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It all comes down to how you weigh things when comparing Flash who was pretty good at SCII but the best in BW, and Rain who was very good at both. I'd give it to Rain on the (very arbitrary) basis that he has the better Hybrid Proleague record.
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Has to be Flash for me. His dominance in SCBW is something else.
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Canada8747 Posts
I would go Flash-Rain than JD, all well above the pack.
Then you got your Nada, Boxer, Soulkey, ForGG, Stork...
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Jaedong needs more love in this discussion. In a span of 2 years of SC2 he had 15 premier tournament semifinal or better finishes, including a win at ASUS Rog and a silver at Blizzcon.
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Rain's SC2 career is criminally underrated. He was not one of the best. His level of play was the highest among all protoss greats imo, better than Zest, sOs and Stats. If you actually studied protoss plays back in the day, you will find this guy had so many details and star sense in his seemingly boring defensive and reactive play (just ask Artosis or Rotti who are not as much a fan of Stats as they were of Rain, even though they play similar styles). Pro players commented that Rain does not practice as hard as others and spent much of his practice time thinking about the game. He was the protoss Serral before there is Serral, when protoss success relied mostly on mindgames and 2 base all-ins by other players. Then in BW his play is extremely dynamic and exciting that you can hardly believe it is the same person.
In Proleague, he was the SKT race that had Innovation, Soo, Flash and Classic, all in their career peaks. Let that sink in. In terms of raw talent among SC2 players, Terran has Maru, Mvp; Zerg has Serral, Life, and Protoss has Rain and sOs (sorry Zest and Stats).
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Flash feels like the obvious choice, but if you take the question in a more abstract sense, and don't focus on sum of trophies over the longest time, and think of more meanings behind the word 'greatest', then I'd pick Boxer for sure.
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On August 13 2019 13:44 yangluphil wrote: In terms of raw talent among SC2 players, Terran has Maru, Mvp; Zerg has Serral, Life, and Protoss has Rain and sOs (sorry Zest and Stats).
You could perhaps make a case for Rain as having the most raw talent of the Protoss players but definitely not sOs. In terms of raw talent PartinG btfo of both of them in my view.
Also I think you forgot Taeja, probably the most naturally gifted player to ever play the game.
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France12454 Posts
On August 13 2019 18:25 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2019 13:44 yangluphil wrote: In terms of raw talent among SC2 players, Terran has Maru, Mvp; Zerg has Serral, Life, and Protoss has Rain and sOs (sorry Zest and Stats). You could perhaps make a case for Rain as having the most raw talent of the Protoss players but definitely not sOs. In terms of raw talent PartinG btfo of both of them in my view. Also I think you forgot Taeja, probably the most naturally gifted player to ever play the game. Meh. Most gifted player yet he never even won a GSL? I really don't see how people are able to see players "gift / talent". All top pros are at the top end of the curve talent wise, and while some players will have more abilities at certain parts of the game (Maru's micro for example), it'll always come down to grit / hard work / patches / composure under pressure at tournaments / a bit of luck.
Take Serral for example, it took him a very long time before being at this level consistently that allows him to win top tournaments. Does that mean he is not very talented? I doubt it. Are others players who peaked more quickly than him more talented, if they didn't achieve his level of play?
Grubby "famously" said that he was a slow learner, yet he peaked very high in warcraft 3, so that comforts me in the belief that talent is too diluted among other factors to be measurable. Greatness on the other hand is far easier to grasp, especially with hard facts such as achievements.
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On August 13 2019 13:44 yangluphil wrote: In Proleague, he was the SKT ace that had Innovation, Soo, Flash and Classic, all in their career peaks. Flash wasn't on SKT and Inno joined SKT after Rain left (not to mention nowhere near a career peak).
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On August 13 2019 18:34 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2019 18:25 Z3nith wrote:On August 13 2019 13:44 yangluphil wrote: In terms of raw talent among SC2 players, Terran has Maru, Mvp; Zerg has Serral, Life, and Protoss has Rain and sOs (sorry Zest and Stats). You could perhaps make a case for Rain as having the most raw talent of the Protoss players but definitely not sOs. In terms of raw talent PartinG btfo of both of them in my view. Also I think you forgot Taeja, probably the most naturally gifted player to ever play the game. Meh. Most gifted player yet he never even won a GSL? I really don't see how people are able to see players "gift / talent". All top pros are at the top end of the curve talent wise, and while some players will have more abilities at certain parts of the game (Maru's micro for example), it'll always come down to grit / hard work / patches / composure under pressure at tournaments / a bit of luck. Take Serral for example, it took him a very long time before being at this level consistently that allows him to win top tournaments. Does that mean he is not very talented? I doubt it. Are others players who peaked more quickly than him more talented, if they didn't achieve his level of play? Grubby "famously" said that he was a slow learner, yet he peaked very high in warcraft 3, so that comforts me in the belief that talent is too diluted among other factors to be measurable. Greatness on the other hand is far easier to grasp, especially with hard facts such as achievements.
