biggest ones.
So you think you have your usual 50-50 chance of winning BlizzCon again?
Yeah, sure... 50-50. It's win or lose. It's very simple.
You sure you don't want to make it 60-40? You've been winning more than 50%...
Well... it's very scary to raise it, it seems. Koreans have their own stuff, and when they get preparation time, like out in the groups already, it's pretty scary. But obviously, I think I would have a decently good chance to win.
What do you think about ppl saying late-game ZvT is OP? You see guys like TY saying he tried everything against late-game Serral and it didn't work, so there's no chance.
Well, I think...
I think ZvT and ZvP late game, I would say if Zerg plays perfect, then Zerg should always win late-game pretty much. But with like the EMP buff and that kind of stuff, it's very easy to get caught off guard with your infestors, and the moment that happens you kind of auto-lose the game. Since you need to fungals to beat ghosts, and you kind of just need a couple of infestors, at least. I don't know, I don't think it's TOO bad, especially with the infestor nerf right now—I don't think we can rely on mass-infestors anymore in ZvP.
But I would say, if Zerg plays perfect, Zerg late game is stronger than Terran late-game for sure. And with ZvP I can't tell exactly because I haven't played enough, but it feels... it's very hard to say. I don't know, ZvP I can't say too much about because I haven't played with the infestor nerf all too much, I played like five late-game games.
Any final comments or shoutouts?
Just the normal thanks for your support, shoutouts to everyone for helping. All the fans, obviously all the practice partners as well. Not gonna name any, there's too many of them. Yeah, thanks to everyone who practiced and helped me prepare for this, and all the fans supporting me, and my team ENCE.
And that's how we know success has changed Serral: he refuses to name his practice partners when he would have gone through all of them one by one last year.
[The interviewer fled before before Serral could offer a retort.]
You can follow Serral and ENCE on Twitter at @ENCE_Serral and @ENCE.
Does he mean that even the Terran player play perfect, the Zerg still should always win a late ZvT if the Zerg also play perfect. That does not sound good in theory. However, in a real game, players from both side will make mistakes eventually some time. I would like to know how is the fault-tolerance of any race. If one player makes one small mistake, does it cost the whole game, a single fight, or easy to recover?
On September 10 2019 11:10 BlackPride wrote: buzzfeed title to an actually great interview
is it clickbait if it's actually exactly what it says in the headline and not misleading ?
Yes, clickbait is about getting attention and getting people to click the link. In this case, I would say that the title is good clickbait as it is accurate. Bad clickbait is fabricated or misleading.
You could have also called the article "An interview with WCS Champion Serral" which would have been just as accurate but as we know, far less intriguing.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that just because Zerg late game is superior to Terran does not mean that the match up is wildly imbalanced. It's extremely rare for a match up to be perfectly equal at all stages of the game for all match ups. A tournament or two with the EMP buffs and the Infested Terran nerfs should tell us if it's sufficient.
On this note, Broodlord/Infestor is still incredibly strong, it looks more or less invincible when played right, and I play Zerg. I wouldn't mind if they made Broodlords move faster in exchange for even maybe a -1 on attack range, that way 10 + Brood lords can't just shell an army creating instant broodling armies with impunity.
On September 10 2019 11:34 Beelzebub1 wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that just because Zerg late game is superior to Terran does not mean that the match up is wildly imbalanced. It's extremely rare for a match up to be perfectly equal at all stages of the game for all match ups. A tournament or two with the EMP buffs and the Infested Terran nerfs should tell us if it's sufficient.
On this note, Broodlord/Infestor is still incredibly strong, it looks more or less invincible when played right, and I play Zerg. I wouldn't mind if they made Broodlords move faster in exchange for even maybe a -1 on attack range, that way 10 + Brood lords can't just shell an army creating instant broodling armies with impunity.
Not wildly imbalanced, but clearly zerg is strongest because they just need to make it to the late game without falling too far behind and then they have the advantage. Even when they fall far behind but survive to the late game they can be really hard to finish off and make a comeback and win.
Hooray for Wax! One thing that interests me is that Serral thinks the skill difference between foreigners and Koreans has remained about the same. I'd be interested to hear his thoughts regarding how he keeps his skill level so high despite primarily practicing against opponents that are (for the most part) weaker than their Korean counterparts.
Wow, actually a great interview. Serral is actually still surprisingly humble despite his incredible achievements giving great shoutouts to other great players. Nice to see his honest opinions on balance as well.
What Serral really meant is "If I'm the one playing then zerg should always win late game", because as far as I'm concerned, Serral is the closest thing we've seen from perfect play in 9 years of SC2.
The last patch with the stim and EMP buff really helped with late game TvP. To me the matchup still seems slightly protoss favored, but it doesn't seem unwinnable like it was for several months.
TvZ is really concerning though. And I think broodlords are a much bigger problem than the infestor. We've seen zergs getting up to ridiculous numbers of broodlords, eg Solar vs Maru game 1, I think Solar went up to 29 broodlords. At this point Zerg don't even need infestors anymore. Thors get one shotted by 50 broodlings and can never target the broodlords with their effective 13 range. Liberators can't kill the broodlings anymore. Ghosts... well why would make ghosts if Zerg has 0 infestor? Snipe won't work as even if they don't instantly die to broodlings, any damage cancel the spell anyway.
So what is terran supposed to build at that point? Vikings are dead supply at this point. BC's I guess? But they're so supply heavy that a few neural parasites will render them useless as well, and even a low number of corruptors will dumpster them. I hope Blizzard will come up with meaningful design changes for the post-Blizzcon patch.
I remember TL interviewed SC2 lead designer last year,and the designer said
Just throughout the history of StarCraft, Terran has been seen as disfavored [in the late-game] in some matchups. So we’re trying to make it, maybe not 100% balanced or 50/50 balanced, but make it so that all races feel like they have a decent chance in the late-game depending on how they play. Our goal isn’t to ensure that each of the race’s final compositions can butt heads into each other and win 50% of the time.
On September 10 2019 11:22 pzlama333 wrote: Does he mean that even the Terran player play perfect, the Zerg still should always win a late ZvT if the Zerg also play perfect. That does not sound good in theory. However, in a real game, players from both side will make mistakes eventually some time. I would like to know how is the fault-tolerance of any race. If one player makes one small mistake, does it cost the whole game, a single fight, or easy to recover?
I think he was mostly talking about Infestor vs EMP. Basically, if you babysit your Infestors perfectly, Terran should never get an EMP off on them. And then, they can never take a good fight because neural against BC/Thor, Fungal against bio.
Obviously, it's incredibly hard to never get hit by an EMP. I feel its a bit like saying "if you have infinite apm and camera angle like the first alpahstar, blink stalkers are unbeatable". It's true, but a very theoretical argument. The whole goal of modern, high level SC2 mid- to late-game is spreading your opponents attention thin so that he makes mistakes.
Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall - Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp. He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch.
On September 10 2019 12:33 fastr wrote: What Serral really meant is "If I'm the one playing then zerg should always win late game", because as far as I'm concerned, Serral is the closest thing we've seen from perfect play in 9 years of SC2.
The last patch with the stim and EMP buff really helped with late game TvP. To me the matchup still seems slightly protoss favored, but it doesn't seem unwinnable like it was for several months.
TvZ is really concerning though. And I think broodlords are a much bigger problem than the infestor. We've seen zergs getting up to ridiculous numbers of broodlords, eg Solar vs Maru game 1, I think Solar went up to 29 broodlords. At this point Zerg don't even need infestors anymore. Thors get one shotted by 50 broodlings and can never target the broodlords with their effective 13 range. Liberators can't kill the broodlings anymore. Ghosts... well why would make ghosts if Zerg has 0 infestor? Snipe won't work as even if they don't instantly die to broodlings, any damage cancel the spell anyway.
So what is terran supposed to build at that point? Vikings are dead supply at this point. BC's I guess? But they're so supply heavy that a few neural parasites will render them useless as well, and even a low number of corruptors will dumpster them. I hope Blizzard will come up with meaningful design changes for the post-Blizzcon patch.
From what I've seen on the new patch:
If mech transitioning super late game:
Mass Thor/Ghost still smashes an only Broodlord army - no matter how many you have. They can build enough BL to beat only Thor - but it is like you said - close to 30 that you need.
You can't single target the Thor and still interrupt all the snipes - so you need infestors to fungal / IT and neural. Thor outrange Broods and do a ton of dmg with single shot if upgrades are good. Only time it makes sense to go pure BL is if they can actually get 30+ and you are only building Thor. If you have ghost/thor it should just get smashed.
Never build Vikings lmao - at least from what I can tell they are just as trash vs late game Z as they always have been. You saw in HeroMarine/Serral multiple times gabe lose 8-10 vikings to a couple fungals and a para bomb.
If transitioning super late game from the mech BC style: It looks like BC / Liberator / Ghost can be very strong. We actually saw Maru at WCG prior to this patch do it without the ghosts - but it seems too good to not have now with the upgrade - if you can sneak a few ghosts on a flank cloaked you can hit like 10 infestors and they are in big trouble. Libs to zone out the infestors / Ghosts for emp on infestors / snipes on broods/corrupt Even if they have like 25 corrupters if you have 12 BCs and you land emps on the infestors you can yamato half of them and in a real good spot. The ITerrans tickle the BCs now but you can still lose your whole fleet if you get fungaled/neuraled and ported into spore/corrupterville.
Not saying either of these styles are OP just saying that it looks to me like Terran finally has at least some counterplay to BL/Infestor - which I think we will see exploited to a much higher degree by the S class Terrans.
On September 10 2019 11:22 pzlama333 wrote: Does he mean that even the Terran player play perfect, the Zerg still should always win a late ZvT if the Zerg also play perfect. That does not sound good in theory. However, in a real game, players from both side will make mistakes eventually some time. I would like to know how is the fault-tolerance of any race. If one player makes one small mistake, does it cost the whole game, a single fight, or easy to recover?
I think he was mostly talking about Infestor vs EMP. Basically, if you babysit your Infestors perfectly, Terran should never get an EMP off on them. And then, they can never take a good fight because neural against BC/Thor, Fungal against bio.
Obviously, it's incredibly hard to never get hit by an EMP. I feel its a bit like saying "if you have infinite apm and camera angle like the first alpahstar, blink stalkers are unbeatable". It's true, but a very theoretical argument. The whole goal of modern, high level SC2 mid- to late-game is spreading your opponents attention thin so that he makes mistakes.
Yeah - I think if ghosts couldn't cloak it would a different conversation. We see in almost every pro game that goes super late if the Terran builds ghosts he manages to get nuke after nuke off on multiple bases - sure most of them get cleaned up before landing - but if you can get nukes off over and over - you can catch a zerg offguard with a cloak ghost or 2 lurking on a high-ground waiting for infestors running to stop BC base sniping (Soul v Reynor) - it seems like viable counter-play to me.
On September 10 2019 14:15 DomeGetta wrote: Only time it makes sense to go pure BL is if they can actually get 30+ and you are only building Thor. If you have ghost/thor it should just get smashed.
You're probably right, but I made the mistake to assume that a Zerg might be compelled to not make infestors in certain situations. Thinking about it now, I don't think there's ever a reason for a Zerg to not make infestors in ZvT lategame, so let's just forget what I said earlier.
You can't single target the Thor and still interrupt all the snipes - so you need infestors to fungal / IT and neural.
You're right again, but let's just assume that the Zerg has infestors and both players are playing as close to perfect (Maru vs Serral). To Serral's point, assuming the Zerg doesn't screw up, I don't think there's any way for the ghosts to snipe anything as fungal will interrupt it and the ghosts will be dead the next second. Now EMP could technically work. A cloaked ghost avoiding overseers, or some suicidal ghosts could get some EMPs off before dying. Now 0 energy infestor are worthless, but the Zerg didn't lose any actual units. A thor / libs / ghost comp still doesn't trade that well against 20+ broodlord even with depleted infestors. My point is, as good as ghosts are in TvP, I'm not sure they're the answer to broodlord / infestor death-ball.
If transitioning super late game from the mech BC style: It looks like BC / Liberator / Ghost can be very strong.
I share your sentiment that BCs are probably the best unit Terran players need to explore in late-game TvZ. If a Zerg goes to 20+ broodlords, replacing thors with BC's sounds like a logical decision, as broodlords obviously have no anti-air. Now the 2 problems I see with that BC / liberator / ghost composition are: 1. Going from a thor based army to a BC based army sounds like a nightmare transition-wise. Like you said, you need the libs to zone out the infestors, so you'll need at least 5 starports. And BCs build time is so slow that Terran will be very vulnerable during the transition. 2. It also sounds like a nightmare to control. You need to individually siege the liberators and constantly leap-from them, and then you got the BC's and ghost that both need single fire spell to do meaningful damage (rapid fire can help but only so much), and you also need to manage the EMPs and ideally teleport the BC's to save them. So yeah, maybe Maru or TY can manage that, but who else? I'm also curious to see them try at some point.
Not saying either of these styles are OP just saying that it looks to me like Terran finally has at least some counterplay to BL/Infestor - which I think we will see exploited to a much higher degree by the S class Terrans.
For sure Terran have more counterplay now than in 2011 BL/Infestor era, but Blizzard must be proactive and if the trend continues they will have to take actions, like they finally did with TvP.
On September 10 2019 13:58 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall - Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp. He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch.
I mean, we do have one single sample. Maru vs Solar Game 1 from their first match in GSL (not the rematch in the decider), where BL/Infestor decisively beat mass Thor/Liberator/Ghost. Of course, it was only one game, but feel free to rewatch it and point out what Maru should have done differently. Once there's enough BLs to oneshot Thors (and remember they outrange Thors when you target), Terran is basically shit out of luck.
As Tasteless put it, "This was an illuminating game on the state of TvZ, Artosis. That's all I'm going to say about that."
I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
One of the best and most recent examples:
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
It's quite literally physically impossible to micro bio and/or spellcasters in two places at the same time. Because you need to be actively ordering specific units to move/shoot/cast spells and I've yet to see even the best pros manage that while continuously switching screens back and forth.
Lings/banes/roaches can all be shift-clicked. Bio can't. The closest I've seen would probably be pros send the single-flanking-spellcaster to try for the money fungal/storm/EMP. No more than one though, because they usually die.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
It's quite literally physically impossible to micro bio and/or spellcasters in two places at the same time. Because you need to be actively ordering specific units to move/shoot/cast spells and I've yet to see even the best pros manage that while continuously switching screens back and forth.
Lings/banes/roaches can all be shift-clicked. Bio can't. The closest I've seen would probably be pros send the single-flanking-spellcaster to try for the money fungal/storm/EMP. No more than one though, because they usually die.
Even Maru in his top play(who has the best unit control by far) wasn't doing it. I don't think the solution is "play godmode" while the other races don't have to
On September 10 2019 13:58 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall - Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp. He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch.
I mean, we do have one single sample. Maru vs Solar Game 1 from their first match in GSL (not the rematch in the decider), where BL/Infestor decisively beat mass Thor/Liberator/Ghost. Of course, it was only one game, but feel free to rewatch it and point out what Maru should have done differently. Once there's enough BLs to oneshot Thors (and remember they outrange Thors when you target), Terran is basically shit out of luck.
