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Northern Ireland25085 Posts
After Innovation was democratically (and hence correctly) anointed as the SC2 GOAT and I think consensus is that Flash is the Brood War GOAT it got me pondering as to who is the best overall player on average across the two games?
Weirdly enough it seems a rarely discussed topic, unless I’m looking in all the wrong places, thought it would stir some debate.
Flash and Jaedong were hall of famers in Brood War and had results in SC2 that would be considered pretty damn good for players not called Flash and Jaedong
Rain had a lot of hype around him as being one of the coming men in Brood War before the end of the Kespa era and never really got to fulfil that for reasons outside his control, switched to SC2 where he became the best Protoss if not the best overall player for periods, then switched back where he’s had fantastic results in the post-Kespa Brood War scene. Soulkey was in a vaguely similar boat to my knowledge.
Those are a few names that spring to mind given my relatively limited knowledge of BW talent.
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Either Rain or Soulkey. Of the really good brood war players only Jaedong can really claim to have been successful at Sc2, Flash had his moments but just wasn't incredible. Actually FantaSy could be in the running.
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It’s still Flash.
He’s won more championships in Brood War than anyone else in both games combined, and he did win an IEM and regularly performed well in GSL and Proleague in StarCraft II.
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On August 13 2019 06:29 Z3nith wrote:
Either Rain or Soulkey. Of the really good brood war players only Jaedong can really claim to have been successful at Sc2, Flash had his moments but just wasn't incredible. Actually FantaSy could be in the running.
Fantasy is still less successful than Flash in either game.
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Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On August 13 2019 06:29 Z3nith wrote:
Either Rain or Soulkey. Of the really good brood war players only Jaedong can really claim to have been successful at Sc2, Flash had his moments but just wasn't incredible. Actually FantaSy could be in the running.
Fantasy’s achievements thus far are less than what Flash was managing when he was in the scene. Flash won a tournament and made GSL Ro8 in his time, which is pretty decent if you compare to the current Terran pool nowadays.
The cool thing about Fantasy is he actively chose SC2 for a new challenge, he’s done military and he seems to be improving all the time, so I’m super interested to see what heights he can hit in SC2 given time.
Despite being salty about it being a vote, i am excited to see what he can bring to GSLvstW
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Flash or NaDa in BW, for sure.
I would vote for Rain overall, he was a very prominent player in Sc2 and he is the top Protoss in Brood War at the moment; no other player reached the same dimension in both of the games.
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It's still Flash. Maybe you can make an argument for Rain now but I don't think his legacy stands up
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Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On August 13 2019 07:28 Xain0n wrote:
Flash or NaDa in BW, for sure.
I would vote for Rain overall, he was a very prominent player in Sc2 and he is the top Protoss in Brood War at the moment; no other player reached the same dimension in both of the games.
Yeah I mean eras aside I think Rain can have a claim to have at one stage been the best player in both games, depends how we weight it I suppose.
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France12793 Posts
It’s kinda unfair because some players didn’t get the chance to play broodwar. Also in the foreign side the top players also came from a wc3 background, Stephano comes to mind.
So all in all it’s kinda pointless since Flash won a lot in BW and was decent at sc2, while Rain was better at sc2 and worse at BW but still in a good shape right now, best Protoss post post kespa switch?
Most sc2 goat contenders didn’t compete enough in BW (Maru...).
INno idk how promising he was in BW but he flourished in sc2 and didn’t came back.
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Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On August 13 2019 07:40 Poopi wrote:
It’s kinda unfair because some players didn’t get the chance to play broodwar. Also in the foreign side the top players also came from a wc3 background, Stephano comes to mind.
So all in all it’s kinda pointless since Flash won a lot in BW and was decent at sc2, while Rain was better at sc2 and worse at BW but still in a good shape right now, best Protoss post post kespa switch?
Most sc2 goat contenders didn’t compete enough in BW (Maru...).
INno idk how promising he was in BW but he flourished in sc2 and didn’t came back.
True but as discussions go it’s not really meant to be fair as it’s difficult to be so.
In current year not that many top foreigners have much of a WC3 background, they tend to be SC2 exclusive, or at least matured as players with SC2
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On August 13 2019 07:40 Poopi wrote:
Most sc2 goat contenders didn’t compete enough in BW (Maru...).
