Two weeks ago, we announced our plans to propose and test two separate sets of possible changes for the next big Versus patch. Since our last community update, we’ve gotten a great deal of constructive feedback from the fruitful community discussions around the first set of changes proposed. We are now ready to introduce Proposal #2, which will replace Proposal #1 in the testing tab later today. Partly because of generally positive feedback, both possible iterations of the next patch will include the following:
Stimpack: Upgrade research duration reduced from 121 to 100 seconds.
New upgrade Enhanced Shockwaves: Increases the radius of the Ghost’s EMP Round from 1.5 to 2. Cost: 150/150. Research time: 79 seconds.
Carrier: Interceptor build time decreased from 11 to 9.
Nexus: Strategic Recall cooldown increased from 85 to 130 seconds.
In addition, we saw a bug report circulating around various community forums describing how the Infested Terran’s Infested Rockets weapon ignores armor. We plan to roll out a fix for this along with this upcoming patch, but since this bugfix has a similar effect to our initially proposed Infested Rockets change, we’ll be replacing that change with this bugfix.
Bugfix: Infested Terran: Infested Rockets will no longer ignore armor.
Proposal #2
For Proposal #2, we’ll be including the above changes, but removing our most experimental change involving Warp Prism warp-in speed.
Removed Changes:
Warp Prisms no longer start with the Warp Conduit passive ability and warp-ins will take 11 seconds when not near a Warp Gate or Nexus, up from 4. The Gravitic Drive upgrade now has the added functionality of granting Warp Prisms the Warp Conduit passive ability, reducing warp-in time from 11 to 4.
Though this change is a significant redesign, it does a good job at addressing multiple issues in one condensed stroke. Some of these issues include the strength and variety of Protoss all-ins in PvZ, the harassment strength of Warp Prisms, and the overall power level of Protoss. In its stead, we’d like to make the following additions with Proposal #2:
Added Changes:
Zerg
Overlord’s Pneumatized Carapace upgrade research cost decreased from 100/100 to 75/75.
We hope this change will address the difficultly Zerg has in the early game, when scouting their Protoss opponents—specifically, their ability to differentiate between tech choices and the various Immortal-based timings. In our initial feedback from professional players, we heard varied opinions regarding the efficacy of this change, so we want to be very careful that Overlord speed openings don’t become omnipresent in either ZvT or ZvP. Protoss
Warp Prism cost increased from 200 to 250 minerals.
The Warp Prism is perceived as a powerful unit with a lot of utility, providing both harassment and all-in opportunities. We believe this cost increase will more accurately reflect the unit’s power level.
Warp Prism pickup range decreased from 6 to 5.
We view Warp Prism ranged pickup as one of the more positive additions to LotV—it provides for many skill-testing micro opportunities, encourages Protoss to poke at their opponents without overly committing their army, and allows top players the ability to distinguish themselves. On the other hand, the large pickup range can be frustrating to play against and contributes to the potency of Immortal all-ins. As such, we think there is room to adjust the opponent’s ability to interact with the Prism and the level of risk the Prism must put itself in while it juggles its cargo. Our primary concern with the suggested change in the current landscape is that it could potentially impact PvZ macro openings more than it would PvZ all-in openings.
Zealot Charge additional impact damage decreased from 8 to 0. After researching Charge, Zealot will still retain the ability to always hit a fleeting target at least once.
Zealots contribute greatly to the power level of Protoss in all matchups, whether they’re used in direct engagements or as part of a harassment role in combination with Warp Prisms. In both these roles, we believe Zealots might be slightly too powerful relative to their cost and the control required to use them. Our intention with this change is both to lower the frontal power of the Protoss army and to slightly diminish the strength of Zealot harassment throughout the game.
In PvZ, this change will also allow unupgraded Zerglings the ability to take additional hits from Chargelots without +1 ground weapons, allowing them to be much more resilient to Charge-based timings (including popular ones that involve Immortals). It would also restore the relationship between weapon-upgraded Zealots and carapace-upgraded Zerglings, an interaction that dates back to the original StarCraft.
Our general rationale for breaking apart all the aforementioned changes in Proposal #2 from Proposal #1 is that we believe they represent two distinct approaches to addressing many of the same issues. For the Charge change specifically, we believe not only that it has overlap with the Prism warp-in speed change, but the severity of both changes combined would also be too extreme for a mid-year balance patch.
As this change is one to a core Protoss unit that is used at all phases of the game in all matchups, we plan to be extra attentive to how it plays. If it does end up going live, we’ll careful monitor just how significantly each Protoss matchup changes in their respective mid-games.
Testing and Feedback
Now that you’ve heard both proposals and are familiar with all the possible changes for the next balance update, it’s time to deliver your feedback. Which proposal do you like better? Is there anything you would tweak from either proposal? We look forward to hearing from you once again!
Overall these look much better than the original group, although I'm personally surprised that Blizz is still going through with the Stim buff. I guess in testing it wasn't as radical of a change as I originally had thought.
The Infestor bug intrigues me though. If Infested Terrans really were ignoring armor before, that would explain why they were so damn strong vs Carriers. Since that's going in as a hotfix we'll get to see right away if Infested Terrans need further nerfing.
Infestor Neural parasite range reduced from 9 to 7.
Those aren't in the blue post. If that is what you think SHOULD be added, you should probably say so. Your post made me go back and double check to see if I missed something when I didn't.
EDIT: didn't catch your edit. Your post is fine now. :D Even if I don't agree with it, especially the Neural Nerf would make it unusable vs Terran.
The changes are reasonable and I think better compared the first version. What is missing is: 1. Forge requires gateway in order to discourage cannon rushing. 2. Disruptor range decreased by 1 in order to make the relationship between tanks and disruptors more even. 3. Nydus worm cost changed to 100/75 so that spamming 4-5 worms in your opponents base actually have a drawback. 4. Neural parasite cost changed to 150 energy to better reflect how strong this ability is.
Infestor Neural parasite range reduced from 9 to 7.
Those aren't in the blue post. If that is what you think SHOULD be added, you should probably say so. Your post made me go back and double check to see if I missed something when I didn't.
EDIT: didn't catch your edit. Your post is fine now. :D Even if I don't agree with it, especially the Neural Nerf would make it unusable vs Terran.
both abilities need nerf, only thing i mean, how they do it, is on them.
On July 17 2019 04:15 MockHamill wrote: The changes are reasonable and I think better compared the first version. What is missing is: 1. Forge requires gateway in order to discourage cannon rushing. 2. Disruptor range decreased by 1 in order to make the relationship between tanks and disruptors more even. 3. Nydus worm cost changed to 100/75 so that spamming 4-5 worms in your opponents base actually have a drawback. 4. Neural parasite cost changed to 150 energy to better reflect how strong this ability is.
As much as I despise cannon rushing, it shouldn't be discouraged. NP cost should definitely be increased. It's too OP.
Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended. As if that makes up for the fact that the strongest part of the game for Protoss gets hit hard.
On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote: Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended.
That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem.
It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored.
On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote: Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended.
That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem.
It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored.
Scaling with armor upgrades is gonna be less impactful than the flat damage nerf. The ITs will still shred interceptors and void rays to bits since there's no base armor on them, leaving the cleanup to corruptors.
There's also the problem that there's no real counter play to mass infestor anymore. Feedback doesn't kill them and is outranged by fungal either way. Only other long range ground unit Protoss has is the disruptor which is a play that I'm pretty sure doesn't even qualify as a Hail Mary. So Toss goes into air where they're disadvantaged against Zerg.
On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote: Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended.
That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem.
It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored.
Scaling with armor upgrades is gonna be less impactful than the flat damage nerf. The ITs will still shred interceptors and void rays to bits since there's no base armor on them, leaving the cleanup to corruptors.
There's also the problem that there's no real counter play to mass infestor anymore. Feedback doesn't kill them and is outranged by fungal either way. Only other long range ground unit Protoss has is the disruptor which is a play that I'm pretty sure doesn't even qualify as a Hail Mary. So Toss goes into air where they're disadvantaged against Zerg.
Does anyone remember what the reasoning behind the Feedback nerf was? Was it because of Medivacs or was it due to Infestors? I know it had nothing to do with Ghosts.
Just saying, it might be worthwhile to undo that nerf if Infestors are still a problem. The buffs Terran is getting in TvP might offset the impact that Feedback on Medivacs has, which to be honest is not THAT big of an issue in the first place IMO. Medivacs only die to Feedback if they have like 70% energy in the first place.
On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote: Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended. As if that makes up for the fact that the strongest part of the game for Protoss gets hit hard.
Assuming the majority of changes go through yeah I mean, not looking forward to it. Really high level PvT I thought was largely ok, not perfect but really not that bad, certainly not close to proportion to the ‘protossed’ any time a Protoss player wins a game.
PvZ already seems to be shifting, or at least the worst of the Immortal allins is being better dealt with than a few months ago. I worry that nerfing stuff that’s being figured out, or at least nowhere near as bad as it was is going to really tip the scales too far and Zerg will end up crushing that matchup for a bit.
Warp Prism nerf in conjunction with charge nerf is weird. Isn't there a correlation between Warp in and strength of Gateway units? I mean I understand that Blizz is worried since there are almost as many Protoss in the GSL ro 16 as there are Terrans and in contrast to WCS Summer, the last GSL finals, even though won by Zerg aswell, weren't even a ZvZ; steps should be taken to prevent Protoss from becoming a viable race on the highest level.
On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote: Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended.
That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem.
It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored.
Scaling with armor upgrades is gonna be less impactful than the flat damage nerf. The ITs will still shred interceptors and void rays to bits since there's no base armor on them, leaving the cleanup to corruptors.
There's also the problem that there's no real counter play to mass infestor anymore. Feedback doesn't kill them and is outranged by fungal either way. Only other long range ground unit Protoss has is the disruptor which is a play that I'm pretty sure doesn't even qualify as a Hail Mary. So Toss goes into air where they're disadvantaged against Zerg.
Does anyone remember what the reasoning behind the Feedback nerf was? Was it because of Medivacs or was it due to Infestors? I know it had nothing to do with Ghosts.
Just saying, it might be worthwhile to undo that nerf if Infestors are still a problem. The buffs Terran is getting in TvP might offset the impact that Feedback on Medivacs has, which to be honest is THAT big of an issue in the first place IMO. Medivacs only die to Feedback if they have like 70% energy in the first place.
When the Ghost’s Snipe ability was changed to Steady Shot, the Ghost lost the ability to instantly kill a High Templar, but Templars remained very lethal to Ghosts. This change should move this relationship to focus more on energy denial/casting rather than outright lethality. Reducing Feedback’s damage also means that Medivacs will also no longer be instantly destroyed, which promotes more multipronged play in late-game scenarios. Against Zerg, this makes Vipers slightly less fragile, which should allow Zerg a few more chances to try and pull apart a Protoss player’s late-game armies.
Helloooooo! Wake up! PvZ is zerg favoured! Stop this already, it's not funny. "Nydus is abused left and right - lets buff dropalords logic" does not apply here. Like, these changes are completely unreasonable (to put it politely).
On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote: Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended.
That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem.
It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored.
Scaling with armor upgrades is gonna be less impactful than the flat damage nerf. The ITs will still shred interceptors and void rays to bits since there's no base armor on them, leaving the cleanup to corruptors.
There's also the problem that there's no real counter play to mass infestor anymore. Feedback doesn't kill them and is outranged by fungal either way. Only other long range ground unit Protoss has is the disruptor which is a play that I'm pretty sure doesn't even qualify as a Hail Mary. So Toss goes into air where they're disadvantaged against Zerg.
Does anyone remember what the reasoning behind the Feedback nerf was? Was it because of Medivacs or was it due to Infestors? I know it had nothing to do with Ghosts.
Just saying, it might be worthwhile to undo that nerf if Infestors are still a problem. The buffs Terran is getting in TvP might offset the impact that Feedback on Medivacs has, which to be honest is THAT big of an issue in the first place IMO. Medivacs only die to Feedback if they have like 70% energy in the first place.
When the Ghost’s Snipe ability was changed to Steady Shot, the Ghost lost the ability to instantly kill a High Templar, but Templars remained very lethal to Ghosts. This change should move this relationship to focus more on energy denial/casting rather than outright lethality. Reducing Feedback’s damage also means that Medivacs will also no longer be instantly destroyed, which promotes more multipronged play in late-game scenarios. Against Zerg, this makes Vipers slightly less fragile, which should allow Zerg a few more chances to try and pull apart a Protoss player’s late-game armies.
I see. Well. Considering we still don't see Snipe used at all vs Templar (it's still really just EMP) and considering Ghosts are getting a buff that will improve them vs Templar, and considering Infestors are a problem, I'd be in favor of testing what it would look like if that nerf was reverted.
I'd also like to see general nerfs to Infested Terrans too, but buffing Feedback might also be a logical direction to go in, that's all gonna depend on what the Terran buffs do to the TvP match up.
Some of the changes are good and this will definitely be good for PvT but PvZ is going to be even more of a shitshow than it already is. I understand the infestor is a hard unit to balance but the fact is it absolutely destroys any chance of Protoss winning in the late game.
On July 17 2019 04:44 Z3nith wrote: Some of the changes are good and this will definitely be good for PvT but PvZ is going to be even more of a shitshow than it already is. I understand the infestor is a hard unit to balance but the fact is it absolutely destroys any chance of Protoss winning in the late game.
If I had someone to take my bet, I'd wager we'll see a last minute Infested Terran nerf thrown in with these changes when they actually go live.
The Infestor is an obvious problem in late game PvZ right now, and I'm confident that the Carrier buff won't be enough to change that.
It's a very obvious problem, made even more apparent to the community because of the lingering legacy of WoL's Infestor/Broodlord era.
I don't think Blizz will let this current meta go on for that much longer. The outrage is gonna just get worse and worse. Even Terrans are agreeing with Protoss players (and Terrans HATE Protoss players) that late game PvZ is bullshit. It'll get adjusted, it's more a matter of when than if.
I don't understand why they want to nerf Protoss so hard. They overperformed in 2 tournaments this year but now it seems like the other races have already adapted with Dark winning GSL and WCS being a ZvZ finals. If this goes through Protoss will be very weak at the Pro level.
If they're going to go through with some of these changes, then they need to reconsider the feedback nerf. Maybe test and see if there's a middle ground between where it is now and where it was. Something that will better handle infestors while not making feedback too good against medivacs or ghosts. Either that or nerf infestor health. There needs to be some kind of way for protoss to respond to mass infestors. There currently isn't one really.
On July 17 2019 04:15 MockHamill wrote: The changes are reasonable and I think better compared the first version. What is missing is: 1. Forge requires gateway in order to discourage cannon rushing. 2. Disruptor range decreased by 1 in order to make the relationship between tanks and disruptors more even. 3. Nydus worm cost changed to 100/75 so that spamming 4-5 worms in your opponents base actually have a drawback. 4. Neural parasite cost changed to 150 energy to better reflect how strong this ability is.
man, you play terran. why are you losing to cannon rushes??
Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
On July 17 2019 04:44 Z3nith wrote: Some of the changes are good and this will definitely be good for PvT but PvZ is going to be even more of a shitshow than it already is. I understand the infestor is a hard unit to balance but the fact is it absolutely destroys any chance of Protoss winning in the late game.
If I had someone to take my bet, I'd wager we'll see a last minute Infested Terran nerf thrown in with these changes when they actually go live.
The Infestor is an obvious problem in late game PvZ right now, and I'm confident that the Carrier buff won't be enough to change that.
It's a very obvious problem, made even more apparent to the community because of the lingering legacy of WoL's Infestor/Broodlord era.
I don't think Blizz will let this current meta go on for that much longer. The outrage is gonna just get worse and worse. Even Terrans are agreeing with Protoss players (and Terrans HATE Protoss players) that late game PvZ is bullshit. It'll get adjusted, it's more a matter of when than if.
How can you be sure that bugfixed infestors will still be too strong? I fear TvZ could shift too much in favor of Terran with further nerfs.
This second wave of changes seems better(retaining stim buffs? Hmm); not sure if increasing the cost of Warp Prism is needed and that charge nerf is dubious at best.
Whiners have been complaining so much that Blizzard now wants to nerf Protoss to the ground...
On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
100% agree. This does absolutely nothing to address late game pvz....itr actually tilts the matchup even more so in Zerg favor. I get the need for a TvP change but in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do. Average gold league protoss barely even knows a prism exists. If we look at tournament results basically every major tournament has been won by a Zerg in 2019 and I do not see how these changes do anything but further strengthen the foothold on the Zerg dominance in 2019.
On July 17 2019 04:15 MockHamill wrote: The changes are reasonable and I think better compared the first version. What is missing is: 1. Forge requires gateway in order to discourage cannon rushing. 2. Disruptor range decreased by 1 in order to make the relationship between tanks and disruptors more even. 3. Nydus worm cost changed to 100/75 so that spamming 4-5 worms in your opponents base actually have a drawback. 4. Neural parasite cost changed to 150 energy to better reflect how strong this ability is.
man, you play terran. why are you losing to cannon rushes??
I do not I just consider cannon rushing a joke, it should not even be in the game. It is also close to broken in PvP.
On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do
o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game
On July 17 2019 04:15 MockHamill wrote: The changes are reasonable and I think better compared the first version. What is missing is: 1. Forge requires gateway in order to discourage cannon rushing. 2. Disruptor range decreased by 1 in order to make the relationship between tanks and disruptors more even. 3. Nydus worm cost changed to 100/75 so that spamming 4-5 worms in your opponents base actually have a drawback. 4. Neural parasite cost changed to 150 energy to better reflect how strong this ability is.
man, you play terran. why are you losing to cannon rushes??
I do not I just consider cannon rushing a joke, it should not even be in the game. It is also close to broken in PvP.
Why shouldn't it? It's just as viable a strategy as any other that perfectly embodies the high risk high reward of cheesy play.
On July 17 2019 04:15 MockHamill wrote: The changes are reasonable and I think better compared the first version. What is missing is: 1. Forge requires gateway in order to discourage cannon rushing. 2. Disruptor range decreased by 1 in order to make the relationship between tanks and disruptors more even. 3. Nydus worm cost changed to 100/75 so that spamming 4-5 worms in your opponents base actually have a drawback. 4. Neural parasite cost changed to 150 energy to better reflect how strong this ability is.
man, you play terran. why are you losing to cannon rushes??
I do not I just consider cannon rushing a joke, it should not even be in the game. It is also close to broken in PvP.
what's your stake in this then? you don't want those free ladder points? cannon rusher is like a 4th race in the game. I much prefer it over normal TvP
I really don't get it. We had an overweight of P in RO8 in the GSL super tournament but in the bigger picture P hasn't won sh*t of the premier tournaments in both 2018 and 2019. And yet, all Blizz can focus on is rather big nerfs to P and buffs to the other races. There was a game earlier today on Stats' stream that displayed just how overpowered and completely un-engageable mass infestors are right now - how can this not be the main issue in terms of balance right now?
On July 17 2019 05:57 -KG- wrote: I really don't get it. We had an overweight of P in RO8 in the GSL super tournament but in the bigger picture P hasn't won sh*t of the premier tournaments in both 2018 and 2019. And yet, all Blizz can focus on is rather big nerfs to P and buffs to the other races. There was a game earlier today on Stats' stream that displayed just how overpowered and completely un-engageable mass infestors are right now - how can this not be the main issue in terms of balance right now?
The Stats game really showed how bad it was. Stats was on skytoss comp while limiting the zerg bases and ended up on a 20k bank. Played the cleanest play against it that I've seen, minimising losses as much as possible. Still lost.
That game highlighted the problem with how powerful infested terrans are.
On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do
o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game
Not even sure where to begin with this. Hero losing 3 WP to turrets actually displays an appropriate response to warp prism harass lol. How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army? Other races don't habve the benefit of scans lol. I mean hell when I play T it happens to me all the time. Really T isnt even in this equation right now or shouldn't be. We are talking about how these nerfs make PvZ even more unwinnable. This guy sounds like according to him T should never lose a game!
So they pretty much kept the entire first package of changes, except for WP, meaning that testing two different sets of changes is not going to happen after all.
Most of the changes they kept from set #1 are great though, although I'm very surprised they kept the stim change.
The new WP changes (nerf range, increase cost) seem very reasonable and not like that bombshell the first change was.
I guess the new Ghost upgrade is supposed to counter mass Infestor, but I have no idea what's going to counter them for Protoss. Yeah, so I agree with everybody else that Protoss are getting slaughtered in here, and Zerg imba lategame is untouched. Weird decision by blizzard.
On July 17 2019 06:09 sneakyfox wrote: So they pretty much kept the entire first package of changes, except for WP, meaning that testing two different sets of changes is not going to happen after all.