As Tasteless put it, "This was an illuminating game on the state of TvZ, Artosis. That's all I'm going to say about that."
That game was ridiculously close - he was literally just brute forcing the BL/Infestor all game and fighting for even bases - definitely could have went either way. It came down to the last fight that went horribly - all the ghosts died without landing a single emp or snipe so the infestors threw down 100 ITerrans to tank for the BL and the Thor were caught out. Solar had 12 drones and 1 remax in the bank - so you could argue that Maru really didn't need to be where he was with his units. But I think that game is a perfect example of what we are talking about - he didn't manage to land many emps at all - let his opponent out-mine him (which is definitely harder to prevent on some maps vs others) and took a really bad max fight - so of course he lost. Had a number of things gone different - he could have won. I think the nuke sieging all game vs. some kind of harass like Thor drops or clone/hell runbys late game to harass might work better and be cheaper - but he managed to make it super close - and he's not nearly as experienced playing mech in general - its probably only recently he started playing this style - so I wouldnt expect it be totally clean. I think if going that style there will need to be some kind of harass though - otherwise catching the infestors out is pretty much impossible if they are in 1 place comfortable and surrounded by spores. Kind of the same deal if Solar just tried to brute force into the Thor/Ghost/Lib without killing all the ghosts first - would have been the opposite result - thor lib by itself can't fight 25 broods and infestors so he was kinda screwed once the ghosts died.
Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be...unless you're gonna try to make early-mid-game equal as well, which is impossible. Perfect balance in all stages of the game for all non-mirror MUs is never gonna happen. Trying to attempt the impossible will likely only introduce more problems than solutions.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
It's quite literally physically impossible to micro bio and/or spellcasters in two places at the same time. Because you need to be actively ordering specific units to move/shoot/cast spells and I've yet to see even the best pros manage that while continuously switching screens back and forth.
Lings/banes/roaches can all be shift-clicked. Bio can't. The closest I've seen would probably be pros send the single-flanking-spellcaster to try for the money fungal/storm/EMP. No more than one though, because they usually die.
Watch Soul vs. Reynor from WCS fall qualifiers.
Happens multiple times in multiple games where a couple ghosts catch a ton of infestors - but its always when the infestors are moving back across the map to defend something - which is never gonna happen if you are taking the head butt approach with nukes - but if you are going BC or even some other kind of harass you can force them to move. Agreed about bio micro - but most of these guys aren't going bio anymore - Cyclone/Helion is no more difficult to micro than roach/ling/bane.
On September 10 2019 13:58 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall - Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp. He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch.
I mean, we do have one single sample. Maru vs Solar Game 1 from their first match in GSL (not the rematch in the decider), where BL/Infestor decisively beat mass Thor/Liberator/Ghost. Of course, it was only one game, but feel free to rewatch it and point out what Maru should have done differently. Once there's enough BLs to oneshot Thors (and remember they outrange Thors when you target), Terran is basically shit out of luck.
As Tasteless put it, "This was an illuminating game on the state of TvZ, Artosis. That's all I'm going to say about that."
That game was ridiculously close - he was literally just brute forcing the BL/Infestor all game and fighting for even bases - definitely could have went either way. It came down to the last fight that went horribly - all the ghosts died without landing a single emp or snipe so the infestors threw down 100 ITerrans to tank for the BL and the Thor were caught out. Solar had 12 drones and 1 remax in the bank - so you could argue that Maru really didn't need to be where he was with his units. But I think that game is a perfect example of what we are talking about - he didn't manage to land many emps at all - let his opponent out-mine him (which is definitely harder to prevent on some maps vs others) and took a really bad max fight - so of course he lost. Had a number of things gone different - he could have won. I think the nuke sieging all game vs. some kind of harass like Thor drops or clone/hell runbys late game to harass might work better and be cheaper - but he managed to make it super close - and he's not nearly as experienced playing mech in general - its probably only recently he started playing this style - so I wouldnt expect it be totally clean. I think if going that style there will need to be some kind of harass though - otherwise catching the infestors out is pretty much impossible if they are in 1 place comfortable and surrounded by spores. Kind of the same deal if Solar just tried to brute force into the Thor/Ghost/Lib without killing all the ghosts first - would have been the opposite result - thor lib by itself can't fight 25 broods and infestors so he was kinda screwed once the ghosts died.
It's not only that game though. It's also the fact that Maru decided to throw away all of his practice seeing he couldn't beat an inferior player with it anyways, as he said after the rematch interview.
Thanks for the interview, always nice to read Serral thoughts.
On September 10 2019 13:58 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall - Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp. He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch.
I mean, we do have one single sample. Maru vs Solar Game 1 from their first match in GSL (not the rematch in the decider), where BL/Infestor decisively beat mass Thor/Liberator/Ghost. Of course, it was only one game, but feel free to rewatch it and point out what Maru should have done differently. Once there's enough BLs to oneshot Thors (and remember they outrange Thors when you target), Terran is basically shit out of luck.
As Tasteless put it, "This was an illuminating game on the state of TvZ, Artosis. That's all I'm going to say about that."
That game was ridiculously close - he was literally just brute forcing the BL/Infestor all game and fighting for even bases - definitely could have went either way. It came down to the last fight that went horribly - all the ghosts died without landing a single emp or snipe so the infestors threw down 100 ITerrans to tank for the BL and the Thor were caught out. Solar had 12 drones and 1 remax in the bank - so you could argue that Maru really didn't need to be where he was with his units. But I think that game is a perfect example of what we are talking about - he didn't manage to land many emps at all - let his opponent out-mine him (which is definitely harder to prevent on some maps vs others) and took a really bad max fight - so of course he lost. Had a number of things gone different - he could have won. I think the nuke sieging all game vs. some kind of harass like Thor drops or clone/hell runbys late game to harass might work better and be cheaper - but he managed to make it super close - and he's not nearly as experienced playing mech in general - its probably only recently he started playing this style - so I wouldnt expect it be totally clean. I think if going that style there will need to be some kind of harass though - otherwise catching the infestors out is pretty much impossible if they are in 1 place comfortable and surrounded by spores. Kind of the same deal if Solar just tried to brute force into the Thor/Ghost/Lib without killing all the ghosts first - would have been the opposite result - thor lib by itself can't fight 25 broods and infestors so he was kinda screwed once the ghosts died.
It's not only that game though. It's also the fact that Maru decided to throw away all of his practice seeing he couldn't beat an inferior player with it anyways, as he said after the rematch interview.
Thanks for the interview, always nice to read Serral thoughts.
Cmon bruh lmao - biggest Maru fanboy on TL here - Maru drops his plans like every other series he plays after losing a game - especially vs Zerg and you even see him do it vs Terran with proxy 2 rax. Feeling like your best option to win isn't the one you practiced does not mean it's not viable - it just means you think another option gives you a higher % chance to win.
It feels to me like Thor+Ghost(+Liberator/Tank) can beat Brood Lord+Infestor, unless you get a ridiculous number of Brood lords like 20+ where they start one-shotting Thors. But at that point, wouldn't Vikings become better? You have an opponent that has 80+ supply dedicated to anti-ground, 40+ Vikings would absolutely destroy anything in the air, especially combined with a few Ravens. Their biggest vulnerability is clumping up, then getting fungaled/parasite bombed. That's how Heromarine lost his vikings a few times against Serral. But I didn't see him pre-spread them once. Also, a few ghosts can help prevent the spells that threaten the vikings.
Brood lords are slow, dedicated anti-ground units, while thors are capable of attacking everything pretty well. I don't mind design where masses of flexible units are beaten by masses of dedicated units that soft-counter them. I would like to see it possible to be punished for overcommitting to the slow, dedicated anti-ground units by a Terran with a larger bank tech-switching into mass starport (+ ghosts).
Maybe it's too demanding, but considering we see Zergs having to constantly move their spore crawlers out of nukes, then back into position while re-spreading creep, and considering brood lords are slow enough that you have some time to set up a good engagement, it seems Terran has some APM available to make it happen. I'd love to see it attempted in a professional game once to expose why it wouldn't work, if it doesn't. Hopefully we'll get lucky with Dark vs. TY and see some new lategame in action.
There is not much surprise in Serral acknowledging that lategame ZvT is imbalanced. Many Zerg progamers have been doing so for months, as has the bulk of people in the community in general. But I guess Serral is saying that even after the new patch it hasn't changed all that much, although Zerg now need to be more careful with their Infestors because they can be heavily punished by a single mistake.
On the other hand, reading these mental gymnastics that some people go through in this thread to attempt to make Serral say something he doesn't do at all is... something.
On September 10 2019 17:27 tigon_ridge wrote: Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be...unless you're gonna try to make early-mid-game equal as well, which is impossible. Perfect balance in all stages of the game for all non-mirror MUs is never gonna happen. Trying to attempt the impossible will likely only introduce more problems than solutions.
Sure, but that means we need some maps that allow T and P to play to their strengths, not just giant maps that allow Zerg to get to lategame without much issue.
On September 10 2019 11:22 pzlama333 wrote: Does he mean that even the Terran player play perfect, the Zerg still should always win a late ZvT if the Zerg also play perfect. That does not sound good in theory. However, in a real game, players from both side will make mistakes eventually some time. I would like to know how is the fault-tolerance of any race. If one player makes one small mistake, does it cost the whole game, a single fight, or easy to recover?
Well I disagree to be honest, you can't expect to have every steps of the game to be balanced. I'm not even sure it would make the game more interesting even if it was possible. Problems is that as time goes by, and Zerg learn how to defend all early/mid games agressions, and with the creep mechanics and how good are Zerg to spread it it is now too easy to get there which is the bigger problem.
When Stephano was at his prime and the "only" good foreigner Zerg, it was before the Queen buff. He already figured it out how broken Infestor/BL was and was aiming to this composition, but he was the only foreigner able to get there with a good enough economy as it was very hard to survive early/midgame TvZ at the time. While "necessary" (debatable I know) the Queen buff made it way too easy and hence was the patch-Zerg era and everyone was able to survive until late-game easily.
On September 10 2019 17:27 tigon_ridge wrote: Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be.
how about no?
all races should have equal chances at all points in the game ideally
pretty much impossible. you can't have asymmetric race matchups without power spikes existing. balance means keeping any one power spike from being so oppressive (or necessary) that all strategies converge solely on attaining it (which BL/infestor was arguably pretty close to prepatch).
the statement that "zerg deserves an advantage lategame" is pretty arguable/controversial, but i see the idea behind it: zerg's advantages will always come from overdroning and larger economy, T and P will always rely on timings and harass to reduce droning, therefore a zerg that survives should theoretically become stronger. it's debatable and not an exact science but it's not totally illogical
but there are a lot of factors and a lot of moving pieces to balance. part of the problem is that the pro meta is very single-minded in the players' dedication to the strongest winning strategies, so there's rarely a picture of the strength of "alternative" strategies. a lot of viewers simply assume all alternative strategies are horrific and bronzey, but that's not the case - sometimes alternatives are terrible, but sometimes they're just marginally less efficient. so when you soften BL/infestor part of the question becomes "where does the matchup end up if zergs don't want to be in the lategame anymore?" how strong is zerg if terran is trying to get to mass BC, mass thor, etc, and zerg is doing nothing but timings?
i'm not supporting any race here, and my instinct is that BL/infestor was or is slightly too strong, but singular nerfs don't always solve problems. sometimes solving one balance issue creates two new ones, which is why players often end up frustrated with inaction. i don't care for BW and i'm not one to normally invoke their community, but BW players by virtue of their older and less dynamic game are much more comfortable with the idea of not receiving constant balance tweaks, and sometimes i wish we had that in SC2 instead of a bunch of screaming forever diamonds who think their ladder losses have something to do with pro games
On September 10 2019 17:27 tigon_ridge wrote: Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be.
how about no?
all races should have equal chances at all points in the game ideally
pretty much impossible. you can't have asymmetric race matchups without power spikes existing. balance means keeping any one power spike from being so oppressive (or necessary) that all strategies converge solely on attaining it (which BL/infestor was arguably pretty close to prepatch).
the statement that "zerg deserves an advantage lategame" is pretty arguable/controversial, but i see the idea behind it: zerg's advantages will always come from overdroning and larger economy, T and P will always rely on timings and harass to reduce droning, therefore a zerg that survives should theoretically become stronger. it's debatable and not an exact science but it's not totally illogical
but there are a lot of factors and a lot of moving pieces to balance. part of the problem is that the pro meta is very single-minded in the players' dedication to the strongest winning strategies, so there's rarely a picture of the strength of "alternative" strategies. a lot of viewers simply assume all alternative strategies are horrific and bronzey, but that's not the case - sometimes alternatives are terrible, but sometimes they're just marginally less efficient. so when you soften BL/infestor part of the question becomes "where does the matchup end up if zergs don't want to be in the lategame anymore?" how strong is zerg if terran is trying to get to mass BC, mass thor, etc, and zerg is doing nothing but timings?
i'm not supporting any race here, and my instinct is that BL/infestor was or is slightly too strong, but singular nerfs don't always solve problems. sometimes solving one balance issue creates two new ones, which is why players often end up frustrated with inaction. i don't care for BW and i'm not one to normally invoke their community, but BW players by virtue of their older and less dynamic game are much more comfortable with the idea of not receiving constant balance tweaks, and sometimes i wish we had that in SC2 instead of a bunch of screaming forever diamonds who think their ladder losses have something to do with pro games
i didnt say it was possible. i said it was ideal
the game can be design to be as close to ideal as possible, rather than purposely designed in a way that races have significant advantages at certain stages
On September 10 2019 17:27 tigon_ridge wrote: Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be.
all races should have equal chances at all points in the game ideally
I don't mind that that's your personal preference, but are you suggesting that zerg doesn't have an early-mid game disadvantage? I believe the consensus is that it does. If you make lategame perfectly balanced without balancing the early and midgame, then that means zerg would be become the disadvantaged race.
On September 10 2019 11:22 pzlama333 wrote: Does he mean that even the Terran player play perfect, the Zerg still should always win a late ZvT if the Zerg also play perfect. That does not sound good in theory. However, in a real game, players from both side will make mistakes eventually some time. I would like to know how is the fault-tolerance of any race. If one player makes one small mistake, does it cost the whole game, a single fight, or easy to recover?
I'm not sure ... but a common say in Wings of Liberty was that "if the terran plays perfect the terran will/should always win". (No idea who coined it or where it came from but I feel it popped up fairly often.) It could of course be totally unrelated ...
I fully understand that Serral does not want to list his practice partners. They must be enough and eventually you can forget someone who may feel upset about not being mentioned. It's hard not to leave someone and then it tastes really bad. Serral is getting smarter.
BL should be reworked. It's incredibly coin flippy unit. It can destroy your opponent but also get easily caught of position cos it's the slowest in the game, it can also get blindsided since it is only top tier unit w/o AA (unlike Carrier, Tempest and BC). I don't really find it fun to play with or against. It sucks, that sometimes I need to make it, because breaking entrenched positions is super hard (Infestor + Viper can do it, but that is uncontrollable below Master).