Yes but I was arguing the point about natural talent specifically. Someone can be incredibly naturally talented at something without ever achieving a lot. The thing that made Taeja arguably the most naturally talented player was the fact that he could not practice for a month then just walk in and win a tournament. Your argument about his lack of a GSL actually affirms this as GSL is one of the few tournaments that requires a widely different skillset beyond just ability (that being prep).
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France12454 Posts
On August 13 2019 18:56 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2019 18:34 Poopi wrote:On August 13 2019 18:25 Z3nith wrote:On August 13 2019 13:44 yangluphil wrote: In terms of raw talent among SC2 players, Terran has Maru, Mvp; Zerg has Serral, Life, and Protoss has Rain and sOs (sorry Zest and Stats). You could perhaps make a case for Rain as having the most raw talent of the Protoss players but definitely not sOs. In terms of raw talent PartinG btfo of both of them in my view. Also I think you forgot Taeja, probably the most naturally gifted player to ever play the game. Meh. Most gifted player yet he never even won a GSL? I really don't see how people are able to see players "gift / talent". All top pros are at the top end of the curve talent wise, and while some players will have more abilities at certain parts of the game (Maru's micro for example), it'll always come down to grit / hard work / patches / composure under pressure at tournaments / a bit of luck. Take Serral for example, it took him a very long time before being at this level consistently that allows him to win top tournaments. Does that mean he is not very talented? I doubt it. Are others players who peaked more quickly than him more talented, if they didn't achieve his level of play? Grubby "famously" said that he was a slow learner, yet he peaked very high in warcraft 3, so that comforts me in the belief that talent is too diluted among other factors to be measurable. Greatness on the other hand is far easier to grasp, especially with hard facts such as achievements. Yes but I was arguing the point about natural talent specifically. Someone can be incredibly naturally talented at something without ever achieving a lot. The thing that made Taeja arguably the most naturally talented player was the fact that he could not practice for a month then just walk in and win a tournament. Your argument about his lack of a GSL actually affirms this as GSL is one of the few tournaments that requires a widely different skillset beyond just ability (that being prep). A tournament full of foreigners maybe, wasn't he the king of foreignerland? And "lack of practice" is difficult to assess, maybe he thought about the game or watched streams idk.
If he was so talented, why is he struggling so hard since he came back? It's been 10 months and he can't beat Heromarine. So I maintain and call bs on TaeJa being more talented than other top terrans. All top players have roughly the same talent, that is being able to go to the top of the food chain on this game.
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On August 13 2019 19:39 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2019 18:56 Z3nith wrote:On August 13 2019 18:34 Poopi wrote:On August 13 2019 18:25 Z3nith wrote:On August 13 2019 13:44 yangluphil wrote: In terms of raw talent among SC2 players, Terran has Maru, Mvp; Zerg has Serral, Life, and Protoss has Rain and sOs (sorry Zest and Stats). You could perhaps make a case for Rain as having the most raw talent of the Protoss players but definitely not sOs. In terms of raw talent PartinG btfo of both of them in my view. Also I think you forgot Taeja, probably the most naturally gifted player to ever play the game. Meh. Most gifted player yet he never even won a GSL? I really don't see how people are able to see players "gift / talent". All top pros are at the top end of the curve talent wise, and while some players will have more abilities at certain parts of the game (Maru's micro for example), it'll always come down to grit / hard work / patches / composure under pressure at tournaments / a bit of luck. Take Serral for example, it took him a very long time before being at this level consistently that allows him to win top tournaments. Does that mean he is not very talented? I doubt it. Are others players who peaked more quickly than him more talented, if they didn't achieve his level of play? Grubby "famously" said that he was a slow learner, yet he peaked very high in warcraft 3, so that comforts me in the belief that talent is too diluted among other factors to be measurable. Greatness on the other hand is far easier to grasp, especially with hard facts such as achievements. Yes but I was arguing the point about natural talent specifically. Someone can be incredibly naturally talented at something without ever achieving a lot. The thing that made Taeja arguably the most naturally talented player was the fact that he could not practice for a month then just walk in and win a tournament. Your argument about his lack of a GSL actually affirms this as GSL is one of the few tournaments that requires a widely different skillset beyond just ability (that being prep). A tournament full of foreigners maybe, wasn't he the king of foreignerland? And "lack of practice" is difficult to assess, maybe he thought about the game or watched streams idk. If he was so talented, why is he struggling so hard since he came back? It's been 10 months and he can't beat Heromarine. So I maintain and call bs on TaeJa being more talented than other top terrans.