Most of the changes they kept from set #1 are great though, although I'm very surprised they kept the stim change.
The new WP changes (nerf range, increase cost) seem very reasonable and not like that bombshell the first change was.
I guess the new Ghost upgrade is supposed to counter mass Infestor, but I have no idea what's going to counter them for Protoss. Yeah, so I agree with everybody else that Protoss are getting slaughtered in here, and Zerg imba lategame is untouched. Weird decision by blizzard.
Stop saying late game Zerg is untouched, that isn't true. Appropriately balanced? That's another story, but they DID in fact touch it.
Zealot Charge additional impact damage decreased from 8 to 0. After researching Charge, Zealot will still retain the ability to always hit a fleeting target at least once.
Glad they're at least looking at the fact that zealots pretty much destroy roaches
On July 17 2019 06:06 Z3nith wrote: The Stats game really showed how bad it was. Stats was on skytoss comp while limiting the zerg bases and ended up on a 20k bank. Played the cleanest play against it that I've seen, minimising losses as much as possible. Still lost.
That game highlighted the problem with how powerful infested terrans are.
Even those brilliant disruptor moves and some good hits on those infestors didn't make a difference - Stats actually played great and really tried everything against it. Meanwhile the Z was just sitting back on no bases and 20 minerals and gas not giving a shit. Ridiculous :D
On July 17 2019 06:09 sneakyfox wrote: So they pretty much kept the entire first package of changes, except for WP, meaning that testing two different sets of changes is not going to happen after all.
Most of the changes they kept from set #1 are great though, although I'm very surprised they kept the stim change.
The new WP changes (nerf range, increase cost) seem very reasonable and not like that bombshell the first change was.
I guess the new Ghost upgrade is supposed to counter mass Infestor, but I have no idea what's going to counter them for Protoss. Yeah, so I agree with everybody else that Protoss are getting slaughtered in here, and Zerg imba lategame is untouched. Weird decision by blizzard.
Stop saying late game Zerg is untouched, that isn't true. Appropriately balanced? That's another story, but they DID in fact touch it.
Technically you're right of course, but it's almost semantics. Fixing the infestor bug is such a small change. And does not touch neural at all. Virtually unchanged.
On July 17 2019 04:50 Charoisaur wrote: I don't understand why they want to nerf Protoss so hard. They overperformed in 2 tournaments this year but now it seems like the other races have already adapted with Dark winning GSL and WCS being a ZvZ finals. If this goes through Protoss will be very weak at the Pro level.
1) They didn't put that in the game yet, it's in the works 2) They're touching a thing that should have been discussed a long time ago. The WP insta warp in is a bad thing design wise, pick up range is ridiculous. But I believe this won't get through and they leave this for the big Blizzard patch
On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do
o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game
Not even sure where to begin with this. Hero losing 3 WP to turrets actually displays an appropriate response to warp prism harass lol. How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army? Other races don't habve the benefit of scans lol. I mean hell when I play T it happens to me all the time. Really T isnt even in this equation right now or shouldn't be. We are talking about how these nerfs make PvZ even more unwinnable. This guy sounds like according to him T should never lose a game!
If you open with cyclones and don’t lose them they should always be patrolling your main, they’re basically useless in any other capacity. Artosis and NoRegret even highlighted a Maru game where they were joking about his cyclone ended up F2ed and eventually stuck on a watchtower to die, and Maru’s pretty damn good last I checked.
Not going to be a foolproof screen by any means but it’s the best use of cyclones once out of the early game, assuming you’re transitioning to bio rather than going battlemech.
Interestingly enough, they put this exact same change in the balance test server in September of last year, citing the strength of Archon drop builds at the time:
Warp Prisms received a ranged pickup in Legacy of the Void, and for the most part, we enjoy how it’s worked out so far. Top Protoss players are able to show off their micro abilities, and it helps promote multipronged offensive options.
One area we feel could see some improvement on is the ability for Zerg players ward off Warp Prism/Archon openings. Currently, the combined range of the Prism pickup and the Archon is 9, which outranges the Queen’s anti-air attack by 1. We’d like to reduce pickup range by 1 to allow Queens to interact more meaningfully with Warp Prism play.
We believe this change could help open up many different potential Zerg openers, but we’re also mindful of the fact that Protoss players rely heavily on Warp Prism based tactics. Thus, we’ll be keeping an especially close eye on this change.
However, the change was reverted a few weeks later, but the reasoning was rather vague.
After reviewing feedback, we have decided to revert the pick-up range from 5 to 6 as we’d like for all races to feel like they have strong options out of the gate with the new patch.
On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do
o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game
How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army?
please link me the VOD of a code-S terran losing loaded medivacs to photon cannons (and only photon cannons). please link me the VOD of a code-S purposefully flying loaded medivacs over a protoss army. seems ridiculous? because it doesn't happen
there's your equivalence of herO losing 3 warp prism in a row to nothing but turrets. he could have turned the prism around, but he didn't even bother. if terrans deployed medivacs to that degree of carelessness, the game is pretty much immediately over
On July 17 2019 05:26 Xain0n wrote: not sure if increasing the cost of Warp Prism is needed and that charge nerf is dubious at best.
Whiners have been complaining so much that Blizzard now wants to nerf Protoss to the ground...
I think the changes are good, they do a lot to open more strategies and do a lot to dimish the capacity protoss has to deny defenders advantage (IE: Using a prism to spam 15 zealot after a battle or inside a base) without limiting their over all diversity.
I do think these changes will require some counter balancing, specially vs zerg lategame who would still be quite strong and terran mid game all ings. But overall I agree with the changes from a design perspective. Only the stim buff I don't agree, terran is much more fun to play and watch when the openings and early game are varied not when everybody is trying to get the fastest stim timing.
Changes that would be interesting to test IMHO are:
- Blink research: Blink and stalkers are a good part of protoss that are very interesting, they're units that create fun intereactions and are currently hardly opressive. Its also a very important upgrade that helps control the map and stop tank pushes. How it should be buffed would depend if stim is buffed or not. Also maybe even buffing its attack speed a bit (attached to blink ofc) to offset the loss of the DPS on charge.
- Change infestor supply from 2 to 3: I love my spellcasters as anybody else but having lategame armies that are just massed casters is a no go honestly.
I'm not as knowleadgeable for ZvP as TvP but I like the WP/zealot nerf and I like stalkers vs terran and I think that would made more sense as its a high micro/multitask unit that its much more interesting to watch and play against that zealots.
really disappointed they're reverting the warp prism change - i think it would've been good for gameplay design reasons, and they should've made an effort to balance around it
On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do
o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game
Not even sure where to begin with this. Hero losing 3 WP to turrets actually displays an appropriate response to warp prism harass lol. How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army? Other races don't habve the benefit of scans lol. I mean hell when I play T it happens to me all the time. Really T isnt even in this equation right now or shouldn't be. We are talking about how these nerfs make PvZ even more unwinnable. This guy sounds like according to him T should never lose a game!
If you open with cyclones and don’t lose them they should always be patrolling your main, they’re basically useless in any other capacity. Artosis and NoRegret even highlighted a Maru game where they were joking about his cyclone ended up F2ed and eventually stuck on a watchtower to die, and Maru’s pretty damn good last I checked.
nah. T needs the cyclone in order to push across the map vs blink. P can't pick off so many marines if you bring the cyclone along in your main army. 150 / 100 / 3 supply is a big investment and only has a ~33% chance of being in the patrol range of a warp prism on most maps (e.g. on Cyber Forest, there are 3 entry points). imagine asking a top 3 protoss to park an immortal in his main base for the entire game, just in case a roach turns up bring the cyclone with your army = guaranteed damage. leave the cyclone at home = potentially doesn't fire a single shot for the rest of the game. maybe it's a good idea in T3 diamond league to leave a cyclone at home
On July 17 2019 06:09 sneakyfox wrote: So they pretty much kept the entire first package of changes, except for WP, meaning that testing two different sets of changes is not going to happen after all.
Most of the changes they kept from set #1 are great though, although I'm very surprised they kept the stim change.
The new WP changes (nerf range, increase cost) seem very reasonable and not like that bombshell the first change was.
I guess the new Ghost upgrade is supposed to counter mass Infestor, but I have no idea what's going to counter them for Protoss. Yeah, so I agree with everybody else that Protoss are getting slaughtered in here, and Zerg imba lategame is untouched. Weird decision by blizzard.
Stop saying late game Zerg is untouched, that isn't true. Appropriately balanced? That's another story, but they DID in fact touch it.
On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do
o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game
Not even sure where to begin with this. Hero losing 3 WP to turrets actually displays an appropriate response to warp prism harass lol. How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army? Other races don't habve the benefit of scans lol. I mean hell when I play T it happens to me all the time. Really T isnt even in this equation right now or shouldn't be. We are talking about how these nerfs make PvZ even more unwinnable. This guy sounds like according to him T should never lose a game!
This is such a funny thing to say, the whole point is that protoss doesn't need scans. Even IF they could scan, they wouldn't. You know why? A scan costs more than a warp prism, let that sink in for a moment. terran should do all this crazy defense for a unit that is easy to make and cheaper than a scan. Its so cheap its not worth microing properly unless P is allining.
Terrans have to actually scan and properly micro because two full medivacs are worth 10 times the value of a wp. Terran loses the medivacs and its gg, protoss loses the wp and he makes another, and then another and then another......
On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do
o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game
How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army?
please link me the VOD of a code-S terran losing loaded medivacs to photon cannons (and only photon cannons). please link me the VOD of a code-S purposefully flying loaded medivacs over a protoss army. seems ridiculous? because it doesn't happen
there's your equivalence of herO losing 3 warp prism in a row to nothing but turrets. he could have turned the prism around, but he didn't even bother. if terrans deployed medivacs to that degree of carelessness, the game is pretty much immediately over
They’re not equivalent though, herO losing some prisms in that phase of the game is more in line with Zergs losing a bunch of nyduses that get spotted and killed, long as you get one up it can be worth it. You’ve got enough cash and the potential damage is huge, it’s sloppy to lose a few to turrets sure but well, get one in and it can be worth it.
Suiciding hellions is a long Terran staple, shift clicking libs and losing them to spores happens all the time even in Code S.
These p change seems more reasonable, wonder how it will go. As for the infestor, I honestly think should just remove it and balance zerg around the viper, maybe buff spores even, IDK but the units just seems impossible to get right, it ocsilate between useless and match up breaking + it makes for shitty games.
The balance team can do miracle (never thought I see a nicelly balanced raven) but maybe it's time to start in new on this one
On July 17 2019 05:22 ImSquanchnHere wrote: Zergs win every major tournament and they want to nerf toss lol
On July 17 2019 05:32 Penev wrote: Blizzard is lagging behind events as per usual also I called the ovie speed cost reduction!
yeah yeah I'm sure I wasn't the only one and I'm sure it was bound to happen etc but I still called it damn you suckers (;
On July 17 2019 05:57 -KG- wrote: I really don't get it. We had an overweight of P in RO8 in the GSL super tournament but in the bigger picture P hasn't won sh*t of the premier tournaments in both 2018 and 2019. And yet, all Blizz can focus on is rather big nerfs to P and buffs to the other races. There was a game earlier today on Stats' stream that displayed just how overpowered and completely un-engageable mass infestors are right now - how can this not be the main issue in terms of balance right now?
Agree on this, it's kinda silly. We're still looking at changes that are specifically designed to make P winrates in both PvT and PvZ take a dive despite the statistics not agreeing with it - it seems to be driven by whine from part of the community more than actual data.
On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do
o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game
How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army?
please link me the VOD of a code-S terran losing loaded medivacs to photon cannons (and only photon cannons). please link me the VOD of a code-S purposefully flying loaded medivacs over a protoss army. seems ridiculous? because it doesn't happen
there's your equivalence of herO losing 3 warp prism in a row to nothing but turrets. he could have turned the prism around, but he didn't even bother. if terrans deployed medivacs to that degree of carelessness, the game is pretty much immediately over
They’re not equivalent though, herO losing some prisms in that phase of the game is more in line with Zergs losing a bunch of nyduses that get spotted and killed, long as you get one up it can be worth it. You’ve got enough cash and the potential damage is huge, it’s sloppy to lose a few to turrets sure but well, get one in and it can be worth it.
Suiciding hellions is a long Terran staple, shift clicking libs and losing them to spores happens all the time even in Code S.
Where do this thinking that terran can just suicide units come from? Terran is most likely to dive in for kills because its the race that depends the most on being aggressive and slowing the enemy down but that doesn't means that terran can just throw units while other races (specially P) are so hurt for every single one.
They are very equivalent, losing units hurts every race, a lib cost the same as a oracle and thinking that terran can just throw them is just stupid.
I like these way more, still a bit worried about Ghost getting upper hand on infestors, but the Ovi speed more than makes up for it, the stim is great, as I usually decide to go a bio route on a whim and the 2 minute stim wait is crazy. The WP change is really smart, the cost stings a bit, but it's not a huge deal, pickup range needed to be nerfed and it was really the mass of zealots appearing out of nowhere and wreaking havoc that was the bad thing, so removing the bonus from charge fixes that while not affecting other strategies, plus I get better carriers. Don't like the recall nerf though. Overall, these are changes for the better .
On July 17 2019 07:17 Nakajin wrote: These p change seems more reasonable, wonder how it will go. As for the infestor, I honestly think should just remove it and balance zerg around the viper, maybe buff spores even, IDK but the units just seems impossible to get right, it ocsilate between useless and match up breaking + it makes for shitty games.
The balance team can do miracle (never thought I see a nicelly balanced raven) but maybe it's time to start in new on this one
I’d worry of a few things if we’re to go down this rabbithole, although I do agree on the infestor.
Without the infestor filling its current niche BCs get pretty insane to deal with. Maybe airtoss as well. The infestor is a bit like the prism to me, in isolation it’s way too bloody good, equally the race kind of needs it to stay competitive without sweeping changes elsewhere.
Outside of practicalities such as actually getting them and in good numbers BCs are a pretty broken unit in their current state.
On July 17 2019 04:05 Vindicare605 wrote: Overall these look much better than the original group, although I'm personally surprised that Blizz is still going through with the Stim buff. I guess in testing it wasn't as radical of a change as I originally had thought.
The Infestor bug intrigues me though. If Infested Terrans really were ignoring armor before, that would explain why they were so damn strong vs Carriers. Since that's going in as a hotfix we'll get to see right away if Infested Terrans need further nerfing.
infestor bug is something should be fixed right now! it should ve been fixed ever since the day one random reddit dude found it out! not until the balance patch company like riot or valve fixes bugs in thier MOBA game in no time but in the mean time,the balance team is chilling with dem pro players s replays instead this is unacceptable
On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote: Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update.
in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do
o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game
How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army?
please link me the VOD of a code-S terran losing loaded medivacs to photon cannons (and only photon cannons). please link me the VOD of a code-S purposefully flying loaded medivacs over a protoss army. seems ridiculous? because it doesn't happen
there's your equivalence of herO losing 3 warp prism in a row to nothing but turrets. he could have turned the prism around, but he didn't even bother. if terrans deployed medivacs to that degree of carelessness, the game is pretty much immediately over
They’re not equivalent though, herO losing some prisms in that phase of the game is more in line with Zergs losing a bunch of nyduses that get spotted and killed, long as you get one up it can be worth it. You’ve got enough cash and the potential damage is huge, it’s sloppy to lose a few to turrets sure but well, get one in and it can be worth it.
Suiciding hellions is a long Terran staple, shift clicking libs and losing them to spores happens all the time even in Code S.
Where do this thinking that terran can just suicide units come from? Terran is most likely to dive in for kills because its the race that depends the most on being aggressive and slowing the enemy down but that doesn't means that terran can just throw units while other races (specially P) are so hurt for every single one.
They are very equivalent, losing units hurts every race, a lib cost the same as a oracle and thinking that terran can just throw them is just stupid.
Specifically late game liberators, should have clarified that.
Units have different value and importance depending on the phase of the game and how they fit in.
Losing your initial oracles is terrible because generally you don’t want to rebuild them, so you want max utility out of them and keep them alive as they’re versatile units. herO losing some backstab prisms, not ideal but not a disaster either.
Terrans run hellions into mineral lines and do as much damage as they can to drones before getting killed, it’s often worth it as a play but a suicide run nonetheless no?
The protoss nerfs seem like a lot. Protoss isn't even doing that well all things considered. I like the pickup range nerf, but pretending that this carrier buff is gonna even things out is a joke.
I’m a bit concerned about the ovi speed cost reduction. OvI speed is extremely strong in general, it also makes it more affordable to get when going for roach ravager allins, if you can’t deny high ground vision these allins would be much stronger. Zerg already have an information advantage as part of thier race but if you make the other races unable to deny that information than it will put balance out of whack, either it will kill allins and let zerg greed heavily, or the allins will have to be buffed to busted levels like the immortal Allin is at right now, allins should not be so strong that if you know they are coming, scout them early,prepare correctly, and control well they can still kill you. I think their are to many allins that are this way as is in the current patch, we don’t want a reaction down the road to balance zergs undeniable omnipresent vision of your base for the first 5 minutes of the game.
I don’t think the prism cost increase on the other hand is big enough to matter, the unit is still just to risk free compare the cost of loosing the prism to the cost of loosing 2 medivacs both deliver the same number of units to your base but one costs 1000/200 if both medivacs are lost the other costs 200 minerals, a 50 mineral increase is a drop in the pond.
I do think the zealot nerf is a good idea. Bringing down down the power of zealots will reduce the strength of ridicules builds like the Margery in zvp and the strength of fast upgrades and a fast third into mass gateway in Pvt, both of which are very overtuned and make toss feel very oppressive both at the lower levels of play like masters and the pro level. It would also help make the mass prism warping less oppressive since they no longer unleash massive burst damage the instant they finish.
It's strange I've seen a lot of complaints about cannon rushes lately in every place (tl.net, reddit, and b.net forums). I assume this is f2p people that have never played Starcraft before. Cannon rushes are as old as time itself.
Wasn't the whole point of adding dmg to the initial charge to have chargelots be used again? Looks like it's going to be back to phoenix adept in PVT. I think the dmg nerf is too much without a competent buff on something else. Zerg has a lot of scouting potential as is, and now making overlord speed cheaper will make their all ins stronger as keeping highground vision will be pretty easy and for protoss back into stargate openers every game again. Infestor is not addressed aside from fixing a bug that was supposed to be fixed back in 2017? I think feedback nerf needs to seriously be reconsidered and reverted.
On July 17 2019 08:52 alexanderzero wrote: It's strange I've seen a lot of complaints about cannon rushes lately in every place (tl.net, reddit, and b.net forums). I assume this is f2p people that have never played Starcraft before. Cannon rushes are as old as time itself.
I mean they are one of those builds that’s low exicution but high reward so they are going to be complained about by new players till the end of time. Hell I still see them and lose to them occasionally in masters if my follow up reaction lines up badly with theirs
On July 17 2019 08:58 ForsakenSC2 wrote: Wasn't the whole point of adding dmg to the initial charge to have chargelots be used again? Looks like it's going to be back to phoenix adept in PVT. I think the dmg nerf is too much without a competent buff on something else. Zerg has a lot of scouting potential as is, and now making overlord speed cheaper will make their all ins stronger as keeping highground vision will be pretty easy and for protoss back into stargate openers every game again. Infestor is not addressed aside from fixing a bug that was supposed to be fixed back in 2017? I think feedback nerf needs to seriously be reconsidered and reverted.
Im not sure it’s possible without breaking tvz but I would really like to see the overall power level of both Protoss and Zerg late game air+caster deathballs scaled down so that we would see more midgame interactions. I would much rather see hydra lurker vs stalker disruptor for instance than skytoss vs infestor broodlord. Sc2s lategame is just not that fun in my opinion after playing 10k games of it many in masters. But I’m not sure how this ever gets fixed. Sc2 has always been at its best when the game is about midgame armies, muta ling bane,roach ravager, 4m, marine tank,blink stalker collosi, crazy Protoss bullshit ect. It just slows down a lot late game into these long turtles games. I can respect players like TY, Serral, ect that are good at playing these situations out but from a viewer perspective I would much prefer a long drawn out midgame in literally evrey mu in the game.
On July 17 2019 08:58 ForsakenSC2 wrote: Wasn't the whole point of adding dmg to the initial charge to have chargelots be used again? Looks like it's going to be back to phoenix adept in PVT. I think the dmg nerf is too much without a competent buff on something else. Zerg has a lot of scouting potential as is, and now making overlord speed cheaper will make their all ins stronger as keeping highground vision will be pretty easy and for protoss back into stargate openers every game again. Infestor is not addressed aside from fixing a bug that was supposed to be fixed back in 2017? I think feedback nerf needs to seriously be reconsidered and reverted.