On September 10 2019 17:27 tigon_ridge wrote: Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be.
all races should have equal chances at all points in the game ideally
I don't mind that that's your personal preference, but are you suggesting that zerg doesn't have an early-mid game disadvantage? I believe the consensus is that it does. If you make lategame perfectly balanced without balancing the early and midgame, then that means zerg would be become the disadvantaged race.
I don't really think Z really has an early-mid game disadvantage. Sure that might've been the case in earlier versions of SC2 but right now with how queens are, their defense is super solid.
Also what I think most people are missing here is the main reason Z is so strong late game imo is not BL/Infestor but the fact that they can bank multiple remaxes in larva. BL/Infestor is very strong but it can be traded vs. Being able to trade out max armies and remax instantly on BL/Infestor again or some other tech makes it super tough to face. Looks like Dark TY was very competitive going to have a look.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
On September 10 2019 23:43 DomeGetta wrote: Also what I think most people are missing here is the main reason Z is so strong late game imo is not BL/Infestor but the fact that they can bank multiple remaxes in larva. BL/Infestor is very strong but it can be traded vs. Being able to trade out max armies and remax instantly on BL/Infestor again or some other tech makes it super tough to face. Looks like Dark TY was very competitive going to have a look.
Remaxing quickly isn't too relevant in the lategame when you need to morph corruptors first before morphing into BL, and infestors require a good amount of time to accumulate energy, unless you're talking about maxing out with purely tier 1-2 units, which no pro does lategame.
On September 10 2019 17:27 tigon_ridge wrote: Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be.
all races should have equal chances at all points in the game ideally
I don't mind that that's your personal preference, but are you suggesting that zerg doesn't have an early-mid game disadvantage? I believe the consensus is that it does. If you make lategame perfectly balanced without balancing the early and midgame, then that means zerg would be become the disadvantaged race.
I agree that Zerg has a weak early and mid game. Been saying that for months ever since creep and queen nerf. Although that disadvantage might be gone in ZvP thanks to prism warp and overlord speed buff. All I’m saying is what the goal should be.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
Lol seriously?
You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses
Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing?
Oh you mean the cancer Mass raven play in HOTS and LOTV?
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
Lol seriously?
You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses
Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing?
Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before?
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
Lol seriously?
You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses
Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing?
Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before?
Regardless, I think it's tough to ask ppl for 'style' changes that are predicated on immense physical ability. I don't know if Serral has so much of a late game 'style' as he is just the most mechanically dominant player.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
Lol seriously?
You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses
Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing?
Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before?
I'm a low master random for all 3 races so I know to some degree how each race works.
In my own experience Terran is the easiest to attack from 3 angles. Whereas breaking a Terran siege location with other 3 races from 3 different location is a nightmare.
Maybe you should actually play the game at a higher level first and see preceptive from all 3 races rather than theory crafting.
No disrespect, but most of the whiners on TL in general are around gold level and usually have no idea what they are talking about
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
Lol seriously?
You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses
Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing?
Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before?
I'm a low master random for all 3 races so I know to some degree how each race works.
In my own experience Terran is the easiest to attack from 3 angles. Whereas breaking a Terran siege location with other 3 races from 3 different location is a nightmare.
Maybe you should actually play the game at a higher level first and see preceptive from all 3 races rather than theory crafting.
No disrespect, but most of the whiners on TL in general are around gold level and usually have no idea what they are talking about
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
Lol seriously?
You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses
Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing?
Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before?
I'm a low master random for all 3 races so I know to some degree how each race works.
In my own experience Terran is the easiest to attack from 3 angles. Whereas breaking a Terran siege location with other 3 races from 3 different location is a nightmare.
Maybe you should actually play the game at a higher level first and see preceptive from all 3 races rather than theory crafting.
No disrespect, but most of the whiners on TL in general are around gold level and usually have no idea what they are talking about
Well, i play the game at a higher level :D
Don't you love when people start arguing with their league? Especially when they hit noobs like you, love it Next time he starts explaining to Maru how to play and how easy it is
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
Lol seriously?
You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses
Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing?
Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before?
I'm a low master random for all 3 races so I know to some degree how each race works.
In my own experience Terran is the easiest to attack from 3 angles. Whereas breaking a Terran siege location with other 3 races from 3 different location is a nightmare.
Maybe you should actually play the game at a higher level first and see preceptive from all 3 races rather than theory crafting.
No disrespect, but most of the whiners on TL in general are around gold level and usually have no idea what they are talking about
Well, i play the game at a higher level :D
Don't you love when people start arguing with their league? Especially when they hit noobs like you, love it Next time he starts explaining to Maru how to play and how easy it is
Similar to how you explain how hard Maru/Terrans in general has to play against Toss/Zergs. That they have to play 2-3 times better to wins games lol. Not sure why you are so sensitive and butthurt over a ghost comment
Let me know when Terran learns how to flank with ghost (which you still can't dispute)
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi.
It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins.
At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it )
He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game)
On September 10 2019 23:43 DomeGetta wrote: Also what I think most people are missing here is the main reason Z is so strong late game imo is not BL/Infestor but the fact that they can bank multiple remaxes in larva. BL/Infestor is very strong but it can be traded vs. Being able to trade out max armies and remax instantly on BL/Infestor again or some other tech makes it super tough to face. Looks like Dark TY was very competitive going to have a look.
I think the reason why Zerg is strongest in late game is mostly due to creep mechanics, which gives an enormous map control in late game, and allow to have mobile static defence (yeah that's sound weird, yet, it's true), blocking attack path and thus removing the big weakness of Infestor BroodLord which is mobility.
I mean imagine a dumb map which would prevent creep to be put after a certain point. Certainly not a good solution, but in such a map would Infestor/BL really that much scary to you?
for zerg it's the amount of minerals/gas that is accruing paired with the minimal effort of defending outward expansions that makes playing mid-to-late game more comfortable. i mean that if you can afford to plant 5 spines and a couple spores on every important expansion, it automatically becomes much more defendable against the type of units that would usually siege it in ZvT or ZvP--without the cost of supply. on the flipside, zerg can play misdirection and simply run +2 speedbanes in regardless of what is there. the cost of that tactic is offset by the relatively higher amount of resources they are gaining. it's the age-old playstyle of map control and denying the newest mining base from your opponent. they eventually lose the ability to play on even footing.
and then it's the amount of damage that upgraded cyclones can deal with lockon (to buildings) that lets that playstyle punish and make it more difficult for zerg to play comfortably.
if then, terran moves across the map to trade thors, vikings, cyclones, hellbats with broodlords, infestors, zerglings, ravagers.. the opportunity to punish outside bases is higher in adrenalings and banelings because they actually threaten bases, while cyclones are slower (hellions do not threaten bases) and are expensive to throw against bases. when the dust settles, both players re-max and zerg has an advantage if they trade relatively evenly. in terms of composition, in terms of bases mining during the whole ordeal, in terms of the speed of threat to freshly mining bases.
there is a lot of consideration for mech vs bio play against zerg for certain maps. i won't pretend to know the nuances. i will just instead trust that the pros understand and play their way for extremely good reasons.
mixing ghosts, honestly, has never been a good situation for terran, except in the situation of PvT. but i'll concede it would be cool to see stuff like medivac-drop with ghost EMP bombs. again, an extremely expensive and taxing type of solution. there was a time when mass-ghosts were the solution to anything zerg, but those times are long gone.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi.
It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins.
At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it )
He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game)
oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao
Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL
Innovation and Maru are very different players imo.
Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described
Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics.
Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving.
We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ
Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around.
Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam.
Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi.
It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins.
At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it )
He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game)
oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao
Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL
Innovation and Maru are very different players imo.
Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described
Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics.
Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving.
We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ
Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around.
Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam.
Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg
Alright i'll bite.
Tell me an idea for something that will make Terran do well again. I'm sure that with your imagination Terran will destroy :D
So Serral is honest, at least. Z lategame needs to be adjusted. Since Blizzard made Immortal All Ins harder, this was the wrong direction - it makes the only chance for P harder vs Z. Pretty mental....
As a Protoss it feels like there is just a very few unit ciombos that work frequently, while especially Z has a so big variatey in its game, its just sick. This males P being quite boring at times, if you dont add some cheese or 2 base all ins to your game. going to mid/lategame is always quite similar if you dont go for sth crazy
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi.
It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins.
At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it )
He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game)
oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao
Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL
Innovation and Maru are very different players imo.
Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described
Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics.
Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving.
We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ
Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around.
Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam.
Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg
Alright i'll bite.
Tell me an idea for something that will make Terran do well again. I'm sure that with your imagination Terran will destroy :D
Terran do well again?
They won 3/8 non-WCS circuit premier tournaments this year and just received huge buff
On September 11 2019 01:31 rasi86 wrote: So Serral is honest, at least. Z lategame needs to be adjusted. Since Blizzard made Immortal All Ins harder, this was the wrong direction - it makes the only chance for P harder vs Z. Pretty mental....
As a Protoss it feels like there is just a very few unit ciombos that work frequently, while especially Z has a so big variatey in its game, its just sick. This males P being quite boring at times, if you dont add some cheese or 2 base all ins to your game. going to mid/lategame is always quite similar if you dont go for sth crazy
He only said that it requires perfect play for zerg to have 100% lategame win. No one has perfect play, Serral included. The advantage Z had lategame vs T before has been significantly diminished with these latest patches. Now, we just need to see more games to fully appreciate how it plays out, instead of instantly whining.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi.
It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins.
At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it )
He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game)
oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao
Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL
Innovation and Maru are very different players imo.
Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described
Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics.
Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving.
We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ
Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around.
Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam.
Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg
Alright i'll bite.
Tell me an idea for something that will make Terran do well again. I'm sure that with your imagination Terran will destroy :D
Terran do well again?
They won 3/8 non-WCS circuit premier tournaments this year and just received huge buff
Alright let's rephrase if you really want me to. What do you suggest Terrans to innovate on? I'm sure that you as a non-terran have good ideas for the brainless terrans who just bash mechanics and hope to win with those))
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi.
It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins.
At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it )
He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game)
oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao
Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL
Innovation and Maru are very different players imo.
Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described
Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics.
Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving.
We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ
Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around.
Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam.
Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg
Alright i'll bite.
Tell me an idea for something that will make Terran do well again. I'm sure that with your imagination Terran will destroy :D
Terran do well again?
They won 3/8 non-WCS circuit premier tournaments this year and just received huge buff
Alright let's rephrase if you really want me to. What do you suggest Terrans to innovate on? I'm sure that you as a non-terran have good ideas for the brainless terrans who just bash mechanics and hope to win with those))
I play Terran. No need to get defensive.
I don’t play sc2 at the M1 level or higher so I leave the innovation to the greatest minds in the game.
All I’m doing is describing what I see from the top players of each race
A big issue with the balance is simply how MUCH easier zerg is to play than terran. Unless it changed a lot if LotV, I played them both at a near GM level and mechanically, zerg is leagues easier than terran. The only real challenge as a zerg player was to scout well, because of the drone/army situation with larvas. Didn t play much protoss so i wont comment on them.
Im sure at the highest level the giant gap in skills and mechanics required also plays a huge role.
If zerg was much harder to play, they would be way less strong.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
Lol seriously?
You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses
Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing?
Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before?
Regardless, I think it's tough to ask ppl for 'style' changes that are predicated on immense physical ability. I don't know if Serral has so much of a late game 'style' as he is just the most mechanically dominant player.
It is a style allright, the same one as RoRo and Sniper but its still a style.
On September 11 2019 02:09 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: A big issue with the balance is simply how MUCH easier zerg is to play than terran. Unless it changed a lot if LotV, I played them both at a near GM level and mechanically, zerg is leagues easier than terran. The only real challenge as a zerg player was to scout well, because of the drone/army situation with larvas. Didn t play much protoss so i wont comment on them.
Im sure at the highest level the giant gap in skills and mechanics required also plays a huge role.
If zerg was much harder to play, they would be way less strong.
Zerg being easier to play was maybe(maybe!) a thing in 2012; LoTV is another thing entirely.
The only real problem I see with TvZ is that if Blizzard buffed Thors with the intention of making them outrange Broodlords, they should be doing that; at the moment, mass Thors doesn't seem to be a suitable answer. I also think ghosts are used/mixed in too few at the moment.
Serral: "others just play worse at tournaments, they do more mistakes"
meanwhile, he is 7.4k mmr and has to have a 9-1 ratio vs those ppl to keep his mmr LUL No serral, ur just better, online or offline.
There is 2 big advantages zerg has: 1) lategame. Z simply beats protoss lategame, no matter what army comp P has. it might be very close vs a real big air army + disruptor + storm, but it's close to impossible to ever rebuild the perfect army for P - Zerg has no trouble doning so. Terran might even outedge Zerg with their perfect army, say Raven / New ghost / mass scan / Thor / BC / range libs - but its close to impossible to control perfectly - and even harder to rebuild than the ultimate P army.
2) consistancy. Zerg is a race that has to defend. it can be hard at times, but its possible to consistnatly beat everything that is thrown at them. Terran has a much harder time doing so - they just feel more vulnerable to stupid builds; probably less so then they used to, but its still more common to see top terrans die to allins than top zergs. Protoss might not be as vulnerable to allins, but to play protoss well, you have to be aggressive - and that is way less reliable than being able to defend all game and expand. Protoss used to have that luxery when their air army was overpowered, but even then they felt much less stable than zerg does atm.
I'm very positive that the domination Serral shows is close to impossible with terran, and absolutely impossible with protoss - no matter how much better you are. Don't get me wrong, Serral is the best - by far. but him not losing AT ALL is something that wouldn't be the case for someone that is by far the best and played T or P.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi.
It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins.
At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it )
He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game)
oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao
Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL
Innovation and Maru are very different players imo.
Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described
Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics.
Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving.
We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ
Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around.
Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam.
Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg
Another great post showing how zerg/protoss players adapt/evolve. Like you mentioned TY still plays the same way, harass spam.
Everytime when Zerg or Protoss think of a new strategy, the balance whines comes out in full force and gets an instant nerf. For example, the Adept phenoix timing that was used against Terran. Terran kept dying because they refuse to adapt. Eevery game they use the same double medivac drop against a PHENOIX opener and expect to do damage. Toss defects the drops, counters and win.
Protoss/Zerg can pretty much do everything that Terran can do mechanically. Not really a big separations between all the top Korean pros. Dark/Stats/Maru/Innovation.
I don't understand why so many haters trying to discredit Serral by complaining about his race. Do you see us complaining about Terran's dominance in GSL for years?
As of right now , Serral is clearly the best people in the world, as a fan people should just enjoy it while it last.
On September 11 2019 03:29 KalWarkov wrote: Serral: "others just play worse at tournaments, they do more mistakes"
meanwhile, he is 7.4k mmr and has to have a 9-1 ratio vs those ppl to keep his mmr LUL No serral, ur just better, online or offline
How many tournaments this obvious fact needs to be repeated? Everyone can see he is the best player, with best meta, with best, and most honest approach to the game, most cool Tournament player ever, best strats (he know them all), most modest person, most intense drive for a win, the greatest aura over the sphere of space, the most resources to spread over the creep, more meaningful contacts than anyone else...
'European Elitism' born with The God-King, and The Top Elite himself is everyway anti-thesis of anykind elitism.
