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France12794 Posts
On August 16 2019 02:16 La1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 01:17 parksonsc wrote:
Then explain to me about his 4 GSL wins? Did all his opponent not know how to study him? Come on, even if you are a hater, Maru's play is truly godlike when he's on point. you watch some of those games back and honestly it doesn't look like they do. or to be honest at least 2 of his GSLs were vs a lot of protoss when the proxy rax/cyclone thing was around which was actually impossible to play against and was really coin-flippy. I remember him beating neeb with just maruders in another proxy as you couldn't confirm which Proxy version of the proxy it was. I also think it's easier to win GSLs now as you get to move people in the group which to me basically means your vs the two worst players so you basically get a bye to the RO8. He clearly is an amazing player and has some of the best micro in the game but it's nice to see what i consider gimicky stuff get crushed. hes a Patch Terran 
Actually he is the one Terran who can win on shit patches.
Not this time though.
INno is the Terran who win when Terran is strong
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All this talk about Maru being bad now is ridiculous. This is just TvP
on the current patch vs a top protoss who doesn't make huge mistakes. Yeah TY beat Stats at homestory cup a month ago but Stats just looked terrible that day. He said he would be drinking heavily which makes sense since it's homestory cup. It wasn't the same Stats that won Asus last weekend and destroyed Maru today. Maru is still the best XvZ player in the world and is top 3 in TvT. There are no good TvP players at the moment. If TY beats Serral he will get crushed by Trap.
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On August 16 2019 02:33 JJH777 wrote:
All this talk about Maru being bad now is ridiculous. This is just TvP
on the current patch vs a top protoss who doesn't make huge mistakes. Yeah TY beat Stats at homestory cup a month ago but Stats just looked terrible that day. He said he would be drinking heavily which makes sense since it's homestory cup. It wasn't the same Stats that won Asus last weekend and destroyed Maru today. Maru is still the best XvZ player in the world and is top 3 in TvT. There are no good TvP players at the moment. If TY beats Serral he will get crushed by Trap.
I highly doubt that; In the same patches, Maru was both building his consecutive Code S titles mainly on his TvP prowess and being eliminated from weekenders by Protoss only(Inno being the exception at WESG 2018).
Also, TvP hasn't been especially Protoss favored of recent with both Stats and Classic having their worst results in PvT this year.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 16 2019 01:07 AttackZerg wrote:
Oh... and to voting that scandalized so many of you.
I said, "Elazer better show and up play well because he earned a lot of anti fans".
He showed up and beat the (imo) number 2 zerg in the world. Gotta say I'm impressed.
I now hope he parlays this into an incredible result.
I think he is one of the most interesting zerg players around, let's see if he has the dragon blood to keep going.
Yeah, but had he faced any other race than Zerg he would have been out, so let's be fair here  Maybe not against Fanta 
On August 16 2019 02:31 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 02:16 La1 wrote:On August 16 2019 01:17 parksonsc wrote:
Then explain to me about his 4 GSL wins? Did all his opponent not know how to study him? Come on, even if you are a hater, Maru's play is truly godlike when he's on point. you watch some of those games back and honestly it doesn't look like they do. or to be honest at least 2 of his GSLs were vs a lot of protoss when the proxy rax/cyclone thing was around which was actually impossible to play against and was really coin-flippy. I remember him beating neeb with just maruders in another proxy as you couldn't confirm which Proxy version of the proxy it was. I also think it's easier to win GSLs now as you get to move people in the group which to me basically means your vs the two worst players so you basically get a bye to the RO8. He clearly is an amazing player and has some of the best micro in the game but it's nice to see what i consider gimicky stuff get crushed. hes a Patch Terran Actually he is the one Terran who can win on shit patches. Not this time though. INno is the Terran who win when Terran is strong
Even when Maru was playing godlike in GSL he didn't deliver outside of Code S. Not even on the day1 where the preparational argument cannot be made as he had the time to prepare... so either he doesn't care or there's a mental issue.