"Full of foreigners", yet ro8 and onwards usually were full koreans. The answer is easy, TaeJa retired because he had wrists issues and apparently he still suffers from them.
I agree that it is extremely hard to value someone's "talent"; regarding Serral, he admittedly practice a healthy amount of hours but way less than the absurd schedules I have heard Others have and you have to take into consideration he was not playing on a regular basis before 2017.
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Jaedong, post Kespa BW is very meh so i'd favor Jaedong over Soulkey and Rain.
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France12454 Posts
On August 13 2019 19:46 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2019 19:39 Poopi wrote:On August 13 2019 18:56 Z3nith wrote:On August 13 2019 18:34 Poopi wrote:On August 13 2019 18:25 Z3nith wrote:On August 13 2019 13:44 yangluphil wrote: In terms of raw talent among SC2 players, Terran has Maru, Mvp; Zerg has Serral, Life, and Protoss has Rain and sOs (sorry Zest and Stats). You could perhaps make a case for Rain as having the most raw talent of the Protoss players but definitely not sOs. In terms of raw talent PartinG btfo of both of them in my view. Also I think you forgot Taeja, probably the most naturally gifted player to ever play the game. Meh. Most gifted player yet he never even won a GSL? I really don't see how people are able to see players "gift / talent". All top pros are at the top end of the curve talent wise, and while some players will have more abilities at certain parts of the game (Maru's micro for example), it'll always come down to grit / hard work / patches / composure under pressure at tournaments / a bit of luck. Take Serral for example, it took him a very long time before being at this level consistently that allows him to win top tournaments. Does that mean he is not very talented? I doubt it. Are others players who peaked more quickly than him more talented, if they didn't achieve his level of play? Grubby "famously" said that he was a slow learner, yet he peaked very high in warcraft 3, so that comforts me in the belief that talent is too diluted among other factors to be measurable. Greatness on the other hand is far easier to grasp, especially with hard facts such as achievements. Yes but I was arguing the point about natural talent specifically. Someone can be incredibly naturally talented at something without ever achieving a lot. The thing that made Taeja arguably the most naturally talented player was the fact that he could not practice for a month then just walk in and win a tournament. Your argument about his lack of a GSL actually affirms this as GSL is one of the few tournaments that requires a widely different skillset beyond just ability (that being prep). A tournament full of foreigners maybe, wasn't he the king of foreignerland? And "lack of practice" is difficult to assess, maybe he thought about the game or watched streams idk. If he was so talented, why is he struggling so hard since he came back? It's been 10 months and he can't beat Heromarine. So I maintain and call bs on TaeJa being more talented than other top terrans. The answer is easy, TaeJa retired because he had wrists issues and apparently he still suffers from them. Where did you have this information? Or is it a guess?
On August 13 2019 19:47 Morbidius wrote: Jaedong, post Kespa BW is very meh so i'd favor Jaedong over Soulkey and Rain. I don't know how hard post kespa BW is, but Jaedong was successful financially in sc2 but chose the easiest paths in international tournaments and such, he wasn't doing that great. He is still a strong contender.