SC2 will do well when Serral's larva get their first step on a creep.
Blizzard should listen what Serral says.
My laptop will be ruined, about 0.27 litres of beer on the keyboard tonight. They will stuck.
On September 10 2019 23:43 DomeGetta wrote: Also what I think most people are missing here is the main reason Z is so strong late game imo is not BL/Infestor but the fact that they can bank multiple remaxes in larva. BL/Infestor is very strong but it can be traded vs. Being able to trade out max armies and remax instantly on BL/Infestor again or some other tech makes it super tough to face. Looks like Dark TY was very competitive going to have a look.
Remaxing quickly isn't too relevant in the lategame when you need to morph corruptors first before morphing into BL, and infestors require a good amount of time to accumulate energy, unless you're talking about maxing out with purely tier 1-2 units, which no pro does lategame.
Even with the morph time on corrupters its still easily 4 x faster than a Terran remaxing out off production buildings. Infestors start with a fungal once you have the upgrade. So even if you are able to take a very good trade if the zerg is macroing his eco well you wont be able to get back on top of him b4 hes remaxed and repeat etc.
On September 11 2019 02:09 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: A big issue with the balance is simply how MUCH easier zerg is to play than terran. Unless it changed a lot if LotV, I played them both at a near GM level and mechanically, zerg is leagues easier than terran. The only real challenge as a zerg player was to scout well, because of the drone/army situation with larvas. Didn t play much protoss so i wont comment on them.
Im sure at the highest level the giant gap in skills and mechanics required also plays a huge role.
If zerg was much harder to play, they would be way less strong.
Zerg being easier to play was maybe(maybe!) a thing in 2012; LoTV is another thing entirely.
The only real problem I see with TvZ is that if Blizzard buffed Thors with the intention of making them outrange Broodlords, they should be doing that; at the moment, mass Thors doesn't seem to be a suitable answer. I also think ghosts are used/mixed in too few at the moment.
Mostly agree with this as long as you are talking about Cyclone / Mech or BC Mech styles. Bio is still as hard as its ever been..there really isnt a comparison from any other race regarding degree of difficulty vs bio terran. But the BC/Clone mech is just as easy as any Zerg or Protoss comp. Late game micro off these comps isnt any harder either.
I don't understand why so many haters trying to discredit Serral by complaining about his race. Do you see us complaining about Terran's dominance in GSL for years?
-KobeSteak
Me neither. Serral has been off-racing for years with both T and P, and people still whine about his Z.
He can be the top Zerg and the best player in the world, only because it's not about the race for him.
He has been already years over 6000+ MMR player of T and P on ladders. People whine about that he is so good.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
Lol seriously?
You are praising Maru engage from 3 different angles? Everyone know you are a terran fan boy here but you need to take off your bias glasses
Zerg/Toss engages at 3 different angles simultaneously all the time in every single game. So when a terran does it, all a sudden it's amazing?
Did you ever think that it's a bit easier to attack from 3 different angles with zerg/toss than terran because of how the units are? :DD Have you ever played terran before?
Regardless, I think it's tough to ask ppl for 'style' changes that are predicated on immense physical ability. I don't know if Serral has so much of a late game 'style' as he is just the most mechanically dominant player.
It is a style allright, the same one as RoRo and Sniper but its still a style.
When Serral started winning big(and at the time of his most prestigious and arguably most dominant considering his level of play and how hard his path was), BL Infestors was a long forgotten composition and Carriers were still very strong, lategame ZvP was mostly fine; also, Serral mantained his streak at HSC when Terran were clearly much quicker to understand the shift in TvZ's meta and were erasing every Zerg.
It's immensely wrong to compare Serral to Roro and Sniper who thrived in a very favourable meta and disappeared rightly after, and to think Serral's success can be attributed to the race of his choice is delusional.
I think the big problem with terran vs. anything late game is just how bad vikings are. This unit is in dire need of a late game buff. Terran doesn't have good AtA options and are forced into a narrow gameplan with Thors that are so slow and immobile. If terran had a better way to counter Zerg and Protoss air late game with a mobile army alot of their problems would be alleviated.
Also I think PvZ is much more balanced late game for a protss. But my Protoss/Zerg is only M1 level, so that doesn't really mean anything
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Maru makes the most out of the mechanics, similarly to Innovation(who's name is the right opposite to what he does). They're both like the old soO or Rain. Extremly powerful macro, micro, but no innovation whatsoever. GumiHo is the Terran equivalent of sOs/Has/Parting. Truth is there are more non-standard players now in the P/Z races but they were before. Most of the Terrans were mechanical beasts. MMA, Polt, Taeja, Bomber. Then we had Mvp or ByuN. And on the other hand Gumi.
It's like saying that Rain's game never evolved. (in SC2) Well, yeah. The biggest change he does was an occassional cheese. The same applies to Stats. EVERY race in this game has players who are not improving and are maximizing their mechanical wins.
At the same time MAru was the first one who won maps in a big match with mech in SC2. But hey, let's forget that, shall we? So what are you talking about? (edit> maybe applies just to LotV, but I think Gumi never played pure mech, it was bio mech. maybe I'm wrong, still, it was presented by Artosis and Tasteless this way, deal with it )
He's the epitome of multiprong harass, multi prong attacks, occassional innovation that takes breath. And that's not just shift clicking like some harass is(e.g. roach/chargelot/hellion "runbys" later in the game)
oh come on....how do you put sOs, parting, and has in the same category lmao
Parting was a mechanical beast in his prime. Arguably the greatest micro player of all time. sOs did rely on knowledge of the game and innovative strategies. I agree with you there. Has should not be in a conversation involving the all time greats LOL
Innovation and Maru are very different players imo.
Maru's mechanics are no better than stats' or classic's for example. His deep understanding of the game brought him the bulk of his success. That's why I put Maru up there with gumiho as one of the few relatively dynamic Terran pros. Innovation on the other hand is as you described
Terran players arent the only mechanical beasts. Serral and rogue are mechanical juggernauts. I can't think of any player with serral's mechanics. Life eclipsed all his contemporaries in terms of mechanics. Parting, Hero, Classic, Zest, Stats, Rain all absurd mechanics.
Stats is the complete opposite of players who are not improving.
We just saw stats topple the seemingly invincible serral in not one but TWO offline series in which stats pulled out insane strategies and tactics. Massive blink timing against ravager swarm host with immaculate army maneuvering. Triple oracle + phoenix abuse with a twist - stats used insane stasis trap tactics for example. A literal carrier runby. Even the game stats lost he used a lategame army cmopisition and strategy never before seen in PvZ
Stats vs maru - we saw unprecedented high templar usage and placement. Ive never seen high templar placed around the map like that with 3 warp prisms flying around.
Then you have Dark who just toppled TY with some innovative plays. The lurker play vs TY's mech was brilliant. Never seen lurkers used like that against mech of all things...who wouldve thought right? Or Dark's retreat nydus. Dark's usage of burrowed infestors. Meanwhle TY was playing the same way he's been for years. harass spam.
Maru goes bonkers sometimes like his mass nukes vs scarlett but the best korean terran is lacking compared to the best korean protoss and the best korean zerg
Alright i'll bite.
Tell me an idea for something that will make Terran do well again. I'm sure that with your imagination Terran will destroy :D
I mean maybe stuff like the poster first suggested in this sub-topic.
Ghosts flanks are really underused vs Templar flanks, especially considering that ghosts move faster and can cloak. It feels Zergs have squeezed a lot of extra utility out of Infestors by using burrow, its spells and splitting them up, likewise Templar with prism support, or spreading them behind sight blockers and high grounds.
Terrans have squeezed a ton out of the Raven historically too, turret harass, or targeting a medivac with Hunter seeker and boosting into enemy clumps etc.
Ghosts in a combat capacity, maybe not so much. What was said that they’re often just sitting with the bio in a big group does somewhat ring true to me anyway.
Medivacs with boost are extremely fast. Terrans have scan to fully set up an attack in advance with scan. I haven’t really seen much use of a suicide ghost drop in a boosted medivac to try and nail an EMP on casters. It wouldn’t be hugely more difficult than weaving an oracle in for an envision and getting away.
As a caveat, such things might not be practically feasible, nor even if they are doable may not swing the tide in lategame.
Perhaps because both Toss and Zerg actually rely on casters to win games over stock combat units they have really explored how to keep them alive and use them better. Terrans maybe only have to consider such things more in the odd game that goes to real late game and not every game they are playing and practicing.
I stopped SC for some months then .. when i would like to reach my old playing strenght, i have as Terran to face against violents games... Why ? Cause I have to practice much more than a Zerg or a Protoss player.
I couldn t imagine how the game is challenging and demanding for a pro player Terran, it s insane how the creep is always spreading everywhere without any penalty system, I mean a real penalty system... Obviously, the idea of creep is good and it s a good addition since SC:BW - it s an interresant thing, but it s poorly implemented like what ? Z player can create about 300 tumours ?
Which race has a free invisible unit at the start of the game ? Which race has to struggle against creeping the ground ? while Z have to roll with the punchs then draw up an action plan, forcing Terrans to endure long games with an high number of sequenced APM ?
That s not a surprise if AlphaStar has also a longer curve of learning with Terrans...
Also confused why so many people are acting like he said there was a balance problem. He absolutely did not lol. A race being favored in one part of the game will always exist. Z being favored vs T in the late game has basically been there throughout SC2 outside of the 2 month period with the raven nukes. To me outside of that time this is the closest to even late game meta in TvZ that has ever existed.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
On September 11 2019 05:20 GoSuNamhciR wrote: I think the big problem with terran vs. anything late game is just how bad vikings are. This unit is in dire need of a late game buff. Terran doesn't have good AtA options and are forced into a narrow gameplan with Thors that are so slow and immobile. If terran had a better way to counter Zerg and Protoss air late game with a mobile army alot of their problems would be alleviated.
Also I think PvZ is much more balanced late game for a protss. But my Protoss/Zerg is only M1 level, so that doesn't really mean anything
Terran can obliterate late game protoss with mass BCs. The only time I've seen pro level mass BCs lose to lategame protoss is Maru vs Dear.
Every other time the Protoss mass tempest compositions get steamrolled
Maru vs Classic Beastyqt vs Mana Beastyqt vs Harstem Heromrine vs Beastyqt TY vs Creator
Vikings do not need buffs. Thors are fine against BLs which are even slower than thors.
PvZ is basically unwinnable in the lategame for Protoss.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
There is a difference between innovation and abusing broken features of the game lmao.
The BC wasnt nerfed btw. It was overall buffed. Yamato was nerfed but it still gets to OHKO or 2HKO everything it needs to...nobody uses void rays. On the other hand, it got a MASSIVE buff in the form of being able to fire while moving.
Nice clickbait but also very true with context. When BL/Inferstor combo first prevailed, some would say about Zerg players that their "practice have paid off" or "have a good sense of distance". But now we all know that it's just because this combo have super long attack/spellcast range. With Serral or Reynor (and Elazer)'s level of micro, it's basically unsolvable.
Some possible counter-measure for Terran though: massive BC fleet warp in + Yamato all infestors; this tactic was proposed by Heromarine if memory serves me right. I haven't seen many actual games with this move though.
Another wild proposition: fast Medivac drop Ghosts + EMP against infestors. Obviously hard to micro and you have to evade infestor fungal. This was proposed by F91 during streaming, but I'm not sure if it is applicable.
Again I'm no GM player and this is only a theoretical discussion. One nerf in the last patch I feel unnecessary was the warp prism though. The cut in pickup radius is too much.
On September 11 2019 05:20 GoSuNamhciR wrote: I think the big problem with terran vs. anything late game is just how bad vikings are. This unit is in dire need of a late game buff. Terran doesn't have good AtA options and are forced into a narrow gameplan with Thors that are so slow and immobile. If terran had a better way to counter Zerg and Protoss air late game with a mobile army alot of their problems would be alleviated.
Also I think PvZ is much more balanced late game for a protss. But my Protoss/Zerg is only M1 level, so that doesn't really mean anything
Terran can obliterate late game protoss with mass BCs. The only time I've seen pro level mass BCs lose to lategame protoss is Maru vs Dear.
Every other time the Protoss mass tempest compositions get steamrolled
Maru vs Classic Beastyqt vs Mana Beastyqt vs Harstem Heromrine vs Beastyqt TY vs Creator
Vikings do not need buffs. Thors are fine against BLs which are even slower than thors.
PvZ is basically unwinnable in the lategame for Protoss.
With Infested Terrans damage nerfed and Carriers buffed, I wouldn't be so sure that PvZ is still unwinnable.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
There is a difference between innovation and abusing broken features of the game lmao.
The BC wasnt nerfed btw. It was overall buffed. Yamato was nerfed but it still gets to OHKO or 2HKO everything it needs to...nobody uses void rays. On the other hand, it got a MASSIVE buff in the form of being able to fire while moving.
Is their though? arguably any new strategy needs to be strong for it to be used. If its not strong whats the point of using it? zerg complain terran dont inovate but when they do o boy they get nerfed hard
On September 11 2019 05:20 GoSuNamhciR wrote: I think the big problem with terran vs. anything late game is just how bad vikings are. This unit is in dire need of a late game buff. Terran doesn't have good AtA options and are forced into a narrow gameplan with Thors that are so slow and immobile. If terran had a better way to counter Zerg and Protoss air late game with a mobile army alot of their problems would be alleviated.
Also I think PvZ is much more balanced late game for a protss. But my Protoss/Zerg is only M1 level, so that doesn't really mean anything
Terran can obliterate late game protoss with mass BCs. The only time I've seen pro level mass BCs lose to lategame protoss is Maru vs Dear.
Every other time the Protoss mass tempest compositions get steamrolled
Maru vs Classic Beastyqt vs Mana Beastyqt vs Harstem Heromrine vs Beastyqt TY vs Creator
Vikings do not need buffs. Thors are fine against BLs which are even slower than thors.
PvZ is basically unwinnable in the lategame for Protoss.
With Infested Terrans damage nerfed and Carriers buffed, I wouldn't be so sure that PvZ is still unwinnable.
The carrier buff is a literal joke. And the IT nerf is more significant against BCs not skyotss.
PvZ will still be unwinnable. Protoss efficiency in the lategame just isnt there. Building interceptors faster just to be destroyed faster is not efficiency.
PvZ was difficult (although not unwinnable) even in 2018, when carriers had graviton catapult, Tempests were more durable, and Feedback was extremely threatening. Protoss lategame was completely defanged and is helpless against the ultimate lategame zerg and terran comps.
A 2 second interceptor build time buff and a IT damage output reduction does not reverse what happened to Protoss lategame
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
There is a difference between innovation and abusing broken features of the game lmao.
The BC wasnt nerfed btw. It was overall buffed. Yamato was nerfed but it still gets to OHKO or 2HKO everything it needs to...nobody uses void rays. On the other hand, it got a MASSIVE buff in the form of being able to fire while moving.
Is their though? arguably any new strategy needs to be strong for it to be used. If its not strong whats the point of using it? zerg complain terran dont inovate but when they do o boy they get nerfed hard
Yes, there is.
Zerg and Protoss players innovate more in the face of nerfs.
