EPT[D] Greatest overall Starcraft player of all time? - Page 2
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Then you got your Nada, Boxer, Soulkey, ForGG, Stork... | ||
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arcane1129
United States270 Posts
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yangluphil
318 Posts
In Proleague, he was the SKT race that had Innovation, Soo, Flash and Classic, all in their career peaks. Let that sink in. In terms of raw talent among SC2 players, Terran has Maru, Mvp; Zerg has Serral, Life, and Protoss has Rain and sOs (sorry Zest and Stats). | ||
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 13 2019 13:44 yangluphil wrote: In terms of raw talent among SC2 players, Terran has Maru, Mvp; Zerg has Serral, Life, and Protoss has Rain and sOs (sorry Zest and Stats). You could perhaps make a case for Rain as having the most raw talent of the Protoss players but definitely not sOs. In terms of raw talent PartinG btfo of both of them in my view. Also I think you forgot Taeja, probably the most naturally gifted player to ever play the game. | ||
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Poopi
France12790 Posts
On August 13 2019 18:25 Z3nith wrote: You could perhaps make a case for Rain as having the most raw talent of the Protoss players but definitely not sOs. In terms of raw talent PartinG btfo of both of them in my view. Also I think you forgot Taeja, probably the most naturally gifted player to ever play the game. Meh. Most gifted player yet he never even won a GSL? I really don't see how people are able to see players "gift / talent". All top pros are at the top end of the curve talent wise, and while some players will have more abilities at certain parts of the game (Maru's micro for example), it'll always come down to grit / hard work / patches / composure under pressure at tournaments / a bit of luck. Take Serral for example, it took him a very long time before being at this level consistently that allows him to win top tournaments. Does that mean he is not very talented? I doubt it. Are others players who peaked more quickly than him more talented, if they didn't achieve his level of play? Grubby "famously" said that he was a slow learner, yet he peaked very high in warcraft 3, so that comforts me in the belief that talent is too diluted among other factors to be measurable. Greatness on the other hand is far easier to grasp, especially with hard facts such as achievements. | ||
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Elentos
55510 Posts
On August 13 2019 13:44 yangluphil wrote: In Proleague, he was the SKT ace that had Innovation, Soo, Flash and Classic, all in their career peaks. Flash wasn't on SKT and Inno joined SKT after Rain left (not to mention nowhere near a career peak). | ||
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Z3nith
485 Posts
On August 13 2019 18:34 Poopi wrote: Meh. Most gifted player yet he never even won a GSL? I really don't see how people are able to see players "gift / talent". All top pros are at the top end of the curve talent wise, and while some players will have more abilities at certain parts of the game (Maru's micro for example), it'll always come down to grit / hard work / patches / composure under pressure at tournaments / a bit of luck. Take Serral for example, it took him a very long time before being at this level consistently that allows him to win top tournaments. Does that mean he is not very talented? I doubt it. Are others players who peaked more quickly than him more talented, if they didn't achieve his level of play? Grubby "famously" said that he was a slow learner, yet he peaked very high in warcraft 3, so that comforts me in the belief that talent is too diluted among other factors to be measurable. Greatness on the other hand is far easier to grasp, especially with hard facts such as achievements. Yes but I was arguing the point about natural talent specifically. Someone can be incredibly naturally talented at something without ever achieving a lot. The thing that made Taeja arguably the most naturally talented player was the fact that he could not practice for a month then just walk in and win a tournament. Your argument about his lack of a GSL actually affirms this as GSL is one of the few tournaments that requires a widely different skillset beyond just ability (that being prep). | ||
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Poopi
France12790 Posts
On August 13 2019 18:56 Z3nith wrote: Yes but I was arguing the point about natural talent specifically. Someone can be incredibly naturally talented at something without ever achieving a lot. The thing that made Taeja arguably the most naturally talented player was the fact that he could not practice for a month then just walk in and win a tournament. Your argument about his lack of a GSL actually affirms this as GSL is one of the few tournaments that requires a widely different skillset beyond just ability (that being prep). A tournament full of foreigners maybe, wasn't he the king of foreignerland? And "lack of practice" is difficult to assess, maybe he thought about the game or watched streams idk. If he was so talented, why is he struggling so hard since he came back? It's been 10 months and he can't beat Heromarine. So I maintain and call bs on TaeJa being more talented than other top terrans. All top players have roughly the same talent, that is being able to go to the top of the food chain on this game. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On August 13 2019 19:39 Poopi wrote: A tournament full of foreigners maybe, wasn't he the king of foreignerland? And "lack of practice" is difficult to assess, maybe he thought about the game or watched streams idk. If he was so talented, why is he struggling so hard since he came back? It's been 10 months and he can't beat Heromarine. So I maintain and call bs on TaeJa being more talented than other top terrans. "Full of foreigners", yet ro8 and onwards usually were full koreans. The answer is easy, TaeJa retired because he had wrists issues and apparently he still suffers from them. I agree that it is extremely hard to value someone's "talent"; regarding Serral, he admittedly practice a healthy amount of hours but way less than the absurd schedules I have heard Others have and you have to take into consideration he was not playing on a regular basis before 2017. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Poopi
France12790 Posts
On August 13 2019 19:46 Xain0n wrote: The answer is easy, TaeJa retired because he had wrists issues and apparently he still suffers from them. Where did you have this information? Or is it a guess? On August 13 2019 19:47 Morbidius wrote: Jaedong, post Kespa BW is very meh so i'd favor Jaedong over Soulkey and Rain. I don't know how hard post kespa BW is, but Jaedong was successful financially in sc2 but chose the easiest paths in international tournaments and such, he wasn't doing that great. He is still a strong contender. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On August 13 2019 19:49 Poopi wrote: Where did you have this information? Or is it a guess? I don't know how hard post kespa BW is, but Jaedong was successful financially in sc2 but chose the easiest paths in international tournaments and such, he wasn't doing that great. He is still a strong contender. That TaeJa retired because of wrist issues is well known and you can easily find arcticles on this site about that; as for him still suffering from wrist issues, I can't point you towards any reliable source but it was said multiple times on many streams(that's why I wrote "apparently"). It would easily explain why TaeJa hasn't been capable of improving, even if merely being back from the military would be enough looking at how the other returned players are performing. Flash stayed in Korea but the only tournament he won in Sc2 was IEM Toronto; Jaedong had a much more accomplished career, regardless of his decision to play abroad. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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Ideas
United States8087 Posts
On August 13 2019 06:29 Z3nith wrote: Either Rain or Soulkey. Of the really good brood war players only Jaedong can really claim to have been successful at Sc2, Flash had his moments but just wasn't incredible. Actually FantaSy could be in the running. IMO Fantasy essentially had the rug pulled out from under him at his peak in BW. In 2011-2012 he was crushing everyone that wasn't Jangbi. He had an absurd winning rate during that time including 3-0ing Flash in the OSL semifinals and beating him again in the last Proleague finals. When Kespa BW ended he was #1 in ELO. I truly believe that had KESPA stayed with BW he would have solidified himself above flash. But then also there are a lot of SC2 players that I assume would have made fantastic BW players but never really got the chance. Also players like Bogus, stats, rain, and soulkey were still up-and-coming in BW and clearly going to be big players on the scene before the switch happened and then went on to be quite good in SC2 (and soulkey went back to BW and became arguably the best zerg around for the last year+). But then yeah, flash is undisputed #1 BW player ever. This point of this thread is to argue about if his comparatively low SC2 results can be countered by a lesser BW player who did better in SC2? Not very interesting to argue about honestly. Just wanted to point out that fantasy was a damn good BW player and I miss watching his vultures  | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
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