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On April 30 2019 22:33 DrunkenSCV wrote:You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about.
Leenock beat Maru at IEM and Inno more than once in Olimoleagues; Ragnarok beat Inno multiple times.
It's hard, of course, but I don't see that as impossible since Maru's TvZ is not as untouchable as it was in 2018(well, MeomaikA).
Before yesterday, Patience lost six bo3 in a row to Maru, who in turn had a huge TvP streak in Code S; if Patience beat both Inno and Maru, I don't see why Leenock and Ragnarok shouldn't have!
If you name, let's say, Armani and DRG, it's a totally different question.
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On April 30 2019 22:42 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:33 DrunkenSCV wrote:On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote:
The answer is yes, instead.
You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about. Leenock beat Maru at IEM and Inno more than once in Olimoleagues; Ragnarok beat Inno multiple times. It's hard, of course, but I don't see that as impossible since Maru's TvZ is not as untouchable as it was in 2018(well, MeomaikA). Before yesterday, Patience lost six bo3 in a row to Maru, who in turn had a huge TvP streak in Code S; if Patience beat both Inno and Maru, I don't see why Leenock and Ragnarok shouldn't have! If you name, let's say, Armani and DRG, it's a totally different question.
Alright, Aligulac finally works. I just wanna say that according to aligulac the chance for Leenock to do what Patience did is less than 2%. No wonders we've never seen anything like that. But if you are protoss... who knows what may happen?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2019 23:20 DrunkenSCV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 22:33 DrunkenSCV wrote:On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote:
The answer is yes, instead.
You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about. Leenock beat Maru at IEM and Inno more than once in Olimoleagues; Ragnarok beat Inno multiple times. It's hard, of course, but I don't see that as impossible since Maru's TvZ is not as untouchable as it was in 2018(well, MeomaikA). Before yesterday, Patience lost six bo3 in a row to Maru, who in turn had a huge TvP streak in Code S; if Patience beat both Inno and Maru, I don't see why Leenock and Ragnarok shouldn't have! If you name, let's say, Armani and DRG, it's a totally different question. Alright, Aligulac finally works. I just wanna say that according to aligulac the chance of winning for Leenock to do what Patience did is less than 2%. No wonders we've never seen anything like that. But if you are protoss... who knows what may happen?
Meh, if Maru didn't do his MeomaikA shit he would have won 2:1, let's just not pretend taht this isn't the case. All he had to do was to play safe standard. I know he cannot do that and that cost him the game. 9 out of 10 games he will win against Patience because Patience is bad. Well, Patience just took his games where he wins and got his revenge 
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On April 30 2019 22:17 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:14 Hvvacha wrote:On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 21:04 DrunkenSCV wrote:On April 30 2019 20:36 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 20:16 DomeGetta wrote:On April 30 2019 18:31 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:42 DrunkenSCV wrote:On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote:
I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied. Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players. Armani is tiers below Patience, who in 2016 won a Premier and did well enough to qualify for BlizzCon. Patience probably felt confidence because he knew his builds would have given him more than a chanche. Not really sure you can call anyone in ro32 code S "tierS" below patience with a straight face lol. If you have ever watched a ro16 selection that is. Possibly a stretch to even say tier. Let's hear what Liquipedia tells us! Armani, career earnings 18k; best results fourth place in Pughcraft Invitational #2(Major), 9th-12th in HSC IX(Premier), out of ro32 in Code S losing all of his matches(three times). Patience, career earnings 137k; one Premier victory, one second place, one third place, one fourth place, two semifinals in addiction to one Major victory and the #8 seed in GSL circuit in 2016 worth a BlizzCon ticket. Not simply tierS, many tiers. I don't think that the liquipedia results are more relevant here than his actual play, but well let's replace him with Leenock or Rangarok. Same story. Could any of them beat both Maru and Inno on GSL? The answer is still a no. The answer is yes, instead. And one thing is current shape(Patience is back to a good level again in 2019), another is the overall career; Armani is simply not close to Patience. tell us how trust is close to patience so he can give 3rd best terran such a hard time in macro games while losing 0-2 to impact. Gumiho stomped Zest today and beat Stats only a couple weeks ago. Maybe Gumiho just doesn't play as well against Trust.