Im not sure it’s possible without breaking tvz but I would really like to see the overall power level of both Protoss and Zerg late game air+caster deathballs scaled down so that we would see more midgame interactions. I would much rather see hydra lurker vs stalker disruptor for instance than skytoss vs infestor broodlord. Sc2s lategame is just not that fun in my opinion after playing 10k games of it many in masters. But I’m not sure how this ever gets fixed. Sc2 has always been at its best when the game is about midgame armies, muta ling bane,roach ravager, 4m, marine tank,blink stalker collosi, crazy Protoss bullshit ect. It just slows down a lot late game into these long turtles games. I can respect players like TY, Serral, ect that are good at playing these situations out but from a viewer perspective I would much prefer a long drawn out midgame in literally evrey mu in the game.
I've thought for ages that they should increase the supply of massive air units to nerf air deathballs, 6 supply to 8. I agree it's the worst part of sc2, by far.
On July 17 2019 08:58 ForsakenSC2 wrote: Wasn't the whole point of adding dmg to the initial charge to have chargelots be used again? Looks like it's going to be back to phoenix adept in PVT. I think the dmg nerf is too much without a competent buff on something else. Zerg has a lot of scouting potential as is, and now making overlord speed cheaper will make their all ins stronger as keeping highground vision will be pretty easy and for protoss back into stargate openers every game again. Infestor is not addressed aside from fixing a bug that was supposed to be fixed back in 2017? I think feedback nerf needs to seriously be reconsidered and reverted.
Im not sure it’s possible without breaking tvz but I would really like to see the overall power level of both Protoss and Zerg late game air+caster deathballs scaled down so that we would see more midgame interactions. I would much rather see hydra lurker vs stalker disruptor for instance than skytoss vs infestor broodlord. Sc2s lategame is just not that fun in my opinion after playing 10k games of it many in masters. But I’m not sure how this ever gets fixed. Sc2 has always been at its best when the game is about midgame armies, muta ling bane,roach ravager, 4m, marine tank,blink stalker collosi, crazy Protoss bullshit ect. It just slows down a lot late game into these long turtles games. I can respect players like TY, Serral, ect that are good at playing these situations out but from a viewer perspective I would much prefer a long drawn out midgame in literally evrey mu in the game.
Air deathballs being less of a factor I would absolutely love, as you say kind of hard to do though.
In general I like air units to be harass/skirmish kind of units, their ability to circumvent terrain considerations being balanced by them not being able to fight straight into things.
Plus the way airballs can overlap and clump in a way ground units don’t both looks stupid, also makes it visually difficult to target fire at times as well
At this point I would just say encourage it guys just encourage any Protoss nerf so maybe Blizzard for once will realize they have to hire people who know what they are doing who can make the best decisions for the game without having to rely on community crybaby politics to make balance decisions.
On July 17 2019 07:17 Nakajin wrote: These p change seems more reasonable, wonder how it will go. As for the infestor, I honestly think should just remove it and balance zerg around the viper, maybe buff spores even, IDK but the units just seems impossible to get right, it ocsilate between useless and match up breaking + it makes for shitty games.
The balance team can do miracle (never thought I see a nicelly balanced raven) but maybe it's time to start in new on this one
I’d worry of a few things if we’re to go down this rabbithole, although I do agree on the infestor.
Without the infestor filling its current niche BCs get pretty insane to deal with. Maybe airtoss as well. The infestor is a bit like the prism to me, in isolation it’s way too bloody good, equally the race kind of needs it to stay competitive without sweeping changes elsewhere.
Outside of practicalities such as actually getting them and in good numbers BCs are a pretty broken unit in their current state.
As a terran player I would tend to agree about bcs, I think that they are not necessarily overpowered since getting them in large and abusive numbers before dieing is prity hard. But conversely I don't think infinite value trading units are good for the game, swarmhosts are bad for the game, infestors are bad for the game, old ravens were bad for the game, bcs are bad for the game. Units that trade nothing for something consistently, and reliably are bad for the game in general.
I'm more ok with vipers, ghosts, and HTS because all these units have some inherent and appropriate risk involved that makes them less oppressive, vipers can abduct but thier is counterplay, ghosts can snipe but their is counter play, hts can feedback and storm but their is counter play. the only counterplay to mass bcs if Terran got their on a good economy is infestors for zerg, ravens for terran and nothing for protoss, and even than infestors and ravens dont deal with them all that well if they reach critical mass. Other than that the counter play is to kill them if they try this transition, currently that is very possible in all match ups but if balance ever tilts terran's way I think it will be broodlord infestor levels of overpowered
Currently Terran lean alot on the strength of bcs in late game tvp so I would definitely not encourage nerfing them without addressing other late game imbalance, just like I would not encourage nerfing toss without addressing infestors. But I think long term having teleport and a sniping spell on an extremely tanky flying unit is just not a good combination for engaging and healthy gameplay.
On July 17 2019 08:58 ForsakenSC2 wrote: Wasn't the whole point of adding dmg to the initial charge to have chargelots be used again? Looks like it's going to be back to phoenix adept in PVT. I think the dmg nerf is too much without a competent buff on something else. Zerg has a lot of scouting potential as is, and now making overlord speed cheaper will make their all ins stronger as keeping highground vision will be pretty easy and for protoss back into stargate openers every game again. Infestor is not addressed aside from fixing a bug that was supposed to be fixed back in 2017? I think feedback nerf needs to seriously be reconsidered and reverted.
Im not sure it’s possible without breaking tvz but I would really like to see the overall power level of both Protoss and Zerg late game air+caster deathballs scaled down so that we would see more midgame interactions. I would much rather see hydra lurker vs stalker disruptor for instance than skytoss vs infestor broodlord. Sc2s lategame is just not that fun in my opinion after playing 10k games of it many in masters. But I’m not sure how this ever gets fixed. Sc2 has always been at its best when the game is about midgame armies, muta ling bane,roach ravager, 4m, marine tank,blink stalker collosi, crazy Protoss bullshit ect. It just slows down a lot late game into these long turtles games. I can respect players like TY, Serral, ect that are good at playing these situations out but from a viewer perspective I would much prefer a long drawn out midgame in literally evrey mu in the game.
I totally agree with the viewer perspective portion. I do not enjoy watching lategame pvz when it happens either. It's just a long drawn out game and we all know how it's going to end. I'm not sure how they can balance it. Throughout all of sc2 something from either race (late game wise) that has been either very strong or nerfed and then weak compared to the other races. I think though that reverting feedback and maybe considering tempest range to be increased vs ground to 9, to at least compliment NP. But without testing I wouldn't know how this would affect pvt. Also with the chargelot nerf for PvT, considering upgrade time was nerfed and now chargelots being nerfed, stimpack being buffed, I'm honestly scared for early game pushes. Strong as they are already, I feel it's going to be even tougher to hold. I just think based off a high protoss count in Super Tournament and a season of GSL, it's a little crazy for all these nerfs based off a small sample size. That's typical Blizzard though, rush on changes that either no one asked for or targeting certain things without letting things settle.
On July 17 2019 05:57 Ryu3600 wrote: Vikings are armored units that do not start with 1 armor, Oracles are armored units that do not start with 1 armor either
The first set is better for sure. Zerg players now seem to have the upper hand or have broken even with Protoss and the pickup range is a far bigger problem in TvP than in TvZ. Charge is an essential upgrade for Zealots to hold a large ammount of Terran pushes, nerfing it while buffing stim in the same patch might be dangerous. Pick one of the changes, Zealot should be the one in my opinion.
I can't comprehend how they think the prism change will effect anything.
1. Strategies revolving around warp prism micro usually involve getting the upgrade anyways. 2. The pick up range is the MAIN ISSUE with the warp prism being an unfair unit. 3. Why increase the minerals?? Why doesn't this unit cost at least some gas?
I just played 3 games....2 were failed cannon rushes that I easily defended and the other i got 12 pooled and shut the game off. There has to be some kind of way to discourage this style of play. These minor adjustments might change strategies at the highest level, but people are just gonna do their yolo all in builds on the ladder all day long.
This game is just not fun to play at any level anymore. Its really unfortunate.
On July 17 2019 04:05 Vindicare605 wrote: Overall these look much better than the original group, although I'm personally surprised that Blizz is still going through with the Stim buff. I guess in testing it wasn't as radical of a change as I originally had thought.
The Infestor bug intrigues me though. If Infested Terrans really were ignoring armor before, that would explain why they were so damn strong vs Carriers. Since that's going in as a hotfix we'll get to see right away if Infested Terrans need further nerfing.
infestor bug is something should be fixed right now! it should ve been fixed ever since the day one random reddit dude found it out! not until the balance patch company like riot or valve fixes bugs in thier MOBA game in no time but in the mean time,the balance team is chilling with dem pro players s replays instead this is unacceptable
They said in the post they'd be rolling it out in a hotfix. When that hotfix is I'm not sure, but it will be before the patch. If we're lucky it will be this week.
On July 17 2019 07:17 Nakajin wrote: These p change seems more reasonable, wonder how it will go. As for the infestor, I honestly think should just remove it and balance zerg around the viper, maybe buff spores even, IDK but the units just seems impossible to get right, it ocsilate between useless and match up breaking + it makes for shitty games.
The balance team can do miracle (never thought I see a nicelly balanced raven) but maybe it's time to start in new on this one
I’d worry of a few things if we’re to go down this rabbithole, although I do agree on the infestor.
Without the infestor filling its current niche BCs get pretty insane to deal with. Maybe airtoss as well. The infestor is a bit like the prism to me, in isolation it’s way too bloody good, equally the race kind of needs it to stay competitive without sweeping changes elsewhere.
Outside of practicalities such as actually getting them and in good numbers BCs are a pretty broken unit in their current state.
As a terran player I would tend to agree about bcs, I think that they are not necessarily overpowered since getting them in large and abusive numbers before dieing is prity hard. But conversely I don't think infinite value trading units are good for the game, swarmhosts are bad for the game, infestors are bad for the game, old ravens were bad for the game, bcs are bad for the game. Units that trade nothing for something consistently, and reliably are bad for the game in general.
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I'm not sure I understand your logic in putting BCs in that group with the others. Yamato trading is hardly free, there's a big wind up on the spell, and it has a significant cooldown. Yamato + Tactical Jump has a big cooldown. Those two things are very different from Swarm Hosts and Infested Terran spam. Also as you rightfully pointed out, there is the massive cost in both resources and supply that go into making the Battlecruiser, which makes its power scaling fundamentally different from a caster like the Raven or Infestor.
Besides, even with BCs being as strong as they are right now, Corruptors still eat them for lunch. You can't just trade forever with them and not get punished for it like you can with Infestors.
BCs vs Zerg would need to be looked at again if Infestors are nerfed, but it won't be because of "free trading" it'd be more along the lines of how well can a Zerg stop a maxed out fleet of Battlecruisers/Ravens and Vikings which is a balancing act I'm sure they run in testing all the time. End game army balance always needs to be tight, but like I said already ,BCs are the most expensive unit in the game already aside from the Mothership. If they aren't strong then they aren't worth spending the money on.
Good balance patch by Blizzard. Just a reminder that 7 out of 8 players in the GSL Super Tournament quarterfinals were Protoss, the first time that 7 out of 8 players were the same race for a premier Korean Tournament for SC2 and BW, and BW pro tournaments go back to 1999.
Think of that, we have never had 7 out of 8 players as the same race in the quarterfinals of a SC2 or BW premier Korean tournament before, for some 20 years since the start of pro Korean Starcraft, until the last GSL Super Tournament.
Then you have more Protoss qualifying than other races for the GSL Super Tournament, and GSL Season 1 and GSL Season 2, making the GSL become the GPL = Global Protoss League. This is a well needed patch to balance the game. Good patch Blizzard.
As protoss, I think 1st versuion of WP change is better then 2nd. While 1st kills some early game builds, its still adaptable and can be restored with good upgrade, but now its cost nerf (all game duration affected), range nerf (early-mid game effect), and zealot nerf included (core battle unit for early game).
PS. Summary: these changes are good if no zerg race existed. PvZ unplayable/
This looks a bit better to me. Im really not sure how big the minus 1 range will end up being on WP but hope it will be more than making the units warp in slower to the fight. Killing / Forcing retreat of the prism is the only way to really stop these all ins..u just die slower to slower warping in units if u dont kill it . I think the infested terran nerf (or bug fix call it what you want but its a nerf relative to how the game has been presently) along with the interceptor change will help balance out late game PvZ about as much as I think the -1 range will help out zerg early game vs clown all ins (juggling). Not a whole lot in either case .. I would have liked to see bigger changes in both regards but this is in the right direction. I'm really not a fan of the overlord speed openers regardless of whether they cost 100/100 or 75/75. All this is doing is putting even more meta gaming into the matchup since there are openings from Toss that counter OS openings from Z. The infestor change for tvz tho worries me some especially with a ghost buff. The cyclone mech styles will have plus 3 armor super early and IT / neural is such a huge part of dealing with the late game transition into thor liberator ghost BC. Less damage on IT and bonus radius on emp could end up in a horror show. Ill cease and desist commenting on PvT bc Im sure its a broken record at this point. The matchup is bad. These changes wont fix it.. the matchup needs a complete reset.
I'm so disappointed that Blizzard is once again backpedaling on an admittedly bold proposed change. The warp prism is a fundamentally badly designed unit with a reinforcement mechanic that breaks defender's advantage as well as introduce low risk/high rewards scenari. Nerfing warp-in speed would address both of those problems.
Instead of that, we're now facing a completely useless 50 minerals cost increase, a pick-up range nerf that won't do much to discourage protoss all-ins but will make roach/ravagers timings even more difficult to hold for protoss, and a charge nerf that, combined with the stim buff, could completely throw PvT balance out the window.
Even more disappointing is that most people seem to agree that the second set of proposed changes is better as it is more "reasonable". Unreasonable units and mechanics require unreasonable changes. Protoss matchups were plagued for years with terribly designed mechanics such as the mothership core and the nexus overcharge. I think we can all agree that shield batteries are a more elegant solution and the game is now better for it.
To me the 3 biggest problems in the game design-wise (and not balance-wise) are the warp prism, nydus and BCs. First two nullifying defender's advantage and being a low risk / high reward decision, BCs for the reasons people mentioned earlier. BCs are not OP per se but the ability to snipe units and retreat for free with almost no counter play is bad design. Problem is terran is not favored in both tvp and tvz and BCs are a crutch for terran's late game problems.
Now balance-wise, I still think tvp is slightly protoss favored, but nerfing charge and buffing stim is most certainly not the way to fix it when the core issues are economy discrepancy and late game. Regarding pvz, infestor is obviously a joke at the moment and needs to be nerfed, and pretending that fixing the armor bug on the infested terran and buffing interceptor build time will fix the matchup is foolish to say the least.
This last update killed my remaining hopes to see a better designed game before the end of the year patch. If Blizzard is not ready to introduce meaningful design changes in a middle of the year patch, then don't get people's hopes up and just buff bunker's build time instead!
On July 17 2019 12:51 fastr wrote: I'm so disappointed that Blizzard is once again backpedaling on an admittedly bold proposed change. The warp prism is a fundamentally badly designed unit with a reinforcement mechanic that breaks defender's advantage as well as introduce low risk/high rewards scenari. Nerfing warp-in speed would address both of those problems.
Instead of that, we're now facing a completely useless 50 minerals cost increase, a pick-up range nerf that won't do much to discourage protoss all-ins but will make roach/ravagers timings even more difficult to hold for protoss, and a charge nerf that, combined with the stim buff, could completely throw PvT balance out the window.
Even more disappointing is that most people seem to agree that the second set of proposed changes is better as it is more "reasonable". Unreasonable units and mechanics require unreasonable changes. Protoss matchups were plagued for years with terribly designed mechanics such as the mothership core and the nexus overcharge. I think we can all agree that shield batteries are a more elegant solution and the game is now better for it.
To me the 3 biggest problems in the game design-wise (and not balance-wise) are the warp prism, nydus and BCs. First two nullifying defender's advantage and being a low risk / high reward decision, BCs for the reasons people mentioned earlier. BCs are not OP per se but the ability to snipe units and retreat for free with almost no counter play is bad design. Problem is terran is not favored in both tvp and tvz and BCs are a crutch for terran's late game problems.
Now balance-wise, I still think tvp is slightly protoss favored, but nerfing charge and buffing stim is most certainly not the way to fix it when the core issues are economy discrepancy and late game. Regarding pvz, infestor is obviously a joke at the moment and needs to be nerfed, and pretending that fixing the armor bug on the infested terran and buffing interceptor build time will fix the matchup is foolish to say the least.
This last update killed my remaining hopes to see a better designed game before the end of the year patch. If Blizzard is not ready to introduce meaningful design changes in a middle of the year patch, then don't get people's hopes up and just buff bunker's build time instead!
Are you serious Yamato is the biggest problem? Snipe for free and retreat? What is Swarm host? What is Disruptors? What is viper Abduct? What is Infested terrans? What is Tempest range? Whole sc2 late game interactions revolve around sniping units for free and thats the units you build or you lose. So terrans builds bc/ghost/vikings/libs, zerg builds bl/infestor/queen/viper/spore, toss builds tempest/carrier/ht/disruptor. The problem is that balance is favored into zerg side without counter play. Every unit in Z army is as fast as stimmed marines except BL, you must fight the army, they also have the nydus just in case...
On July 17 2019 12:51 fastr wrote: I'm so disappointed that Blizzard is once again backpedaling on an admittedly bold proposed change. The warp prism is a fundamentally badly designed unit with a reinforcement mechanic that breaks defender's advantage as well as introduce low risk/high rewards scenari. Nerfing warp-in speed would address both of those problems.
Instead of that, we're now facing a completely useless 50 minerals cost increase, a pick-up range nerf that won't do much to discourage protoss all-ins but will make roach/ravagers timings even more difficult to hold for protoss, and a charge nerf that, combined with the stim buff, could completely throw PvT balance out the window.
I agree. I had issues with their last version of the proposed patch, but the one thing I agreed on was the warp prism warp-in speed change. That change made a lot of sense. It slowed down all-ins to be more manageable but didn't kill the utility of the unit.
Warp prism micro is key for situations like holding all-ins or doing harass. With one less pickup range, queens now will be able to comfortably target warp prisms when someone opens with archon drop. This reason was why they decided not to change warp prism pickup range before when they previously proposed this exact change in a previous patch. Reducing pickup range while not dealing with fast warp ins reduces available harass and defence options but doesn't actually do anything to solve the all-in problem.
Likewise, nerfing one of the only basic core gateway units that has any utility past the 10 minute mark seems like a bad idea. This relates to something I pointed out in the previous thread. Of the 4 core gateway units, only zealots, and to a lesser extent stalkers, consistently get used at all past the early-mid game. Sentries and adepts are seldom if ever used once the third is established and higher tech is started. It'd be great to see some lategame upgrades to make these unused units more viable, especially adepts. Anything to make Protoss less reliant on storm, immortals, and mass air. I'd happily take nerfs on any of those things in exchange for there to be the chance of there being more variety in the lategame.
I still think it's going to take much bigger changes to fix lategame PvZ. This infestor change isn't enough. Neural and fungal are both quite potent too because of inability for Protoss to actually deal with infestors.
On July 17 2019 12:29 Couguar wrote: As protoss, I think 1st versuion of WP change is better then 2nd. While 1st kills some early game builds, its still adaptable and can be restored with good upgrade, but now its cost nerf (all game duration affected), range nerf (early-mid game effect), and zealot nerf included (core battle unit for early game).
PS. Summary: these changes are good if no zerg race existed. PvZ unplayable/
The nerf only affects Zealots with Charge. By the time Charge comes online you're already out of the early game. It's a mid and late game nerf.
On July 17 2019 12:51 fastr wrote: , BCs for the reasons people mentioned earlier. BCs are not OP per se but the ability to snipe units and retreat for free with almost no counter play is bad design. Problem is terran is not favored in both tvp and tvz and BCs are a crutch for terran's late game problems.
What other unit is Terran supposed to rely on as a late game unit? Thors?
The BC is the ONLY late game unit that Terran has. It HAS to be strong, or else Terran late game devolves into what it was before BCs got buffed, not really a late game at all, just a turtle fest with midgame units.
That's what it comes down to. The Battlecruiser is the ONLY late game Terran has. If it's a crutch of the match up in the late game, that is by the race's design. The only way you're going to fix that is to fundamentally change the Terran tech tree to make the Raven more powerful and come online later similar to Brood War's Science Vessel, but that would require a complete redesign of the unit.
Not saying that it's not a nice idea, but it's a drastic change that can't be done in the middle of a year patch. For now BCs do what Terran needs them to do, they give the race an ACTUAL late game army composition, when for years it never really had one.
