|
On July 22 2019 02:24 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 23:39 deacon.frost wrote:On July 21 2019 18:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 14:57 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
[quote]
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks). There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all. Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS. A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had) Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear) Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either. If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings. There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point  ) So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio no thanks lol
haha. this is why we wont have a balanced game ever. When people keep looking at units in a vacuum.
broodwar is the pinnacle of balance and, admittedly, a fluke of cosmic proportions. But its still the gold standard of balance.
|
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On July 22 2019 02:24 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 23:39 deacon.frost wrote:On July 21 2019 18:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 14:57 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
[quote]
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks). There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all. Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS. A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had) Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear) Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either. If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings. There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point ) So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio no thanks lol
Now you have more ways how to counter these "broken" tanks though  We won't know until we test it. Also we have plenty of free units units in the game now so turning of the smartfire would be a big nerf in TvZ. Honestly I would be more worried about TvP considering the baiting units.
The current issue of tank strength is basically the same for the whole game. They can't be any more powerful with the smartfire. And while I don't like the buff(I am a strong a-mover) I must admit that a-moving through tanks isn't what should be happening either.
In the end it's all about whether we want the tanks to zone out ALL the ground units(at least on the lower and same-ish tech tier) or whether we want them to be useful only in certain situations/MU. I say they should be zoning and zoning hard.
(my 2nd step would be removing liberator as fuck flying siege tank)
|
Smart fire isn't built in, plenty of units with projectile attacks already overkill (stalkers for example). It should be possible to add something to try that with tanks.
|
After thinking about it a long time, I actually really like the zealot change.
The ghost change will probably push more P into disruptors.
Not sure yet if they're going to be able to fix lategame ZvP, but this is all a step in the right direction.
|
Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!?
|
On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote:
Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
Nerfing infested terrans because they kill carriers is like nerfing tempests because they kill brood lords. Or banelings because they kill marines. I mean, they are there to prevent mass air, there's no reason they should not shred air units...
|
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On July 22 2019 15:03 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote:
Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P. Nerfing infested terrans because they kill carriers is like nerfing tempests because they kill brood lords. Or banelings because they kill marines. I mean, they are there to prevent mass air, there's no reason they should not shred air units...
That's nice answer but the question/suggestion was - can we get a better lategame composition that's not a Golden Armada? From the WoL times the super endgame composition has been the Golden Armada. While keeping IT to shred it is fine - then what is the super endgame composition? What else? You can't just give a race super hardcounter of the strongest unit composition and ignore the fact it should be the strongest composition 
|
On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote:
Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!?
blizzard has consistently doubled down on air being the ultimate army, and it sucks. it's bad design. air units follow different rules and slow down the game when they're the main army.
what ive wanted for quite some time is a completely separate air unit supply that would be limited to something like 30-50, but it's a radical idea and probably won't happen ever unless we get a SC3
|
On July 22 2019 11:20 ThunderJunk wrote:
After thinking about it a long time, I actually really like the zealot change.
The ghost change will probably push more P into disruptors.
Not sure yet if they're going to be able to fix lategame ZvP, but this is all a step in the right direction.
Libs destroy disruptors, it will just be more tempest ht vs ghost libs vikings. There is nothing else protoss can make that trades well against well balance ghost/lib/viking composition and in some mobile mmm squads and its deadly..
Obviously protoss can just go mid/late game army (archon/ht/colosus/immortal with gateway army support) and try to take the fight to terran, which wouldnt let terran easily get his dream composition.
|
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On July 23 2019 00:01 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote:
Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!? blizzard has consistently doubled down on air being the ultimate army, and it sucks. it's bad design. air units follow different rules and slow down the game when they're the main army. what ive wanted for quite some time is a completely separate air unit supply that would be limited to something like 30-50, but it's a radical idea and probably won't happen ever unless we get a SC3
The game is IMO too fast to have 2 supply to follow.
The issue is they moved so many important units into the air. While I can see why/where the BL comes from - tempest & liberator was added later when we know how bad lategame air army is and these didn't make the things right.