I guess innovation just doesn't play as well against parting and ty against hurricane, that's why they failed to qualify to supertournament.
see the patterns? lower level protosses beating higher level terrans far more often than vice versa.
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What do you mean?
He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats.
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On April 30 2019 22:42 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:33 DrunkenSCV wrote:On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote:
The answer is yes, instead.
You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about. Leenock beat Maru at IEM and Inno more than once in Olimoleagues; Ragnarok beat Inno multiple times. It's hard, of course, but I don't see that as impossible since Maru's TvZ is not as untouchable as it was in 2018(well, MeomaikA). Before yesterday, Patience lost six bo3 in a row to Maru, who in turn had a huge TvP streak in Code S; if Patience beat both Inno and Maru, I don't see why Leenock and Ragnarok shouldn't have! If you name, let's say, Armani and DRG, it's a totally different question.
Im talking about relevancy in code S. Patience is a mainstay regular ro16 gatekeeper. Thats at best....one tier above the ro32 qualifiers...literally. Looking at the rest of the groups it would not surprise me a bit to see 8 protoss in ro16. Classic/Dear/Stats/Hero/Trap/SOS/Parting + ur boy patience.
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On May 01 2019 02:56 Doink wrote:What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats.
Yeah...4 straight code S makes never a constantly good player true that.. one ro32 loss eliminates u from contention like ....oh wait..stats last season..
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On the balance topic of lesser protosses cheesing out consisten victories over top tier terrans.
i think it comes down to, a point made by demuslim a couple weeks back on the pylon show, widowmines being revealed after their shots. It´s not so much that the WM powerlevel is the big thing here, it´s about the protosses lack of need for defensive planning in the early to midgame. Just take that wierd patience v maru game as an example. proxy gate, proxy stargate proxy twilight into proxy Dt into mass adept all in. He can get away with any variation of these shenanigans and maybe more because there is no need for protoss to get any sort of detection and there is no real way for terran pinning protosses into their bases (with low investment!) until 3M. So in consideration of this fact, terran has to either stay completely on the defensive while at best trading widowmines for some probes ( without pinning toss tho mind you since all it takes is 1 zealot to clean up the mine after it revealed itself!), or hardcore cheese all ins. There isn´t really any low risk low reward control play terran can do equivalent to say a couple of hellions in TvZ or Oracles/WP harras for protoss. Combine this with the fact that Protoss Tech and economy booms faster then terrans and Protosses arguably better lategame compositions and balance the game around a 50% winrate and you get the state of the game that we are in now.
Changes that might potentially do something about this situation could be:
remove the techlab requirement for banshees
give wm back stealth after shot
lower the research time of stim significantly ( well this one is probably shitty but figured i d just throw it out there)
make concussive shells baseline
introduce a cooldown based HP regeneration for damage taken from stimpack (like heal back up after 15 seconds out of combat or something)
there are a probably a lot more suggestions to be had but im just gonna stop here.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 01 2019 03:51 alpenrahm wrote:
On the balance topic of lesser protosses cheesing out consisten victories over top tier terrans.
i think it comes down to, a point made by demuslim a couple weeks back on the pylon show, widowmines being revealed after their shots. It´s not so much that the WM powerlevel is the big thing here, it´s about the protosses lack of need for defensive planning in the early to midgame. Just take that wierd patience v maru game as an example. proxy gate, proxy stargate proxy twilight into proxy Dt into mass adept all in. He can get away with any variation these shenanigans and maybe more because there is no need for protoss to get any sort of detection and there is no real way of terran pinning protosses into their bases (with low investment!) until 3M. So in consideration of this fact, terran has to either stay completely on the defensive while at best trading widowmines for some probes ( without pinning toss tho mind you!), or hardcore cheese all in but there isn´t really any low risk low reward control play terran can do equivalent to say a couple of hellions in TvZ or Oracles/WP harras for protoss. Combine this with the fact that Protoss Tech and economy booms faster then terrans and Protosses arguably better lategame compositions and balance the game around a 50% winrate and you get the state of the game that we are in now.