On August 16 2019 02:16 La1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 01:17 parksonsc wrote:
Then explain to me about his 4 GSL wins? Did all his opponent not know how to study him? Come on, even if you are a hater, Maru's play is truly godlike when he's on point. you watch some of those games back and honestly it doesn't look like they do. or to be honest at least 2 of his GSLs were vs a lot of protoss when the proxy rax/cyclone thing was around which was actually impossible to play against and was really coin-flippy. I remember him beating neeb with just maruders in another proxy as you couldn't confirm which Proxy version of the proxy it was. I also think it's easier to win GSLs now as you get to move people in the group which to me basically means your vs the two worst players so you basically get a bye to the RO8. He clearly is an amazing player and has some of the best micro in the game but it's nice to see what i consider gimicky stuff get crushed. hes a Patch Terran
Uh, he won 4 consecutive Code S titles during several patches, the patch word cannot be used (he won the last one after the major afterBlizzcon patch either...)
You still have to go through RO8/4/Finals. So the easier argument is iffy, also he had to win the first Code S to get the right to move people around, he had to qualify for the first won WESG(through the Korean qualifier)... but sure, it's easier.
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Does anyone here beside me think if Koreans have the team support they used to get, they would play a lot better than they currently do? Coaches, teammates, they all play a role.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 16 2019 02:46 geokilla wrote:
Does anyone here beside me think if Koreans have the team support they used to get, they would play a lot better than they currently do? Coaches, teammates, they all play a role.
Maybe it's the lack of overseers that would force them to train and kept their regime under control?
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Northern Ireland25099 Posts
On August 16 2019 02:49 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 02:46 geokilla wrote:
Does anyone here beside me think if Koreans have the team support they used to get, they would play a lot better than they currently do? Coaches, teammates, they all play a role. Maybe it's the lack of overseers that would force them to train and kept their regime under control?
I mean it might help.
A lot of players prospered in more relaxed environments and enjoyed them, although they had the initial team house grind to build them up in the first place.
Plus players help each other out all the time, things aren’t as locked down to within teams which can help a lot too.
People who went through that system seem to be perfectly able to maintain their level, or close to it. The problem is the lack of Korean tournaments, plus the team houses are really stifling the development of the next generation of players, at least as results seem to show.
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Lol koreans embarrassing. Good thing we had a KR vs KR so at least we get one through
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Northern Ireland25099 Posts
Also I mean it’s one series, let’s not go overboard on Maru.
Maru plays a style that to me is often really fragile, high risk moves and hyper aggressive, but if he’s on form he just ekes out so many little advantages over the game and makes even the best PvT players look inferior in the matchup. If he’s off all the little gains he usually make don’t come off and he can look like he’s playing much worse than he is.
Some of his moves were pretty decent today, he did a neat flank to catch Stats’ stalkers and whatnot.
Stats also played rather well today, his target fire was really good throughout, its less obvious and flashy than Terran micro but if you really pay attention it really adds up over multiple engagements.
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On August 16 2019 02:46 geokilla wrote:
Does anyone here beside me think if Koreans have the team support they used to get, they would play a lot better than they currently do? Coaches, teammates, they all play a role.
Not just that dude. Steady income. That makes staying a pro worth it even if things aren't going amazingly in tournaments for you for a time. The top players have kept playing but over the years we've lost most of the "faceless Koreans who can't do anything in Korea but still dominate everyone at Dreamhack" crowd. Those guys were important to keep the level of practice high.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 16 2019 03:11 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 02:49 deacon.frost wrote:On August 16 2019 02:46 geokilla wrote:
Does anyone here beside me think if Koreans have the team support they used to get, they would play a lot better than they currently do? Coaches, teammates, they all play a role. Maybe it's the lack of overseers that would force them to train and kept their regime under control? I mean it might help. A lot of players prospered in more relaxed environments and enjoyed them, although they had the initial team house grind to build them up in the first place. Plus players help each other out all the time, things aren’t as locked down to within teams which can help a lot too. People who went through that system seem to be perfectly able to maintain their level, or close to it. The problem is the lack of Korean tournaments, plus the team houses are really stifling the development of the next generation of players, at least as results seem to show.