On July 17 2019 04:15 MockHamill wrote: The changes are reasonable and I think better compared the first version. What is missing is: 1. Forge requires gateway in order to discourage cannon rushing. 2. Disruptor range decreased by 1 in order to make the relationship between tanks and disruptors more even. 3. Nydus worm cost changed to 100/75 so that spamming 4-5 worms in your opponents base actually have a drawback. 4. Neural parasite cost changed to 150 energy to better reflect how strong this ability is.
man, you play terran. why are you losing to cannon rushes??
I do not I just consider cannon rushing a joke, it should not even be in the game. It is also close to broken in PvP.
Why shouldn't it? It's just as viable a strategy as any other that perfectly embodies the high risk high reward of cheesy play.
it should be in the game, but it is a little bit silly in pvp. the amount of practiced responses it requires at the start of the game is kind of insane compared to any other early cheese. however what actually causes the problem is adepts. the most obnoxious modern lotv cannon rushes have to do with abusing the 2gate ramp block, which is a counter to adepts.
On July 17 2019 12:29 Couguar wrote: As protoss, I think 1st versuion of WP change is better then 2nd. While 1st kills some early game builds, its still adaptable and can be restored with good upgrade, but now its cost nerf (all game duration affected), range nerf (early-mid game effect), and zealot nerf included (core battle unit for early game).
PS. Summary: these changes are good if no zerg race existed. PvZ unplayable/
The nerf only affects Zealots with Charge. By the time Charge comes online you're already out of the early game. It's a mid and late game nerf.
late game toss has no need for zealots in main army. this change doesnt affect harass (warp-forget). charge is early-mid game grade for battles.
I think bugs should be fixed immediately and balance adjustments can be made accordingly afterwards. The oracle bug staying in the game is something I cannot agree with therefore.
The one change I agreed with and made sense to me was the one that completely gutted Protoss gameplay, eliminated most of their builds and aggressive options while giving nothing in return. I'm an objective sc2 spectator who doesn't have a bias towards either race and I'm very disappointed Blizzard decided against removing 1 race from the game just because of community backlash.
Zerg OP. Yesterday, States had 7bases, 14k rest mineral, and almost 30 carriers. Zerg player just use infected marines clear all of the interceptor. Then States ran out of his money and lose this game.
On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote: Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended.
That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem.
It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored.
Scaling with armor upgrades is gonna be less impactful than the flat damage nerf. The ITs will still shred interceptors and void rays to bits since there's no base armor on them, leaving the cleanup to corruptors.
There's also the problem that there's no real counter play to mass infestor anymore. Feedback doesn't kill them and is outranged by fungal either way. Only other long range ground unit Protoss has is the disruptor which is a play that I'm pretty sure doesn't even qualify as a Hail Mary. So Toss goes into air where they're disadvantaged against Zerg.
Does anyone remember what the reasoning behind the Feedback nerf was? Was it because of Medivacs or was it due to Infestors? I know it had nothing to do with Ghosts.
Just saying, it might be worthwhile to undo that nerf if Infestors are still a problem. The buffs Terran is getting in TvP might offset the impact that Feedback on Medivacs has, which to be honest is THAT big of an issue in the first place IMO. Medivacs only die to Feedback if they have like 70% energy in the first place.
When the Ghost’s Snipe ability was changed to Steady Shot, the Ghost lost the ability to instantly kill a High Templar, but Templars remained very lethal to Ghosts. This change should move this relationship to focus more on energy denial/casting rather than outright lethality. Reducing Feedback’s damage also means that Medivacs will also no longer be instantly destroyed, which promotes more multipronged play in late-game scenarios. Against Zerg, this makes Vipers slightly less fragile, which should allow Zerg a few more chances to try and pull apart a Protoss player’s late-game armies.
I think the Feedback change at that time was pretty necessary. It's a pity though that Feedback is now pretty useless and not worth any APM.
Maybe it would be cool to add a 50% slow to any Feedbacked target? This way the target wouldn't insta die, but be pretty exposed
On July 17 2019 09:06 washikie wrote: [ Im not sure it’s possible without breaking tvz but I would really like to see the overall power level of both Protoss and Zerg late game air+caster deathballs scaled down so that we would see more midgame interactions. I would much rather see hydra lurker vs stalker disruptor for instance than skytoss vs infestor broodlord. Sc2s lategame is just not that fun in my opinion after playing 10k games of it many in masters. But I’m not sure how this ever gets fixed. Sc2 has always been at its best when the game is about midgame armies, muta ling bane,roach ravager, 4m, marine tank,blink stalker collosi, crazy Protoss bullshit ect. It just slows down a lot late game into these long turtles games. I can respect players like TY, Serral, ect that are good at playing these situations out but from a viewer perspective I would much prefer a long drawn out midgame in literally evrey mu in the game.
I really agree with this, put the emphesis on midgame, thats when the game is most fun to play and most fun to watch. The problem is that the race that is favored in late game will try to get there while the race that is not will try to kill the opponent before that point. I don't know how they would do it but if sc2 would be more midgame focused it would improve the game greatly in almost all respects. Maybe nerf the late game units of all races?
On July 17 2019 17:48 Harris1st wrote:
I think the Feedback change at that time was pretty necessary. It's a pity though that Feedback is now pretty useless and not worth any APM.
Maybe it would be cool to add a 50% slow to any Feedbacked target? This way the target wouldn't insta die, but be pretty exposed
This is a great idea, feedback should obviously be worth the apm but the previous feedback was too much vs terran and I don't think having the old feedback would be good for the game.
I've been thinking about theses changes and what jumps out at me is the buff to zerg scouting, buffing zerg scouting is incredibly risky. We are talking about the race that can adapt to any situation and build any number (limited by larvae) of units. Zerg is the race that gains the most from scouting well, is it safe? Drone, is it danger? build whatever units are needed.
Both protoss and terrans are limited in what they can do, if they scout a roach/ravager allin there it is still only possible to make one tank at a time and one immortal at a time. If they scout a safe opening from the opponent they cant speed up worker production (I guess protoss can chrono) but either way no race get as much from scouting as zerg. Buffing zerg scouting is very risky and to that because of zvp together with these proposed changes? That is just bad.
So the reason for warpprism pickup range nerf is because its to risk free, but nydus with 20 swarmhost destroying an entire base without risk is not even in the conversation? What the hell is going on with this game lately
Legacy of the Void, a History of protoss nerfs whatever the state of the game is.
So simply want to remove inmortal chargelot allins. No matter the consecuences on the other matches or zerg learning to stop them efficiently. In fact, want to remove the only effective strategy on zvp.
It's weird they reverted the infested terran nerf and not the steam buff, considering the situation, it should be fixed. Massing a spellcaster in order to win is always terrible.
On July 17 2019 19:13 Dedraterllaerau wrote: So the reason for warpprism pickup range nerf is because its to risk free, but nydus with 20 swarmhost destroying an entire base without risk is not even in the conversation? What the hell is going on with this game lately
20 swarmhost = 60 supply which counts as dead supply for around 58% of the time while the nydus can be destroyed with map control. It's strong but not as op as the free unit narrative makes it believe when you actually think about it.
I like the idea of either an energy cost increase to neural or neural costs energy per second, or infestors have 25 less HP perhaps. Or, you could have something crazy like any allied unit under the effect of a guardian shield cannot be neural parasited,.
On July 17 2019 19:14 EESCLuna wrote: Legacy of the Void, a History of protoss nerfs whatever the state of the game is.
So simply want to remove inmortal chargelot allins. No matter the consecuences on the other matches or zerg learning to stop them efficiently. In fact, want to remove the only effective strategy on zvp.
Uninstalling
so you want zergs to "learn to defend" but you can't learn a second build lol
On July 17 2019 20:18 stilt wrote: It's weird they reverted the infested terran nerf and not the steam buff, considering the situation, it should be fixed. Massing a spellcaster in order to win is always terrible.
On July 17 2019 19:13 Dedraterllaerau wrote: So the reason for warpprism pickup range nerf is because its to risk free, but nydus with 20 swarmhost destroying an entire base without risk is not even in the conversation? What the hell is going on with this game lately
20 swarmhost = 60 supply which counts as dead supply for around 58% of the time while the nydus can be destroyed with map control. It's strong but not as op as the free unit narrative makes it believe when you actually think about it.
By the time you cross the map to attack the CD is ready to be used defensively.
So you see I did think about it and no it is not just strong it is actually OP and also very unhealthy for the game. You can just tell by the strategy itself what horrible game design it is when spamming a Nydus 50 times in one game to "harass" is actually a thing.
On July 17 2019 04:15 MockHamill wrote: The changes are reasonable and I think better compared the first version. What is missing is: 1. Forge requires gateway in order to discourage cannon rushing. 2. Disruptor range decreased by 1 in order to make the relationship between tanks and disruptors more even. 3. Nydus worm cost changed to 100/75 so that spamming 4-5 worms in your opponents base actually have a drawback. 4. Neural parasite cost changed to 150 energy to better reflect how strong this ability is.
How to ruin the game by removing half of the things that make it interesting 101
On July 17 2019 19:14 EESCLuna wrote: Legacy of the Void, a History of protoss nerfs whatever the state of the game is.
So simply want to remove inmortal chargelot allins. No matter the consecuences on the other matches or zerg learning to stop them efficiently. In fact, want to remove the only effective strategy on zvp.
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
On July 18 2019 03:04 Walperin wrote: What do u guys think of AN upgrade for feedback that would increase it dmg? So high templar could kill it with one shot
I mean it basically puts us back to Templar maybe being too good vs enemy casters in real lategame armies, which was itself a bit wonky I think.
I liked the suggestion that feedback would also add a movement debuft, or maybe a brief stun or something. You wouldn’t instantly kill casters but they’d be made a bit vulnerable to being picked off.
Although now I think about it more it would make Templar too good against all sorts of harassment options that have energy pools. Very situational perhaps but medivacs, banshees, oracles and phoenixes might be shut down from escaping if there is a Templar present
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
Such domination! They had heavy presence in two consecutive korean tournaments, winning the one they always win regardless of meta; no patch was released and two months later Protoss aren't overperforming anymore, were they op or just ahead of the meta?
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
On July 17 2019 19:14 EESCLuna wrote: Legacy of the Void, a History of protoss nerfs whatever the state of the game is.
So simply want to remove inmortal chargelot allins. No matter the consecuences on the other matches or zerg learning to stop them efficiently. In fact, want to remove the only effective strategy on zvp.
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
We had 1 single P dominated tournament ONE.
If you cant be bothered to do the research then ask, don't state clearly false information as fact.
First one was start of march, we had IEM katawice, we had 6 protoss in round 12 and 4 in round of 8. Sure looking at the groups and the results its not that surprising, we are still talking 50% of the bracket for ro12 and ro8 being protoss. Its also the start of the trend.
Super tournament saw only 2 terrans in RO16, mainly due to to PvT if you check the qualifiers. In the ro8 there were 7 protoss.
GSL season 2 had 5 protoss in RO8 and 3 in RO4.
Protoss have been dominating the brackets and qualifiers for the last three mainly korean tournaments, the latest season 3 GSL is bucking the trend. In WESG and HSC were lots of foreigners attend we also haven't seen protoss domination, in general protoss seems to only over achive in korea.
Its a fact korean tournaments have been dominated by protoss for the last 3 tournaments, (not won by though).
HOWEVER while that is a fact it is also a fact that we never saw these results in the foreigner circuits and the trend even in korea has been broken in GSL season 3. Therefore I do agree protoss in general does not need a nerf because the problem has been figured out and the meta has shifted. Bullshit like wp should still be fixed and changes like stim and ghost will go a long way to make the game better in the long run I think.
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
Katowice has nothing to do with Protoss domination, Terran did terribly but that didn't happen again.
Super Tournament was indeed a Protossfest(weirdly enough, with a PvT final) while Code S S2 2019 had above average Protoss representation leading to the first Zerg victory in four years: so op!
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
Katowice has nothing to do with Protoss domination, Terran did terribly but that didn't happen again.
Super Tournament was indeed a Protossfest(weirdly enough, with a PvT final) while Code S S2 2019 had above average Protoss representation leading to the first Zerg victory in four years: so op!
Also worth pointing out that almost all of the terrans knocked out in Katowice were knocked out by Zerg rather than Protoss.
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
Katowice has nothing to do with Protoss domination, Terran did terribly but that didn't happen again.
Super Tournament was indeed a Protossfest(weirdly enough, with a PvT final) while Code S S2 2019 had above average Protoss representation leading to the first Zerg victory in four years: so op!
Also worth pointing out that almost all of the terrans knocked out in Katowice were knocked out by Zerg rather than Protoss.
Yeah, even last Code S, Maru was knocked out by a T, an unfortunate consequence of the two Terrans losing to a Protoss and a Zerg respectively in their opening matches. Most of the morning I saw was almost solely focused on bashing Patience and moaning about Protoss.
Code S has more good Protoss in it, assuming they’re in shape, it’s a small pool of talent so a little skew will have a big effect season after season.
Hopefully this trend is bucked by some of the returning military guys getting back into tip top shape. Fantasy is gradually improving all the time, Dream is back and was a real talent and showed flashes of that. Maybe Taeja and Bomber step up, DRG returns to former glory, or guys like Ragnarok make that step up to making deep runs that Trap and Hurricane have managed.
Hopefully anyway, think players getting back in shape and bridging the obvious gap in tiers in Code S would be great for the tournament.
I’m not sure if I’m the man to do this, lacking both patience and competence I think it would be worthwhile to use Aligulac predictions and ratings and comb through Code S results for example, tot up which matches went as expected, which were upsets, and what direction those tended to go in matchup terms.
So I want to clear something up for whiners on both sides of the discussion regarding Protoss. When most people hop on these threads the expectation is that the content is going to be balanced focused. Balance at the highest level of play (which Im sorry to continue to have to point out is in KOREA). Innovation got sent out in the ro32 after handing Serral a loss for 100K a few months earlier. The first round boys. Protoss winrates for 2019 in Korea are up enough for it to be significant for blizzard to react. That's literally all it is. But back to the issue at hand. What you really see 90% of the toss whine about has nothing to do with balance at all. The toss players who come on here crying about how everyone has always hated toss arent wrong. But, there is a reason for it. It has specifically to do with the degree of difficulty required to execute builds that can bring a Protoss player above 6K on ladder. The fact that things like Has' canon robo s.b. builds and the Margery and a multitude of other absurdly easy to execute builds can be competitive at the pro level (notice I said competitive and not BROKEN) is the literal reason people hate Protoss. The same goes in PvT late game. When the ultimate tech is reached its actually silly to watch. In my mind the "balancing" of mechanics required to execute builds that can win per MMR level is something that should be looked at seperately for each race and adjusted to prevent the end resulting bias / hate/ whatever you want to call it. The quality of life improvement of having design fixes in place for this would in my opinion have a very positive impact on the community. E.g. removing dumb shit from the game should be a regular part of community feedback updates. The first example we saw of this was the raven fix. The games were balanced but it was stupid to play and watch. They fixed it and TvZ didnt break.. in fact I think most people would agree its the matchup in by far the best place of all of them.. I didnt always agree with this thinking but its becoming more clear to me.
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
The Premier Tournament post is beyond trash and you should be ashamed for linking it.
why is it trash?
Because it includes WESG, HSC, GSL Qualifiers but acts like the competition level of WCS Circuit events is too low. Creator vs. Wardi and Mana vs. Replicant (who?) are useful indicators of balance but Neeb vs. SpeCial at a WCS Circuit event isn't.
On July 18 2019 10:06 DomeGetta wrote: The toss players who come on here crying about how everyone has always hated toss arent wrong. But, there is a reason for it. It has specifically to do with the degree of difficulty required to execute builds that can bring a Protoss player above 6K on ladder. The fact that things like Has' canon robo s.b. builds and the Margery and a multitude of other absurdly easy to execute builds can be competitive at the pro level (notice I said competitive and not BROKEN) is the literal reason people hate Protoss.
The builds that NoRegreT used against Terran and Protoss to qualify for multiple GSLs are even less difficult to execute than those. (ZvZ micro wars can be absolutely brutal)
On July 18 2019 10:06 DomeGetta wrote: So I want to clear something up for whiners on both sides of the discussion regarding Protoss. When most people hop on these threads the expectation is that the content is going to be balanced focused. Balance at the highest level of play (which Im sorry to continue to have to point out is in KOREA). Innovation got sent out in the ro32 after handing Serral a loss for 100K a few months earlier. The first round boys. Protoss winrates for 2019 in Korea are up enough for it to be significant for blizzard to react. That's literally all it is. But back to the issue at hand. What you really see 90% of the toss whine about has nothing to do with balance at all. The toss players who come on here crying about how everyone has always hated toss arent wrong. But, there is a reason for it. It has specifically to do with the degree of difficulty required to execute builds that can bring a Protoss player above 6K on ladder. The fact that things like Has' canon robo s.b. builds and the Margery and a multitude of other absurdly easy to execute builds can be competitive at the pro level (notice I said competitive and not BROKEN) is the literal reason people hate Protoss. The same goes in PvT late game. When the ultimate tech is reached its actually silly to watch. In my mind the "balancing" of mechanics required to execute builds that can win per MMR level is something that should be looked at seperately for each race and adjusted to prevent the end resulting bias / hate/ whatever you want to call it. The quality of life improvement of having design fixes in place for this would in my opinion have a very positive impact on the community. E.g. removing dumb shit from the game should be a regular part of community feedback updates. The first example we saw of this was the raven fix. The games were balanced but it was stupid to play and watch. They fixed it and TvZ didnt break.. in fact I think most people would agree its the matchup in by far the best place of all of them.. I didnt always agree with this thinking but its becoming more clear to me.
Fundamentally that’s a problem with how Terran is designed and not Protoss, or Zerg for that matter
Give a race 2 stock ranged units that are insanely microable, pump out a ton of damage, synergise with healing dropships, etc.
The other 2 races have nothing remotely comparable to bio in terms of stock units you can micro to increase their effectiveness anywhere close to that, especially as numbers scale, so they need potent AoE to compensate. Potent AoE, or abilities like charge that top pros can mitigate by splitting or kiting, and regular plebs just can’t, and the game is generally balanced towards high levels of play and not across the MMR spectrum.
Yes Protoss bullshit agreed and I don’t like the warp gate mechanic, but people consistently rail about Terran being the well designed race when if anything a whole bunch of related issues IMO stem from how they designed bio to begin with
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
The Premier Tournament post is beyond trash and you should be ashamed for linking it.
why is it trash?
Because most of the data is wrong or manipulated in order to spread false information. This post was linked a few times already and posting it again doesn't make it any more true.
If we look at premier tournaments of 2018-2019 it's very balanced across races. It just so happens that protoss found specific builds and ran them through tournaments for good runs, and zergs have been slow to adapt to them. VS Terrans, the fact that the stim buff exists is HUGE already, from scv pulls to new 1-1-1 timings, it's pretty insane the amount of openers they now have.
But on top of all this theres a chargelot nerf? I feel this is so redundant. The warp prism nerf is very apt in all match ups actually, this has been abused quite a bit. And nerfing the costing for WP is also alright I guess (eventho immortals cost more)... And its already impeding a little on harassment on the protoss side.
I'd want to think these 2 changes is enough on the protoss to balance things in light of buffs for terran and zerg too.
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
We had 1 single P dominated tournament ONE.
Average Protoss representation in Korean tournaments Ro8 this year is more than Terran and Zerg combined, Blizzcon standings are at 5/8 Protoss players, which is also more than the other races combined, that doesn't happen with one tournament. I don't know what game Protoss players are watching when they come to this thread and say they aren't dominating everything, maybe its Dota or League of Legends. If Protoss players are doing poorly, or just average, why are there 5 Protoss, 2 Zergs and a single Terran at Blizzcon?
On July 18 2019 10:06 DomeGetta wrote: So I want to clear something up for whiners on both sides of the discussion regarding Protoss. When most people hop on these threads the expectation is that the content is going to be balanced focused. Balance at the highest level of play (which Im sorry to continue to have to point out is in KOREA). Innovation got sent out in the ro32 after handing Serral a loss for 100K a few months earlier. The first round boys. Protoss winrates for 2019 in Korea are up enough for it to be significant for blizzard to react. That's literally all it is. But back to the issue at hand. What you really see 90% of the toss whine about has nothing to do with balance at all. The toss players who come on here crying about how everyone has always hated toss arent wrong. But, there is a reason for it. It has specifically to do with the degree of difficulty required to execute builds that can bring a Protoss player above 6K on ladder. The fact that things like Has' canon robo s.b. builds and the Margery and a multitude of other absurdly easy to execute builds can be competitive at the pro level (notice I said competitive and not BROKEN) is the literal reason people hate Protoss. The same goes in PvT late game. When the ultimate tech is reached its actually silly to watch. In my mind the "balancing" of mechanics required to execute builds that can win per MMR level is something that should be looked at seperately for each race and adjusted to prevent the end resulting bias / hate/ whatever you want to call it. The quality of life improvement of having design fixes in place for this would in my opinion have a very positive impact on the community. E.g. removing dumb shit from the game should be a regular part of community feedback updates. The first example we saw of this was the raven fix. The games were balanced but it was stupid to play and watch. They fixed it and TvZ didnt break.. in fact I think most people would agree its the matchup in by far the best place of all of them.. I didnt always agree with this thinking but its becoming more clear to me.
