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On July 17 2019 05:57 -KG- wrote:
I really don't get it. We had an overweight of P in RO8 in the GSL super tournament but in the bigger picture P hasn't won sh*t of the premier tournaments in both 2018 and 2019. And yet, all Blizz can focus on is rather big nerfs to P and buffs to the other races.
There was a game earlier today on Stats' stream that displayed just how overpowered and completely un-engageable mass infestors are right now - how can this not be the main issue in terms of balance right now?
The Stats game really showed how bad it was. Stats was on skytoss comp while limiting the zerg bases and ended up on a 20k bank. Played the cleanest play against it that I've seen, minimising losses as much as possible. Still lost.
That game highlighted the problem with how powerful infested terrans are.
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On July 17 2019 05:43 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 05:28 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update. in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game 
Not even sure where to begin with this. Hero losing 3 WP to turrets actually displays an appropriate response to warp prism harass lol. How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army? Other races don't habve the benefit of scans lol. I mean hell when I play T it happens to me all the time. Really T isnt even in this equation right now or shouldn't be. We are talking about how these nerfs make PvZ even more unwinnable. This guy sounds like according to him T should never lose a game! 
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So they pretty much kept the entire first package of changes, except for WP, meaning that testing two different sets of changes is not going to happen after all.
Most of the changes they kept from set #1 are great though, although I'm very surprised they kept the stim change.
The new WP changes (nerf range, increase cost) seem very reasonable and not like that bombshell the first change was.
I guess the new Ghost upgrade is supposed to counter mass Infestor, but I have no idea what's going to counter them for Protoss. Yeah, so I agree with everybody else that Protoss are getting slaughtered in here, and Zerg imba lategame is untouched. Weird decision by blizzard.
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On July 17 2019 06:09 sneakyfox wrote:
So they pretty much kept the entire first package of changes, except for WP, meaning that testing two different sets of changes is not going to happen after all.
Most of the changes they kept from set #1 are great though, although I'm very surprised they kept the stim change.
The new WP changes (nerf range, increase cost) seem very reasonable and not like that bombshell the first change was.
I guess the new Ghost upgrade is supposed to counter mass Infestor, but I have no idea what's going to counter them for Protoss. Yeah, so I agree with everybody else that Protoss are getting slaughtered in here, and Zerg imba lategame is untouched. Weird decision by blizzard.
Stop saying late game Zerg is untouched, that isn't true. Appropriately balanced? That's another story, but they DID in fact touch it.
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On July 17 2019 04:02 Vindicare605 wrote:
Zealot Charge additional impact damage decreased from 8 to 0. After researching Charge, Zealot will still retain the ability to always hit a fleeting target at least once.
Glad they're at least looking at the fact that zealots pretty much destroy roaches
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On July 17 2019 06:06 Z3nith wrote:
The Stats game really showed how bad it was. Stats was on skytoss comp while limiting the zerg bases and ended up on a 20k bank. Played the cleanest play against it that I've seen, minimising losses as much as possible. Still lost.
That game highlighted the problem with how powerful infested terrans are.
Even those brilliant disruptor moves and some good hits on those infestors didn't make a difference - Stats actually played great and really tried everything against it. Meanwhile the Z was just sitting back on no bases and 20 minerals and gas not giving a shit. Ridiculous :D
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On July 17 2019 06:12 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 06:09 sneakyfox wrote:
So they pretty much kept the entire first package of changes, except for WP, meaning that testing two different sets of changes is not going to happen after all.
Most of the changes they kept from set #1 are great though, although I'm very surprised they kept the stim change.
The new WP changes (nerf range, increase cost) seem very reasonable and not like that bombshell the first change was.
I guess the new Ghost upgrade is supposed to counter mass Infestor, but I have no idea what's going to counter them for Protoss. Yeah, so I agree with everybody else that Protoss are getting slaughtered in here, and Zerg imba lategame is untouched. Weird decision by blizzard. Stop saying late game Zerg is untouched, that isn't true. Appropriately balanced? That's another story, but they DID in fact touch it.
Technically you're right of course, but it's almost semantics. Fixing the infestor bug is such a small change. And does not touch neural at all. Virtually unchanged.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 17 2019 04:50 Charoisaur wrote:
I don't understand why they want to nerf Protoss so hard. They overperformed in 2 tournaments this year but now it seems like the other races have already adapted with Dark winning GSL and WCS being a ZvZ finals.
If this goes through Protoss will be very weak at the Pro level.