There's a reason why so many successfull organizations use tight regime and not freedom. While tight regime kills creativity, it helps where you need just to be really fucking good - e.g. sports.
Also I think it was QXC who touched this subject and he said something very mind blowing - living in the (proper) teamhouse gives you more time to play. Because you don't have to shop, you don't have to cook, you don't have to... etc. Not sure how much accurate it was but thinking about it - makes sense. All these small things take the time away which could have been used for something more useful(e.g. regeneration, so you're not 100 % of the time playing)
On August 16 2019 03:11 Need wrote:
Lol koreans embarrassing. Good thing we had a KR vs KR so at least we get one through
soO was expected by many, so the only surprise is the Dark game. Don't get why people write this shit... even TL writers were expecting TIME to advance...
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For most of the people it's just a taunt and it is a wrong statement anyway but it can be useful for you to understand how infuriating can it be when people keep spamming senseless and false evaluations regarding certain players or groups of players.
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On August 16 2019 02:46 geokilla wrote:
Does anyone here beside me think if Koreans have the team support they used to get, they would play a lot better than they currently do? Coaches, teammates, they all play a role.
That is the only reason Koreans always were better. You had a few natural talents that got really good without big teams supporting them like Byun for example but now players have more freedom even if in a "team" to do what they want so the practice they get is less efficient.
But I still think Koreans are better at getting in good practise then the foreign scene.
And you still have teams like Greenwings which has the best players in Korea a lot of the time.
Also Korean server has a higher number of skilled players playing which helps.
If the foreign scene had its own tournament like GSL and same quality teams and practise as koreans its just a question of the individual.
These things are a bit closer now which is why the skill gap is closer
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On August 16 2019 02:43 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 01:07 AttackZerg wrote:
Oh... and to voting that scandalized so many of you.
I said, "Elazer better show and up play well because he earned a lot of anti fans".
He showed up and beat the (imo) number 2 zerg in the world. Gotta say I'm impressed.
I now hope he parlays this into an incredible result.
I think he is one of the most interesting zerg players around, let's see if he has the dragon blood to keep going. Yeah, but had he faced any other race than Zerg he would have been out, so let's be fair here Maybe not against Fanta Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 02:31 Poopi wrote:On August 16 2019 02:16 La1 wrote:On August 16 2019 01:17 parksonsc wrote:
Then explain to me about his 4 GSL wins? Did all his opponent not know how to study him? Come on, even if you are a hater, Maru's play is truly godlike when he's on point. you watch some of those games back and honestly it doesn't look like they do. or to be honest at least 2 of his GSLs were vs a lot of protoss when the proxy rax/cyclone thing was around which was actually impossible to play against and was really coin-flippy. I remember him beating neeb with just maruders in another proxy as you couldn't confirm which Proxy version of the proxy it was. I also think it's easier to win GSLs now as you get to move people in the group which to me basically means your vs the two worst players so you basically get a bye to the RO8. He clearly is an amazing player and has some of the best micro in the game but it's nice to see what i consider gimicky stuff get crushed. hes a Patch Terran Actually he is the one Terran who can win on shit patches. Not this time though. INno is the Terran who win when Terran is strong Even when Maru was playing godlike in GSL he didn't deliver outside of Code S. Not even on the day1 where the preparational argument cannot be made as he had the time to prepare... so either he doesn't care or there's a mental issue. Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 02:16 La1 wrote:On August 16 2019 01:17 parksonsc wrote:
Then explain to me about his 4 GSL wins? Did all his opponent not know how to study him? Come on, even if you are a hater, Maru's play is truly godlike when he's on point. you watch some of those games back and honestly it doesn't look like they do. or to be honest at least 2 of his GSLs were vs a lot of protoss when the proxy rax/cyclone thing was around which was actually impossible to play against and was really coin-flippy. I remember him beating neeb with just maruders in another proxy as you couldn't confirm which Proxy version of the proxy it was. I also think it's easier to win GSLs now as you get to move people in the group which to me basically means your vs the two worst players so you basically get a bye to the RO8. He clearly is an amazing player and has some of the best micro in the game but it's nice to see what i consider gimicky stuff get crushed. hes a Patch Terran Uh, he won 4 consecutive Code S titles during several patches, the patch word cannot be used (he won the last one after the major afterBlizzcon patch either...) You still have to go through RO8/4/Finals. So the easier argument is iffy, also he had to win the first Code S to get the right to move people around, he had to qualify for the first won WESG(through the Korean qualifier)... but sure, it's easier.