Fundamentally that’s a problem with how Terran is designed and not Protoss, or Zerg for that matter
Give a race 2 stock ranged units that are insanely microable, pump out a ton of damage, synergise with healing dropships, etc.
The other 2 races have nothing remotely comparable to bio in terms of stock units you can micro to increase their effectiveness anywhere close to that, especially as numbers scale, so they need potent AoE to compensate. Potent AoE, or abilities like charge that top pros can mitigate by splitting or kiting, and regular plebs just can’t, and the game is generally balanced towards high levels of play and not across the MMR spectrum.
Yes Protoss bullshit agreed and I don’t like the warp gate mechanic, but people consistently rail about Terran being the well designed race when if anything a whole bunch of related issues IMO stem from how they designed bio to begin with
Well I disagree, the "problem" in the formentioned situation is protoss. I strongly agree with Domegetta and while I see your point of view just look at TvZ. We have the same situation here, terran has more microable units with insane value potential, zerg has counters but you know what there is counter play to zergs counter. When zerg get baneling/ultra/lurker/bL/infestor bio can still be used, maybe it needs certain support units, but a lot can be done with good positioning, micro and game sense. That is an example of a good dynamic, I'm not saying terran (or any race) is supposed to be able to go a certain set of units and be able to win against everything but it should be playable.
In PvT it is not, it is a serious case of rock-paper-scissors, if toss gets 3 colossi with some ground army in front of it the army is mobile, recallable and will crush bio very one sidedly. Terran cant just get a couple of libs or vikings because even if they focus the colossi during a fight the colossi will have killed the bio before they themselves are dead. I know colossi is bad right now but the same situation remains for other units, HT you need ghosts and to dance the dance because any fight with bio vs an army with 2-3 storms will be death, there is only run away or bait out all storms while only taking minor damage to your army which is crazy hard. I guess you can get tanks against HT but they are slow, clunky to use and protoss has the ultimate counter to them, if protoss gets a decent number of immortals or disruptors tanks are uselss (air also ofc).
That is why the PvT matchup feels so bad in my opinion, its the same for protoss they need to survive the insanely strong bio until they get their aoe counter and they have the counter they still need to defend multi pronged harass maybe doom drops while trying to get an advantage out of their rock-scissor situation in army vs army. In TvZ whatever you play against you feel like there is a counterplay, there is a chance, in TvP you see the opponents units and tech and they counter yours and its either a) doomdrop b) turtle + multi harass until you hav ethe counter to their counter.
My point is that it is possible to have aoe splash units that can balance up against the strength of bio (like zerg does) without it becoming the rock-paper-scissor feel that TvP has at the moment.
On July 18 2019 03:04 Walperin wrote: What do u guys think of AN upgrade for feedback that would increase it dmg? So high templar could kill it with one shot
I mean it basically puts us back to Templar maybe being too good vs enemy casters in real lategame armies, which was itself a bit wonky I think.
I liked the suggestion that feedback would also add a movement debuft, or maybe a brief stun or something. You wouldn’t instantly kill casters but they’d be made a bit vulnerable to being picked off.
Although now I think about it more it would make Templar too good against all sorts of harassment options that have energy pools. Very situational perhaps but medivacs, banshees, oracles and phoenixes might be shut down from escaping if there is a Templar present
I think it's okay since when those mentioned harras options hit, nobody has Templar available. And in the later stages having Templar at all your bases to prevent these it's also quite an investment for the defender.
Hell, make an 100/ 100 upgrade for Feedback to limit movement speed by 50% for 2 sec or hold a unit in place for 1 sec. Any maybe, mabye add +1 range to that upgrade as well. Since Ghost range is now upgradeable and Infestor has a greater range anyway.
I mean, c'mon. I haven't seen a Toss use Feedback in a televised game for weeks. WEEKS! But maybe I just didn't catch it XD
EDIT: Also proxy 3 rax is a waaaay worse build than cannon rush and can be done by any wood leaguer for those complaining about canon rushes
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
Well you know sometimes the better players win too it's not just all about race so until you see 4 big tournaments in a row with all protoss winning then yeah it might be time for something drastic but as of now protoss is underperforming if you look at the big picture.
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
Well you know sometimes the better players win too it's not just all about race so until you see 4 big tournaments in a row with all protoss winning then yeah it might be time for something drastic but as of now protoss is underperforming if you look at the big picture.
Why is Toss underperforming? With GSL group H its pretty likely 7 out of 16 will be toss in Ro16.
Protoss underperforming right now in a big picture is the funniest statement in this whole thread :D Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast.
On July 18 2019 02:55 FXOTheoRy wrote: Just remove protoss from the game at this point. Reddit whining is clearly more important than statistics and tournament results...
Maybe, maybe not. But Protoss are dominating the field, they just cannot win a tournament except the ST. But we had some heavy P dominated tournaments...
Well you know sometimes the better players win too it's not just all about race so until you see 4 big tournaments in a row with all protoss winning then yeah it might be time for something drastic but as of now protoss is underperforming if you look at the big picture.
You do realize 4 Korean tournaments in a row means we just fucked up the whole year, do you?
On July 18 2019 22:19 gTank wrote: Protoss underperforming right now in a big picture is the funniest statement in this whole thread :D Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast.
Yeah its definitely underperforming :D. Only 5 out of Korean Blizzcon spots are Protoss, should be 6/8 and the other races should be glad they got someone in!
On July 18 2019 22:19 gTank wrote: Protoss underperforming right now in a big picture is the funniest statement in this whole thread :D Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast.
Yeah its definitely underperforming :D. Only 5 out of Korean Blizzcon spots are Protoss, should be 6/8 and the other races should be glad they got someone in!
WCS points are cumulative, they are indicative of what happened, not of what is happening at the moment. Protoss are not underperforming right now but for sure they stopped seeming op(which they really weren't, in perspective), and they still don't win tournaments. In this situation, they are about to receive nerfs(and the oh-so-weak Terran are getting only buffs).
On July 18 2019 22:19 gTank wrote: Protoss underperforming right now in a big picture is the funniest statement in this whole thread :D Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast.
Yeah its definitely underperforming :D. Only 5 out of Korean Blizzcon spots are Protoss, should be 6/8 and the other races should be glad they got someone in!
WCS points are cumulative, they are indicative of what happened, not of what is happening at the moment. Protoss are not underperforming right now but for sure they stopped seeming op(which they really weren't, in perspective), and they still don't win tournaments. In this situation, they are about to receive nerfs(and the oh-so-weak Terran are getting only buffs).
And here i was thinking you're only delusional when it comes to Serral. That's actually amazing.
On July 18 2019 22:19 gTank wrote: Protoss underperforming right now in a big picture is the funniest statement in this whole thread :D Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast.
Yeah its definitely underperforming :D. Only 5 out of Korean Blizzcon spots are Protoss, should be 6/8 and the other races should be glad they got someone in!
WCS points are cumulative, they are indicative of what happened, not of what is happening at the moment. Protoss are not underperforming right now but for sure they stopped seeming op(which they really weren't, in perspective), and they still don't win tournaments. In this situation, they are about to receive nerfs(and the oh-so-weak Terran are getting only buffs).
And here i was thinking you're only delusional when it comes to Serral. That's actually amazing.
I am instead not surprised to see you express this kind of opinions. So tell me, would you say Protoss have been overperforming in the last four weeks?
Terran needs more buff, but in mostly terran-life, like maybe add automine which will send scv will go back to mining automatically (once finished building) and you dont need to shift click them back.. Toss and zerg dont have this issue, but the way terran macro works adds a lot of extra action per minute, directly reducing terran player ability to multitask, this would boost terran economy without any buff or other change.
Why all this hand-wringing about the Terran buffs?
Stim-timings rely on medivac-timing to be highly effective. It can also be easily hotfixed if Blizzard sees stim-timings dominate opponents. Ghost EMP radius buff requires a 150/150 upgrade! Even then, it only increases the radius; not the direct-potency of the shield or energy drain.
Thank you, Blizzard balance team, for acknowledging the power of Zealots relative to their cost and ease-of-use. As their primary role is to soak damage, the small nerf to zealot's charge-damage is a step in the right direction. If needed, a late-game upgrade (similar to the ghost EMP radius buff) can be introduced to compensate for the loss of gateway units' power.
I love the pruning-the-hedge approach from the balance team! Minor changes to shape the game into the beautiful masterpiece that is!
On July 18 2019 22:19 gTank wrote: Protoss underperforming right now in a big picture is the funniest statement in this whole thread :D Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast.
Yeah its definitely underperforming :D. Only 5 out of Korean Blizzcon spots are Protoss, should be 6/8 and the other races should be glad they got someone in!
WCS points are cumulative, they are indicative of what happened, not of what is happening at the moment. Protoss are not underperforming right now but for sure they stopped seeming op(which they really weren't, in perspective), and they still don't win tournaments. In this situation, they are about to receive nerfs(and the oh-so-weak Terran are getting only buffs).
And here i was thinking you're only delusional when it comes to Serral. That's actually amazing.
I am instead not surprised to see you express this kind of opinions. So tell me, would you say Protoss have been overperforming in the last four weeks?
Europe returned to the ZvZ clowfiesta it has always been,but unlike you i don't take anything that happens in WCS welfare seriously.
This is really broken if you ask me. In those standings, there is only 1 Terran (Maru) and 2 Zergs (Dark and Soo). This balance patch can't come fast enough.
On July 17 2019 05:57 -KG- wrote: I really don't get it. We had an overweight of P in RO8 in the GSL super tournament but in the bigger picture P hasn't won sh*t of the premier tournaments in both 2018 and 2019. And yet, all Blizz can focus on is rather big nerfs to P and buffs to the other races. There was a game earlier today on Stats' stream that displayed just how overpowered and completely un-engageable mass infestors are right now - how can this not be the main issue in terms of balance right now?
But but ! Qualifiers ! Yeah apparently that's a thing
Now let's see how many video game design expert i can count here...
This is really broken if you ask me. In those standings, there is only 1 Terran (Maru) and 2 Zergs (Dark and Soo). This balance patch can't come fast enough.
13 Protoss 12 Zergs 10 Terrans
This is an outrage ! Clearly people like Armani alive or keen are better than Dear or classic or trap .. oh wait
On July 17 2019 05:57 -KG- wrote: I really don't get it. We had an overweight of P in RO8 in the GSL super tournament but in the bigger picture P hasn't won sh*t of the premier tournaments in both 2018 and 2019. And yet, all Blizz can focus on is rather big nerfs to P and buffs to the other races. There was a game earlier today on Stats' stream that displayed just how overpowered and completely un-engageable mass infestors are right now - how can this not be the main issue in terms of balance right now?
But but ! Qualifiers ! Yeah apparently that's a thing
Now let's see how many video game design expert i can count here...
This is really broken if you ask me. In those standings, there is only 1 Terran (Maru) and 2 Zergs (Dark and Soo). This balance patch can't come fast enough.
13 Protoss 12 Zergs 10 Terrans
This is an outrage ! Clearly people like Armani alive or keen are better than Dear or classic or trap .. oh wait
Yeah, this is totally about Armani and Keen and not about Inno, TY, Rogue, Solar. Nice strawman.
On July 18 2019 22:19 gTank wrote: Protoss underperforming right now in a big picture is the funniest statement in this whole thread :D Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast.
Yeah its definitely underperforming :D. Only 5 out of Korean Blizzcon spots are Protoss, should be 6/8 and the other races should be glad they got someone in!
WCS points are cumulative, they are indicative of what happened, not of what is happening at the moment. Protoss are not underperforming right now but for sure they stopped seeming op(which they really weren't, in perspective), and they still don't win tournaments. In this situation, they are about to receive nerfs(and the oh-so-weak Terran are getting only buffs).
And here i was thinking you're only delusional when it comes to Serral. That's actually amazing.
I am instead not surprised to see you express this kind of opinions. So tell me, would you say Protoss have been overperforming in the last four weeks?
Europe returned to the ZvZ clowfiesta it has always been,but unlike you i don't take anything that happens in WCS welfare seriously.
Sure, let's ignore WCS then! What about Code S, where we will have in ro16 from 5 to 7 Protoss(hopefully 6) out of 12?In Master's Coliseum, no Protoss reached ro4.
Also(I already said it once) in 2016 and 2018 there were 4 korean Protoss at BlizzCon; the fifth today, Dear, is far from having his spot locked and we may very well end up with 4 Protoss again.
On July 18 2019 22:19 gTank wrote: Protoss underperforming right now in a big picture is the funniest statement in this whole thread :D Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast.
Yeah its definitely underperforming :D. Only 5 out of Korean Blizzcon spots are Protoss, should be 6/8 and the other races should be glad they got someone in!
WCS points are cumulative, they are indicative of what happened, not of what is happening at the moment. Protoss are not underperforming right now but for sure they stopped seeming op(which they really weren't, in perspective), and they still don't win tournaments. In this situation, they are about to receive nerfs(and the oh-so-weak Terran are getting only buffs).
And here i was thinking you're only delusional when it comes to Serral. That's actually amazing.
I am instead not surprised to see you express this kind of opinions. So tell me, would you say Protoss have been overperforming in the last four weeks?
Europe returned to the ZvZ clowfiesta it has always been,but unlike you i don't take anything that happens in WCS welfare seriously.
Except for the finals the las WCS was quite well distributed across al rounds, even semis had a 2/1/1 split.
On July 18 2019 22:19 gTank wrote: Protoss underperforming right now in a big picture is the funniest statement in this whole thread :D Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast.
Yeah its definitely underperforming :D. Only 5 out of Korean Blizzcon spots are Protoss, should be 6/8 and the other races should be glad they got someone in!
WCS points are cumulative, they are indicative of what happened, not of what is happening at the moment. Protoss are not underperforming right now but for sure they stopped seeming op(which they really weren't, in perspective), and they still don't win tournaments. In this situation, they are about to receive nerfs(and the oh-so-weak Terran are getting only buffs).
And here i was thinking you're only delusional when it comes to Serral. That's actually amazing.
I am instead not surprised to see you express this kind of opinions. So tell me, would you say Protoss have been overperforming in the last four weeks?
Europe returned to the ZvZ clowfiesta it has always been,but unlike you i don't take anything that happens in WCS welfare seriously.
Except for the finals the las WCS was quite well distributed across al rounds, even semis had a 2/1/1 split.
Last two to my recollection were both pretty good distribution wise.
Wouldn’t discount WCS entirely, GSL just doesn’t have the depth it used to so gauging the state of the game solely from GSL is fraught with problems
Everyone is talking about directly buffing Terran and nerfing Protoss. But no one wonders why the game is in such a bad state from the spectator's point of view currently. The "overpowered" stuff that the whine is all about is just a consequence of a bunch of design flaws that Blizzard is failing to acknowledge. Let's use the medical terms and say the game is sick. What Blizzard is currently doing, is treating its symptoms, while leaving the underlying cause of those symptoms to freely continue spreading plague, while the underlying cause of the symptoms should be dealt with first.
The first and foremost problem (also the one with the longest description here ) was created at the start of LotV, when the starting economy was changed to 12 workers instead of 6. This had massive consequences, since it extremely sped up the early game. The minerals started accumulating faster, which means players could throw down tech/production buildings faster, or use that extra money for more workers. So far so good, we've eliminated the boring downtime in the early game. But here comes the problem: macro mechanics! At the beginning of LotV, macro mechanics were nerfed to compensate for increased starting economy and make people not rely on them so much. Mule trip income was lowered by 20%, larvae generated by injects were lowered by 25% (overall decrease of 14% since hatcheries still produce 3 larvae during the inject cycle) and the chronoboost was changed to be constant, give a smaller boost, and not cost energy. However, at the end of 2017, mothership core was removed because it was bad for the game. To compensate, Blizzard introduced shield batteries, buffed stalker damage (but retained its DPS), and, most important for the point I'm trying to make, buffed chronoboost. As I've said a few sentences ago, with the starting worker count increased to 12, minerals start accumulating faster. Protoss and Zerg can use their macro mechanics to speed up worker production, which obviously results in them being able to spend the excess minerals and also get ahead economically at the same time. Meanwhile, Terran macro mechanic, the mule, doesn't allow Terran to spend money, but it makes Terran mine more instead, to be able to keep up with other races income-wise. That may have worked in the past, as in HotS Zerg droning was limited by the amount of minerals they mined, and the Protoss chronoboost was weaker. Now, the alien races create a bigger worker advantage for themselves, while the nerfed version of the mule is unable to keep up. This creates a large early game advantage for Zerg and Protoss versus Terran, but this is not game breaking. Now, I know most people would be outraged if the mule was buffed, because "herp derp Terran doesn't need workers in the late game". That is why, if this issue was to be looked at (and I by no means think this should definitely be implemented), I would propose to lower the maximum energy on the orbital command. However, this is not the only undesired side effect of the changed starting economy. The second problem, caused by these economy changes, is the change in the timings. This is most notable in the dynamic of PvT. Terran needs the stim upgrade to even be able to move out on the map aside from the opening reaper, because without it, stalkers can just kite marines and marauders for days. In HotS, a Terran opening reaper expand into 2 more barracks would have about a minute long window where his stim was done, blink would still be researching (if Protoss opened with twilight) and the first colossus would just be starting (if Protoss opened with robo). This would force the Protoss to sit back defensively for a bit, allowing Terran to have map control for a short while, getting the first medivacs out, and usually start the 3rd cc in the main base. Once blink/colossus was finished, Protoss could deflect the Terran and take a 3rd base of his own, while continuing to be defensive. In the current state of the game however, the extra income Protoss has early on is invested into a slightly faster natural expansion and faster tech. Combine that with the improved chronoboost, and blink finishes a solid minute before stim. This gives Protoss the initiative on the map, which allows for an extremely greedy 3rd base and double forge plays, without Terran being able to punish the greed. On a side note, the second reason for this is that Terran macro mechanic, mule, is activated only AFTER he starts building additional barracks. What happens next, again, stems from the increased starting economy. Because the resources start accumulating faster, players can spend them to add production buildings and start building more units earlier. However, the vital upgrade times were not lowered to compensate for this, which means, in our TvP example, the Protoss will have a lot more units by the time Terran upgrades like stim finish. Because of that, bio openings are extinct in current state of the game. Again, this isn't a game breaking issue, and I am not advocating for something to be done about that; however, this is one of the factors that makes the LotV so frustrating for Terrans, as the race a) has literally no real aggression options until stim is finished (talking aggression here, not all in, and the opponent has much more units by the time stim finishes compared to HotS), and b) the mule was not only nerfed from HotS, but it also starts its effect much later in the game than for example chronoboost, which is available at the start of the game. This way, Protoss has a huge economical advantage, especially combined with taking the natural expansion faster compared to the HotS builds. Also note that the cc cannot produce SCVs while it is upgrading to an orbital, which means Terran has to skip 2 workers to get to mules, and the Protoss can chronoboost out 3 probes in this time. This are all the consequences of the economy changes at the start of LotV.
The second problem are some specific buffs to both Protoss and Terran that, in my opinion, also contribute a lot to the current state of the game. In november 2016, tanks were changed. They could no longer be picked up by medivacs while in siege mode, got their health increased by 15, lowered the attack speed and increased damage by 5(20 vs armored). In the same patch, the immortal's barrier cooldown was substantially lowered. The warp prism pick up range was introduced much earlier. However, why were these two changes needed? Here comes the second problem: massability of the roaches. At the start of LotV, Terrans could pick up and drop siege tanks when in siege mode. This was extremely unhealthy for the game, but it was the only thing holding back the mass roach ravager attacks in TvZ. The immortal barrier change was effected for the same reason (cannot 100% verify this, as the liquipedia links are broken). Overall, Zerg got heavily nerfed in this patch, and both Terran and Protoss got buffed. However, the massability of roaches and ravagers and the potency of such attacks was untouched, Terran and Protoss just got band-aid fixes to deal with these attacks. However, in long term vision, this patch was not very healthy for the state of the game. Instead of applying band-aid fixes there, Blizzard should have nerfed the potency of mass roach timing attacks, while not reducing the roaches' defensive capabilities. However, their choice of action was easier, because the game was not yet as figured out as it is today, so the changes seemed good at the time. If this issue would to be addressed, my proposal would be: 1) roach cost increased by 25 minerals to make massing them a little harder, 2) ravager supply increased from 3 to 4, morph cost increased by 25 minerals 50 gas (or maybe 75), added massive tag, corrosive bile range (and maybe also damage) decreased a little, bile no longer breaks force fields, health increased from 120 to 175 (theorycrafting here). This would retain roaches defensive capabilities against Protoss all ins, while massing them would be a bit harder. Ravagers would no longer need corrosive bile to break force fields, as they would themselves be massive, albeit more expensive. This could result in a better dynamic, where the Zerg has less ravagers, but has to micro them to break forcefields, which would also make target firing the ravagers more important for the Protoss. Another possibility would be to lower the roach attack range or damage, but I'm afraid this would be too much of a nerf to Zerg's defensive potency against Protoss pushes. Of course, if roaches would be nerfed, the tank damage and health buff should also be reverted, and either the immortal barrier cooldown or the prism pick up range should be nerfed to compensate. Again, this is just my suggestion, which is not perfect, as this issue is extremely complex.