It's a design issue, if you change the WM back, you get the return of robo builds because you cannot reveal 2 mineral lines at the same time
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On May 01 2019 03:14 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 02:56 Doink wrote:What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats. Yeah...4 straight code S makes never a constantly good player true that.. one ro32 loss eliminates u from contention like ....oh wait..stats last season..
Not just the one ro32 loss. At weekenders he's getting beaten also very early.
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On May 01 2019 03:58 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 03:51 alpenrahm wrote:
On the balance topic of lesser protosses cheesing out consisten victories over top tier terrans.
i think it comes down to, a point made by demuslim a couple weeks back on the pylon show, widowmines being revealed after their shots. It´s not so much that the WM powerlevel is the big thing here, it´s about the protosses lack of need for defensive planning in the early to midgame. Just take that wierd patience v maru game as an example. proxy gate, proxy stargate proxy twilight into proxy Dt into mass adept all in. He can get away with any variation these shenanigans and maybe more because there is no need for protoss to get any sort of detection and there is no real way of terran pinning protosses into their bases (with low investment!) until 3M. So in consideration of this fact, terran has to either stay completely on the defensive while at best trading widowmines for some probes ( without pinning toss tho mind you!), or hardcore cheese all in but there isn´t really any low risk low reward control play terran can do equivalent to say a couple of hellions in TvZ or Oracles/WP harras for protoss. Combine this with the fact that Protoss Tech and economy booms faster then terrans and Protosses arguably better lategame compositions and balance the game around a 50% winrate and you get the state of the game that we are in now. It's a design issue, if you change the WM back, you get the return of robo builds because you cannot reveal 2 mineral lines at the same time
i do sincerly think the robo meta was preferable to what is happening now. atleast back then it was a risk for toss to go stargate or something before robo.
also edited the post again. you are just too quick master frost
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Finally Maru will get some vacation.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 01 2019 04:02 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 03:58 deacon.frost wrote:On May 01 2019 03:51 alpenrahm wrote:
On the balance topic of lesser protosses cheesing out consisten victories over top tier terrans.
i think it comes down to, a point made by demuslim a couple weeks back on the pylon show, widowmines being revealed after their shots. It´s not so much that the WM powerlevel is the big thing here, it´s about the protosses lack of need for defensive planning in the early to midgame. Just take that wierd patience v maru game as an example. proxy gate, proxy stargate proxy twilight into proxy Dt into mass adept all in. He can get away with any variation these shenanigans and maybe more because there is no need for protoss to get any sort of detection and there is no real way of terran pinning protosses into their bases (with low investment!) until 3M. So in consideration of this fact, terran has to either stay completely on the defensive while at best trading widowmines for some probes ( without pinning toss tho mind you!), or hardcore cheese all in but there isn´t really any low risk low reward control play terran can do equivalent to say a couple of hellions in TvZ or Oracles/WP harras for protoss. Combine this with the fact that Protoss Tech and economy booms faster then terrans and Protosses arguably better lategame compositions and balance the game around a 50% winrate and you get the state of the game that we are in now. It's a design issue, if you change the WM back, you get the return of robo builds because you cannot reveal 2 mineral lines at the same time i do sincerly think the robo meta was preferable to what is happening now. atleast back then it was a risk for toss to go stargate or something before robo. also edited the post again. you are just too quick master frost
You will get Protosses screaming all around they want another stable opening in PvT than Robo.
