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Source: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/sc2/t/community-update-july-16-2019/1505/40
Hey all,
Two weeks ago, we announced our plans to propose and test two separate sets of possible changes for the next big Versus patch. Since our last community update, we’ve gotten a great deal of constructive feedback from the fruitful community discussions around the first set of changes proposed. We are now ready to introduce Proposal #2, which will replace Proposal #1 in the testing tab later today. Partly because of generally positive feedback, both possible iterations of the next patch will include the following:
Stimpack: Upgrade research duration reduced from 121 to 100 seconds.
New upgrade Enhanced Shockwaves: Increases the radius of the Ghost’s EMP Round from 1.5 to 2. Cost: 150/150. Research time: 79 seconds.
Carrier: Interceptor build time decreased from 11 to 9.
Nexus: Strategic Recall cooldown increased from 85 to 130 seconds.
In addition, we saw a bug report circulating around various community forums describing how the Infested Terran’s Infested Rockets weapon ignores armor. We plan to roll out a fix for this along with this upcoming patch, but since this bugfix has a similar effect to our initially proposed Infested Rockets change, we’ll be replacing that change with this bugfix.
Bugfix: Infested Terran: Infested Rockets will no longer ignore armor.
Proposal #2
For Proposal #2, we’ll be including the above changes, but removing our most experimental change involving Warp Prism warp-in speed.
Removed Changes:
Warp Prisms no longer start with the Warp Conduit passive ability and warp-ins will take 11 seconds when not near a Warp Gate or Nexus, up from 4.
The Gravitic Drive upgrade now has the added functionality of granting Warp Prisms the Warp Conduit passive ability, reducing warp-in time from 11 to 4.
Though this change is a significant redesign, it does a good job at addressing multiple issues in one condensed stroke. Some of these issues include the strength and variety of Protoss all-ins in PvZ, the harassment strength of Warp Prisms, and the overall power level of Protoss. In its stead, we’d like to make the following additions with Proposal #2:
Added Changes:
Zerg
Overlord’s Pneumatized Carapace upgrade research cost decreased from 100/100 to 75/75.
We hope this change will address the difficultly Zerg has in the early game, when scouting their Protoss opponents—specifically, their ability to differentiate between tech choices and the various Immortal-based timings. In our initial feedback from professional players, we heard varied opinions regarding the efficacy of this change, so we want to be very careful that Overlord speed openings don’t become omnipresent in either ZvT or ZvP.
Protoss
Warp Prism cost increased from 200 to 250 minerals.
The Warp Prism is perceived as a powerful unit with a lot of utility, providing both harassment and all-in opportunities. We believe this cost increase will more accurately reflect the unit’s power level.
Warp Prism pickup range decreased from 6 to 5.
We view Warp Prism ranged pickup as one of the more positive additions to LotV—it provides for many skill-testing micro opportunities, encourages Protoss to poke at their opponents without overly committing their army, and allows top players the ability to distinguish themselves. On the other hand, the large pickup range can be frustrating to play against and contributes to the potency of Immortal all-ins. As such, we think there is room to adjust the opponent’s ability to interact with the Prism and the level of risk the Prism must put itself in while it juggles its cargo. Our primary concern with the suggested change in the current landscape is that it could potentially impact PvZ macro openings more than it would PvZ all-in openings.
Zealot Charge additional impact damage decreased from 8 to 0. After researching Charge, Zealot will still retain the ability to always hit a fleeting target at least once.
Zealots contribute greatly to the power level of Protoss in all matchups, whether they’re used in direct engagements or as part of a harassment role in combination with Warp Prisms. In both these roles, we believe Zealots might be slightly too powerful relative to their cost and the control required to use them. Our intention with this change is both to lower the frontal power of the Protoss army and to slightly diminish the strength of Zealot harassment throughout the game.
In PvZ, this change will also allow unupgraded Zerglings the ability to take additional hits from Chargelots without +1 ground weapons, allowing them to be much more resilient to Charge-based timings (including popular ones that involve Immortals). It would also restore the relationship between weapon-upgraded Zealots and carapace-upgraded Zerglings, an interaction that dates back to the original StarCraft.
Our general rationale for breaking apart all the aforementioned changes in Proposal #2 from Proposal #1 is that we believe they represent two distinct approaches to addressing many of the same issues. For the Charge change specifically, we believe not only that it has overlap with the Prism warp-in speed change, but the severity of both changes combined would also be too extreme for a mid-year balance patch.
As this change is one to a core Protoss unit that is used at all phases of the game in all matchups, we plan to be extra attentive to how it plays. If it does end up going live, we’ll careful monitor just how significantly each Protoss matchup changes in their respective mid-games.
Testing and Feedback
Now that you’ve heard both proposals and are familiar with all the possible changes for the next balance update, it’s time to deliver your feedback. Which proposal do you like better? Is there anything you would tweak from either proposal? We look forward to hearing from you once again!
–StarCraft II Team
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Overall these look much better than the original group, although I'm personally surprised that Blizz is still going through with the Stim buff. I guess in testing it wasn't as radical of a change as I originally had thought.