Finally, we've come to the 3rd and the last issue, the lategame units. This has been one of the most agreed on topics in balance discussions, because lategame is seen more and more in LotV, also as a consequence of the economy changes. The problem here is the strength of certain lategame units. What is bad for the game is a) free units in the lategame b) mass air compositions. As is, air compositions are bad for the health of the game. They ignore any terrain, which means they bypass an important tactical aspect of the game, while making it impossible for ground units to deal with certain compositions. For the health of the game, air units should ONLY be used as SUPPORT for the ground forces, not the other way around. It is much more interesting as a spectator to watch for example bio tank viking take on ling bane ultra with a few brood lords, tban it is to watch a PvZ turtlefest of mass spore infestor broodlord. I repeat, every air composition should have a viable counter on the ground. Though it is a pressing issue, Blizzard is acknowledging that something is amiss here so I will not say that this is currently a priority issue. However, I would like to address the strength of proxy tempest rushes. I cannot remember a TvP I've played in the last month or two on cyber forest that the Protoss didn't go cannon rush into proxy tempests. My proposal would be to lower the tempest's anti ground range to 6 and maybe even lower the damage, since their role is to counter massive air units. Their massive range is the reason those rushes are even a thing and it is not healthy for the game.
On July 18 2019 22:19 gTank wrote: Protoss underperforming right now in a big picture is the funniest statement in this whole thread :D Don't agree to nerf them so much but this balance whining here is getting out of hand fast.
Yeah its definitely underperforming :D. Only 5 out of Korean Blizzcon spots are Protoss, should be 6/8 and the other races should be glad they got someone in!
WCS points are cumulative, they are indicative of what happened, not of what is happening at the moment. Protoss are not underperforming right now but for sure they stopped seeming op(which they really weren't, in perspective), and they still don't win tournaments. In this situation, they are about to receive nerfs(and the oh-so-weak Terran are getting only buffs).
And here i was thinking you're only delusional when it comes to Serral. That's actually amazing.
I am instead not surprised to see you express this kind of opinions. So tell me, would you say Protoss have been overperforming in the last four weeks?
Europe returned to the ZvZ clowfiesta it has always been,but unlike you i don't take anything that happens in WCS welfare seriously.
Except for the finals the las WCS was quite well distributed across al rounds, even semis had a 2/1/1 split.
Last two to my recollection were both pretty good distribution wise.
Wouldn’t discount WCS entirely, GSL just doesn’t have the depth it used to so gauging the state of the game solely from GSL is fraught with problems
TBH I think people are simply over reacting to the patch, VERY RARELY Blizzard releases a patch in its first iteration. PvX MUs look and feel bad and thats the problem rather than balance, we are simply seeing the results of nerfing hydras and proxys for ZvP and TvP without proper cou ter solutions.
The disparity in regards to strenght at different stages and, mostly, that 2 of the worst protoss designed units in term of play and counter play (chargelots and immortals) are a part of that creates this big gap.
I'd rather they buff more interesting units to watch and play against (like stalkers), and nerf some of the less interesting to watch and play against of the opposite races would help a ton without having to dissolve into endless balance discussions.
On July 18 2019 03:04 Walperin wrote: What do u guys think of AN upgrade for feedback that would increase it dmg? So high templar could kill it with one shot
I mean it basically puts us back to Templar maybe being too good vs enemy casters in real lategame armies, which was itself a bit wonky I think.
I liked the suggestion that feedback would also add a movement debuft, or maybe a brief stun or something. You wouldn’t instantly kill casters but they’d be made a bit vulnerable to being picked off.
Although now I think about it more it would make Templar too good against all sorts of harassment options that have energy pools. Very situational perhaps but medivacs, banshees, oracles and phoenixes might be shut down from escaping if there is a Templar present
I think it's okay since when those mentioned harras options hit, nobody has Templar available. And in the later stages having Templar at all your bases to prevent these it's also quite an investment for the defender.
Hell, make an 100/ 100 upgrade for Feedback to limit movement speed by 50% for 2 sec or hold a unit in place for 1 sec. Any maybe, mabye add +1 range to that upgrade as well. Since Ghost range is now upgradeable and Infestor has a greater range anyway.
I mean, c'mon. I haven't seen a Toss use Feedback in a televised game for weeks. WEEKS! But maybe I just didn't catch it XD
SOS tried to use feedback against Ragnarok in that long game they had in GSL (game 3 of their first set I think it was) where he ended up dying to mass infestor/broodlord/static defence with hydra backup. It didn't end up doing anything though because by the time he got some infestors with feedbacks his army was already fungalled and being killed by other units.
That's a big part of the issue. It's no longer a risk to poke out with infestors because at worst a few might lose energy, but no units will likely die unless the Protoss tries to target them, which will likely end with the Protoss getting part of their army hit with fungal and killed.The risk/reward of using infestors versus trying to kill the infestors is massively skewed right now in favour of the person using infestors.
On July 19 2019 02:11 Pentarp wrote: Why all this hand-wringing about the Terran buffs?
Stim-timings rely on medivac-timing to be highly effective. It can also be easily hotfixed if Blizzard sees stim-timings dominate opponents. Ghost EMP radius buff requires a 150/150 upgrade! Even then, it only increases the radius; not the direct-potency of the shield or energy drain.
Thank you, Blizzard balance team, for acknowledging the power of Zealots relative to their cost and ease-of-use. As their primary role is to soak damage, the small nerf to zealot's charge-damage is a step in the right direction. If needed, a late-game upgrade (similar to the ghost EMP radius buff) can be introduced to compensate for the loss of gateway units' power.
I love the pruning-the-hedge approach from the balance team! Minor changes to shape the game into the beautiful masterpiece that is!
+1
i just think its great the game is still alive and even with Morhaime gone and ATVI laying off people in droves they continue to put their very limited resources into SC2 multiplayer.
When it comes to SC2 multiplayer every day alive is a victory. I guess we need to thank Brack and that Egyptian guy who reports to the ATVI overlords.
On July 19 2019 06:27 K5 wrote: Everyone is talking about directly buffing Terran and nerfing Protoss. But no one wonders why the game is in such a bad state from the spectator's point of view currently. The "overpowered" stuff that the whine is all about is just a consequence of a bunch of design flaws that Blizzard is failing to acknowledge. Let's use the medical terms and say the game is sick. What Blizzard is currently doing, is treating its symptoms, while leaving the underlying cause of those symptoms to freely continue spreading plague, while the underlying cause of the symptoms should be dealt with first.
The first and foremost problem (also the one with the longest description here ) was created at the start of LotV, when the starting economy was changed to 12 workers instead of 6. This had massive consequences, since it extremely sped up the early game. The minerals started accumulating faster, which means players could throw down tech/production buildings faster, or use that extra money for more workers. So far so good, we've eliminated the boring downtime in the early game. But here comes the problem: macro mechanics! At the beginning of LotV, macro mechanics were nerfed to compensate for increased starting economy and make people not rely on them so much. Mule trip income was lowered by 20%, larvae generated by injects were lowered by 25% (overall decrease of 14% since hatcheries still produce 3 larvae during the inject cycle) and the chronoboost was changed to be constant, give a smaller boost, and not cost energy. However, at the end of 2017, mothership core was removed because it was bad for the game. To compensate, Blizzard introduced shield batteries, buffed stalker damage (but retained its DPS), and, most important for the point I'm trying to make, buffed chronoboost. As I've said a few sentences ago, with the starting worker count increased to 12, minerals start accumulating faster. Protoss and Zerg can use their macro mechanics to speed up worker production, which obviously results in them being able to spend the excess minerals and also get ahead economically at the same time. Meanwhile, Terran macro mechanic, the mule, doesn't allow Terran to spend money, but it makes Terran mine more instead, to be able to keep up with other races income-wise. That may have worked in the past, as in HotS Zerg droning was limited by the amount of minerals they mined, and the Protoss chronoboost was weaker. Now, the alien races create a bigger worker advantage for themselves, while the nerfed version of the mule is unable to keep up. This creates a large early game advantage for Zerg and Protoss versus Terran, but this is not game breaking. Now, I know most people would be outraged if the mule was buffed, because "herp derp Terran doesn't need workers in the late game". That is why, if this issue was to be looked at (and I by no means think this should definitely be implemented), I would propose to lower the maximum energy on the orbital command. However, this is not the only undesired side effect of the changed starting economy. The second problem, caused by these economy changes, is the change in the timings. This is most notable in the dynamic of PvT. Terran needs the stim upgrade to even be able to move out on the map aside from the opening reaper, because without it, stalkers can just kite marines and marauders for days. In HotS, a Terran opening reaper expand into 2 more barracks would have about a minute long window where his stim was done, blink would still be researching (if Protoss opened with twilight) and the first colossus would just be starting (if Protoss opened with robo). This would force the Protoss to sit back defensively for a bit, allowing Terran to have map control for a short while, getting the first medivacs out, and usually start the 3rd cc in the main base. Once blink/colossus was finished, Protoss could deflect the Terran and take a 3rd base of his own, while continuing to be defensive. In the current state of the game however, the extra income Protoss has early on is invested into a slightly faster natural expansion and faster tech. Combine that with the improved chronoboost, and blink finishes a solid minute before stim. This gives Protoss the initiative on the map, which allows for an extremely greedy 3rd base and double forge plays, without Terran being able to punish the greed. On a side note, the second reason for this is that Terran macro mechanic, mule, is activated only AFTER he starts building additional barracks. What happens next, again, stems from the increased starting economy. Because the resources start accumulating faster, players can spend them to add production buildings and start building more units earlier. However, the vital upgrade times were not lowered to compensate for this, which means, in our TvP example, the Protoss will have a lot more units by the time Terran upgrades like stim finish. Because of that, bio openings are extinct in current state of the game. Again, this isn't a game breaking issue, and I am not advocating for something to be done about that; however, this is one of the factors that makes the LotV so frustrating for Terrans, as the race a) has literally no real aggression options until stim is finished (talking aggression here, not all in, and the opponent has much more units by the time stim finishes compared to HotS), and b) the mule was not only nerfed from HotS, but it also starts its effect much later in the game than for example chronoboost, which is available at the start of the game. This way, Protoss has a huge economical advantage, especially combined with taking the natural expansion faster compared to the HotS builds. Also note that the cc cannot produce SCVs while it is upgrading to an orbital, which means Terran has to skip 2 workers to get to mules, and the Protoss can chronoboost out 3 probes in this time. This are all the consequences of the economy changes at the start of LotV.
The second problem are some specific buffs to both Protoss and Terran that, in my opinion, also contribute a lot to the current state of the game. In november 2016, tanks were changed. They could no longer be picked up by medivacs while in siege mode, got their health increased by 15, lowered the attack speed and increased damage by 5(20 vs armored). In the same patch, the immortal's barrier cooldown was substantially lowered. The warp prism pick up range was introduced much earlier. However, why were these two changes needed? Here comes the second problem: massability of the roaches. At the start of LotV, Terrans could pick up and drop siege tanks when in siege mode. This was extremely unhealthy for the game, but it was the only thing holding back the mass roach ravager attacks in TvZ. The immortal barrier change was effected for the same reason (cannot 100% verify this, as the liquipedia links are broken). Overall, Zerg got heavily nerfed in this patch, and both Terran and Protoss got buffed. However, the massability of roaches and ravagers and the potency of such attacks was untouched, Terran and Protoss just got band-aid fixes to deal with these attacks. However, in long term vision, this patch was not very healthy for the state of the game. Instead of applying band-aid fixes there, Blizzard should have nerfed the potency of mass roach timing attacks, while not reducing the roaches' defensive capabilities. However, their choice of action was easier, because the game was not yet as figured out as it is today, so the changes seemed good at the time. If this issue would to be addressed, my proposal would be: 1) roach cost increased by 25 minerals to make massing them a little harder, 2) ravager supply increased from 3 to 4, morph cost increased by 25 minerals 50 gas (or maybe 75), added massive tag, corrosive bile range (and maybe also damage) decreased a little, bile no longer breaks force fields, health increased from 120 to 175 (theorycrafting here). This would retain roaches defensive capabilities against Protoss all ins, while massing them would be a bit harder. Ravagers would no longer need corrosive bile to break force fields, as they would themselves be massive, albeit more expensive. This could result in a better dynamic, where the Zerg has less ravagers, but has to micro them to break forcefields, which would also make target firing the ravagers more important for the Protoss. Another possibility would be to lower the roach attack range or damage, but I'm afraid this would be too much of a nerf to Zerg's defensive potency against Protoss pushes. Of course, if roaches would be nerfed, the tank damage and health buff should also be reverted, and either the immortal barrier cooldown or the prism pick up range should be nerfed to compensate. Again, this is just my suggestion, which is not perfect, as this issue is extremely complex.
Finally, we've come to the 3rd and the last issue, the lategame units. This has been one of the most agreed on topics in balance discussions, because lategame is seen more and more in LotV, also as a consequence of the economy changes. The problem here is the strength of certain lategame units. What is bad for the game is a) free units in the lategame b) mass air compositions. As is, air compositions are bad for the health of the game. They ignore any terrain, which means they bypass an important tactical aspect of the game, while making it impossible for ground units to deal with certain compositions. For the health of the game, air units should ONLY be used as SUPPORT for the ground forces, not the other way around. It is much more interesting as a spectator to watch for example bio tank viking take on ling bane ultra with a few brood lords, tban it is to watch a PvZ turtlefest of mass spore infestor broodlord. I repeat, every air composition should have a viable counter on the ground. Though it is a pressing issue, Blizzard is acknowledging that something is amiss here so I will not say that this is currently a priority issue. However, I would like to address the strength of proxy tempest rushes. I cannot remember a TvP I've played in the last month or two on cyber forest that the Protoss didn't go cannon rush into proxy tempests. My proposal would be to lower the tempest's anti ground range to 6 and maybe even lower the damage, since their role is to counter massive air units. Their massive range is the reason those rushes are even a thing and it is not healthy for the game.
I agree with most of you analysis of why the game is in the state its in, on the other hand I think that the fundamental things like macro mechanics could be FINE as long as other things are tweeked. Economies of players don't have to have parity as long as the lower econ more defensive race has stronger, more cost efficient units and better tech options to respond to the bigger economy of their opponent. Whats messed up in my opinion right now in tvp is that the lower econ race (terran) also has the worse scaling tech and less efficient army. The only time this is not true is right as their 2 base allin timing hits, this is the only time currently that terrans army is actually appropriately strong for how behind they are in other ways in the game just due to the nature of the match up.
If you look at brood war this dynamic is correct in all match ups, tvp terran has better long term army: mech but worse map control and has to fight to split the map 1:1 with toss. Toss has better map control, can take bases easier but their army scales worse. This makes sense. ZVP, zerg has better economy, takes more bases but their army scales worse often they take 3:1 trades vs gate+templar armies but its fine because they can have the economy to take that kind of hit. TVZ zerg gets more bases but once terran has a scary army.
Right now whats messed up in sc2 is that its backwards in alot of cases: ZVP, zerg gets more economy, more map control, and better late game. TVP protoss gets more economy more map control and better late game. It often times feels like one race is not compensated in a reasonable way in terms of strength for the other things they are behind in and instead is only compensated with 1 strong allin timing that they have to hit to make the matchup winable for them. This can be "ballanced" in the sense that both races can win but it feels extremely unfair and unfun because options are so limited, and the interactions in these match ups are extremely binary, protoss kills zerg with an allin or losses, terran kills protoss with an allin or losses. Its just not a good dynamic. Im ok with races power scaling differently, but it would be good if they tweeked powerscaleing to promote less allins and more mid game interactions. Alot of this can be done by making the race that has less econ and map control scale better so that they have incentive to stay in the game, and also incentive to not allin evrey single game. once you get to this spot than allins should be scaled back to make games less binary.
I would say the only match up were things are not totally out of whack is tvz, terran gets map control and a strong economy because zerg scales harder early on, but the dynamic actualy flips late game in that terran scales even more than zerg but gets less economy but better scaling. This is a very nice dynamic because both players never have to feel like defeat is inevitable in an otherwise even game just due to poor late game balance.
Constant balance tweaks are required because its impossible to determine how advanced the player base will become. Micro tactics that were not possible at point in time "A" become do-able by the best players at time "A + 6 months". As a result, any RTS game with diverse races and players dedicating their lives to improving at the game will require balance tweaks. It does not mean the game is "sick". Brood War is well designed. Brood War still went through 30 months of balance changes.
Included an excellent discussion on the Pylon Show which looks at how many units of the game are not even having a chance to shine, the lack of early game, and the lack of time available for back and forth gameplay due how fast the gameplay is designed in LOTV.
I really hope the balance team takes a good look at this to improve SC2. Timestamp 2:09:44:
On July 19 2019 13:09 Parcelleus wrote: Included an excellent discussion on the Pylon Show which looks at how many units of the game are not even having a chance to shine, the lack of early game, and the lack of time available for back and forth gameplay due how fast the gameplay is designed in LOTV.
this is very true, in lotv harras comes at 4.30min and timing allin push at 6.30, and at 10min zerg is already making 15broodlords, if you arent getting 3rd at 5min, you are going allin.
On July 17 2019 05:57 -KG- wrote: I really don't get it. We had an overweight of P in RO8 in the GSL super tournament but in the bigger picture P hasn't won sh*t of the premier tournaments in both 2018 and 2019. And yet, all Blizz can focus on is rather big nerfs to P and buffs to the other races. There was a game earlier today on Stats' stream that displayed just how overpowered and completely un-engageable mass infestors are right now - how can this not be the main issue in terms of balance right now?
But but ! Qualifiers ! Yeah apparently that's a thing
Now let's see how many video game design expert i can count here...
This is really broken if you ask me. In those standings, there is only 1 Terran (Maru) and 2 Zergs (Dark and Soo). This balance patch can't come fast enough.
13 Protoss 12 Zergs 10 Terrans
This is an outrage ! Clearly people like Armani alive or keen are better than Dear or classic or trap .. oh wait
Yeah, this is totally about Armani and Keen and not about Inno, TY, Rogue, Solar. Nice strawman.
All of the mentioned (except Solar maybe) were in huge slumps that have absolutely NOTHING to do with how the game is balanced...
On July 19 2019 11:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Constant balance tweaks are required because its impossible to determine how advanced the player base will become. Micro tactics that were not possible at point in time "A" become do-able by the best players at time "A + 6 months". As a result, any RTS game with diverse races and players dedicating their lives to improving at the game will require balance tweaks. It does not mean the game is "sick". Brood War is well designed. Brood War still went through 30 months of balance changes.
I'd disagree, because you do not promote improvement with constant balance tweaking, you actually inhibit it. Well, this of course depends on the scale of the changes, really minor number tweaks do not fundamentally alter the playing experience, but that simply has not been the case for SC2.
We are slowly beginning to scratch at the 10 years for SC2 and this game still sees pretty substantial changes made to the game balance as well as unit design on a (way too) regular basis and while there of course has been improvement of player skill over the years, this constant tweaking is by no means related to people becoming too good at the game IMO.
What we have been experiencing for the last couple of years is what I call maintenance mode, purely aimed to retain the user base there is and keep them interested (also trying to get veteran players to maybe have another look at the game they got bored of years ago). The balance team has repeatedly stated they'd rather stop patching the game if it was in a really good spot balance-wise, yet we see at least one major overhaul per year.
So, now you could get the impression that they simply can't seem to find the right spot and by trying out all sorts of different things they only create more and more problems on the way they need to inevitably address at a later point, creating this infinite loop of bandaid fixes.
Aside from people who still put in endless hours of gametime the rest of the bunch is forced to re-learn aspects of the game over and over again, which is obviously fun to some, but others could also say it prevents them from actually working on things they want to improve on and artificially setting them back.