1) They didn't put that in the game yet, it's in the works
2) They're touching a thing that should have been discussed a long time ago. The WP insta warp in is a bad thing design wise, pick up range is ridiculous. But I believe this won't get through and they leave this for the big Blizzard patch
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Northern Ireland26790 Posts
On July 17 2019 06:09 ImSquanchnHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 05:43 SHODAN wrote:On July 17 2019 05:28 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update. in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game Not even sure where to begin with this. Hero losing 3 WP to turrets actually displays an appropriate response to warp prism harass lol. How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army? Other races don't habve the benefit of scans lol. I mean hell when I play T it happens to me all the time. Really T isnt even in this equation right now or shouldn't be. We are talking about how these nerfs make PvZ even more unwinnable. This guy sounds like according to him T should never lose a game!
If you open with cyclones and don’t lose them they should always be patrolling your main, they’re basically useless in any other capacity. Artosis and NoRegret even highlighted a Maru game where they were joking about his cyclone ended up F2ed and eventually stuck on a watchtower to die, and Maru’s pretty damn good last I checked.
Not going to be a foolproof screen by any means but it’s the best use of cyclones once out of the early game, assuming you’re transitioning to bio rather than going battlemech.
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United States33605 Posts
Yay, it's the Prism change I wanted!
Interestingly enough, they put this exact same change in the balance test server in September of last year, citing the strength of Archon drop builds at the time:
Warp Prisms received a ranged pickup in Legacy of the Void, and for the most part, we enjoy how it’s worked out so far. Top Protoss players are able to show off their micro abilities, and it helps promote multipronged offensive options.
One area we feel could see some improvement on is the ability for Zerg players ward off Warp Prism/Archon openings. Currently, the combined range of the Prism pickup and the Archon is 9, which outranges the Queen’s anti-air attack by 1. We’d like to reduce pickup range by 1 to allow Queens to interact more meaningfully with Warp Prism play.
We believe this change could help open up many different potential Zerg openers, but we’re also mindful of the fact that Protoss players rely heavily on Warp Prism based tactics. Thus, we’ll be keeping an especially close eye on this change.
However, the change was reverted a few weeks later, but the reasoning was rather vague.
After reviewing feedback, we have decided to revert the pick-up range from 5 to 6 as we’d like for all races to feel like they have strong options out of the gate with the new patch.
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On July 17 2019 06:09 ImSquanchnHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 05:43 SHODAN wrote:On July 17 2019 05:28 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update. in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army?
please link me the VOD of a code-S terran losing loaded medivacs to photon cannons (and only photon cannons). please link me the VOD of a code-S purposefully flying loaded medivacs over a protoss army. seems ridiculous? because it doesn't happen
there's your equivalence of herO losing 3 warp prism in a row to nothing but turrets. he could have turned the prism around, but he didn't even bother. if terrans deployed medivacs to that degree of carelessness, the game is pretty much immediately over
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On July 17 2019 05:26 Xain0n wrote:
not sure if increasing the cost of Warp Prism is needed and that charge nerf is dubious at best.
Whiners have been complaining so much that Blizzard now wants to nerf Protoss to the ground...
I think the changes are good, they do a lot to open more strategies and do a lot to dimish the capacity protoss has to deny defenders advantage (IE: Using a prism to spam 15 zealot after a battle or inside a base) without limiting their over all diversity.
I do think these changes will require some counter balancing, specially vs zerg lategame who would still be quite strong and terran mid game all ings. But overall I agree with the changes from a design perspective. Only the stim buff I don't agree, terran is much more fun to play and watch when the openings and early game are varied not when everybody is trying to get the fastest stim timing.
Changes that would be interesting to test IMHO are:
- Blink research: Blink and stalkers are a good part of protoss that are very interesting, they're units that create fun intereactions and are currently hardly opressive. Its also a very important upgrade that helps control the map and stop tank pushes. How it should be buffed would depend if stim is buffed or not. Also maybe even buffing its attack speed a bit (attached to blink ofc) to offset the loss of the DPS on charge.
- Change infestor supply from 2 to 3: I love my spellcasters as anybody else but having lategame armies that are just massed casters is a no go honestly.
I'm not as knowleadgeable for ZvP as TvP but I like the WP/zealot nerf and I like stalkers vs terran and I think that would made more sense as its a high micro/multitask unit that its much more interesting to watch and play against that zealots.