The Infestor bug intrigues me though. If Infested Terrans really were ignoring armor before, that would explain why they were so damn strong vs Carriers. Since that's going in as a hotfix we'll get to see right away if Infested Terrans need further nerfing.
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Do this
I propose:
Zerg
Viper Abduct cant be used on massive units.
Infestor Neural parasite range reduced from 9 to 7.
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On July 17 2019 04:09 skdsk wrote:
Do this
Added Changes:
Zerg
Viper Abduct cant be used on massive units.
Infestor Neural parasite range reduced from 9 to 7.
Those aren't in the blue post. If that is what you think SHOULD be added, you should probably say so. Your post made me go back and double check to see if I missed something when I didn't.
EDIT: didn't catch your edit. Your post is fine now. :D Even if I don't agree with it, especially the Neural Nerf would make it unusable vs Terran.
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The warp prism change seems better, but it still feels like Zerg is the stronger race in PvZ with all these changes.
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The changes are reasonable and I think better compared the first version. What is missing is:
1. Forge requires gateway in order to discourage cannon rushing.
2. Disruptor range decreased by 1 in order to make the relationship between tanks and disruptors more even.
3. Nydus worm cost changed to 100/75 so that spamming 4-5 worms in your opponents base actually have a drawback.
4. Neural parasite cost changed to 150 energy to better reflect how strong this ability is.
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On July 17 2019 04:12 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 04:09 skdsk wrote:
Do this
Added Changes:
Zerg
Viper Abduct cant be used on massive units.
Infestor Neural parasite range reduced from 9 to 7. Those aren't in the blue post. If that is what you think SHOULD be added, you should probably say so. Your post made me go back and double check to see if I missed something when I didn't. EDIT: didn't catch your edit. Your post is fine now. :D Even if I don't agree with it, especially the Neural Nerf would make it unusable vs Terran.
both abilities need nerf, only thing i mean, how they do it, is on them.
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What the hell is up with all of this anti-cannon rush nonsense? Cannon rushing is fine, it's been around forever, it's part of the game.
If Cannon Rushing is too strong right now that is a MAP issue not an issue that requires a fundamental retooling of the Protoss tech tree.
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On July 17 2019 04:15 MockHamill wrote:
The changes are reasonable and I think better compared the first version. What is missing is:
1. Forge requires gateway in order to discourage cannon rushing.
2. Disruptor range decreased by 1 in order to make the relationship between tanks and disruptors more even.
3. Nydus worm cost changed to 100/75 so that spamming 4-5 worms in your opponents base actually have a drawback.
4. Neural parasite cost changed to 150 energy to better reflect how strong this ability is.
As much as I despise cannon rushing, it shouldn't be discouraged. NP cost should definitely be increased. It's too OP.
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Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended. As if that makes up for the fact that the strongest part of the game for Protoss gets hit hard.
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On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote:
Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended.
That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem.
It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored.
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On July 17 2019 04:21 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote:
Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended. That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem. It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored.
Scaling with armor upgrades is gonna be less impactful than the flat damage nerf. The ITs will still shred interceptors and void rays to bits since there's no base armor on them, leaving the cleanup to corruptors.
There's also the problem that there's no real counter play to mass infestor anymore. Feedback doesn't kill them and is outranged by fungal either way. Only other long range ground unit Protoss has is the disruptor which is a play that I'm pretty sure doesn't even qualify as a Hail Mary. So Toss goes into air where they're disadvantaged against Zerg.
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On July 17 2019 04:28 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 04:21 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote:
Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended. That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem. It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored. Scaling with armor upgrades is gonna be less impactful than the flat damage nerf. The ITs will still shred interceptors and void rays to bits since there's no base armor on them, leaving the cleanup to corruptors. There's also the problem that there's no real counter play to mass infestor anymore. Feedback doesn't kill them and is outranged by fungal either way. Only other long range ground unit Protoss has is the disruptor which is a play that I'm pretty sure doesn't even qualify as a Hail Mary. So Toss goes into air where they're disadvantaged against Zerg.
Does anyone remember what the reasoning behind the Feedback nerf was? Was it because of Medivacs or was it due to Infestors? I know it had nothing to do with Ghosts.
Just saying, it might be worthwhile to undo that nerf if Infestors are still a problem. The buffs Terran is getting in TvP might offset the impact that Feedback on Medivacs has, which to be honest is not THAT big of an issue in the first place IMO. Medivacs only die to Feedback if they have like 70% energy in the first place.
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I feel kind of bad for protoss. That zealot change is crazy. Them not needing Zerg late game in any way is surprising.
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Northern Ireland25190 Posts
On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote:
Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended. As if that makes up for the fact that the strongest part of the game for Protoss gets hit hard.
Assuming the majority of changes go through yeah I mean, not looking forward to it. Really high level PvT I thought was largely ok, not perfect but really not that bad, certainly not close to proportion to the ‘protossed’ any time a Protoss player wins a game.
PvZ already seems to be shifting, or at least the worst of the Immortal allins is being better dealt with than a few months ago. I worry that nerfing stuff that’s being figured out, or at least nowhere near as bad as it was is going to really tip the scales too far and Zerg will end up crushing that matchup for a bit.