Terran receives a nerf to an incredibly broken feature, and gets buffs in other areas.
Youre acting like Terran is the only thing that loses overpowered strategies/builds.
As if protoss hasnt lost the blink all in, the adept all ins, the KA, etc
On September 11 2019 05:20 GoSuNamhciR wrote: I think the big problem with terran vs. anything late game is just how bad vikings are. This unit is in dire need of a late game buff. Terran doesn't have good AtA options and are forced into a narrow gameplan with Thors that are so slow and immobile. If terran had a better way to counter Zerg and Protoss air late game with a mobile army alot of their problems would be alleviated.
Also I think PvZ is much more balanced late game for a protss. But my Protoss/Zerg is only M1 level, so that doesn't really mean anything
Terran can obliterate late game protoss with mass BCs. The only time I've seen pro level mass BCs lose to lategame protoss is Maru vs Dear.
Every other time the Protoss mass tempest compositions get steamrolled
Maru vs Classic Beastyqt vs Mana Beastyqt vs Harstem Heromrine vs Beastyqt TY vs Creator
It's funny because I agree with you on the opinion that Terrans should make more BC's in the late-game, but your arguments are so disinginuous that I feel the need to point it out.
Out of the 5 games you used to prove your point, only one can be conclusive. You're seriously using Beastyqt as an exemple to why BC's are OP? I love the guy but come on, he's a streamer playing random and doing stupid builds for fun. And one of his game is against Heromarine??? Is that a typo? And using TY vs Creator as en example... TY the best late game terran player beating a Protoss who hasn't been remotely relevant for the past 6 or 7 years? That would be like saying mass voidrays are OP because Stats beat Bomber with it this one time.
Vikings do not need buffs. Thors are fine against BLs which are even slower than thors.
Nice whataboutism. What do thors and BLs have to do with the strength of vikings? Vikings are dead supply except in TvT because both Protoss and Zerg have strong AOE spells that can hit air and decimate viking's low health pool.
PvZ is basically unwinnable in the lategame for Protoss
Be careful writing unfounded blanket statement that can be easily contradicted by facts. 67% and 62% winrate doesn't seem that "unwinnable" to me when talking about 15 to 20 minutes and 20 minutes or more respectively.
It's funny because I agree with you on the opinion that Terrans should make more BC's in the late-game, but your arguments are so disinginuous that I feel the need to point it out.
Out of the 5 games you used to prove your point, only one can be conclusive. You're seriously using Beastyqt as an exemple to why BC's are OP? I love the guy but come on, he's a streamer playing random and doing stupid builds for fun. And one of his game is against Heromarine??? Is that a typo? And using TY vs Creator as en example... TY the best late game terran player beating a Protoss who hasn't been remotely relevant for the past 6 or 7 years? That would be like saying mass voidrays are OP because Stats beat Bomber with it this one time.
You are literally proving my point.
Yes - Beastyqt is a streamer
A streamer who regularly steamrolls some of Europe's best Protoss PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS like Harstem and Mana using mass BCs in the lategame, which is the hardest phase of SC2
And when the roles are flipped - streamer using Protoss against a top EU Terran Pro in heromarine, beastyqt loses
The common denominator here is that BCs stomp protoss lategame, even if the BC user is a streamer and the Protoss player is a top professional player.
TY vs creator would be irrelevant if that's the only example I gave. But I gave you many games.
On September 11 2019 13:05 fastr wrote:
Nice whataboutism. What do thors and BLs have to do with the strength of vikings? Vikings are dead supply except in TvT because both Protoss and Zerg have strong AOE spells that can hit air and decimate viking's low health pool.
Read the post i was responding to and you'll know why Thors are relevant.
Vikings are not dead supply. Especially now in TvP where Terran has AOE that is stronger than storm while also preventing storm.
Vikings are weaker in TvZ but a handful them can be efficient in damaging brood lords and threatening vipers
On September 11 2019 13:05 fastr wrote: Be careful writing unfounded blanket statement that can be easily contradicted by facts. 67% and 62% winrate doesn't seem that "unwinnable" to me when talking about 15 to 20 minutes and 20 minutes or more respectively.
fine, i will clarify my statement
BL infestor is virtually invincible vs protoss in the lategame
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
There is a difference between innovation and abusing broken features of the game lmao.
The BC wasnt nerfed btw. It was overall buffed. Yamato was nerfed but it still gets to OHKO or 2HKO everything it needs to...nobody uses void rays. On the other hand, it got a MASSIVE buff in the form of being able to fire while moving.
Is their though? arguably any new strategy needs to be strong for it to be used. If its not strong whats the point of using it? zerg complain terran dont inovate but when they do o boy they get nerfed hard
Yes, there is.
Zerg and Protoss players innovate more in the face of nerfs.
Terran receives a nerf to an incredibly broken feature, and gets buffs in other areas.
Youre acting like Terran is the only thing that loses overpowered strategies/builds.
As if protoss hasnt lost the blink all in, the adept all ins, the KA, etc
name to me one zerg or protoss unit that has received a complete rework such that it now requires a different production structure to make and functions entirely differently.
name to me one caster unit zerg or protoss has that had 2 of its 3 abilities removed and replaced with something completely different.
can you one of these things. I cant.
when protoss gets nerfed they have the range of a unit's pickup changed. When terran gets nerfed they have one of their units reworked. but sure terran cant adapt to drastic changes, they just keep going bio lolololololol. Its not like when they develop new strategies bliz just removes them from the game nope that's not it at all.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
There is a difference between innovation and abusing broken features of the game lmao.
The BC wasnt nerfed btw. It was overall buffed. Yamato was nerfed but it still gets to OHKO or 2HKO everything it needs to...nobody uses void rays. On the other hand, it got a MASSIVE buff in the form of being able to fire while moving.
Is their though? arguably any new strategy needs to be strong for it to be used. If its not strong whats the point of using it? zerg complain terran dont inovate but when they do o boy they get nerfed hard
Yes, there is.
Zerg and Protoss players innovate more in the face of nerfs.
Terran receives a nerf to an incredibly broken feature, and gets buffs in other areas.
Youre acting like Terran is the only thing that loses overpowered strategies/builds.
As if protoss hasnt lost the blink all in, the adept all ins, the KA, etc
name to me one zerg or protoss unit that has received a complete rework such that it now requires a different production structure to make and functions entirely differently.
name to me one caster unit zerg or protoss has that had 2 of its 3 abilities removed and replaced with something completely different.
can you one of these things. I cant.
when protoss gets nerfed they have the range of a unit's pickup changed. When terran gets nerfed they have one of their units reworked. but sure terran cant adapt to drastic changes, they just keep going bio lolololololol. Its not like when they develop new strategies bliz just removes them from the game nope that's not it at all.
I quite enjoy how we show them all the innovations and yet - Doen't count, TERRANS DON'T INNOVATE!$!#!# And then they say - look, I don't know HOW they should innovate, all I know is their innovations are not good enough for me to accept them but they need to innovate
Edit> The last thing I remember being changed this way was the Khaydarin Amulet. Can't remember anything remotely similar for Zerg. (but i am mostly Protoss )
Edit 2> BTW I am a Protoss fanboy, at least I used to be until LotV was released with the glorious idiocy named Adept. I hate adepts with furious rage. (it was the biggest reason I started to leave mirror matches, I just hate PvP nowadays)
It's funny because I agree with you on the opinion that Terrans should make more BC's in the late-game, but your arguments are so disinginuous that I feel the need to point it out.
Out of the 5 games you used to prove your point, only one can be conclusive. You're seriously using Beastyqt as an exemple to why BC's are OP? I love the guy but come on, he's a streamer playing random and doing stupid builds for fun. And one of his game is against Heromarine??? Is that a typo? And using TY vs Creator as en example... TY the best late game terran player beating a Protoss who hasn't been remotely relevant for the past 6 or 7 years? That would be like saying mass voidrays are OP because Stats beat Bomber with it this one time.
You are literally proving my point.
Yes - Beastyqt is a streamer
A streamer who regularly steamrolls some of Europe's best Protoss PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS like Harstem and Mana using mass BCs in the lategame, which is the hardest phase of SC2
And when the roles are flipped - streamer using Protoss against a top EU Terran Pro in heromarine, beastyqt loses
The common denominator here is that BCs stomp protoss lategame, even if the BC user is a streamer and the Protoss player is a top professional player.
TY vs creator would be irrelevant if that's the only example I gave. But I gave you many games.
Nice whataboutism. What do thors and BLs have to do with the strength of vikings? Vikings are dead supply except in TvT because both Protoss and Zerg have strong AOE spells that can hit air and decimate viking's low health pool.
Read the post i was responding to and you'll know why Thors are relevant.
Vikings are not dead supply. Especially now in TvP where Terran has AOE that is stronger than storm while also preventing storm.
Vikings are weaker in TvZ but a handful them can be efficient in damaging brood lords and threatening vipers
On September 11 2019 13:05 fastr wrote: Be careful writing unfounded blanket statement that can be easily contradicted by facts. 67% and 62% winrate doesn't seem that "unwinnable" to me when talking about 15 to 20 minutes and 20 minutes or more respectively.
fine, i will clarify my statement
BL infestor is virtually invincible vs protoss in the lategame
All I have ever seen you do, on every forum you are on, is balance whine about terran, I actually dont know how you have the time of day to complain this often, it's pretty wild stuff, I mean do you even play sc2? I just always read your posts because you post everywhere, and every single time I ignore it because it's usually just theory based nonsense.
But I am generally curious, how much of this game do you actually play, what level of play do you complain from? I just cant comprehend how much time you invest into typing balance whining and praising the all powerful zerg race. It's getting exhausting to read.
Try and just enjoy the game instead of preaching on the forums night and day lmao. Omega yikes
I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
i've written about this before, but it's got to be pretty map dependant. spending 150/125 and sitting on 300/300 worth of ghost upgrades. 10 seconds of cloaking is about 15 energy spent + 25 activation. for the sake of brevity, it takes about 50 seconds IRL for a fresh ghost to have enough to cloak for 10 seconds and EMP. for every 5 seconds of cloaking, that is a~7 energy
having a chance to seal an engagement to have a chance at winning the game down the line, unsure of where the engagement might actually take place, makes this a very difficult core tactic to back. it's probable to work very well especially with practice and it seems very strong on paper, nobody is arguing against that. but it's the amount of factors involved. and as it's been said, the amount of ghosts you would need vs. the possible solutions.
speaking as the zerg player btw, the reality is, when you're about 20 range from a base--army meeting army--and creep+spores being out about as far, tanks are becoming a liability. banelings will happily run in to take a fishing ghost, or multiple. i think it really comes down to this baneling unit in equal or greater resource situations for Z. and then time becomes the greatest factor in those situations.
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
If anything I feel it’s the other way around, least I find it easier to babysit a Prism than staggered Templars, especially when trying to time a storm. I think partly that’s because you’re pre-actively planning a move vs reacting quickly to your opponent showing up in the right spot.
I was testing it a bit earlier, seems doable.
On the other hand in how it fits into the flow of a game, Hm. The only scenario I feel you’d ever want to sac medivacs and EMP drop is as a Hail Mary to try and nail all the Infestor energy in a TvZ.
Even assuming you can get the timing down, scan, find a corridor to boost through, drop and nail your EMPs, compositionally it’s going to be very awkward. I mean presumably a game scenario where you both have ghosts and medivacs and can spare them for such a move you probably have an edge anyway to win with a more conventional engagement.
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
If anything I feel it’s the other way around, least I find it easier to babysit a Prism than staggered Templars, especially when trying to time a storm. I think partly that’s because you’re pre-actively planning a move vs reacting quickly to your opponent showing up in the right spot.
I was testing it a bit earlier, seems doable.
On the other hand in how it fits into the flow of a game, Hm. The only scenario I feel you’d ever want to sac medivacs and EMP drop is as a Hail Mary to try and nail all the Infestor energy in a TvZ.
Even assuming you can get the timing down, scan, find a corridor to boost through, drop and nail your EMPs, compositionally it’s going to be very awkward. I mean presumably a game scenario where you both have ghosts and medivacs and can spare them for such a move you probably have an edge anyway to win with a more conventional engagement.
Yeah my point about it is basically that controlling it would probably be less worth than just fighting conventionally. You still need to control your bio and if your APM is being spent on controlling a medivac dropping ghosts and then EMPing i think it's way too much focus on something that doesn't matter if your main army melts at the same time.
One problem for TvP for that is also that if protoss splits the HTs or has them in the prism, dropping ghosts from medivacs is kinda pointless because the main targets are unavailable to be hit.
The way Terran works, atleast with bio, is almost always the way that it's better to take a conventional engagement than micro one or two units in a different spot, because you almost have to babysit your main army.
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
If anything I feel it’s the other way around, least I find it easier to babysit a Prism than staggered Templars, especially when trying to time a storm. I think partly that’s because you’re pre-actively planning a move vs reacting quickly to your opponent showing up in the right spot.
I was testing it a bit earlier, seems doable.
On the other hand in how it fits into the flow of a game, Hm. The only scenario I feel you’d ever want to sac medivacs and EMP drop is as a Hail Mary to try and nail all the Infestor energy in a TvZ.
Even assuming you can get the timing down, scan, find a corridor to boost through, drop and nail your EMPs, compositionally it’s going to be very awkward. I mean presumably a game scenario where you both have ghosts and medivacs and can spare them for such a move you probably have an edge anyway to win with a more conventional engagement.
Yeah my point about it is basically that controlling it would probably be less worth than just fighting conventionally. You still need to control your bio and if your APM is being spent on controlling a medivac dropping ghosts and then EMPing i think it's way too much focus on something that doesn't matter if your main army melts at the same time.
One problem for TvP for that is also that if protoss splits the HTs or has them in the prism, dropping ghosts from medivacs is kinda pointless because the main targets are unavailable to be hit.
The way Terran works, atleast with bio, is almost always the way that it's better to take a conventional engagement than micro one or two units in a different spot, because you almost have to babysit your main army.
But the whole discussion is kinda pointless. HeroMarine(I believe) did a ghost flank few days ago.
There were ghost flanks in the PvT before, that's why Templars are nowadays in the prism, ghosts were too dangerous.
It's just not present nowadays that much, which isn't that surprising considering many players stop using ghosts and before that it was mostly for the snipe.
On September 11 2019 22:01 stilt wrote: Serral is such a nice guy, he seems against region lock and thinks Z op, I wonder why koreans' exclusive fans dislike him
Mostly because of the fanboys, not because of him?
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
If anything I feel it’s the other way around, least I find it easier to babysit a Prism than staggered Templars, especially when trying to time a storm. I think partly that’s because you’re pre-actively planning a move vs reacting quickly to your opponent showing up in the right spot.
I was testing it a bit earlier, seems doable.
On the other hand in how it fits into the flow of a game, Hm. The only scenario I feel you’d ever want to sac medivacs and EMP drop is as a Hail Mary to try and nail all the Infestor energy in a TvZ.
Even assuming you can get the timing down, scan, find a corridor to boost through, drop and nail your EMPs, compositionally it’s going to be very awkward. I mean presumably a game scenario where you both have ghosts and medivacs and can spare them for such a move you probably have an edge anyway to win with a more conventional engagement.