What I personally really dislike about this approach is that if you liked the game at a certain state (edit: By that I don't mean exploiting imbalanced stuff like 'Hurrdurr, I loved the BL/Infestor era because ez wins!'), you'll never know how long that's gonna last, the next patch might be right around the corner.
Edit: That shit just gives me WoW flashbacks, where classes essentially just took turns on being OP, so it was more like 'What am I gonna reroll for next season?' instead of reaching a place where you could still be successful regardless of the flavor of the month.
On July 19 2019 11:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Constant balance tweaks are required because its impossible to determine how advanced the player base will become. Micro tactics that were not possible at point in time "A" become do-able by the best players at time "A + 6 months". As a result, any RTS game with diverse races and players dedicating their lives to improving at the game will require balance tweaks. It does not mean the game is "sick". Brood War is well designed. Brood War still went through 30 months of balance changes.
I'd disagree, because you do not promote improvement with constant balance tweaking, you actually inhibit it. Well, this of course depends on the scale of the changes, really minor number tweaks do not fundamentally alter the playing experience, but that simply has not been the case for SC2.
We are slowly beginning to scratch at the 10 years for SC2 and this game still sees pretty substantial changes made to the game balance as well as unit design on a (way too) regular basis and while there of course has been improvement of player skill over the years, this constant tweaking is by no means related to people becoming too good at the game IMO.
What we have been experiencing for the last couple of years is what I call maintenance mode, purely aimed to retain the user base there is and keep them interested (also trying to get veteran players to maybe have another look at the game they got bored of years ago). The balance team has repeatedly stated they'd rather stop patching the game if it was in a really good spot balance-wise, yet we see at least one major overhaul per year.
So, now you could get the impression that they simply can't seem to find the right spot and by trying out all sorts of different things they only create more and more problems on the way they need to inevitably address at a later point, creating this infinite loop of bandaid fixes.
Aside from people who still put in endless hours of gametime the rest of the bunch is forced to re-learn aspects of the game over and over again, which is obviously fun to some, but others could also say it prevents them from actually working on things they want to improve on and artificially setting them back.
What I personally really dislike about this approach is that if you liked the game at a certain state (edit: By that I don't mean exploiting imbalanced stuff like 'Hurrdurr, I loved the BL/Infestor era because ez wins!'), you'll never know how long that's gonna last, the next patch might be right around the corner.
Edit: That shit just gives me WoW flashbacks, where classes essentially just took turns on being OP, so it was more like 'What am I gonna reroll for next season?' instead of reaching a place where you could still be successful regardless of the flavor of the month.
Uhm, no.
Blizzard is in full control of maps, balance and basically everything. So it's their responsibility to solve the stuff. What would be solved by community maps in BW is an issue in SC2 because of the ladder and Blizzard control.
On July 19 2019 11:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Constant balance tweaks are required because its impossible to determine how advanced the player base will become. Micro tactics that were not possible at point in time "A" become do-able by the best players at time "A + 6 months". As a result, any RTS game with diverse races and players dedicating their lives to improving at the game will require balance tweaks. It does not mean the game is "sick". Brood War is well designed. Brood War still went through 30 months of balance changes.
I'd disagree, because you do not promote improvement with constant balance tweaking, you actually inhibit it. Well, this of course depends on the scale of the changes, really minor number tweaks do not fundamentally alter the playing experience, but that simply has not been the case for SC2.
We are slowly beginning to scratch at the 10 years for SC2 and this game still sees pretty substantial changes made to the game balance as well as unit design on a (way too) regular basis and while there of course has been improvement of player skill over the years, this constant tweaking is by no means related to people becoming too good at the game IMO.
What we have been experiencing for the last couple of years is what I call maintenance mode, purely aimed to retain the user base there is and keep them interested (also trying to get veteran players to maybe have another look at the game they got bored of years ago). The balance team has repeatedly stated they'd rather stop patching the game if it was in a really good spot balance-wise, yet we see at least one major overhaul per year.
So, now you could get the impression that they simply can't seem to find the right spot and by trying out all sorts of different things they only create more and more problems on the way they need to inevitably address at a later point, creating this infinite loop of bandaid fixes.
Aside from people who still put in endless hours of gametime the rest of the bunch is forced to re-learn aspects of the game over and over again, which is obviously fun to some, but others could also say it prevents them from actually working on things they want to improve on and artificially setting them back.
What I personally really dislike about this approach is that if you liked the game at a certain state (edit: By that I don't mean exploiting imbalanced stuff like 'Hurrdurr, I loved the BL/Infestor era because ez wins!'), you'll never know how long that's gonna last, the next patch might be right around the corner.
Edit: That shit just gives me WoW flashbacks, where classes essentially just took turns on being OP, so it was more like 'What am I gonna reroll for next season?' instead of reaching a place where you could still be successful regardless of the flavor of the month.
Uhm, no.
Blizzard is in full control of maps, balance and basically everything. So it's their responsibility to solve the stuff. What would be solved by community maps in BW is an issue in SC2 because of the ladder and Blizzard control.
And in what way does that contradict what I was saying? My point is that constant balance tweaking is not the result of players constantly improving to a point where the current skill ceiling allows them to abuse certain mechanics, which weren't seen as problematic before, but instead the result of creating a vicious circle of needing to fix problems created by attempts to fix problems - OR they just change stuff because change is gud.
Edit: Plus you could say that community maps do find their way into the mappool via TL map contest.
Well at least they're identifying what things are dumb and annoying for the game. Of course they don't want to eradicate them, but at least they're addressing them. Prism pickup range is a complete abomination, and while protoss are relying on it heavily, it's incredibly dumb in a game design perspective. I'd be all for nerfing it to 3 and buffing other things like sentries or reverting immortal cost (much less dangerous without 6 prism range) Another thing I'd like blizz to address is the fact that the reaper is completely useless past early game/early rushes. It's a shame. It's the only unit that has absolutely 0 value past the early game, even roaches and adepts can still be useful for harass or fast reproduction.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
And still winrate is 50/50. Fantasy should've known tanks suck
I don't think that FanTaSy lost to Dear, because he made one unit over another.
I don't know why you emphasize the names, in season 2 FanTaSy beat both Rogue and Leenock (the only Zerg apart from Dark who could go toe to toe with Maru in a macro game in 2018) and came very close to beating Stats, so I don't take FanTaSy lightly (but yes, Protoss players are much more skilled than Terran players, that's the reason for 7/8 Protoss in Super Tournament ro8 and why Protoss keeps owning Terrans). Jokes aside, even the casters emphasized they didn't know what could or think FanTaSy should or could have done anything better to defend in both games he got roflstomped by Dear. If you don't think there's something fundamentally wrong with the matchup then you're delusional. But to stay on topic, this "balance" patch still does almost nothing to address the real issues, as I've pointed out in my last post and as BeastyQT pointed out on yesterday's Pylon show. It's just another band-aid for the game as Blizzard has done countless times, because that is much easier to do than it is to address the real issues the game has.
On July 19 2019 11:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Constant balance tweaks are required because its impossible to determine how advanced the player base will become. Micro tactics that were not possible at point in time "A" become do-able by the best players at time "A + 6 months". As a result, any RTS game with diverse races and players dedicating their lives to improving at the game will require balance tweaks. It does not mean the game is "sick". Brood War is well designed. Brood War still went through 30 months of balance changes.
I'd disagree, because you do not promote improvement with constant balance tweaking, you actually inhibit it. Well, this of course depends on the scale of the changes, really minor number tweaks do not fundamentally alter the playing experience, but that simply has not been the case for SC2.
We are slowly beginning to scratch at the 10 years for SC2 and this game still sees pretty substantial changes made to the game balance as well as unit design on a (way too) regular basis and while there of course has been improvement of player skill over the years, this constant tweaking is by no means related to people becoming too good at the game IMO.
What we have been experiencing for the last couple of years is what I call maintenance mode, purely aimed to retain the user base there is and keep them interested (also trying to get veteran players to maybe have another look at the game they got bored of years ago). The balance team has repeatedly stated they'd rather stop patching the game if it was in a really good spot balance-wise, yet we see at least one major overhaul per year.
So, now you could get the impression that they simply can't seem to find the right spot and by trying out all sorts of different things they only create more and more problems on the way they need to inevitably address at a later point, creating this infinite loop of bandaid fixes.
Aside from people who still put in endless hours of gametime the rest of the bunch is forced to re-learn aspects of the game over and over again, which is obviously fun to some, but others could also say it prevents them from actually working on things they want to improve on and artificially setting them back.
What I personally really dislike about this approach is that if you liked the game at a certain state (edit: By that I don't mean exploiting imbalanced stuff like 'Hurrdurr, I loved the BL/Infestor era because ez wins!'), you'll never know how long that's gonna last, the next patch might be right around the corner.
Edit: That shit just gives me WoW flashbacks, where classes essentially just took turns on being OP, so it was more like 'What am I gonna reroll for next season?' instead of reaching a place where you could still be successful regardless of the flavor of the month.
Uhm, no.
Blizzard is in full control of maps, balance and basically everything. So it's their responsibility to solve the stuff. What would be solved by community maps in BW is an issue in SC2 because of the ladder and Blizzard control.
And in what way does that contradict what I was saying? My point is that constant balance tweaking is not the result of players constantly improving to a point where the current skill ceiling allows them to abuse certain mechanics, which weren't seen as problematic before, but instead the result of creating a vicious circle of needing to fix problems created by attempts to fix problems - OR they just change stuff because change is gud.
Edit: Plus you could say that community maps do find their way into the mappool via TL map contest.
it's not, my point was that they need to change the shit and can't leave it stale because they're directly responsible and NO ONE ELSE CAN. The latter is the big reason. In BW you could have changed things via custom maps. Now you can't. The way the game was designed and is kept alive is in a direct contradiction of keeping it stale. Because you need some change to the game to keep it alive.
While TL map contest is great(usually the maps are fine) it also gave us such gems as TvP Acropolis, where TvP sits at 66 % and ZvP at 56 %. Then it gave us Cyber Forest, TvZ at 45 % and PvT at 60 %. Let's be real, in BO3 you, as a player, have 2 vetoes. In case you're Terran and you face Protoss the P player knows you will veto these two maps or he has an advantage. On the other side of the balance we have King's Cove and Turbo Cruise(PvT @ 44 and 41 %). None of them reaches Acropolis level of balance, but let's call it "balanced". So right now until Blizzard changes something(either balance or map pool) we have a guaranteed BO3 map pool. Sure, some players will plan a crazy builds for these bad maps, but that's usually a one time thing(or they go against the odds)
IS this bad for the game? Well, kinda. A true community map making would be able to remove 2 worst maps and replace them with something more friendlier, so we have only 2 unbalanced maps(1 for each side) which would give us bigger variety in BO3(which is the most seen format as BO5+ is usually played from RO8 forward, which isn't that many games).
Similarly we can say - well, look now, after 7 months players found a way how to play against Protoss. What we don't see that we screwed many players earnings by this period. And even then we can't be sure it's over as there aren't enough games played and as a bonus Blizzard did the splitting which means we have flawed games.
TL map contest is a great thing but we can't just vote a map into a map pool from SC2 itself by popular demand. (which shouldn't be a hard thing to do IMO, vote it into a nomination, give it some review process etc.) And companies can't replace big portion of the maps as players practice on the ladder and Blizzcon points.
The vicious cycle comes from the fact that they never addressed the big issues which are design flaw and just applied a band aid after band aid. To name the big ones 1) Defender advantage vs warp ins 2) weak basic gw units(because #1) means Protoss has to have strong "non basic" GW units or robo/sg units. Which resulted in the deathball 3) You need Queen for early game AA defense, injects(which are crucial part of the Zerg economy), creep spread(because vision & movement speed) and because of transfuses even the defense. This resulted in the omnipotent Queen and everything Zerg is based on the queen. Which is so wrong. (we can go on and on)
Balance wise all of this was fine most of the time of SC2. Design wise it's an issue of the future. Because if you change the queen you just broke the zerg and you need to fix it. if you change the warp ins you will break the Protoss and you need to adjust this. Etc.
The issue is that the game has long time discovered flaws no one addressed and the more we know about the game the more people can abuse some stuff. So eventually all the flaws(even the small ones) which aren't the issue are a potential game breaking moment later. Either with some new map features or simply because people got so good it suddenly is an issue(good thing to show this on could be the WP pick up range as it didn't started as this huge issue, it grew slowly). And this returns us to our mighty overseer Blizzard who are the only people that can change the issues as we cannot
I hope now it's more understandable (considering when I write it I doubt it )
On July 19 2019 01:33 necrosexy wrote: no nydus changes. why?
Like seriously, why has there not been something done about this? The ultra-fast ling flood nydus rushes are incredibly frustrating and not fun. Anything less than a perfect defense against them results in a loss but doing them is trivially easy. They're as coin-flippy as oracle builds or hellbat drops were in HOTS.
Make the faster unload an upgrade so it can be used as they wanted in the lategame, revert the armour on the worm exits so workers can at least kill it if it gets scouted, or make the exit build time longer. Something needs to be done. As is they are incredibly stupid. If you are even a half second late with your response you just lose because 2+ queens pop out and immediately transfuse.
Everyone said the unload speed buff was a bad idea. Even the zerg pros were saying that it was too much. Why did they go through with it?
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
And still winrate is 50/50. Fantasy should've known tanks suck
I don't think that FanTaSy lost to Dear, because he made one unit over another.
I don't know why you emphasize the names, in season 2 FanTaSy beat both Rogue and Leenock (the only Zerg apart from Dark who could go toe to toe with Maru in a macro game in 2018) and came very close to beating Stats, so I don't take FanTaSy lightly (but yes, Protoss players are much more skilled than Terran players, that's the reason for 7/8 Protoss in Super Tournament ro8 and why Protoss keeps owning Terrans). Jokes aside, even the casters emphasized they didn't know what could or think FanTaSy should or could have done anything better to defend in both games he got roflstomped by Dear. If you don't think there's something fundamentally wrong with the matchup then you're delusional. But to stay on topic, this "balance" patch still does almost nothing to address the real issues, as I've pointed out in my last post and as BeastyQT pointed out on yesterday's Pylon show. It's just another band-aid for the game as Blizzard has done countless times, because that is much easier to do than it is to address the real issues the game has.
If you don't think that Dear is a much better player than FanTaSy, in every matchup, then there's no arguing here. Nice talk.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
And still winrate is 50/50. Fantasy should've known tanks suck
I don't think that FanTaSy lost to Dear, because he made one unit over another.
I don't know why you emphasize the names, in season 2 FanTaSy beat both Rogue and Leenock (the only Zerg apart from Dark who could go toe to toe with Maru in a macro game in 2018) and came very close to beating Stats, so I don't take FanTaSy lightly (but yes, Protoss players are much more skilled than Terran players, that's the reason for 7/8 Protoss in Super Tournament ro8 and why Protoss keeps owning Terrans). Jokes aside, even the casters emphasized they didn't know what could or think FanTaSy should or could have done anything better to defend in both games he got roflstomped by Dear. If you don't think there's something fundamentally wrong with the matchup then you're delusional. But to stay on topic, this "balance" patch still does almost nothing to address the real issues, as I've pointed out in my last post and as BeastyQT pointed out on yesterday's Pylon show. It's just another band-aid for the game as Blizzard has done countless times, because that is much easier to do than it is to address the real issues the game has.
If you don't think that Dear is a much better player than FanTaSy, in every matchup, then there's no arguing here. Nice talk.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
And still winrate is 50/50. Fantasy should've known tanks suck
I don't think that FanTaSy lost to Dear, because he made one unit over another.
I don't know why you emphasize the names, in season 2 FanTaSy beat both Rogue and Leenock (the only Zerg apart from Dark who could go toe to toe with Maru in a macro game in 2018) and came very close to beating Stats, so I don't take FanTaSy lightly (but yes, Protoss players are much more skilled than Terran players, that's the reason for 7/8 Protoss in Super Tournament ro8 and why Protoss keeps owning Terrans). Jokes aside, even the casters emphasized they didn't know what could or think FanTaSy should or could have done anything better to defend in both games he got roflstomped by Dear. If you don't think there's something fundamentally wrong with the matchup then you're delusional. But to stay on topic, this "balance" patch still does almost nothing to address the real issues, as I've pointed out in my last post and as BeastyQT pointed out on yesterday's Pylon show. It's just another band-aid for the game as Blizzard has done countless times, because that is much easier to do than it is to address the real issues the game has.
One clip doesn't convince me there's something "fundamentally" wrong with the matchup. In the first GSL season (on the same patch) there was a game where Maru destroyed Dear and the casters were absolutely clueless on what Dear could've done better but I don't use this as evidence TvP is broken in Terrans favor.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
On July 20 2019 12:21 scoo2r wrote: The ghost upgrade is good but it probably wont be used much
yeah my concern is that its hard to afford even 150 gas as terran in mid or late game tvp thats why often you see terran have to make realy hard choices, like lib range or +2 +2 upgrades its just hard to afford both, maybe with the faster stim though we will see new builds that are more economical out of terran, or at least less crazy runaway growth from toss and terran will actualy have this kind of money mid game.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
lets get this straight reason why fantasy lost is because he built tanks vs archon/zealot/imortal based army. If he had 5ghost instead of tanks, he would have wiped the that army out without losing single marine.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
1 - yeah, that's the point of archons, to soak the shots of the tanks which won't kill them while zealots would die instantly 2 - doesn't matter if the only thing reliably shooting are some tanks and not all the tanks and your bio is scared away with storm 3 - doesn't affect storm dps
While that looks bad it's not a balance issue, tanks aren't supposed to wipe out every ground unit Terrans point them at, especially if we're talking about same or better tier than tanks are.
If you want zealots to be the meatshield they need to buff their suvivability, they are actually quite fragile for a meatshield. At the same time their DPS is astonishing for a meatshield unit, so, uhm
On July 17 2019 05:57 -KG- wrote: I really don't get it. We had an overweight of P in RO8 in the GSL super tournament but in the bigger picture P hasn't won sh*t of the premier tournaments in both 2018 and 2019. And yet, all Blizz can focus on is rather big nerfs to P and buffs to the other races. There was a game earlier today on Stats' stream that displayed just how overpowered and completely un-engageable mass infestors are right now - how can this not be the main issue in terms of balance right now?
But but ! Qualifiers ! Yeah apparently that's a thing
Now let's see how many video game design expert i can count here...
This is really broken if you ask me. In those standings, there is only 1 Terran (Maru) and 2 Zergs (Dark and Soo). This balance patch can't come fast enough.
13 Protoss 12 Zergs 10 Terrans
This is an outrage ! Clearly people like Armani alive or keen are better than Dear or classic or trap .. oh wait
Yeah, this is totally about Armani and Keen and not about Inno, TY, Rogue, Solar. Nice strawman.
Inno that's been even beaten by Keen and Creator ? TY who won the same amount of Championship that Trap ? or Classic that won more? Rogue that topped his group in GSL ? Solar that topped his group with two protoss without losing a map ?
Don't get me wrong. I love TY, Rogue and Solar but we are here talking about Classic who's a powerhouse, Trap that is an ex champion on the rise again. herO which is a really good one, Stats i don't need to talk about it or Dear that also won championships in the past.
Sure Trap & Dear can be taken as "low player" but they have the champions mentality and are here since the dawn of time. They are not nobodies.
And btw if we're adding WCS to the discussion then it's even worse it's Zerg dominate WCS circuit. Out of the Ro16 of last WCS protoss was as represented as Terran and by Quarter finals Protoss was the lowest.
And you know what. I don't like Protoss, i don't play protoss but this is overexageration.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Also, the Zealot absolutely has to be stronger than a marine or zergling as it costs double the minerals and double the supply. People seem to forget this and just act like the Zealot should be equivalent in strength to a marine or zergling.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either.
If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there
I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
Okay
1 - His Zealots are trailing because he wants the archons to soak the damage from the siege tanks 2- His storms push his bio back so they cant do damage while he moves through 3- Damage inflicted while he went through the slowed area was really low hence why he could push through it
Storm damage and zoning bio back and archons soaking the initial tank fire is why he managed to make it work,it was well executed.
I understand it must be frustrating to watch as a Terran but your bias is clouding your judgement
On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote: Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either.
If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there
I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point )
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either.
If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there
I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point )
I'm not a 100% on that but I believe that smart fire is hard coded into the game's engine therefore cannot be disabled easily.
I agree that buffing tank is not the way to make mech more viable in TvP and would probably just incite terrans to play marine tank even more. Marine + 3 factory tank production is already a common build in current's meta. The synergy of chargelots + immortals vs mech is the reason we still see mostly bio in TvP imo, but I honestly don't know if it's possible to tweak it without disrupting massively PvZ which relies heavily on that composition. Balance is hard.