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really disappointed they're reverting the warp prism change - i think it would've been good for gameplay design reasons, and they should've made an effort to balance around it
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On July 17 2019 06:33 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 06:09 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On July 17 2019 05:43 SHODAN wrote:On July 17 2019 05:28 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update. in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game Not even sure where to begin with this. Hero losing 3 WP to turrets actually displays an appropriate response to warp prism harass lol. How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army? Other races don't habve the benefit of scans lol. I mean hell when I play T it happens to me all the time. Really T isnt even in this equation right now or shouldn't be. We are talking about how these nerfs make PvZ even more unwinnable. This guy sounds like according to him T should never lose a game! If you open with cyclones and don’t lose them they should always be patrolling your main, they’re basically useless in any other capacity. Artosis and NoRegret even highlighted a Maru game where they were joking about his cyclone ended up F2ed and eventually stuck on a watchtower to die, and Maru’s pretty damn good last I checked.
nah. T needs the cyclone in order to push across the map vs blink. P can't pick off so many marines if you bring the cyclone along in your main army. 150 / 100 / 3 supply is a big investment and only has a ~33% chance of being in the patrol range of a warp prism on most maps (e.g. on Cyber Forest, there are 3 entry points). imagine asking a top 3 protoss to park an immortal in his main base for the entire game, just in case a roach turns up bring the cyclone with your army = guaranteed damage. leave the cyclone at home = potentially doesn't fire a single shot for the rest of the game. maybe it's a good idea in T3 diamond league to leave a cyclone at home
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On July 17 2019 06:22 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 06:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On July 17 2019 06:09 sneakyfox wrote:
So they pretty much kept the entire first package of changes, except for WP, meaning that testing two different sets of changes is not going to happen after all.
Most of the changes they kept from set #1 are great though, although I'm very surprised they kept the stim change.
The new WP changes (nerf range, increase cost) seem very reasonable and not like that bombshell the first change was.
I guess the new Ghost upgrade is supposed to counter mass Infestor, but I have no idea what's going to counter them for Protoss. Yeah, so I agree with everybody else that Protoss are getting slaughtered in here, and Zerg imba lategame is untouched. Weird decision by blizzard. Stop saying late game Zerg is untouched, that isn't true. Appropriately balanced? That's another story, but they DID in fact touch it. Virtually unchanged.
Much better. :D
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On July 17 2019 06:09 ImSquanchnHere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 05:43 SHODAN wrote:On July 17 2019 05:28 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update. in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game Not even sure where to begin with this. Hero losing 3 WP to turrets actually displays an appropriate response to warp prism harass lol. How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army? Other races don't habve the benefit of scans lol. I mean hell when I play T it happens to me all the time. Really T isnt even in this equation right now or shouldn't be. We are talking about how these nerfs make PvZ even more unwinnable. This guy sounds like according to him T should never lose a game!
This is such a funny thing to say, the whole point is that protoss doesn't need scans. Even IF they could scan, they wouldn't. You know why? A scan costs more than a warp prism, let that sink in for a moment. terran should do all this crazy defense for a unit that is easy to make and cheaper than a scan. Its so cheap its not worth microing properly unless P is allining.
Terrans have to actually scan and properly micro because two full medivacs are worth 10 times the value of a wp. Terran loses the medivacs and its gg, protoss loses the wp and he makes another, and then another and then another......
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Northern Ireland26790 Posts
On July 17 2019 06:36 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 06:09 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On July 17 2019 05:43 SHODAN wrote:On July 17 2019 05:28 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update. in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army? please link me the VOD of a code-S terran losing loaded medivacs to photon cannons (and only photon cannons). please link me the VOD of a code-S purposefully flying loaded medivacs over a protoss army. seems ridiculous? because it doesn't happen there's your equivalence of herO losing 3 warp prism in a row to nothing but turrets. he could have turned the prism around, but he didn't even bother. if terrans deployed medivacs to that degree of carelessness, the game is pretty much immediately over
They’re not equivalent though, herO losing some prisms in that phase of the game is more in line with Zergs losing a bunch of nyduses that get spotted and killed, long as you get one up it can be worth it. You’ve got enough cash and the potential damage is huge, it’s sloppy to lose a few to turrets sure but well, get one in and it can be worth it.
Suiciding hellions is a long Terran staple, shift clicking libs and losing them to spores happens all the time even in Code S.
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Canada8990 Posts
These p change seems more reasonable, wonder how it will go.