Except when he won this year's chinese invitational or when he won WESG last year. The fact that he went ro8 and ro4 at blizzcon and katowice last year (eliminated by two of his teanmates) also begs to disagree with you. Lets face it winning 4 GSL in a row makes that or you win a tournament or you are overhyped/out of shape/bad/your results were a fluke or whatever. But the fact that no other, besides Serral, is taken in such high standarts speaks for his skills. Also people here act like if Stats was not the fucking best protoss of LOTV or something. And stats is on fire right now.
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France12794 Posts
On August 16 2019 03:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
Also I mean it’s one series, let’s not go overboard on Maru.
Maru plays a style that to me is often really fragile, high risk moves and hyper aggressive, but if he’s on form he just ekes out so many little advantages over the game and makes even the best PvT players look inferior in the matchup. If he’s off all the little gains he usually make don’t come off and he can look like he’s playing much worse than he is.
Some of his moves were pretty decent today, he did a neat flank to catch Stats’ stalkers and whatnot.
Stats also played rather well today, his target fire was really good throughout, its less obvious and flashy than Terran micro but if you really pay attention it really adds up over multiple engagements.
I said before the tournament that it was weird to give Maru the edge in the predictions since it was played before the patch.
Plus it wasn’t in a GSL playoff so at best Maru would have won 1 game.
At least Elazer showed that he deserved to be there and that’s fucking great.
TIME proved that his great play vs Serral wasn’t a fluke, and that abusing the map layout was a good strategy (1st map).
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Neeb's game 5 vs showtime was a PvP masterclass, he just picked the absolute perfect build, and tailored it to what he was seeing flawlessly. Neeb just made better adjustments over the course of the series and read his opponent perfectly.
Also that Elazer VS Dark series was bonkers, we got the full 5 games but felt like Dark spotted him a lead with that game 1 cheese.
Casting and everything else has been on point too. Can't wait for tonight's matches.
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Even knowing the result going in ... game 5 was a feat.
In all the wildness, he formulated and executed 3 seperate attacks where he completely outclassed dark.
Btw anyone else see Darks 6(?) Instantaneous viper abducts while shooting biles?
Tense game.
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Bbbut my serral v maru narrative
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On August 16 2019 02:25 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 00:25 EXRNaRa wrote:On August 15 2019 23:42 alestormsabaton1994 wrote:
Every time I see how foreigners dominate koreans Im reminded of the sad state of sc2. I think the fact that tehy are dropping so many series vs foreigners is even more telling than the really low amount of viewers.
It's really sad. sc2 used to be my favorite game and I reached top 8 masters. But its been 3 years since I stopped playing.
Blizzard should just kill this game once for all, (like they are doing with all their games) and restart with a new rts franchise in a couple of years.
Its even sadder when you realize Blizzard killed their franchise themselves when they decided to ban all koreans from competing abroad years ago. 7 Posts and thats what you got to say? Get out of here. Please. I was never a fan of foreign StarCraft and most people would probably put me in the "korean elitist" corner, but your statement is just wrong on so many levels. Obv koreans got worse, but that's caused by the whole breakdown of the infrastructure and not that much else. No reason to "kill a game" because there are still a ton of people out there loving it and actively playing it. Three years of HoTS deeply instilled in many of you guys the idea foreigners can't be good at Sc2 and that inevitably it's a fault of koreans when they get defeated; this totally drives me mad. It's true that the infrastructure crumbled and the depth in scene was greatly reduced but the top players are there, are very strong, and as a whole they are still considerably ahead of foreigners. On the other hand, koreans are not untouchable gods anymore and the #32 b tier KR player would get absolutely demolished in WCS in 2019; also, there are a couple of aspects in which westerners are indeed ahead of koreans, that are ZvZ meta(Elazer is undoubtly a weaker player than Dark, still he was capable of winning, and that's only the last of many examples) and Serral, the outlier, who was noticeably ahead of top koreans last year and may still very well be the best player in the world right now. Both of these, as well as the upwards trend in viewers, were made possible by region lock that gave WCS enough time to develop without being strangled by an army of objectively superior koreans like they used to be; Legacy of the Void had indeed a part in this process by resetting the way sc2 was played and effectively reducing the gap in few months. WCS scene may be mature enough for the region lock to be at least partially softened in the near future.