Also it's quite funny, wasn't liberator firstly announced as the anti-muta gun? And again it's about mutalisk spores, thors, phoenixes, so many patches about mutalisks for all races
|
On July 22 2019 02:38 GrandSmurf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 02:24 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 23:39 deacon.frost wrote:On July 21 2019 18:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 14:57 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:
[quote]
Bitch please:
1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army
2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch
3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks). There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all. Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS. A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had) Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear) Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either. If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings. There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point ) So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio no thanks lol haha. this is why we wont have a balanced game ever. When people keep looking at units in a vacuum. broodwar is the pinnacle of balance and, admittedly, a fluke of cosmic proportions. But its still the gold standard of balance.
Don't forget to credit the great maps that came out in broodwar. Nobody would consider BW to be "gold standard of balance" if we only played on the maps that came with the game.
|
Northern Ireland23758 Posts
On July 23 2019 00:01 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote:
Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!? blizzard has consistently doubled down on air being the ultimate army, and it sucks. it's bad design. air units follow different rules and slow down the game when they're the main army. what ive wanted for quite some time is a completely separate air unit supply that would be limited to something like 30-50, but it's a radical idea and probably won't happen ever unless we get a SC3
Radical but I quite like it myself.
Air harassment options are some of my favourite units in the game, giant air balls are one of my least favourite, especially with capital ships. Has been silly in the past with muta remaxes, or phoenix wars
You could make capital ships even stronger too, it’d be cool to have a few Carriers be really strong for example, but not snowball hugely.
As it stands, provided you can get the setup, 2 BCs or Carriers are better than one, 3 better than 2 etc etc.
Yeah it might be arbitrary to add an air supply cap, but ultimately if a few other things were tweaked to bring things back more to the ground I’d prefer it, I’m sure I’m not alone in disliking all three races’ lategames when they all take to the skies.
Interactions are more interesting on terra firma, the map architecture counts, positioning around that counts. Units don’t clump up and be quite visually confusing (to me anyway), etc.
It might mess with TvT quite a bit in terms of Viking wars for supremacy, but on the other hand that might be a good thing. Could be interesting that the viking spotting advantage is less snowbally and down to more factors than simply building more vikings
|
Northern Ireland23758 Posts
On July 23 2019 06:26 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 02:38 GrandSmurf wrote:On July 22 2019 02:24 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 23:39 deacon.frost wrote:On July 21 2019 18:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 14:57 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks). There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all. Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS. A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had) Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear) Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either. If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings. There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point ) So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio no thanks lol haha. this is why we wont have a balanced game ever. When people keep looking at units in a vacuum. broodwar is the pinnacle of balance and, admittedly, a fluke of cosmic proportions. But its still the gold standard of balance. Don't forget to credit the great maps that came out in broodwar. Nobody would consider BW to be "gold standard of balance" if we only played on the maps that came with the game.
Brood War has had periods of imbalance in matchups at the competitive level that far exceed anything we’ve ever really seen in SC2
Different era, Blizzard weren’t actively patching the game itself for balance, and people were a bit more patient, probably as unlike today complaining doesn’t lead to things being patched out.
SC2 has been pretty well balanced for its run so far, in my opinion miraculously so considering how many mechanics I consider extremely wonky exist in the game.
|
On July 23 2019 06:26 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2019 02:38 GrandSmurf wrote:On July 22 2019 02:24 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 23:39 deacon.frost wrote:On July 21 2019 18:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 14:57 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:
[quote]
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks). There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all. Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS. A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had) Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear) Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either. If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings. There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point ) So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio no thanks lol haha. this is why we wont have a balanced game ever. When people keep looking at units in a vacuum. broodwar is the pinnacle of balance and, admittedly, a fluke of cosmic proportions. But its still the gold standard of balance. Don't forget to credit the great maps that came out in broodwar. Nobody would consider BW to be "gold standard of balance" if we only played on the maps that came with the game.
yes, fair enough.
|
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On July 23 2019 08:25 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2019 00:01 brickrd wrote:On July 22 2019 13:30 ThunderJunk wrote:
Okay, this is going out on a huge limb, and asking, "Does it really need to be Golden Armada every lategame?" Anyone, please, give me something other to look forward to as a Master's P.