Only Maru, Life, and Taeja fall in here. Every other legendary sc2 player came from BW (Mvp, soO, Dark, sOs, Zest, Stats, Rogue, INno, TY, Soulkey, NesTea etc)
Of course most didn't peak until post kespa switch which isn't really there fault either.
But that will always happen when discussing GOAT accross multiple games. In counterstrike for example only f0rest, Neo, and GetRight are really contenders due to the fact all the other legendary players peaked in one game only, with many not even being pros during the 1.0-1.6 era.
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It would be rain and soulkey for me. They both dominated sc2 and bw with their own respective race. I bet bogus would be as good as them if he returned to bw after his period of domination but he did not.
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I think Rain has the strongest argument.
Starcraft2:
He was the best Protoss player during his SC2 time. Not only do his tournament results reflect this (GSL champ, SSL champ, OSL champ, WCS champ, etc.), but more importantly, his Proleague results indicate this as well (consistently winning against aces of other teams, notably Zest and herO of KT and CJ in clutch matches). The reason I put more weight on Proleague is because during the KesPa era of SC2, most top players took Proleague more seriously than even GSL itself. The team they played for was more important than their individual results. Look at the way FlaSh played in Proleague versus the way he played in individual tournaments. A practice God like him clearly indicated he cared more about the team tournaments.
Broodwar:
He is now currently the best Protoss in post-KesPa BW. This is indisputable. He is also likely the best PvPer in BW history (sorry Bisu). He has won a KSL and an ASL. Unfortunately, it can be argued that the competition has decreased drastically in BW, and that is definitely a knock against him compared the old legends like JD, FlaSh, Bisu, etc.
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I think rain would get my vote as well. He was incredibly dominating in sc2 when he was playing, more so than flash by a decent bit. And like SAFenix said, he is the best current protoss player in bw, at least for the next few days until bisu starts smacking kids around again.
Flash is still definitely in the running though. You just have to ask yourself if the amount flash is better than everyone else at broodwar makes up for how much worse he was at sc2 (he really wasn't that bad). I personally don't think it does but I wouldn't argue if someone claimed it did.
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It's hard to argue against FlaSh. 3 OSL titles. 3 MSL titles. 3 ASL titles. Proleague monster in BW (and not bad in SC2 except for that one losing streak). Plus IEM Toronto in SC2.
I feel too many underestimate FlaSh's play in SC2 in 2013 & 2014 and only remember his losing streak in 2015.
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Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On August 13 2019 08:41 jimminy_kriket wrote:
I think rain would get my vote as well. He was incredibly dominating in sc2 when he was playing, more so than flash by a decent bit. And like SAFenix said, he is the best current protoss player in bw, at least for the next few days until bisu starts smacking kids around again.
Flash is still definitely in the running though. You just have to ask yourself if the amount flash is better than everyone else at broodwar makes up for how much worse he was at sc2 (he really wasn't that bad). I personally don't think it does but I wouldn't argue if someone claimed it did.
Absolutely.
Flash is just so crazily good at Brood War that being merely rather good at SC2 may still have him come out top, depending on how you’re weighting it.
For me it’s Rain given I think he’s pretty much unique in being the best in the world at both, at some stage in his career. Bisu in his comeback AMA (translated gloriously by Jinjin) said that within SKT internal rankings he was 1 and Rain was running him close, so it does seem that if Kespa BW had continued he would have had a good shot and he was one of the unlucky ones whose time to shine was cut short there. I believe Bogus/Innovation was extremely highly rated too.
I think Flash is probably the best gamer there’s ever been given how hard BW is inherently, given how competitive the scene was and given how pre-eminent he was within his field, given it’s a 1v1 game and various other factors.
I’d still maybe give it to Rain on a combined metric of considering both BW and SC2 though
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Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On August 13 2019 08:41 jimminy_kriket wrote:
I think rain would get my vote as well. He was incredibly dominating in sc2 when he was playing, more so than flash by a decent bit. And like SAFenix said, he is the best current protoss player in bw, at least for the next few days until bisu starts smacking kids around again.