Yeah my point about it is basically that controlling it would probably be less worth than just fighting conventionally. You still need to control your bio and if your APM is being spent on controlling a medivac dropping ghosts and then EMPing i think it's way too much focus on something that doesn't matter if your main army melts at the same time.
One problem for TvP for that is also that if protoss splits the HTs or has them in the prism, dropping ghosts from medivacs is kinda pointless because the main targets are unavailable to be hit.
The way Terran works, atleast with bio, is almost always the way that it's better to take a conventional engagement than micro one or two units in a different spot, because you almost have to babysit your main army.
But the whole discussion is kinda pointless. HeroMarine(I believe) did a ghost flank few days ago.
There were ghost flanks in the PvT before, that's why Templars are nowadays in the prism, ghosts were too dangerous.
It's just not present nowadays that much, which isn't that surprising considering many players stop using ghosts and before that it was mostly for the snipe.
I was specifically talking about medivac drop + ghosts in this post.
On September 11 2019 22:01 stilt wrote: Serral is such a nice guy, he seems against region lock and thinks Z op, I wonder why koreans' exclusive fans dislike him
Mostly because of the fanboys, not because of him?
Because he beats your idols? Most of Serral's fanboys state facts too unconfortable for some of you to accept(some exaggerate, it's true); Maru's fans are waay more obnoxious.
On September 11 2019 22:01 stilt wrote: Serral is such a nice guy, he seems against region lock and thinks Z op, I wonder why koreans' exclusive fans dislike him
I actually think he can be pretty funny at times. I used to be bothered that he won so many tournaments because I thought he was being over hyped but now I respect him as a great player.
I usually am not really rooting for him to win but it is a similar story to Maru. Feels like both of them have won so much already that it feels unfair. That's why I'm not really rooting for Dark to win this GSL even though he's one of my favourite players. And if I am to be totally honest, I sometimes don't want him to win tournament because I don't want to wake up next day and have to read foreigners > Korean or Korean scene ded. I honestly don't mind if people say Serral is almsot GOAT/bonjwa because even though I disagree, I think it is a valid opinion and he's definitely in the discussion for both.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
Funny how you only list all the terran builds that were nerfed, but not mention any of the toss/zerg builds that were nerf to the ground. Want me to list all the zerg/toss builds that were nerfed to the ground cause of the terran whine community?
Instead of complaining about it, Zerg/toss still found new builds and playstyle.
Like i said, Terran has no excuses not adapting and learning how to flank with ghost from different angles.
Parting was the first to show how powerful it was back in WOL days Zergs kinda figuring it out how to flank with infestor from behind. (against Hellion cyclone style) Yet Terran still bunch ghost with it's bio ball and emp from the front.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
Funny how you only list all the terran builds that were nerfed, but not mention any of the toss/zerg builds that were nerf to the ground. Want me to list all the zerg/toss builds that were nerfed to the ground cause of the terran whine community?
Instead of complaining about it, Zerg/toss still found new builds and playstyle.
Like i said, Terran has no excuses not adapting and learning how to flank with ghost from different angles.
Parting was the first to show how powerful it was back in WOL days Zergs kinda figuring it out how to flank with infestor from behind. (against Hellion cyclone style) Yet Terran still bunch ghost with it's bio ball and emp from the front.
Terran whine community xD
I mean come on man your comments read like parody.
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
Funny how you only list all the terran builds that were nerfed, but not mention any of the toss/zerg builds that were nerf to the ground. Want me to list all the zerg/toss builds that were nerfed to the ground cause of the terran whine community?
Instead of complaining about it, Zerg/toss still found new builds and playstyle.
Like i said, Terran has no excuses not adapting and learning how to flank with ghost from different angles.
Parting was the first to show how powerful it was back in WOL days Zergs kinda figuring it out how to flank with infestor from behind. (against Hellion cyclone style) Yet Terran still bunch ghost with it's bio ball and emp from the front.
Terran whine community xD
I mean come on man your comments read like parody.
Similar to all your comments in this thread though.
Not sure if you were trolling or being serious, either way I did get a few chuckle from your posts lol.
Everytime I need a small laugh, I just need to read some terran fanboy post =)
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
Funny how you only list all the terran builds that were nerfed, but not mention any of the toss/zerg builds that were nerf to the ground. Want me to list all the zerg/toss builds that were nerfed to the ground cause of the terran whine community?
Instead of complaining about it, Zerg/toss still found new builds and playstyle.
Like i said, Terran has no excuses not adapting and learning how to flank with ghost from different angles.
Parting was the first to show how powerful it was back in WOL days Zergs kinda figuring it out how to flank with infestor from behind. (against Hellion cyclone style) Yet Terran still bunch ghost with it's bio ball and emp from the front.
Terran whine community xD
I mean come on man your comments read like parody.
Similar to all your comments in this thread though.
Not sure if you were trolling or being serious, either way I did get a few chuckle from your posts lol.
Everytime I need a small laugh, I just need to read some terran fanboy post =)
I mean reading your comments kind of makes it obvious that you don't really know how starcraft 2 works on a fundamental level, which is why your ideas are kind of laughable. Combine that with an ego bigger than the sun and no self awareness and we have a nice cocktail. :D
On September 10 2019 16:55 midhigh wrote: I am not saying i could do it, but for me it is really suprising no terran player basically has ever tried to flank with ghosts. They usually send their ghost's to nuke, while they could try to flank with a group of ghosts from many angles to EMP Infestors, and actually try to kill the Zerg army, or weaken enough to win later. We have seen many games and fights won by Zergs (mostly Serral), against superior army with good ling/roach/etc flanks.
I know, it is kind of risky, but when you are already behind (because Zerg late game is OP theorically), you must try to do something unexpected.
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
Funny how you only list all the terran builds that were nerfed, but not mention any of the toss/zerg builds that were nerf to the ground. Want me to list all the zerg/toss builds that were nerfed to the ground cause of the terran whine community?
Instead of complaining about it, Zerg/toss still found new builds and playstyle.
Like i said, Terran has no excuses not adapting and learning how to flank with ghost from different angles.
Parting was the first to show how powerful it was back in WOL days Zergs kinda figuring it out how to flank with infestor from behind. (against Hellion cyclone style) Yet Terran still bunch ghost with it's bio ball and emp from the front.
Terran whine community xD
I mean come on man your comments read like parody.
Similar to all your comments in this thread though.
Not sure if you were trolling or being serious, either way I did get a few chuckle from your posts lol.
Everytime I need a small laugh, I just need to read some terran fanboy post =)
I mean reading your comments kind of makes it obvious that you don't really know how starcraft 2 works on a fundamental level, which is why your ideas are kind of laughable. Combine that with an ego bigger than the sun and no self awareness and we have a nice cocktail. :D
You're also free to point out where i am wrong.
Actually you just proved my point more that most whiners such as yourself are Gold and has no knowledge of the game whatsoever.
But I'm done feeding a troll like you. Arguing with Terran fanboys is similar arguing with someone who still believes Earth is flat. But feel free and carry on with the rest of your crew.
On September 10 2019 23:58 KobeSteak wrote: [quote]
In general, Terrans never adapt/evolve their playstyle compare to toss and zergs.
Terrans were always praised for their bio splits against banes or HT for years. However, today splitting is a basic skill that all 3 races have in their skillset
Toss and Zergs learned how to use their spellcaster more effectively, e.g warp prism HT. Both toss and zergs know how to flank with their spellcasters at different locations/angles
Been almost a decade and terran still use ghost the same way. Ghost will ALWAYS bunched with the bio and come in the front (one direction). You will never see them use ghost and flank from behind or even hide them in medivac.
Terran engagements has always been the same with very minor changes through the years. Frontal engagement and hopefully break enemy with brutal bio DPS
Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
Funny how you only list all the terran builds that were nerfed, but not mention any of the toss/zerg builds that were nerf to the ground. Want me to list all the zerg/toss builds that were nerfed to the ground cause of the terran whine community?
Instead of complaining about it, Zerg/toss still found new builds and playstyle.
Like i said, Terran has no excuses not adapting and learning how to flank with ghost from different angles.
Parting was the first to show how powerful it was back in WOL days Zergs kinda figuring it out how to flank with infestor from behind. (against Hellion cyclone style) Yet Terran still bunch ghost with it's bio ball and emp from the front.
Terran whine community xD
I mean come on man your comments read like parody.
Similar to all your comments in this thread though.
Not sure if you were trolling or being serious, either way I did get a few chuckle from your posts lol.
Everytime I need a small laugh, I just need to read some terran fanboy post =)
I mean reading your comments kind of makes it obvious that you don't really know how starcraft 2 works on a fundamental level, which is why your ideas are kind of laughable. Combine that with an ego bigger than the sun and no self awareness and we have a nice cocktail. :D
You're also free to point out where i am wrong.
Actually you just proved my point more that most whiners such as yourself are Gold and has no knowledge of the game whatsoever.
But I'm done feeding a troll like you. Arguing with Terran fanboys is similar arguing with someone who still believes Earth is flat. But feel free and carry on with the rest of your crew.
It's a bad thing to brag about one's own skill so i will do it for luolis, he is about gm level and was available to vote for in the recent nation wars polls for finland. You on the other hand are a new account with 18 posts. I wonder who we'll give more credence based on these informations in general :O
On September 11 2019 00:13 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] Is this a troll account? HAve you like ever seen the top Maru's games? The ones where the spectator has issues of following the fight on the maximum zoom-out while Maru engages from 3 different angles, simultaneously? IN HOTS? Where have you been when mulitple shifts in T play happened? It may surprise you but T play evolved. If nothing else - the damn Raven play?
Like, seriously?
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
Funny how you only list all the terran builds that were nerfed, but not mention any of the toss/zerg builds that were nerf to the ground. Want me to list all the zerg/toss builds that were nerfed to the ground cause of the terran whine community?
Instead of complaining about it, Zerg/toss still found new builds and playstyle.
Like i said, Terran has no excuses not adapting and learning how to flank with ghost from different angles.
Parting was the first to show how powerful it was back in WOL days Zergs kinda figuring it out how to flank with infestor from behind. (against Hellion cyclone style) Yet Terran still bunch ghost with it's bio ball and emp from the front.
Terran whine community xD
I mean come on man your comments read like parody.
Similar to all your comments in this thread though.
Not sure if you were trolling or being serious, either way I did get a few chuckle from your posts lol.
Everytime I need a small laugh, I just need to read some terran fanboy post =)
I mean reading your comments kind of makes it obvious that you don't really know how starcraft 2 works on a fundamental level, which is why your ideas are kind of laughable. Combine that with an ego bigger than the sun and no self awareness and we have a nice cocktail. :D
You're also free to point out where i am wrong.
Actually you just proved my point more that most whiners such as yourself are Gold and has no knowledge of the game whatsoever.
But I'm done feeding a troll like you. Arguing with Terran fanboys is similar arguing with someone who still believes Earth is flat. But feel free and carry on with the rest of your crew.
It's a bad thing to brag about one's own skill so i will do it for luolis, he is about gm level and was available to vote for in the recent nation wars polls for finland. You on the other hand are a new account with 18 posts. I wonder who we'll give more credence based on these informations in general :O
Many EU Terran shamelessly whine on their own streams against Protoss being broken, Inno usually whines about Terran being underpowered before steamrolling everyone(and we know Inno tends to win when Terran is in a good state, unlike Maru for example); playing at the highest level doesn't necessarily make people objective when it comes to balance.
On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote: [quote]
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
Funny how you only list all the terran builds that were nerfed, but not mention any of the toss/zerg builds that were nerf to the ground. Want me to list all the zerg/toss builds that were nerfed to the ground cause of the terran whine community?
Instead of complaining about it, Zerg/toss still found new builds and playstyle.
Like i said, Terran has no excuses not adapting and learning how to flank with ghost from different angles.
Parting was the first to show how powerful it was back in WOL days Zergs kinda figuring it out how to flank with infestor from behind. (against Hellion cyclone style) Yet Terran still bunch ghost with it's bio ball and emp from the front.
Terran whine community xD
I mean come on man your comments read like parody.
Similar to all your comments in this thread though.
Not sure if you were trolling or being serious, either way I did get a few chuckle from your posts lol.
Everytime I need a small laugh, I just need to read some terran fanboy post =)
I mean reading your comments kind of makes it obvious that you don't really know how starcraft 2 works on a fundamental level, which is why your ideas are kind of laughable. Combine that with an ego bigger than the sun and no self awareness and we have a nice cocktail. :D
You're also free to point out where i am wrong.
Actually you just proved my point more that most whiners such as yourself are Gold and has no knowledge of the game whatsoever.
But I'm done feeding a troll like you. Arguing with Terran fanboys is similar arguing with someone who still believes Earth is flat. But feel free and carry on with the rest of your crew.
It's a bad thing to brag about one's own skill so i will do it for luolis, he is about gm level and was available to vote for in the recent nation wars polls for finland. You on the other hand are a new account with 18 posts. I wonder who we'll give more credence based on these informations in general :O
Many EU Terran shamelessly whine on their own streams against Protoss being broken, Inno usually whines about Terran being underpowered before steamrolling everyone(and we know Inno tends to win when Terran is in a good state, unlike Maru for example); playing at the highest level doesn't necessarily make people objective when it comes to balance.
I haven't really even argued balance in this thread. I mostly find the notion that Terrans are not as "imaginative" as Protosses and Zergs laughable.
On September 11 2019 00:36 BerserkSword wrote: [quote]
to be fair, he said terran players don't adapt/evolve compared to protoss and zerg players.
And I'm inclined to agree.
Look at 2019 for example. Protoss and zerg were met with massive nerfs.
Protoss lategame was obliterated (carriers turned to garbage with the loss of graviton catapult, Tempests were temporarily when they exchanged durability for speed, but then nerfed into the ground when they lost most of the speed buff while still losing all that durability, and feedback was nerfed in half).
Zerg early and mid-game was decimated by the new creep dynamic (creep used to advance and recede at the same rate, now it recession rate is higher) and the transfuse nerf
Protoss pros developed insanely sharp timings to end the game before lategame.
Zerg pros developed a defensive "turtle" style that led to the feared broodlord + infestor compositions that have become very common compared to pre-creep/queen nerfs.
This is all thanks to the NERFS the races received.
Terran has received nothing but buffs but we have guys like innovation and maru standing there after winning more premier tournaments, talking about how the race is weak and underpowered.
Of course Terran play evolves to some extent. He was talking about relative to Protoss and Zerg though.
Gumiho is the closest to a Terran pro that pushes the boundaries in terms of innovation. Maru is up there too of course, but when you compare him to stats or dark for example, the dynamism isnt on the same level.
Thank you, finally someone who can understand.
I never said terran players were garbage. They just never adapt/evolve their playstyle.
E.G. In HOTS Toss/zergs were forced to learn and improve their splitting due to Mines (One of the most cancer unit in HOTS)
It’s hard to adapt or inovate when any build that strays to far from the norm is nerfed into the ground. Consider the following list of nerfs Terran got as they came up with new builds:
16 marine drop: zerg queen range buffed killing the build at higher levels of play.
Mass raven mech: seeker missle removed from the game.