I'll keep it to phoenixes, tempests and oracles mixed in. But do I really need to inevitably transition to carriers? Could I keep it on a deathball that doesn't get better with Carriers!? Please!? blizzard has consistently doubled down on air being the ultimate army, and it sucks. it's bad design. air units follow different rules and slow down the game when they're the main army. what ive wanted for quite some time is a completely separate air unit supply that would be limited to something like 30-50, but it's a radical idea and probably won't happen ever unless we get a SC3 Radical but I quite like it myself. Air harassment options are some of my favourite units in the game, giant air balls are one of my least favourite, especially with capital ships. Has been silly in the past with muta remaxes, or phoenix wars You could make capital ships even stronger too, it’d be cool to have a few Carriers be really strong for example, but not snowball hugely. As it stands, provided you can get the setup, 2 BCs or Carriers are better than one, 3 better than 2 etc etc. Yeah it might be arbitrary to add an air supply cap, but ultimately if a few other things were tweaked to bring things back more to the ground I’d prefer it, I’m sure I’m not alone in disliking all three races’ lategames when they all take to the skies. Interactions are more interesting on terra firma, the map architecture counts, positioning around that counts. Units don’t clump up and be quite visually confusing (to me anyway), etc. It might mess with TvT quite a bit in terms of Viking wars for supremacy, but on the other hand that might be a good thing. Could be interesting that the viking spotting advantage is less snowbally and down to more factors than simply building more vikings
Carriers will snowball always - interceptors. Similarly swarm hosts, brood lords, infestors vs air. Generally any unit which DPS is based on how many units it produces to do the damage. You would have to change how the Carrier works, that's the reason why Blizzard removed the catapult. To lower the snowballing issue you can lower the interceptor count and give some weapons to the capital ship itself and I don't know how that would be received considering the rage about removing carrier. On the other hand I always thought that it should have some guns because once it loses interceptors it's useless and it's not like there's no room there Maybe limit interceptors to 4 and add cannons giving the rest of the DPS working the same way as BCs(shooting while moving)
Edit> technically it's not about the created units but about the number of attacks and how well they scale up. It's just best seen at units which generate units(IMO). BCs will get out of hand quite fast too in case you want to defend them via ground units.
|
I really don't envy Blizzard the position they are in. On one hand, the game can probably be band-aided into a good spot with constant minor tweaks. On the other hand Legacy of the Void will never feel as good to play as it could, as long as two things remain unchanged:
1) lategame air armies: air units should be viable only as support for the ground forces, and not as a core composition. Either that. or every race should have a viable counter to mass air on the ground, since mass air standoffs are the most boring thing to watch and play in SC2. As it stands, only Zerg has that in form of infested terrans, which is really bad for the health of the game, since they are free units. As long as the power of air compositions is unchanged, the game will not be played to its fullest entertaining potential, because huge portions of early and midgame that we had in HotS are skipped, since everyone is rushing towards the inevitable air transition. Right now, broodlords are out by 10th minute mark, which is insane and doesn't allow the game to actually develop into a fast-paced entertainment that it should be. This brings us to the 2nd point:
2) starting economy: at the start of LotV, Blizzard changed starting worker count from 6 to 12 and gave main buildings 4 more supply generation. This was to speed up the build-up phase of the game. However, without compensating tweaks to infrastructure and upgrades, this change actually gave us more bad things than good ones. With the starting economy being buffed, resources start accumulating much faster, which obviously benefits the race that can actually spend those resources. Terran is limited by nature of production buildings requiring addons, Zerg is limited by the amount of larva produced before the queens are out, and the Protoss is not really limited by anything. On top of that, Protoss has chronoboost online from the start of the game, and while larva injects and mules were nerfed, chrono was actually buffed. So now we, even in the early game, have a bit of a Protoss advantage, since they are better equipped to spend the additional resources (but that is not relevant yet). The 2nd thing that happened was that they made bases mine out faster to promote expanding instead of turtling. This, however, forces the players to expand like crazy, before they even have the time to finish up their production. Currently in some games, the Zergs easily have 5-6 bases by the 10th minute mark, which obviously results in extra income. So now, both players have comfortably expanded to stabilize their income and can finally start investing more resources into their armies. But since the economy explosion gives you so much more resources, both players can go into the composition they want, which is of course the most efficient one: air.