Flash is still definitely in the running though. You just have to ask yourself if the amount flash is better than everyone else at broodwar makes up for how much worse he was at sc2 (he really wasn't that bad). I personally don't think it does but I wouldn't argue if someone claimed it did.
To requote you again, not bad at all.
Flash was one of the best Terrans around in his time, he won a tournament, he placed high elsewhere, he did well in Proleague, he made GSL round of 8s and was still a relative new player to the scene.
He’s a better player from his accomplishments than most current Terrans all things considered, and really underrated as an SC2 player, the Flash name really weighs down what he actually managed to accomplish.
I think from memory besides GuMiho/TY/Inno/Maru Flash was the last Terran to win a big tournament
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On August 13 2019 09:18 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2019 08:41 jimminy_kriket wrote:
I think rain would get my vote as well. He was incredibly dominating in sc2 when he was playing, more so than flash by a decent bit. And like SAFenix said, he is the best current protoss player in bw, at least for the next few days until bisu starts smacking kids around again.
Flash is still definitely in the running though. You just have to ask yourself if the amount flash is better than everyone else at broodwar makes up for how much worse he was at sc2 (he really wasn't that bad). I personally don't think it does but I wouldn't argue if someone claimed it did. To requote you again, not bad at all. Flash was one of the best Terrans around in his time, he won a tournament, he placed high elsewhere, he did well in Proleague, he made GSL round of 8s and was still a relative new player to the scene. He’s a better player from his accomplishments than most current Terrans all things considered, and really underrated as an SC2 player, the Flash name really weighs down what he actually managed to accomplish. I think from memory besides GuMiho/TY/Inno/Maru Flash was the last Terran to win a big tournament
Hm, no: Byun, Polt, MMA, ForGG, Bomber won Premier tournaments as Terran after Flash did.
In his Sc2 career, Flash won one IEM, had the most victories as Terran in Proleague(and the best overall record in one season) and reached two second places and three ro4 in Premier tournaments; he never went past ro8 in Code S and never won a Major tournament. Not impressive at all when you are God, aLive is arguably more accomplished.
Jaedong was a much more successful(despite kong-esque) sc2 player, I don't think he is below Flash if we combine Sc2 and BW. Rain is on another level, however, since he became the best Protoss and won multiple tournaments in both games even if he never was the best player in the world; in my opinion, being S tier in both games is better than being Bonjwa in BW and A/B tier in Sc2.
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Northern Ireland25085 Posts
On August 13 2019 09:48 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2019 09:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 13 2019 08:41 jimminy_kriket wrote:
I think rain would get my vote as well. He was incredibly dominating in sc2 when he was playing, more so than flash by a decent bit. And like SAFenix said, he is the best current protoss player in bw, at least for the next few days until bisu starts smacking kids around again.
Flash is still definitely in the running though. You just have to ask yourself if the amount flash is better than everyone else at broodwar makes up for how much worse he was at sc2 (he really wasn't that bad). I personally don't think it does but I wouldn't argue if someone claimed it did. To requote you again, not bad at all. Flash was one of the best Terrans around in his time, he won a tournament, he placed high elsewhere, he did well in Proleague, he made GSL round of 8s and was still a relative new player to the scene. He’s a better player from his accomplishments than most current Terrans all things considered, and really underrated as an SC2 player, the Flash name really weighs down what he actually managed to accomplish. I think from memory besides GuMiho/TY/Inno/Maru Flash was the last Terran to win a big tournament Hm, no: Byun, Polt, MMA, ForGG, Bomber won Premier tournaments as Terran after Flash did. In his Sc2 career, Flash won one IEM, had the most victories as Terran in Proleague(and the best overall record in one season) and reached two second places and three ro4 in Premier tournaments; he never went past ro8 in Code S and never won a Major tournament. Not impressive at all when you are God, aLive is arguably more accomplished. Jaedong was a much more successful(despite kong-esque) sc2 player, I don't think he is below Flash if we combine Sc2 and BW. Rain is on another level, however, since he became the best Protoss and won multiple tournaments in both games even if he never was the best player in the world; in my opinion, being S tier in both games is better than being Bonjwa in BW and A/B tier in Sc2.
Sorry I meant to say as active players.
Bomber did for sure but he looks a thousand miles off currently.
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EPT