Proxy cyclone build: cyclone reverted to lock on version killing all proxy cyclone builds.
BC rush, yamotoe cannon nerfed tuning the build fown to the point it’s rarely seen at a professional level any more.
Compare this to zerg who have had only one playstyle killing nerf recently: ultra armor nerfed, and one nerf that weekend but did not kill a style, hydra upgrade split.
Why don’t terran’s inovate much, because whenever they do the style gets nerfed so hard that it’s killed off entirely. I can’t think of any nerfs outside ultra that have so radically destroyed a race’s entire game plan in an existing meta. Name a time recently that Zerg had a unit core to one of thier stratagies completely reworked? Name a time recently that Zerg has one of thier infinite value late game spells removed from the game?
If we go back even farther look at all the crazy nerfs in wings:
Terran invents 5 rax reaper, nerfed after heavy use in mlg.
MVP innovates ghost snipe late game nerfed into the ground after one tournament leading into years of bl infestor dominated games.
Jinro invents Thor mech with stuns, thor stun ability removed from the game.
Jee whiz I wonder why Terran don’t reshape the meta with innovative builds much? I also wonder why Terran expect the other races to receive nerfs to thier core strategies eventually?
Edit: this is probably the whinyist post I’ve ever written but seriously it’s so hypocritical to complain about a lack of inovation in Terran builds when anything that strays to far from the norm is nerfed not just into line but out of the game.
Funny how you only list all the terran builds that were nerfed, but not mention any of the toss/zerg builds that were nerf to the ground. Want me to list all the zerg/toss builds that were nerfed to the ground cause of the terran whine community?
Instead of complaining about it, Zerg/toss still found new builds and playstyle.
Like i said, Terran has no excuses not adapting and learning how to flank with ghost from different angles.
Parting was the first to show how powerful it was back in WOL days Zergs kinda figuring it out how to flank with infestor from behind. (against Hellion cyclone style) Yet Terran still bunch ghost with it's bio ball and emp from the front.
Terran whine community xD
I mean come on man your comments read like parody.
Similar to all your comments in this thread though.
Not sure if you were trolling or being serious, either way I did get a few chuckle from your posts lol.
Everytime I need a small laugh, I just need to read some terran fanboy post =)
I mean reading your comments kind of makes it obvious that you don't really know how starcraft 2 works on a fundamental level, which is why your ideas are kind of laughable. Combine that with an ego bigger than the sun and no self awareness and we have a nice cocktail. :D
You're also free to point out where i am wrong.
Actually you just proved my point more that most whiners such as yourself are Gold and has no knowledge of the game whatsoever.
But I'm done feeding a troll like you. Arguing with Terran fanboys is similar arguing with someone who still believes Earth is flat. But feel free and carry on with the rest of your crew.
It's a bad thing to brag about one's own skill so i will do it for luolis, he is about gm level and was available to vote for in the recent nation wars polls for finland. You on the other hand are a new account with 18 posts. I wonder who we'll give more credence based on these informations in general :O
Many EU Terran shamelessly whine on their own streams against Protoss being broken, Inno usually whines about Terran being underpowered before steamrolling everyone(and we know Inno tends to win when Terran is in a good state, unlike Maru for example); playing at the highest level doesn't necessarily make people objective when it comes to balance.
I never said it would, but that poster made some dumb statements about it being clear proof that luolis is a gold league player which is so easy to disprove that i had to go for it. In the end arguments matter, but it's pretty hard to really argue objectively about sc2 strats, it oftentimes comes down to experiences more than anything.
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
If anything I feel it’s the other way around, least I find it easier to babysit a Prism than staggered Templars, especially when trying to time a storm. I think partly that’s because you’re pre-actively planning a move vs reacting quickly to your opponent showing up in the right spot.
I was testing it a bit earlier, seems doable.
On the other hand in how it fits into the flow of a game, Hm. The only scenario I feel you’d ever want to sac medivacs and EMP drop is as a Hail Mary to try and nail all the Infestor energy in a TvZ.
Even assuming you can get the timing down, scan, find a corridor to boost through, drop and nail your EMPs, compositionally it’s going to be very awkward. I mean presumably a game scenario where you both have ghosts and medivacs and can spare them for such a move you probably have an edge anyway to win with a more conventional engagement.
Yeah my point about it is basically that controlling it would probably be less worth than just fighting conventionally. You still need to control your bio and if your APM is being spent on controlling a medivac dropping ghosts and then EMPing i think it's way too much focus on something that doesn't matter if your main army melts at the same time.
One problem for TvP for that is also that if protoss splits the HTs or has them in the prism, dropping ghosts from medivacs is kinda pointless because the main targets are unavailable to be hit.
The way Terran works, atleast with bio, is almost always the way that it's better to take a conventional engagement than micro one or two units in a different spot, because you almost have to babysit your main army.
But the whole discussion is kinda pointless. HeroMarine(I believe) did a ghost flank few days ago.
There were ghost flanks in the PvT before, that's why Templars are nowadays in the prism, ghosts were too dangerous.
It's just not present nowadays that much, which isn't that surprising considering many players stop using ghosts and before that it was mostly for the snipe.
I was specifically talking about medivac drop + ghosts in this post.
On a plus point if someone does do a ghost suicide medivac drop into EMPing all a Zerg’s Infestors to turn the tide one of those lategame stalemates it will be absolutely fucking sick
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
If anything I feel it’s the other way around, least I find it easier to babysit a Prism than staggered Templars, especially when trying to time a storm. I think partly that’s because you’re pre-actively planning a move vs reacting quickly to your opponent showing up in the right spot.
I was testing it a bit earlier, seems doable.
On the other hand in how it fits into the flow of a game, Hm. The only scenario I feel you’d ever want to sac medivacs and EMP drop is as a Hail Mary to try and nail all the Infestor energy in a TvZ.
Even assuming you can get the timing down, scan, find a corridor to boost through, drop and nail your EMPs, compositionally it’s going to be very awkward. I mean presumably a game scenario where you both have ghosts and medivacs and can spare them for such a move you probably have an edge anyway to win with a more conventional engagement.
Yeah my point about it is basically that controlling it would probably be less worth than just fighting conventionally. You still need to control your bio and if your APM is being spent on controlling a medivac dropping ghosts and then EMPing i think it's way too much focus on something that doesn't matter if your main army melts at the same time.
One problem for TvP for that is also that if protoss splits the HTs or has them in the prism, dropping ghosts from medivacs is kinda pointless because the main targets are unavailable to be hit.
The way Terran works, atleast with bio, is almost always the way that it's better to take a conventional engagement than micro one or two units in a different spot, because you almost have to babysit your main army.
But the whole discussion is kinda pointless. HeroMarine(I believe) did a ghost flank few days ago.
There were ghost flanks in the PvT before, that's why Templars are nowadays in the prism, ghosts were too dangerous.
It's just not present nowadays that much, which isn't that surprising considering many players stop using ghosts and before that it was mostly for the snipe.
I was specifically talking about medivac drop + ghosts in this post.
On a plus point if someone does do a ghost suicide medivac drop into EMPing all a Zerg’s Infestors to turn the tide one of those lategame stalemates it will be absolutely fucking sick
Yeah it would, but i think it requires more than 4 emps to disable all infestors anyway
Thor + Ghosts will never work to well, because you need 3-3 bio 3-3 mech + 3(-3) air for lategame, while zerg needs 3 melee + 3-3 air. So it is like 15 upgrades on terran side and 9 on zerg and I dont count the unit/spell upgrades, because I dont know how many zerg needs, but I think terran needs more.
On September 12 2019 02:44 Na1d wrote: Thor + Ghosts will never work to well, because you need 3-3 bio 3-3 mech + 3(-3) air for lategame, while zerg needs 3 melee + 3-3 air. So it is like 15 upgrades on terran side and 9 on zerg and I dont count the unit/spell upgrades, because I dont know how many zerg needs, but I think terran needs more.
You definitely dont need 3 3 bio to use ghosts with thor..you have them for their spells which upgrades are completely irrelevant to.
On September 10 2019 13:58 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah tbh I really don't think we can say anything about the balance of late game ZvT at this point - there are easily 5 if not 7 or 8 Terrans out there of a higher class than any that we saw at WCS Fall - Soul, though not the best Eu Terran I would say certainly has the best late-game TvZ on EU - and he didn't make it to the playoffs to show his stuff (Looked very strong vs Namshar - but Drogo got him in the knockout bracket - didn't see his games vs. SortOf in group stage 2).
HeroMarine took Serral to the brink multiple games without what is looking like the ideal rounded out comp. He had a ton of Thor but not a single ghost - with that new EMP and cloak there are loads of opportunities to get ur infestors nullified - and if that had happened at any point in combo with those Thor he can A-move the Broodlords.
Mass Thor vs. Mass BL iso is hilarious to watch - you need like 30 BL to stand a chance - the infestors are hugely important - and now T has some counter play vs them.
I'm actually hyped to watch Maru/Ty (hopefully if Dark doesn't end him tonight) at Blizzcon utilizing this army comp against Zerg. It's sad there might only be 1 KR - Terran at Blizzcon when there are literally 3 to 4 players from WCS that you could argue are better than Inno/Gumi/Keen/Cure but it is what it is.
We'll still get to see it in Dark vs. TY tonight and Maru/Ragna tomorrow which will be a treat.
Serral v Maru dream is alive (HYPE) - I don't want to curse it but I'm really believing it's going to happen if blizzcon happens on current patch.
I mean, we do have one single sample. Maru vs Solar Game 1 from their first match in GSL (not the rematch in the decider), where BL/Infestor decisively beat mass Thor/Liberator/Ghost. Of course, it was only one game, but feel free to rewatch it and point out what Maru should have done differently. Once there's enough BLs to oneshot Thors (and remember they outrange Thors when you target), Terran is basically shit out of luck.
As Tasteless put it, "This was an illuminating game on the state of TvZ, Artosis. That's all I'm going to say about that."
I'll see your single game, and raise you a single game lmao.
PLEASE watch Maru vs. Ragna game 3 on King's Cove - if not to see exactly the tactics I described with ghosts (no thors but vs fully rounded BL/Infestor late game) - then only to WITNESS Maru actually go super-saiyan. I have not got the nerd chills like watching that game in a while - JFC lets go boys - blizzcon battle of the GODS incoming - godzilla vs king kong LETS GO
On September 12 2019 03:07 Na1d wrote: yeah sorry forgot that ghosts spawn with +20 armor and snipe is an instant cast
and even if u manage to kill bl infestor with thor + ghost u will just die to ling remax
so basically - because your argument made no sense you're scrapping it and throwing a couple new ones out there - touche my friend touche - you would fit right in with the current executive branch ;D
Maru twice in g3 had complete EMP on all infestors in the late game and still didnt engage zerg army. He elected to continue to bleed out zerg mining bases and prevent the zerg from creating a bank
Why?
Because even Broodlord is still massively OP vs thor/ghost composition
Contrast this with g1 vs Solar
Maru was forced to use his nukes defensively and couldnt stop Solar from creating a bank.
---------
IMO
Not only is Broodlord/infestor too OP, Vipers, Swarm & swarmhost damage vs buildings is also way too OP.
I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage). And/or you just nerf broodling damage. Both would force zerg into a situation where broodlords cant be successfully massed to create game ending situations. They'll have to remix the endgame army composition.
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
If anything I feel it’s the other way around, least I find it easier to babysit a Prism than staggered Templars, especially when trying to time a storm. I think partly that’s because you’re pre-actively planning a move vs reacting quickly to your opponent showing up in the right spot.
I was testing it a bit earlier, seems doable.
On the other hand in how it fits into the flow of a game, Hm. The only scenario I feel you’d ever want to sac medivacs and EMP drop is as a Hail Mary to try and nail all the Infestor energy in a TvZ.
Even assuming you can get the timing down, scan, find a corridor to boost through, drop and nail your EMPs, compositionally it’s going to be very awkward. I mean presumably a game scenario where you both have ghosts and medivacs and can spare them for such a move you probably have an edge anyway to win with a more conventional engagement.
Yeah my point about it is basically that controlling it would probably be less worth than just fighting conventionally. You still need to control your bio and if your APM is being spent on controlling a medivac dropping ghosts and then EMPing i think it's way too much focus on something that doesn't matter if your main army melts at the same time.
One problem for TvP for that is also that if protoss splits the HTs or has them in the prism, dropping ghosts from medivacs is kinda pointless because the main targets are unavailable to be hit.
The way Terran works, atleast with bio, is almost always the way that it's better to take a conventional engagement than micro one or two units in a different spot, because you almost have to babysit your main army.
But the whole discussion is kinda pointless. HeroMarine(I believe) did a ghost flank few days ago.
There were ghost flanks in the PvT before, that's why Templars are nowadays in the prism, ghosts were too dangerous.
It's just not present nowadays that much, which isn't that surprising considering many players stop using ghosts and before that it was mostly for the snipe.
I was specifically talking about medivac drop + ghosts in this post.
On a plus point if someone does do a ghost suicide medivac drop into EMPing all a Zerg’s Infestors to turn the tide one of those lategame stalemates it will be absolutely fucking sick
I don't think it would be better than the hunter-seeker on the own medevac speeding into the enemy
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
All these units that send more units are pretty unfair. Completely nullifies tanks and even turn their strength against them in ff with minimal effort.
The whole broodlord redesign discussion probably has its own long-dead thread somewhere in strategy.
This interview was really good and it's nice to see Serral positive about the chances of the non-Koreans carrying their GSL v World success over to Blizzcon. We'll have to see if the optimism translates into results or if this recent trend is something of a statistical anomaly.
Great interview and well done! I love when you guys give us the players perspective on the state of the game! Also really appreciate Serral being open on Zerg and the game in general. I for one would enjoy a late game victory more over a Zerg player knowing their power spike is up and they still lost.
On September 10 2019 11:46 alestormsabaton1994 wrote: BL/winfestors is the reason why sc2 went from an S tier e-sport to a C tier now.
If blizzard cant learn from history and take forever to fix that imbalance the game is gone for good.
User was warned for this post.
I took a long break from watching SC2 and i have to say, i don't know anything about balance, but from an entertainment point of view, i was shocked to see Zerg late game be more or less the same mess that it was years and years ago when i stopped watching.
Good interview though and thanks for taking the time to do it.
On September 11 2019 19:06 Luolis wrote: I would say medivac drop + EMP combo isn't practical in any case. Way too much APM for fairly low gains.
Ghost flanks might work, but i'm spectical again about how much APM it requires and atleast vs Z they feel pretty impractical considering how many ghosts you need for the flank to actually get the energy off of the infestors.
If anything I feel it’s the other way around, least I find it easier to babysit a Prism than staggered Templars, especially when trying to time a storm. I think partly that’s because you’re pre-actively planning a move vs reacting quickly to your opponent showing up in the right spot.
I was testing it a bit earlier, seems doable.
On the other hand in how it fits into the flow of a game, Hm. The only scenario I feel you’d ever want to sac medivacs and EMP drop is as a Hail Mary to try and nail all the Infestor energy in a TvZ.