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Warp Prism nerf in conjunction with charge nerf is weird. Isn't there a correlation between Warp in and strength of Gateway units?
I mean I understand that Blizz is worried since there are almost as many Protoss in the GSL ro 16 as there are Terrans and in contrast to WCS Summer, the last GSL finals, even though won by Zerg aswell, weren't even a ZvZ; steps should be taken to prevent Protoss from becoming a viable race on the highest level.
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On July 17 2019 04:32 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 04:28 Elentos wrote:On July 17 2019 04:21 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote:
Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended. That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem. It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored. Scaling with armor upgrades is gonna be less impactful than the flat damage nerf. The ITs will still shred interceptors and void rays to bits since there's no base armor on them, leaving the cleanup to corruptors. There's also the problem that there's no real counter play to mass infestor anymore. Feedback doesn't kill them and is outranged by fungal either way. Only other long range ground unit Protoss has is the disruptor which is a play that I'm pretty sure doesn't even qualify as a Hail Mary. So Toss goes into air where they're disadvantaged against Zerg. Does anyone remember what the reasoning behind the Feedback nerf was? Was it because of Medivacs or was it due to Infestors? I know it had nothing to do with Ghosts. Just saying, it might be worthwhile to undo that nerf if Infestors are still a problem. The buffs Terran is getting in TvP might offset the impact that Feedback on Medivacs has, which to be honest is THAT big of an issue in the first place IMO. Medivacs only die to Feedback if they have like 70% energy in the first place.
https://starcraft2.com/en-us/news/22372713
When the Ghost’s Snipe ability was changed to Steady Shot, the Ghost lost the ability to instantly kill a High Templar, but Templars remained very lethal to Ghosts. This change should move this relationship to focus more on energy denial/casting rather than outright lethality. Reducing Feedback’s damage also means that Medivacs will also no longer be instantly destroyed, which promotes more multipronged play in late-game scenarios. Against Zerg, this makes Vipers slightly less fragile, which should allow Zerg a few more chances to try and pull apart a Protoss player’s late-game armies.
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Helloooooo! Wake up! PvZ is zerg favoured! Stop this already, it's not funny. "Nydus is abused left and right - lets buff dropalords logic" does not apply here. Like, these changes are completely unreasonable (to put it politely).
Zerg is FINE in PvZ. Do you copy?
You want to make changes? move nydus to hive.
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On July 17 2019 04:36 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 04:32 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 17 2019 04:28 Elentos wrote:On July 17 2019 04:21 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 17 2019 04:19 Elentos wrote:
Zerg players are just laughing to themselves in a corner here honestly. Worries about the state of TvP have undermined Protoss well enough that the only thing they're willing to do for PvZ is a 2 second change to interceptor build time and to make infestors work as intended. That bugfix is actually pretty big, it would explain why Infested Terrans shred Carriers so badly. If that gets adjusted then it could add up to a pretty significant nerf to the Infestor's biggest problem. It might still need tweaking but it does help the area of PvZ that is very Zerg favored. Scaling with armor upgrades is gonna be less impactful than the flat damage nerf. The ITs will still shred interceptors and void rays to bits since there's no base armor on them, leaving the cleanup to corruptors. There's also the problem that there's no real counter play to mass infestor anymore. Feedback doesn't kill them and is outranged by fungal either way. Only other long range ground unit Protoss has is the disruptor which is a play that I'm pretty sure doesn't even qualify as a Hail Mary. So Toss goes into air where they're disadvantaged against Zerg. Does anyone remember what the reasoning behind the Feedback nerf was? Was it because of Medivacs or was it due to Infestors? I know it had nothing to do with Ghosts. Just saying, it might be worthwhile to undo that nerf if Infestors are still a problem. The buffs Terran is getting in TvP might offset the impact that Feedback on Medivacs has, which to be honest is THAT big of an issue in the first place IMO. Medivacs only die to Feedback if they have like 70% energy in the first place. https://starcraft2.com/en-us/news/22372713Show nested quote +When the Ghost’s Snipe ability was changed to Steady Shot, the Ghost lost the ability to instantly kill a High Templar, but Templars remained very lethal to Ghosts. This change should move this relationship to focus more on energy denial/casting rather than outright lethality. Reducing Feedback’s damage also means that Medivacs will also no longer be instantly destroyed, which promotes more multipronged play in late-game scenarios. Against Zerg, this makes Vipers slightly less fragile, which should allow Zerg a few more chances to try and pull apart a Protoss player’s late-game armies.
I see. Well. Considering we still don't see Snipe used at all vs Templar (it's still really just EMP) and considering Ghosts are getting a buff that will improve them vs Templar, and considering Infestors are a problem, I'd be in favor of testing what it would look like if that nerf was reverted.
I'd also like to see general nerfs to Infested Terrans too, but buffing Feedback might also be a logical direction to go in, that's all gonna depend on what the Terran buffs do to the TvP match up.
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Some of the changes are good and this will definitely be good for PvT but PvZ is going to be even more of a shitshow than it already is. I understand the infestor is a hard unit to balance but the fact is it absolutely destroys any chance of Protoss winning in the late game.
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EPT