foreigners obviously improved but you have to be delusional to think that the level of the korean scene is still as high as it was a few years back. There are no teamhouses anymore and a lot of players are way past their prime (Inno, soO, Zest, herO, sOs to name a few). It's definitely both, foreigners improving and koreans getting worse.
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On August 16 2019 05:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2019 02:25 Xain0n wrote:On August 16 2019 00:25 EXRNaRa wrote:On August 15 2019 23:42 alestormsabaton1994 wrote:
Every time I see how foreigners dominate koreans Im reminded of the sad state of sc2. I think the fact that tehy are dropping so many series vs foreigners is even more telling than the really low amount of viewers.
It's really sad. sc2 used to be my favorite game and I reached top 8 masters. But its been 3 years since I stopped playing.
Blizzard should just kill this game once for all, (like they are doing with all their games) and restart with a new rts franchise in a couple of years.
Its even sadder when you realize Blizzard killed their franchise themselves when they decided to ban all koreans from competing abroad years ago. 7 Posts and thats what you got to say? Get out of here. Please. I was never a fan of foreign StarCraft and most people would probably put me in the "korean elitist" corner, but your statement is just wrong on so many levels. Obv koreans got worse, but that's caused by the whole breakdown of the infrastructure and not that much else. No reason to "kill a game" because there are still a ton of people out there loving it and actively playing it. Three years of HoTS deeply instilled in many of you guys the idea foreigners can't be good at Sc2 and that inevitably it's a fault of koreans when they get defeated; this totally drives me mad. It's true that the infrastructure crumbled and the depth in scene was greatly reduced but the top players are there, are very strong, and as a whole they are still considerably ahead of foreigners. On the other hand, koreans are not untouchable gods anymore and the #32 b tier KR player would get absolutely demolished in WCS in 2019; also, there are a couple of aspects in which westerners are indeed ahead of koreans, that are ZvZ meta(Elazer is undoubtly a weaker player than Dark, still he was capable of winning, and that's only the last of many examples) and Serral, the outlier, who was noticeably ahead of top koreans last year and may still very well be the best player in the world right now. Both of these, as well as the upwards trend in viewers, were made possible by region lock that gave WCS enough time to develop without being strangled by an army of objectively superior koreans like they used to be; Legacy of the Void had indeed a part in this process by resetting the way sc2 was played and effectively reducing the gap in few months. WCS scene may be mature enough for the region lock to be at least partially softened in the near future. foreigners obviously improved but you have to be delusional to think that the level of the korean scene is still as high as it was a few years back. There are no teamhouses anymore and a lot of players are way past their prime (Inno, soO, Zest, herO, sOs to name a few). It's definitely both, foreigners improving and koreans getting worse.
Hm, I literally said that? I don't think, however, that top koreans are worse than they used to be and I don't agree that lots of players are WAY past their primes(soO won his biggest tournament in 2019, Inno beat both Maru and Serral to win WESG while the others you mentioned were super competitive the last time in 2017 even if herO is still playing at a very respectable level; you get Maru, Rogue and Trap in return, for example).
What you are stating now doesn't get on well with calling Maru's Code S streak the biggest achievement of all time or valuing his 2018 as high as you do if the korean scene weak as you make it to be.
I agree that Code S was harder in the past because it was denser and qualifying was a feat in itself but once you get to ro16 or ro8 the level is still very high.
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EPT