Even assuming you can get the timing down, scan, find a corridor to boost through, drop and nail your EMPs, compositionally it’s going to be very awkward. I mean presumably a game scenario where you both have ghosts and medivacs and can spare them for such a move you probably have an edge anyway to win with a more conventional engagement.
Yeah my point about it is basically that controlling it would probably be less worth than just fighting conventionally. You still need to control your bio and if your APM is being spent on controlling a medivac dropping ghosts and then EMPing i think it's way too much focus on something that doesn't matter if your main army melts at the same time.
One problem for TvP for that is also that if protoss splits the HTs or has them in the prism, dropping ghosts from medivacs is kinda pointless because the main targets are unavailable to be hit.
The way Terran works, atleast with bio, is almost always the way that it's better to take a conventional engagement than micro one or two units in a different spot, because you almost have to babysit your main army.
But the whole discussion is kinda pointless. HeroMarine(I believe) did a ghost flank few days ago.
There were ghost flanks in the PvT before, that's why Templars are nowadays in the prism, ghosts were too dangerous.
It's just not present nowadays that much, which isn't that surprising considering many players stop using ghosts and before that it was mostly for the snipe.
I was specifically talking about medivac drop + ghosts in this post.
On a plus point if someone does do a ghost suicide medivac drop into EMPing all a Zerg’s Infestors to turn the tide one of those lategame stalemates it will be absolutely fucking sick
I don't think it would be better than the hunter-seeker on the own medevac speeding into the enemy
True, that was awesome and god bless Bomber, although mass hunter-seekers still cause me to wake in a cold sweat. Still I’ve been waiting for something new in a highlight reel.
Squirtle’s Archon toilet was definitely up there, but the move was still relatively novel (it was ultimately silly) and it was a weird set with a never seen composition in a GSL final.
All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need. Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is: 1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran. 2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need. Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is: 1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran. 2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
I’m OK with multiple Nyduses personally, the near instant unload is what feels off to me. As it stands it’s a matter of killing it before it pops, or everything is in your base or expansion, feels wonky as hell.
Nyduses that units trickle out of you could spare a small group of units to deal with if it’s placed too aggressively, or Zergs could push them further back and build their forces before moving in.
There’s plenty one could tweak, make them more like in BW or whatever too.
I quite like the idea of Zerg having to outmanoeuvre everything and be constantly active in that sense. But to me lategame Nydus is just a bit too potent. I think most people (not all ofc) want to see a more swarmy, flank and counter-attack oriented Zerg than the BL/Infestor variant, and I think having some kind of viable late game Nydus play is going to have to exist to enable that.
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units?
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units?
I would love to see Thors walking over ultras just for the fun of it !
On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need. Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is: 1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran. 2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
So it s clearly about contains expansion, ie contains creep spreading....
It s not complicated to identify the problem concerning creep tumours.
On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need. Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is: 1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran. 2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
So it s clearly about contains expansion, ie contains creep spreading....
It s not complicated to identify the problem concerning creep tumours.
TL garbage...
User was temp banned for this post.
It amuses me that a guy named Vision hates creep tumours so much
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units?
Gotta give it some nice, tall legs first to prevent clipping.
On September 10 2019 17:27 tigon_ridge wrote: Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be...unless you're gonna try to make early-mid-game equal as well, which is impossible. Perfect balance in all stages of the game for all non-mirror MUs is never gonna happen. Trying to attempt the impossible will likely only introduce more problems than solutions.
Sure, but that means we need some maps that allow T and P to play to their strengths, not just giant maps that allow Zerg to get to lategame without much issue.
On September 10 2019 17:27 tigon_ridge wrote: Lategame zerg deserves to have an advantage over T and P. Stop trying to make it equal. It shouldn't be...unless you're gonna try to make early-mid-game equal as well, which is impossible. Perfect balance in all stages of the game for all non-mirror MUs is never gonna happen. Trying to attempt the impossible will likely only introduce more problems than solutions.
Sure, but that means we need some maps that allow T and P to play to their strengths, not just giant maps that allow Zerg to get to lategame without much issue.
I think this has been an acknowledged given since the end of wol. they are the best reactive race because of larva mechanic and have the best defensive/scouting options in the late game (outside of mass scans in some instances). the real problem is the fedora
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units?
I would love to see Thors walking over ultras just for the fun of it !
Can a Collosus actually walk over a Thor or a Ultra? o.O
I honestly don't know, mostly because if you see those units on one screen, one is running away from the other ^^
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units?
I would love to see Thors walking over ultras just for the fun of it !
Can a Collosus actually walk over a Thor or a Ultra? o.O
I honestly don't know, mostly because if you see those units on one screen, one is running away from the other ^^
I swear I saw a collosus walk over an ultra before, can't walk over supply depot and pylon tho (Blizz pls). And also pheonix should be able to target a spire that thing is a 1000 feets in the air.
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units?
I would love to see Thors walking over ultras just for the fun of it !
Can a Collosus actually walk over a Thor or a Ultra? o.O
I honestly don't know, mostly because if you see those units on one screen, one is running away from the other ^^
On September 12 2019 11:48 celes8 wrote: I think the simplest way out of this problem is to fix broodlings. Either they dont have the ability to body block, which would remove the huge standoff ability that zerg has against engaging BL/infestor (meaning, the broodlings blocking make it impossible for terran/protoss army to engage).
Thats just terrible Non colliding broodlings would stack on top of each other. Every broodling could be in the same position, creating a single supermassive damage spike at that location. Like a tide of broodlings, just all attacking the same target at the same time.
If you want to cobtribute, at least think through what you are suggesting.
How about the Thor, because it is so damn big, can just do it collosus style and walk over other units?
I would love to see Thors walking over ultras just for the fun of it !
Can a Collosus actually walk over a Thor or a Ultra? o.O
I honestly don't know, mostly because if you see those units on one screen, one is running away from the other ^^
I swear I saw a collosus walk over an ultra before, can't walk over supply depot and pylon tho (Blizz pls). And also pheonix should be able to target a spire that thing is a 1000 feets in the air.
lol the spire thing. true. a spire should be like 12000 feet in the air i dont get out aa units cant hit it
On September 17 2019 14:14 StarcraftSquall wrote: Anybody else notice he only mentioned EU players...? Even though he’s constantly said Neeb is one of his hardest opponents. Region bias perhaps? 👀
SpeCial isn't an EU player. I don't think it means anything that he didn't mention neeb this time.
"And that's how we know success has changed Serral: he refuses to name his practice partners when he would have gone through all of them one by one last year."
Who were his past practice partners? And can you point me to the interview? Much thanks!
On September 18 2019 05:14 texture13 wrote: "And that's how we know success has changed Serral: he refuses to name his practice partners when he would have gone through all of them one by one last year."
Who were his past practice partners? And can you point me to the interview? Much thanks!
Only one I can recall 100%, as it was mentioned on Artosis and NoRegret’s excellent ‘In Depth’ show was soul.
On September 18 2019 05:14 texture13 wrote: "And that's how we know success has changed Serral: he refuses to name his practice partners when he would have gone through all of them one by one last year."
Who were his past practice partners? And can you point me to the interview? Much thanks!
Only one I can recall 100%, as it was mentioned on Artosis and NoRegret’s excellent ‘In Depth’ show was soul.
On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need. Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is: 1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran. 2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
I’m OK with multiple Nyduses personally, the near instant unload is what feels off to me. As it stands it’s a matter of killing it before it pops, or everything is in your base or expansion, feels wonky as hell.
Nyduses that units trickle out of you could spare a small group of units to deal with if it’s placed too aggressively, or Zergs could push them further back and build their forces before moving in.
There’s plenty one could tweak, make them more like in BW or whatever too.
I quite like the idea of Zerg having to outmanoeuvre everything and be constantly active in that sense. But to me lategame Nydus is just a bit too potent. I think most people (not all ofc) want to see a more swarmy, flank and counter-attack oriented Zerg than the BL/Infestor variant, and I think having some kind of viable late game Nydus play is going to have to exist to enable that.
I would tend to agree I have to say both playing as and against zerg in zvt I much more enjoy lategame Ultralisk armies with nydus counters, than the turtle slog of bl infestor late game. If anyone saw game 2 of Maru vs ragnorok in the gsl final it was so much more entertaining to see this style than bl infestor.
Zerg needs some way to inflict damage and leverage an advantage in the late game because of how tough it is to break a Terran player. I think most zerg and reasonable terran’s would agree with me on this. Otherwise Terran would be op due to the strength of thier defenses. It would be nice if bliz could give zerg a mechanism to do this that was not bl infestor. I think a lot of people zerg included just don’t find bl infestor late game that fun or interesting. And that’s the bottom line for me it’s not so much about the ballance but just how slow and boring the gameplay is when zerg reaches this composition. Granted if it were more ballanced it would hopefully lead to my desired result of late game zvt feeling dynamic and fun.
On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need. Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is: 1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran. 2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
I’m OK with multiple Nyduses personally, the near instant unload is what feels off to me. As it stands it’s a matter of killing it before it pops, or everything is in your base or expansion, feels wonky as hell.
Nyduses that units trickle out of you could spare a small group of units to deal with if it’s placed too aggressively, or Zergs could push them further back and build their forces before moving in.
There’s plenty one could tweak, make them more like in BW or whatever too.
I quite like the idea of Zerg having to outmanoeuvre everything and be constantly active in that sense. But to me lategame Nydus is just a bit too potent. I think most people (not all ofc) want to see a more swarmy, flank and counter-attack oriented Zerg than the BL/Infestor variant, and I think having some kind of viable late game Nydus play is going to have to exist to enable that.
I would tend to agree I have to say both playing as and against zerg in zvt I much more enjoy lategame Ultralisk armies with nydus counters, than the turtle slog of bl infestor late game. If anyone saw game 2 of Maru vs ragnorok in the gsl final it was so much more entertaining to see this style than bl infestor.
Zerg needs some way to inflict damage and leverage an advantage in the late game because of how tough it is to break a Terran player. I think most zerg and reasonable terran’s would agree with me on this. Otherwise Terran would be op due to the strength of thier defenses. It would be nice if bliz could give zerg a mechanism to do this that was not bl infestor. I think a lot of people zerg included just don’t find bl infestor late game that fun or interesting. And that’s the bottom line for me it’s not so much about the ballance but just how slow and boring the gameplay is when zerg reaches this composition. Granted if it were more ballanced it would hopefully lead to my desired result of late game zvt feeling dynamic and fun.
I don't get the "slow and boring" part TBH. Terran can just pick apart Zerg's bases, either with MMM or with Cyclone/Hellion. There is almost never a need to fight head on into BL/Infestor.
On September 13 2019 20:53 MarianoSC2 wrote: All this talk and yet fixing BL range and limiting to 1 active nydus is everything we need. Either reduce range or put in the need for the BL to target actual units, not the ground. Thor, as a direct counter to BL should be able to outrange it (its not like the unit is good vs anything else anyway). Current situation is if the Zerg player micros correctly the Thors do very little against a unit that they are supposed to hard counter.
And Serrals point is very valid. Current state of the game is: 1) T and Z go into the late game even = Both play flawlessly, but Terran does not deny enough expansions and does not do enough damage = Auto loss for Terran. 2) T does enough damage and denies expansions so that Z goes into the late game with weaker economy and does not build the bank. In addition to this, T needs to be non-stop aggressive, because otherwise Zerg will have time to setup non-stop nydus BS bonanza. In this situation if the Terran plays absolutely perfectly, and Z does a few mistakes in defending then T has a chance
Which I dont think is fair
I’m OK with multiple Nyduses personally, the near instant unload is what feels off to me. As it stands it’s a matter of killing it before it pops, or everything is in your base or expansion, feels wonky as hell.
Nyduses that units trickle out of you could spare a small group of units to deal with if it’s placed too aggressively, or Zergs could push them further back and build their forces before moving in.
There’s plenty one could tweak, make them more like in BW or whatever too.
I quite like the idea of Zerg having to outmanoeuvre everything and be constantly active in that sense. But to me lategame Nydus is just a bit too potent. I think most people (not all ofc) want to see a more swarmy, flank and counter-attack oriented Zerg than the BL/Infestor variant, and I think having some kind of viable late game Nydus play is going to have to exist to enable that.
I would tend to agree I have to say both playing as and against zerg in zvt I much more enjoy lategame Ultralisk armies with nydus counters, than the turtle slog of bl infestor late game. If anyone saw game 2 of Maru vs ragnorok in the gsl final it was so much more entertaining to see this style than bl infestor.
Zerg needs some way to inflict damage and leverage an advantage in the late game because of how tough it is to break a Terran player. I think most zerg and reasonable terran’s would agree with me on this. Otherwise Terran would be op due to the strength of thier defenses. It would be nice if bliz could give zerg a mechanism to do this that was not bl infestor. I think a lot of people zerg included just don’t find bl infestor late game that fun or interesting. And that’s the bottom line for me it’s not so much about the ballance but just how slow and boring the gameplay is when zerg reaches this composition. Granted if it were more ballanced it would hopefully lead to my desired result of late game zvt feeling dynamic and fun.
I don't get the "slow and boring" part TBH. Terran can just pick apart Zerg's bases, either with MMM or with Cyclone/Hellion. There is almost never a need to fight head on into BL/Infestor.
There were periods where this dynamic made for very entertaining games, and still can to this day. When Protoss started using prisms and picking apart Zergs using this composition in Wings I found that more of an enjoyable macro lategame than the timing attacks we often saw.
Just as now, in that era it was brief and Zergs just got better at not being picked apart and forcing you to eventually have to engage a composition you couldn’t kill.
I do agree that slow doesn’t necessarily equal boring here. Brood War mech is slow and methodical but it’s great to watch.
I think one of the problems is that the comp is relatively quick to obtain vs the above, it’s insanely cost efficient and it’s difficult to trade against even with a big eco advantage.
Zergs can posture and move their static D and eventually force you to have to engage their army, and it can become an all or nothing proposition. You don’t have that many games I can remember where you’re just trading well and eventually win, eventually you sort of need to be able to kill that army, and if you don’t they wipe yours out. Other TvZ comps trading is a big factor and it forces engagements all over the map where either side can gain incremental advantages. TvT tank lines are slow and scary too, but you can make comebacks in all sorts of ways by positional play, micro or better tactical decisions.
As you say I don’t think it’s the slow nature that’s boring or frustrating to people generally, I think it’s having that looming dread of eventually having to kill that composition
All this discussion is clever and interesting and it s important cause most of players here agree with this statement (and i believe this forum is the place where tons of players always disagree, and where most of them doesn t constantly emphasize if they are agree) :
I think one of the problems is that the comp is relatively quick to obtain vs the above, it’s insanely cost efficient and it’s difficult to trade against even with a big eco advantage.
Larva injection is define as a mecanism while it should be named as a random specificity.. Why limits "up to 19 larvas" ? why not up to 18, up to 20 ? Regarding large, normal, small maps ?
Is it enought flexible as a mecanism ? I don t think so
It s not reasonnable to gather minerals at this point, cause you have enought money and larva to obtain cost efficient trade. At this point, it s just a matter of time.. which doesn t fit to something strategic.
Here is the wound that make SC2 going to dark days, here is the limit which could be cross over comparing to Brood War, and what kills the licence..