However, if Blizzard reverts the economy changes, they will again have to balance and fine-tune the game more, since the new units added in LotV are balanced around LotV economy. Zerg will have a hard time dealing with early on, and Protoss might just straight up be underpowered, since they are the race that benefited the most from the economy changes. In my point of view, this is a hard choice, because either reverting the economy changes or nerfing air/buffing its ground counters will require a lot of work for the balance team. However, I am optimistic to actually see one of these two changes implemented in the game, maybe not in 2019, but I'm sure something will be done before the end of next year.
|
|
|
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On July 24 2019 01:54 K5 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I really don't envy Blizzard the position they are in. On one hand, the game can probably be band-aided into a good spot with constant minor tweaks. On the other hand Legacy of the Void will never feel as good to play as it could, as long as two things remain unchanged:
1) lategame air armies: air units should be viable only as support for the ground forces, and not as a core composition. Either that. or every race should have a viable counter to mass air on the ground, since mass air standoffs are the most boring thing to watch and play in SC2. As it stands, only Zerg has that in form of infested terrans, which is really bad for the health of the game, since they are free units. As long as the power of air compositions is unchanged, the game will not be played to its fullest entertaining potential, because huge portions of early and midgame that we had in HotS are skipped, since everyone is rushing towards the inevitable air transition. Right now, broodlords are out by 10th minute mark, which is insane and doesn't allow the game to actually develop into a fast-paced entertainment that it should be. This brings us to the 2nd point:
2) starting economy: at the start of LotV, Blizzard changed starting worker count from 6 to 12 and gave main buildings 4 more supply generation. This was to speed up the build-up phase of the game. However, without compensating tweaks to infrastructure and upgrades, this change actually gave us more bad things than good ones. With the starting economy being buffed, resources start accumulating much faster, which obviously benefits the race that can actually spend those resources. Terran is limited by nature of production buildings requiring addons, Zerg is limited by the amount of larva produced before the queens are out, and the Protoss is not really limited by anything. On top of that, Protoss has chronoboost online from the start of the game, and while larva injects and mules were nerfed, chrono was actually buffed. So now we, even in the early game, have a bit of a Protoss advantage, since they are better equipped to spend the additional resources (but that is not relevant yet). The 2nd thing that happened was that they made bases mine out faster to promote expanding instead of turtling. This, however, forces the players to expand like crazy, before they even have the time to finish up their production. Currently in some games, the Zergs easily have 5-6 bases by the 10th minute mark, which obviously results in extra income. So now, both players have comfortably expanded to stabilize their income and can finally start investing more resources into their armies. But since the economy explosion gives you so much more resources, both players can go into the composition they want, which is of course the most efficient one: air.
However, if Blizzard reverts the economy changes, they will again have to balance and fine-tune the game more, since the new units added in LotV are balanced around LotV economy. Zerg will have a hard time dealing with early on, and Protoss might just straight up be underpowered, since they are the race that benefited the most from the economy changes. In my point of view, this is a hard choice, because either reverting the economy changes or nerfing air/buffing its ground counters will require a lot of work for the balance team. However, I am optimistic to actually see one of these two changes implemented in the game, maybe not in 2019, but I'm sure something will be done before the end of next year.