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On August 13 2019 19:49 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2019 19:46 Xain0n wrote:On August 13 2019 19:39 Poopi wrote:On August 13 2019 18:56 Z3nith wrote:On August 13 2019 18:34 Poopi wrote:On August 13 2019 18:25 Z3nith wrote:On August 13 2019 13:44 yangluphil wrote: In terms of raw talent among SC2 players, Terran has Maru, Mvp; Zerg has Serral, Life, and Protoss has Rain and sOs (sorry Zest and Stats). You could perhaps make a case for Rain as having the most raw talent of the Protoss players but definitely not sOs. In terms of raw talent PartinG btfo of both of them in my view. Also I think you forgot Taeja, probably the most naturally gifted player to ever play the game. Meh. Most gifted player yet he never even won a GSL? I really don't see how people are able to see players "gift / talent". All top pros are at the top end of the curve talent wise, and while some players will have more abilities at certain parts of the game (Maru's micro for example), it'll always come down to grit / hard work / patches / composure under pressure at tournaments / a bit of luck. Take Serral for example, it took him a very long time before being at this level consistently that allows him to win top tournaments. Does that mean he is not very talented? I doubt it. Are others players who peaked more quickly than him more talented, if they didn't achieve his level of play? Grubby "famously" said that he was a slow learner, yet he peaked very high in warcraft 3, so that comforts me in the belief that talent is too diluted among other factors to be measurable. Greatness on the other hand is far easier to grasp, especially with hard facts such as achievements. Yes but I was arguing the point about natural talent specifically. Someone can be incredibly naturally talented at something without ever achieving a lot. The thing that made Taeja arguably the most naturally talented player was the fact that he could not practice for a month then just walk in and win a tournament. Your argument about his lack of a GSL actually affirms this as GSL is one of the few tournaments that requires a widely different skillset beyond just ability (that being prep). A tournament full of foreigners maybe, wasn't he the king of foreignerland? And "lack of practice" is difficult to assess, maybe he thought about the game or watched streams idk. If he was so talented, why is he struggling so hard since he came back? It's been 10 months and he can't beat Heromarine. So I maintain and call bs on TaeJa being more talented than other top terrans. The answer is easy, TaeJa retired because he had wrists issues and apparently he still suffers from them. Where did you have this information? Or is it a guess? Show nested quote +On August 13 2019 19:47 Morbidius wrote: Jaedong, post Kespa BW is very meh so i'd favor Jaedong over Soulkey and Rain. I don't know how hard post kespa BW is, but Jaedong was successful financially in sc2 but chose the easiest paths in international tournaments and such, he wasn't doing that great. He is still a strong contender.
That TaeJa retired because of wrist issues is well known and you can easily find arcticles on this site about that; as for him still suffering from wrist issues, I can't point you towards any reliable source but it was said multiple times on many streams(that's why I wrote "apparently"). It would easily explain why TaeJa hasn't been capable of improving, even if merely being back from the military would be enough looking at how the other returned players are performing.
Flash stayed in Korea but the only tournament he won in Sc2 was IEM Toronto; Jaedong had a much more accomplished career, regardless of his decision to play abroad.
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Flash, one of the most decorated players in e-sports and the most dominant player ever in Broodwar and still going strong... a true genius of the game. Remembering his Kespa era win percentage and looking at his post Kespa era as well, he has above 70% wins in all 3 matchups in a span of over 700 official games by now.
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On August 13 2019 06:29 Z3nith wrote: Either Rain or Soulkey. Of the really good brood war players only Jaedong can really claim to have been successful at Sc2, Flash had his moments but just wasn't incredible. Actually FantaSy could be in the running.
IMO Fantasy essentially had the rug pulled out from under him at his peak in BW. In 2011-2012 he was crushing everyone that wasn't Jangbi. He had an absurd winning rate during that time including 3-0ing Flash in the OSL semifinals and beating him again in the last Proleague finals. When Kespa BW ended he was #1 in ELO. I truly believe that had KESPA stayed with BW he would have solidified himself above flash.
But then also there are a lot of SC2 players that I assume would have made fantastic BW players but never really got the chance. Also players like Bogus, stats, rain, and soulkey were still up-and-coming in BW and clearly going to be big players on the scene before the switch happened and then went on to be quite good in SC2 (and soulkey went back to BW and became arguably the best zerg around for the last year+).
But then yeah, flash is undisputed #1 BW player ever. This point of this thread is to argue about if his comparatively low SC2 results can be countered by a lesser BW player who did better in SC2? Not very interesting to argue about honestly. Just wanted to point out that fantasy was a damn good BW player and I miss watching his vultures
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Never watched BW but I'm not sure if there's a clear greatest SC2 player. Everyone I can think of seems too vulnerable because of some reason. Life banned for matchfixing, IMMvp dominated too early and disappeared, Maru loses at weekenders, Serral has had too short of a time, Innovation just loses too early at too many tournaments in general, etc.
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