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On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad.
You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
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Well, I don't know if he still should be able to push through a choke with inhibor zones.
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The ghost upgrade is good but it probably wont be used much
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On July 20 2019 12:21 scoo2r wrote:
The ghost upgrade is good but it probably wont be used much
yeah my concern is that its hard to afford even 150 gas as terran in mid or late game tvp thats why often you see terran have to make realy hard choices, like lib range or +2 +2 upgrades its just hard to afford both, maybe with the faster stim though we will see new builds that are more economical out of terran, or at least less crazy runaway growth from toss and terran will actualy have this kind of money mid game.
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On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't.
Bitch please:
1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army
2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch
3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
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Translation: Protoss removed from game
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On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
lets get this straight reason why fantasy lost is because he built tanks vs archon/zealot/imortal based army. If he had 5ghost instead of tanks, he would have wiped the that army out without losing single marine.
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On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all
Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead.
The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
1 - yeah, that's the point of archons, to soak the shots of the tanks which won't kill them while zealots would die instantly
2 - doesn't matter if the only thing reliably shooting are some tanks and not all the tanks and your bio is scared away with storm
3 - doesn't affect storm dps
While that looks bad it's not a balance issue, tanks aren't supposed to wipe out every ground unit Terrans point them at, especially if we're talking about same or better tier than tanks are.
If you want zealots to be the meatshield they need to buff their suvivability, they are actually quite fragile for a meatshield. At the same time their DPS is astonishing for a meatshield unit, so, uhm 
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On July 19 2019 02:51 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2019 02:41 FFW_Rude wrote:On July 17 2019 05:57 -KG- wrote:
I really don't get it. We had an overweight of P in RO8 in the GSL super tournament but in the bigger picture P hasn't won sh*t of the premier tournaments in both 2018 and 2019. And yet, all Blizz can focus on is rather big nerfs to P and buffs to the other races.
There was a game earlier today on Stats' stream that displayed just how overpowered and completely un-engageable mass infestors are right now - how can this not be the main issue in terms of balance right now? But but ! Qualifiers ! Yeah apparently that's a thing Now let's see how many video game design expert i can count here... On July 19 2019 02:35 xelnaga_empire wrote:There are 5 Protoss out of 8 players for Korea in the current Blizzcon standings: https://wcs.starcraft2.com/en-us/standings/This is really broken if you ask me. In those standings, there is only 1 Terran (Maru) and 2 Zergs (Dark and Soo). This balance patch can't come fast enough. 13 Protoss 12 Zergs 10 Terrans This is an outrage ! Clearly people like Armani alive or keen are better than Dear or classic or trap .. oh wait Yeah, this is totally about Armani and Keen and not about Inno, TY, Rogue, Solar. Nice strawman.
Inno that's been even beaten by Keen and Creator ?
TY who won the same amount of Championship that Trap ? or Classic that won more?
Rogue that topped his group in GSL ?
Solar that topped his group with two protoss without losing a map ?
Don't get me wrong. I love TY, Rogue and Solar but we are here talking about Classic who's a powerhouse, Trap that is an ex champion on the rise again. herO which is a really good one, Stats i don't need to talk about it or Dear that also won championships in the past.
Sure Trap & Dear can be taken as "low player" but they have the champions mentality and are here since the dawn of time. They are not nobodies.
And btw if we're adding WCS to the discussion then it's even worse it's Zerg dominate WCS circuit. Out of the Ro16 of last WCS protoss was as represented as Terran and by Quarter finals Protoss was the lowest.
And you know what. I don't like Protoss, i don't play protoss but this is overexageration.
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On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy.
Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
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Northern Ireland26785 Posts
On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why??
I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure.
There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself.
I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done.
As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
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On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers
That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
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On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks).
There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all.
Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS.
A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had)
Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
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On July 21 2019 14:57 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks). There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all. Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS. A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had) Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Also, the Zealot absolutely has to be stronger than a marine or zergling as it costs double the minerals and double the supply. People seem to forget this and just act like the Zealot should be equivalent in strength to a marine or zergling.
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Northern Ireland26785 Posts
On July 21 2019 14:57 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks). There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all. Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS. A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had) Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear)
Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either.
If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there
I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
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On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit.
Okay
1 - His Zealots are trailing because he wants the archons to soak the damage from the siege tanks
2- His storms push his bio back so they cant do damage while he moves through
3- Damage inflicted while he went through the slowed area was really low hence why he could push through it
Storm damage and zoning bio back and archons soaking the initial tank fire is why he managed to make it work,it was well executed.
I understand it must be frustrating to watch as a Terran but your bias is clouding your judgement
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 21 2019 18:40 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 14:57 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 01:17 Xamo wrote:
Blizzard seriously I don't get it.
Why do Terran and Zerg receive buffs (bug corrections apart) and Protoss mostly nerfs, when *all* top tournaments this year *and* last year where won by Zerg and Terran players?
Nerfing two units that are used in 90% of the games, the warp prism and the zealot, is absolutely overkill, way too extreme for a mid-season patch.
Just ignore the wining and look at the data from top tournaments and top players.
Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks). There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all. Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS. A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had) Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear) Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either. If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings.
There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point  )
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On July 21 2019 23:39 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 18:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 14:57 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:[quote] Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks). There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all. Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS. A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had) Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear) Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either. If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings. There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point )
I'm not a 100% on that but I believe that smart fire is hard coded into the game's engine therefore cannot be disabled easily.