They can try lower the workers for 9 start. They can try to change the capital ships, but it would require some radical changes. I can imagine flag ships at much higher supply with higher stats. But that requires rebalancing way too much for the current Blizzard IMO
|
On July 24 2019 05:25 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2019 01:54 K5 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I really don't envy Blizzard the position they are in. On one hand, the game can probably be band-aided into a good spot with constant minor tweaks. On the other hand Legacy of the Void will never feel as good to play as it could, as long as two things remain unchanged:
1) lategame air armies: air units should be viable only as support for the ground forces, and not as a core composition. Either that. or every race should have a viable counter to mass air on the ground, since mass air standoffs are the most boring thing to watch and play in SC2. As it stands, only Zerg has that in form of infested terrans, which is really bad for the health of the game, since they are free units. As long as the power of air compositions is unchanged, the game will not be played to its fullest entertaining potential, because huge portions of early and midgame that we had in HotS are skipped, since everyone is rushing towards the inevitable air transition. Right now, broodlords are out by 10th minute mark, which is insane and doesn't allow the game to actually develop into a fast-paced entertainment that it should be. This brings us to the 2nd point:
2) starting economy: at the start of LotV, Blizzard changed starting worker count from 6 to 12 and gave main buildings 4 more supply generation. This was to speed up the build-up phase of the game. However, without compensating tweaks to infrastructure and upgrades, this change actually gave us more bad things than good ones. With the starting economy being buffed, resources start accumulating much faster, which obviously benefits the race that can actually spend those resources. Terran is limited by nature of production buildings requiring addons, Zerg is limited by the amount of larva produced before the queens are out, and the Protoss is not really limited by anything. On top of that, Protoss has chronoboost online from the start of the game, and while larva injects and mules were nerfed, chrono was actually buffed. So now we, even in the early game, have a bit of a Protoss advantage, since they are better equipped to spend the additional resources (but that is not relevant yet). The 2nd thing that happened was that they made bases mine out faster to promote expanding instead of turtling. This, however, forces the players to expand like crazy, before they even have the time to finish up their production. Currently in some games, the Zergs easily have 5-6 bases by the 10th minute mark, which obviously results in extra income. So now, both players have comfortably expanded to stabilize their income and can finally start investing more resources into their armies. But since the economy explosion gives you so much more resources, both players can go into the composition they want, which is of course the most efficient one: air.
However, if Blizzard reverts the economy changes, they will again have to balance and fine-tune the game more, since the new units added in LotV are balanced around LotV economy. Zerg will have a hard time dealing with early on, and Protoss might just straight up be underpowered, since they are the race that benefited the most from the economy changes. In my point of view, this is a hard choice, because either reverting the economy changes or nerfing air/buffing its ground counters will require a lot of work for the balance team. However, I am optimistic to actually see one of these two changes implemented in the game, maybe not in 2019, but I'm sure something will be done before the end of next year. They can try lower the workers for 9 start. They can try to change the capital ships, but it would require some radical changes. I can imagine flag ships at much higher supply with higher stats. But that requires rebalancing way too much for the current Blizzard IMO
Yeah, but I think the benefits would be huge, because game would be in much better state and would also feel better to play and to watch. Heightening the air unit supply could definitely be a step in the right direction to start things off, but we'll see if Blizzard is interested in that.
|
On July 17 2019 04:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Removed Changes:
Warp Prisms no longer start with the Warp Conduit passive ability and warp-ins will take 11 seconds when not near a Warp Gate or Nexus, up from 4.
The Gravitic Drive upgrade now has the added functionality of granting Warp Prisms the Warp Conduit passive ability, reducing warp-in time from 11 to 4.
Though this change is a significant redesign, it does a good job at addressing multiple issues in one condensed stroke. Some of these issues include the strength and variety of Protoss all-ins in PvZ, the harassment strength of Warp Prisms, and the overall power level of Protoss. In its stead, we’d like to make the following additions with Proposal #2:
Added Changes:
Warp Prism cost increased from 200 to 250 minerals.
The Warp Prism is perceived as a powerful unit with a lot of utility, providing both harassment and all-in opportunities. We believe this cost increase will more accurately reflect the unit’s power level.
At least speaking from the PvZ matchup I'm glad they rolled back (most of) the prism nerfs. I feel PvZ is in a very interesting place lately, with nydus/prism backstabs, armies being split up and skirmishing all over the map. It's a way more interesting metagame than turtling into deathballs/broodlords/carriers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