As for the infestor, I honestly think should just remove it and balance zerg around the viper, maybe buff spores even, IDK but the units just seems impossible to get right, it ocsilate between useless and match up breaking + it makes for shitty games.
The balance team can do miracle (never thought I see a nicelly balanced raven) but maybe it's time to start in new on this one
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United Kingdom20327 Posts
On July 17 2019 05:22 ImSquanchnHere wrote:
Zergs win every major tournament and they want to nerf toss lol
On July 17 2019 05:32 Penev wrote:
Blizzard is lagging behind events as per usual also I called the ovie speed cost reduction!
yeah yeah I'm sure I wasn't the only one and I'm sure it was bound to happen etc but I still called it damn you suckers (;
On July 17 2019 05:57 -KG- wrote:
I really don't get it. We had an overweight of P in RO8 in the GSL super tournament but in the bigger picture P hasn't won sh*t of the premier tournaments in both 2018 and 2019. And yet, all Blizz can focus on is rather big nerfs to P and buffs to the other races.
There was a game earlier today on Stats' stream that displayed just how overpowered and completely un-engageable mass infestors are right now - how can this not be the main issue in terms of balance right now?
Agree on this, it's kinda silly. We're still looking at changes that are specifically designed to make P winrates in both PvT and PvZ take a dive despite the statistics not agreeing with it - it seems to be driven by whine from part of the community more than actual data.
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On July 17 2019 07:02 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2019 06:36 SHODAN wrote:On July 17 2019 06:09 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On July 17 2019 05:43 SHODAN wrote:On July 17 2019 05:28 ImSquanchnHere wrote:On July 17 2019 05:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
Wow I'm really happy the terran changes are going through that will really be good for the game I think. And makes me happy about how I'm just about to start playing again =P Good timing patch wise.
As for the WP changes, I don't know which change is better I think either is fine as long as it gets nerfed, because it NEEDS to get nerfed in its current state. Personally I liked the previous change better but I also believed that change would have to come with buffs in other areas for protoss to be balanced. This wp change could actually be made today without really effecting the balance too bad (I think) BUT this wp change in conjuction with charge nerf to zealots?
Come on, I hate protoss and even I feel sorry for them, and also sorry for the PvZs I watch in the future if this goes through. I mean Blizz is on the right track chargelots are too powerful it is true but they cannot just nerf them and the WP without buffing something else. Protoss right now have a few overpowered units that keeps them competitive, yes the overpowered units need to be adjusted somehow but if you straight up nerf them without buffing some other area protoss is charred. I thought everyone was exaggerating last update about "patching protoss out of the game" but these changes feels closer to that to me than the previous update. in many cases the only reason protoss win is because of the WP which requires a great deal of skill and apm to use as they do o rly? wanna see some VODs of herO derp-moving warp prism after warp prism into TY's turrets? he loses 3 warp prisms in a row. 4th attempt, the warp prism gets in and herO wins the game. how about Parting haphazardly flying a warp prism full of archons over Special's marines in GSL group A? the former demonstrates a complete lack of respect. the latter demonstrates what is lacking in the decision-making of a code S level protoss. I don't even watch that many pro games nowadays and I can think of several examples. now compare that to Keen's genuinely great medivac harass vs Creator in group F and maybe you'll see where the discrepancy lies. toss players will just need to step up their game How many games do we see Terran players just yolo medivacs into static D or an army? please link me the VOD of a code-S terran losing loaded medivacs to photon cannons (and only photon cannons). please link me the VOD of a code-S purposefully flying loaded medivacs over a protoss army. seems ridiculous? because it doesn't happen there's your equivalence of herO losing 3 warp prism in a row to nothing but turrets. he could have turned the prism around, but he didn't even bother. if terrans deployed medivacs to that degree of carelessness, the game is pretty much immediately over They’re not equivalent though, herO losing some prisms in that phase of the game is more in line with Zergs losing a bunch of nyduses that get spotted and killed, long as you get one up it can be worth it. You’ve got enough cash and the potential damage is huge, it’s sloppy to lose a few to turrets sure but well, get one in and it can be worth it. Suiciding hellions is a long Terran staple, shift clicking libs and losing them to spores happens all the time even in Code S.
Where do this thinking that terran can just suicide units come from? Terran is most likely to dive in for kills because its the race that depends the most on being aggressive and slowing the enemy down but that doesn't means that terran can just throw units while other races (specially P) are so hurt for every single one.
They are very equivalent, losing units hurts every race, a lib cost the same as a oracle and thinking that terran can just throw them is just stupid.
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