That's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either.
If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there
I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point )
So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio
On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote: [quote]
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either.
If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there
I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point )
So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio
no thanks lol
haha. this is why we wont have a balanced game ever. When people keep looking at units in a vacuum.
broodwar is the pinnacle of balance and, admittedly, a fluke of cosmic proportions. But its still the gold standard of balance.
On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote: [quote]
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either.
If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there
I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point )
So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio
no thanks lol
Now you have more ways how to counter these "broken" tanks though We won't know until we test it. Also we have plenty of free units units in the game now so turning of the smartfire would be a big nerf in TvZ. Honestly I would be more worried about TvP considering the baiting units.
The current issue of tank strength is basically the same for the whole game. They can't be any more powerful with the smartfire. And while I don't like the buff(I am a strong a-mover) I must admit that a-moving through tanks isn't what should be happening either.
In the end it's all about whether we want the tanks to zone out ALL the ground units(at least on the lower and same-ish tech tier) or whether we want them to be useful only in certain situations/MU. I say they should be zoning and zoning hard.
(my 2nd step would be removing liberator as fuck flying siege tank)
Smart fire isn't built in, plenty of units with projectile attacks already overkill (stalkers for example). It should be possible to add something to try that with tanks.
Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!?
On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote: Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
Nerfing infested terrans because they kill carriers is like nerfing tempests because they kill brood lords. Or banelings because they kill marines. I mean, they are there to prevent mass air, there's no reason they should not shred air units...
On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote: Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
Nerfing infested terrans because they kill carriers is like nerfing tempests because they kill brood lords. Or banelings because they kill marines. I mean, they are there to prevent mass air, there's no reason they should not shred air units...
That's nice answer but the question/suggestion was - can we get a better lategame composition that's not a Golden Armada? From the WoL times the super endgame composition has been the Golden Armada. While keeping IT to shred it is fine - then what is the super endgame composition? What else? You can't just give a race super hardcounter of the strongest unit composition and ignore the fact it should be the strongest composition
On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote: Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!?
blizzard has consistently doubled down on air being the ultimate army, and it sucks. it's bad design. air units follow different rules and slow down the game when they're the main army.
what ive wanted for quite some time is a completely separate air unit supply that would be limited to something like 30-50, but it's a radical idea and probably won't happen ever unless we get a SC3
On July 22 2019 11:20 ThunderJunk wrote: After thinking about it a long time, I actually really like the zealot change.
The ghost change will probably push more P into disruptors.
Not sure yet if they're going to be able to fix lategame ZvP, but this is all a step in the right direction.
Libs destroy disruptors, it will just be more tempest ht vs ghost libs vikings. There is nothing else protoss can make that trades well against well balance ghost/lib/viking composition and in some mobile mmm squads and its deadly..
Obviously protoss can just go mid/late game army (archon/ht/colosus/immortal with gateway army support) and try to take the fight to terran, which wouldnt let terran easily get his dream composition.
On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote: Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!?
blizzard has consistently doubled down on air being the ultimate army, and it sucks. it's bad design. air units follow different rules and slow down the game when they're the main army.
what ive wanted for quite some time is a completely separate air unit supply that would be limited to something like 30-50, but it's a radical idea and probably won't happen ever unless we get a SC3
The game is IMO too fast to have 2 supply to follow.
The issue is they moved so many important units into the air. While I can see why/where the BL comes from - tempest & liberator was added later when we know how bad lategame air army is and these didn't make the things right.
Also it's quite funny, wasn't liberator firstly announced as the anti-muta gun? And again it's about mutalisk spores, thors, phoenixes, so many patches about mutalisks for all races
On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote: [quote] Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either.
If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there
I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point )
So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio
no thanks lol
haha. this is why we wont have a balanced game ever. When people keep looking at units in a vacuum.
broodwar is the pinnacle of balance and, admittedly, a fluke of cosmic proportions. But its still the gold standard of balance.
Don't forget to credit the great maps that came out in broodwar. Nobody would consider BW to be "gold standard of balance" if we only played on the maps that came with the game.
On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote: Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!?
blizzard has consistently doubled down on air being the ultimate army, and it sucks. it's bad design. air units follow different rules and slow down the game when they're the main army.
what ive wanted for quite some time is a completely separate air unit supply that would be limited to something like 30-50, but it's a radical idea and probably won't happen ever unless we get a SC3
Radical but I quite like it myself.
Air harassment options are some of my favourite units in the game, giant air balls are one of my least favourite, especially with capital ships. Has been silly in the past with muta remaxes, or phoenix wars
You could make capital ships even stronger too, it’d be cool to have a few Carriers be really strong for example, but not snowball hugely.
As it stands, provided you can get the setup, 2 BCs or Carriers are better than one, 3 better than 2 etc etc.
Yeah it might be arbitrary to add an air supply cap, but ultimately if a few other things were tweaked to bring things back more to the ground I’d prefer it, I’m sure I’m not alone in disliking all three races’ lategames when they all take to the skies.
Interactions are more interesting on terra firma, the map architecture counts, positioning around that counts. Units don’t clump up and be quite visually confusing (to me anyway), etc.
It might mess with TvT quite a bit in terms of Viking wars for supremacy, but on the other hand that might be a good thing. Could be interesting that the viking spotting advantage is less snowbally and down to more factors than simply building more vikings
On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote: [quote] I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either.
If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there
I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point )
So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio
no thanks lol
haha. this is why we wont have a balanced game ever. When people keep looking at units in a vacuum.
broodwar is the pinnacle of balance and, admittedly, a fluke of cosmic proportions. But its still the gold standard of balance.
Don't forget to credit the great maps that came out in broodwar. Nobody would consider BW to be "gold standard of balance" if we only played on the maps that came with the game.
Brood War has had periods of imbalance in matchups at the competitive level that far exceed anything we’ve ever really seen in SC2
Different era, Blizzard weren’t actively patching the game itself for balance, and people were a bit more patient, probably as unlike today complaining doesn’t lead to things being patched out.
SC2 has been pretty well balanced for its run so far, in my opinion miraculously so considering how many mechanics I consider extremely wonky exist in the game.
On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote: [quote] I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either.
If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there
I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point )
So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio
no thanks lol
haha. this is why we wont have a balanced game ever. When people keep looking at units in a vacuum.
broodwar is the pinnacle of balance and, admittedly, a fluke of cosmic proportions. But its still the gold standard of balance.
Don't forget to credit the great maps that came out in broodwar. Nobody would consider BW to be "gold standard of balance" if we only played on the maps that came with the game.
On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote: Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!?
blizzard has consistently doubled down on air being the ultimate army, and it sucks. it's bad design. air units follow different rules and slow down the game when they're the main army.
what ive wanted for quite some time is a completely separate air unit supply that would be limited to something like 30-50, but it's a radical idea and probably won't happen ever unless we get a SC3
Radical but I quite like it myself.
Air harassment options are some of my favourite units in the game, giant air balls are one of my least favourite, especially with capital ships. Has been silly in the past with muta remaxes, or phoenix wars
You could make capital ships even stronger too, it’d be cool to have a few Carriers be really strong for example, but not snowball hugely.
As it stands, provided you can get the setup, 2 BCs or Carriers are better than one, 3 better than 2 etc etc.
Yeah it might be arbitrary to add an air supply cap, but ultimately if a few other things were tweaked to bring things back more to the ground I’d prefer it, I’m sure I’m not alone in disliking all three races’ lategames when they all take to the skies.
Interactions are more interesting on terra firma, the map architecture counts, positioning around that counts. Units don’t clump up and be quite visually confusing (to me anyway), etc.
It might mess with TvT quite a bit in terms of Viking wars for supremacy, but on the other hand that might be a good thing. Could be interesting that the viking spotting advantage is less snowbally and down to more factors than simply building more vikings
Carriers will snowball always - interceptors. Similarly swarm hosts, brood lords, infestors vs air. Generally any unit which DPS is based on how many units it produces to do the damage. You would have to change how the Carrier works, that's the reason why Blizzard removed the catapult. To lower the snowballing issue you can lower the interceptor count and give some weapons to the capital ship itself and I don't know how that would be received considering the rage about removing carrier. On the other hand I always thought that it should have some guns because once it loses interceptors it's useless and it's not like there's no room there Maybe limit interceptors to 4 and add cannons giving the rest of the DPS working the same way as BCs(shooting while moving)
Edit> technically it's not about the created units but about the number of attacks and how well they scale up. It's just best seen at units which generate units(IMO). BCs will get out of hand quite fast too in case you want to defend them via ground units.
I really don't envy Blizzard the position they are in. On one hand, the game can probably be band-aided into a good spot with constant minor tweaks. On the other hand Legacy of the Void will never feel as good to play as it could, as long as two things remain unchanged:
1) lategame air armies: air units should be viable only as support for the ground forces, and not as a core composition. Either that. or every race should have a viable counter to mass air on the ground, since mass air standoffs are the most boring thing to watch and play in SC2. As it stands, only Zerg has that in form of infested terrans, which is really bad for the health of the game, since they are free units. As long as the power of air compositions is unchanged, the game will not be played to its fullest entertaining potential, because huge portions of early and midgame that we had in HotS are skipped, since everyone is rushing towards the inevitable air transition. Right now, broodlords are out by 10th minute mark, which is insane and doesn't allow the game to actually develop into a fast-paced entertainment that it should be. This brings us to the 2nd point:
2) starting economy: at the start of LotV, Blizzard changed starting worker count from 6 to 12 and gave main buildings 4 more supply generation. This was to speed up the build-up phase of the game. However, without compensating tweaks to infrastructure and upgrades, this change actually gave us more bad things than good ones. With the starting economy being buffed, resources start accumulating much faster, which obviously benefits the race that can actually spend those resources. Terran is limited by nature of production buildings requiring addons, Zerg is limited by the amount of larva produced before the queens are out, and the Protoss is not really limited by anything. On top of that, Protoss has chronoboost online from the start of the game, and while larva injects and mules were nerfed, chrono was actually buffed. So now we, even in the early game, have a bit of a Protoss advantage, since they are better equipped to spend the additional resources (but that is not relevant yet). The 2nd thing that happened was that they made bases mine out faster to promote expanding instead of turtling. This, however, forces the players to expand like crazy, before they even have the time to finish up their production. Currently in some games, the Zergs easily have 5-6 bases by the 10th minute mark, which obviously results in extra income. So now, both players have comfortably expanded to stabilize their income and can finally start investing more resources into their armies. But since the economy explosion gives you so much more resources, both players can go into the composition they want, which is of course the most efficient one: air.
However, if Blizzard reverts the economy changes, they will again have to balance and fine-tune the game more, since the new units added in LotV are balanced around LotV economy. Zerg will have a hard time dealing with early on, and Protoss might just straight up be underpowered, since they are the race that benefited the most from the economy changes. In my point of view, this is a hard choice, because either reverting the economy changes or nerfing air/buffing its ground counters will require a lot of work for the balance team. However, I am optimistic to actually see one of these two changes implemented in the game, maybe not in 2019, but I'm sure something will be done before the end of next year.
I really don't envy Blizzard the position they are in. On one hand, the game can probably be band-aided into a good spot with constant minor tweaks. On the other hand Legacy of the Void will never feel as good to play as it could, as long as two things remain unchanged:
1) lategame air armies: air units should be viable only as support for the ground forces, and not as a core composition. Either that. or every race should have a viable counter to mass air on the ground, since mass air standoffs are the most boring thing to watch and play in SC2. As it stands, only Zerg has that in form of infested terrans, which is really bad for the health of the game, since they are free units. As long as the power of air compositions is unchanged, the game will not be played to its fullest entertaining potential, because huge portions of early and midgame that we had in HotS are skipped, since everyone is rushing towards the inevitable air transition. Right now, broodlords are out by 10th minute mark, which is insane and doesn't allow the game to actually develop into a fast-paced entertainment that it should be. This brings us to the 2nd point:
2) starting economy: at the start of LotV, Blizzard changed starting worker count from 6 to 12 and gave main buildings 4 more supply generation. This was to speed up the build-up phase of the game. However, without compensating tweaks to infrastructure and upgrades, this change actually gave us more bad things than good ones. With the starting economy being buffed, resources start accumulating much faster, which obviously benefits the race that can actually spend those resources. Terran is limited by nature of production buildings requiring addons, Zerg is limited by the amount of larva produced before the queens are out, and the Protoss is not really limited by anything. On top of that, Protoss has chronoboost online from the start of the game, and while larva injects and mules were nerfed, chrono was actually buffed. So now we, even in the early game, have a bit of a Protoss advantage, since they are better equipped to spend the additional resources (but that is not relevant yet). The 2nd thing that happened was that they made bases mine out faster to promote expanding instead of turtling. This, however, forces the players to expand like crazy, before they even have the time to finish up their production. Currently in some games, the Zergs easily have 5-6 bases by the 10th minute mark, which obviously results in extra income. So now, both players have comfortably expanded to stabilize their income and can finally start investing more resources into their armies. But since the economy explosion gives you so much more resources, both players can go into the composition they want, which is of course the most efficient one: air.
However, if Blizzard reverts the economy changes, they will again have to balance and fine-tune the game more, since the new units added in LotV are balanced around LotV economy. Zerg will have a hard time dealing with early on, and Protoss might just straight up be underpowered, since they are the race that benefited the most from the economy changes. In my point of view, this is a hard choice, because either reverting the economy changes or nerfing air/buffing its ground counters will require a lot of work for the balance team. However, I am optimistic to actually see one of these two changes implemented in the game, maybe not in 2019, but I'm sure something will be done before the end of next year.
They can try lower the workers for 9 start. They can try to change the capital ships, but it would require some radical changes. I can imagine flag ships at much higher supply with higher stats. But that requires rebalancing way too much for the current Blizzard IMO
I really don't envy Blizzard the position they are in. On one hand, the game can probably be band-aided into a good spot with constant minor tweaks. On the other hand Legacy of the Void will never feel as good to play as it could, as long as two things remain unchanged:
1) lategame air armies: air units should be viable only as support for the ground forces, and not as a core composition. Either that. or every race should have a viable counter to mass air on the ground, since mass air standoffs are the most boring thing to watch and play in SC2. As it stands, only Zerg has that in form of infested terrans, which is really bad for the health of the game, since they are free units. As long as the power of air compositions is unchanged, the game will not be played to its fullest entertaining potential, because huge portions of early and midgame that we had in HotS are skipped, since everyone is rushing towards the inevitable air transition. Right now, broodlords are out by 10th minute mark, which is insane and doesn't allow the game to actually develop into a fast-paced entertainment that it should be. This brings us to the 2nd point:
2) starting economy: at the start of LotV, Blizzard changed starting worker count from 6 to 12 and gave main buildings 4 more supply generation. This was to speed up the build-up phase of the game. However, without compensating tweaks to infrastructure and upgrades, this change actually gave us more bad things than good ones. With the starting economy being buffed, resources start accumulating much faster, which obviously benefits the race that can actually spend those resources. Terran is limited by nature of production buildings requiring addons, Zerg is limited by the amount of larva produced before the queens are out, and the Protoss is not really limited by anything. On top of that, Protoss has chronoboost online from the start of the game, and while larva injects and mules were nerfed, chrono was actually buffed. So now we, even in the early game, have a bit of a Protoss advantage, since they are better equipped to spend the additional resources (but that is not relevant yet). The 2nd thing that happened was that they made bases mine out faster to promote expanding instead of turtling. This, however, forces the players to expand like crazy, before they even have the time to finish up their production. Currently in some games, the Zergs easily have 5-6 bases by the 10th minute mark, which obviously results in extra income. So now, both players have comfortably expanded to stabilize their income and can finally start investing more resources into their armies. But since the economy explosion gives you so much more resources, both players can go into the composition they want, which is of course the most efficient one: air.
However, if Blizzard reverts the economy changes, they will again have to balance and fine-tune the game more, since the new units added in LotV are balanced around LotV economy. Zerg will have a hard time dealing with early on, and Protoss might just straight up be underpowered, since they are the race that benefited the most from the economy changes. In my point of view, this is a hard choice, because either reverting the economy changes or nerfing air/buffing its ground counters will require a lot of work for the balance team. However, I am optimistic to actually see one of these two changes implemented in the game, maybe not in 2019, but I'm sure something will be done before the end of next year.
They can try lower the workers for 9 start. They can try to change the capital ships, but it would require some radical changes. I can imagine flag ships at much higher supply with higher stats. But that requires rebalancing way too much for the current Blizzard IMO
Yeah, but I think the benefits would be huge, because game would be in much better state and would also feel better to play and to watch. Heightening the air unit supply could definitely be a step in the right direction to start things off, but we'll see if Blizzard is interested in that.
On July 17 2019 04:02 Vindicare605 wrote: Removed Changes:
Warp Prisms no longer start with the Warp Conduit passive ability and warp-ins will take 11 seconds when not near a Warp Gate or Nexus, up from 4. The Gravitic Drive upgrade now has the added functionality of granting Warp Prisms the Warp Conduit passive ability, reducing warp-in time from 11 to 4.
Though this change is a significant redesign, it does a good job at addressing multiple issues in one condensed stroke. Some of these issues include the strength and variety of Protoss all-ins in PvZ, the harassment strength of Warp Prisms, and the overall power level of Protoss. In its stead, we’d like to make the following additions with Proposal #2:
Added Changes:
Warp Prism cost increased from 200 to 250 minerals.
The Warp Prism is perceived as a powerful unit with a lot of utility, providing both harassment and all-in opportunities. We believe this cost increase will more accurately reflect the unit’s power level.
At least speaking from the PvZ matchup I'm glad they rolled back (most of) the prism nerfs. I feel PvZ is in a very interesting place lately, with nydus/prism backstabs, armies being split up and skirmishing all over the map. It's a way more interesting metagame than turtling into deathballs/broodlords/carriers.
i assume Blizzard reads the feedback threads and might not read other threads on this site. Thus, i'd like to say this to Blizzard. Pay Wardi some money. If other front line grassroots streams like ZombieGrub are pumping out dozens of hours of SC2 tourney content... then pay her as well.
On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote: Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!?
blizzard has consistently doubled down on air being the ultimate army, and it sucks. it's bad design. air units follow different rules and slow down the game when they're the main army.
what ive wanted for quite some time is a completely separate air unit supply that would be limited to something like 30-50, but it's a radical idea and probably won't happen ever unless we get a SC3
Radical but I quite like it myself.
Air harassment options are some of my favourite units in the game, giant air balls are one of my least favourite, especially with capital ships. Has been silly in the past with muta remaxes, or phoenix wars
You could make capital ships even stronger too, it’d be cool to have a few Carriers be really strong for example, but not snowball hugely.
As it stands, provided you can get the setup, 2 BCs or Carriers are better than one, 3 better than 2 etc etc.
Yeah it might be arbitrary to add an air supply cap, but ultimately if a few other things were tweaked to bring things back more to the ground I’d prefer it, I’m sure I’m not alone in disliking all three races’ lategames when they all take to the skies.
Interactions are more interesting on terra firma, the map architecture counts, positioning around that counts. Units don’t clump up and be quite visually confusing (to me anyway), etc.
It might mess with TvT quite a bit in terms of Viking wars for supremacy, but on the other hand that might be a good thing. Could be interesting that the viking spotting advantage is less snowbally and down to more factors than simply building more vikings
Carriers will snowball always - interceptors. Similarly swarm hosts, brood lords, infestors vs air. Generally any unit which DPS is based on how many units it produces to do the damage. You would have to change how the Carrier works, that's the reason why Blizzard removed the catapult. To lower the snowballing issue you can lower the interceptor count and give some weapons to the capital ship itself and I don't know how that would be received considering the rage about removing carrier. On the other hand I always thought that it should have some guns because once it loses interceptors it's useless and it's not like there's no room there Maybe limit interceptors to 4 and add cannons giving the rest of the DPS working the same way as BCs(shooting while moving)
Edit> technically it's not about the created units but about the number of attacks and how well they scale up. It's just best seen at units which generate units(IMO). BCs will get out of hand quite fast too in case you want to defend them via ground units.
Yeah absolutely man. It’s a difficult problem to figure out.
I like how Carriers work in BW (their microability is part of this too), where a relatively small number can be super strong, but it’s impractical to build 15 carriers or whatever given how the economy works.
In BW I like how capital ships work, but limitations on just building more and more of them are shaped by a different economy to what SC2 has.
The snowball problem is more related to how units scale vs how strong they are individually, IMO.
It’s extremely difficult to get there, but large numbers of 3/3 battlecruisers are incredibly difficult to kill off with any composition, especially for Protoss. They just get better the more you make.
They’re also not very interesting either in that sense, whereas hypothetically stronger capital ships, but limited in number and had to be deployed smartly could be interesting.