I agree that buffing tank is not the way to make mech more viable in TvP and would probably just incite terrans to play marine tank even more. Marine + 3 factory tank production is already a common build in current's meta. The synergy of chargelots + immortals vs mech is the reason we still see mostly bio in TvP imo, but I honestly don't know if it's possible to tweak it without disrupting massively PvZ which relies heavily on that composition. Balance is hard.
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On July 21 2019 23:39 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2019 18:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 14:57 BerserkSword wrote:On July 21 2019 06:26 K5 wrote:On July 21 2019 03:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 21 2019 02:42 washikie wrote:On July 20 2019 16:55 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 20 2019 13:26 IshinShishi wrote:On July 20 2019 09:53 Dedraterllaerau wrote:On July 20 2019 01:44 IshinShishi wrote:[quote] Watch this beautiful clip and it will be all you will need to understand. clips.twitch.tvThat's how bad TvP is right now, pretty fucking bad. You clearly have little game understanding so I'll lay it out for you, the tanks are shooting mostly archons doing minimal damage, the bio is being pushed back by storms and get's hit by some very good storms. Also he has 1 upgrade lead on armor vs weap. That is why he could push through that choke and win the fight. Was beautiful execute if you understand protoss, looks OP if you don't. Bitch please: 1 - All of his zealots were trailing behind his army 2- He went through a corridor into a wide arch 3- With a slow debuff on every unit. I'm sorry but I don't feel that fight it lost for Fantasy due to bad balance at all Dear is up 15 army supply, Dear has 5 archons and 3 immortals plus storms against small-medium amount of bio and 5 tanks (and 2 libs). Dear executed that attack perfectly having the archons soak all the tank hits and when the archons were dead the zealots swoop in, also Fanta had 2 tanks that were sieged too far away from the fight and could only shoot when all the other tanks were already dead. The problem is the storm, with storm and those armies the protoss is supposed to win if he microes, without storm terran wins easy. Im not going to dispute that fantasy is better than dear or vice versa, but I think this fight does showcase some of the things that make terran feel awful against protoss outside of 2 base allin timings. Siege units should not be so week to toss that they can casualy walts up to an entrenched position with a similar tech and army supply and just wipe the floor with them. Siege units have a ton of disadvantages compared to toss units, they have to give up thier mobility to be effective, they either can only shoot in a restricted area (libs) or are extremely slow (tanks), they have long build times, they cant be warped in anywhere on the map and have to walk or take a medivac to where they are going they cant be recalled if out of position despite their extremely low mobility. yet for some reason toss units that don't have any of these drawbacks can seemingly walts up to a sieged up army and run it over. why? why do siege units need the drawback of immobility if their power level does not justify it? in the other match ups where things are less out of whack terran and zerg have to respect the strength of sieged units and the game has not fallen apart, we don't see turtle mech dominating the scene. so why is it that toss should be able to walk directly into sieged up armies through a choke that gives them a slow debuff and still easily roll the fight with very little micro? Maybe if siege tanks could move around the map in siege mode like colosi the way that toss can engage them would be justified but they cant, and in the other matchup it makes sense that they cant but in tvp it doesn't. why?? I can’t say I like how easily tank lines are broken by P, feels iffy for sure. There isn’t really a huge amount of micro in some of these engagements, they’re too fast to really do all that much, plus charge procs by itself. I’d prefer some retooling so there’s more micro for the Toss to engage properly with and benefit with, but make that more critical in such engagements and make them less 1A. Not sure how that’d be done. As it is Protoss just has units that are tank murderers That's because Protoss is the only race that has a light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed in every game. It is ridiculous that it almost takes the same amount of shots for a sieged tank to kill a zealot and an ultralisk (don't even get me started on archons). Yes, hellbats are high HP light units too, but you don't see them massed in LotV (A game from HotS comes to mind, TaeJa vs ForGG on Whirlwind, where both players went mech, TaeJa lost the engagement in the middle of the map and remaxed on 30+ hellbats and just rolled over ForGG's 20 tanks). There is nothing ridiculous about the zealot at all. Without the prowess of the zealot, protoss armies would evaporate in the face of terran's superior range and DPS. A critical mass of siege tanks shouldnt have the capability of wiping out all protoss ground compositions. That is just idiotic, especially since sky terran is superior to sky protoss (at least in brood war when terran went 200/200 mech, protoss carriers + arbiters were stronger than what terran air had) Youre acting like Protoss cannot have something unique (light ground unit with 100+ HP that is massed). That is like saying Terran shouldnt have the unique characteristic of having a mineral only, massable most versatile unit in the game (marine in case it wasnt clear) Yeah, Protoss are also slow moving around, and don’t have force of numbers, so they can’t break tank lines with speed and big flanks a la Zerg, nor do they have their own tanks to play with either. If tanks are much better than they currently are there’s not a huge amount of engagement options there I’d still like to see tanks and mech being more viable in the long run, but quite a few changes would be needed for that to happen. Straight up better tanks I don’t even think you get more mech, you’ll get marine/tank or bio/tank and big brutal timings. There's actually an easy change. Buff tanks, turn off smart fire (and maybe lower supply). There! Now you can micro against tank fire as if the tanks are positioned badly all of them will fire to kill that one little zergling. Those who just a-move will lose. Those who cannot control tanks will lose. Everybody will be happy. (well, not really, but you get the point )
So youre suggesting a return to the broken BW tanks? except now Terran would have both broken tanks and extremely powerful bio
no thanks lol
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EPT