BTW I have a nasty sugestion - how about the mine would be visible to workers only and if the worker is attacking the mine a unit can attack as well. This way mines are still good at attacking mineral lines and are totally awesome at defensive situation as all you have to do is to snipe the worker 
Edit to the edit>
Faster stim makes sense. Medics would make the most sense. While blahblahblah redundancy and stuff, you can delay factory and starport and be aggressive with rax units only. Also add a dropship to factory. Both these units are inferior to medevac but would make early game attacks more viable(well, the dropship is probably bogus, as tanks > drops IMO)
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On May 01 2019 07:01 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 04:02 alpenrahm wrote:On May 01 2019 03:58 deacon.frost wrote:On May 01 2019 03:51 alpenrahm wrote:
On the balance topic of lesser protosses cheesing out consisten victories over top tier terrans.
i think it comes down to, a point made by demuslim a couple weeks back on the pylon show, widowmines being revealed after their shots. It´s not so much that the WM powerlevel is the big thing here, it´s about the protosses lack of need for defensive planning in the early to midgame. Just take that wierd patience v maru game as an example. proxy gate, proxy stargate proxy twilight into proxy Dt into mass adept all in. He can get away with any variation these shenanigans and maybe more because there is no need for protoss to get any sort of detection and there is no real way of terran pinning protosses into their bases (with low investment!) until 3M. So in consideration of this fact, terran has to either stay completely on the defensive while at best trading widowmines for some probes ( without pinning toss tho mind you!), or hardcore cheese all in but there isn´t really any low risk low reward control play terran can do equivalent to say a couple of hellions in TvZ or Oracles/WP harras for protoss. Combine this with the fact that Protoss Tech and economy booms faster then terrans and Protosses arguably better lategame compositions and balance the game around a 50% winrate and you get the state of the game that we are in now. It's a design issue, if you change the WM back, you get the return of robo builds because you cannot reveal 2 mineral lines at the same time i do sincerly think the robo meta was preferable to what is happening now. atleast back then it was a risk for toss to go stargate or something before robo. also edited the post again. you are just too quick master frost You will get Protosses screaming all around they want another stable opening in PvT than Robo. BTW I have a nasty sugestion - how about the mine would be visible to workers only and if the worker is attacking the mine a unit can attack as well. This way mines are still good at attacking mineral lines and are totally awesome at defensive situation as all you have to do is to snipe the worker Edit to the edit> Faster stim makes sense. Medics would make the most sense. While blahblahblah redundancy and stuff, you can delay factory and starport and be aggressive with rax units only. Also add a dropship to factory. Both these units are inferior to medevac but would make early game attacks more viable(well, the dropship is probably bogus, as tanks > drops IMO)
oh dont be silly  this isn´t BW!
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On May 01 2019 02:56 Doink wrote:What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats.
you're wrong
ever since the days of Proleague he has been always in Code S with high finishes and a lot of consistent results.
you're just wrong
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On May 01 2019 04:00 Doink wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 03:14 DomeGetta wrote:On May 01 2019 02:56 Doink wrote:What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats. Yeah...4 straight code S makes never a constantly good player true that.. one ro32 loss eliminates u from contention like ....oh wait..stats last season.. Not just the one ro32 loss. At weekenders he's getting beaten also very early.
which ones despite this Super tournament and katowice? I just count 2
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On May 01 2019 20:31 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 02:56 Doink wrote:What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats. you're wrong ever since the days of Proleague he has been always in Code S with high finishes and a lot of consistent results. you're just wrong
You have to realize half of these people don't even pay attention but just regurgitate stuff they read.
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On May 01 2019 20:31 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 02:56 Doink wrote:What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats. you're wrong ever since the days of Proleague he has been always in Code S with high finishes and a lot of consistent results. you're just wrong
innovation lose to freaking rail in macro game at wesg and refused to play any more of it and all-inned him, despite beating serral and maru, big oof.
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On April 30 2019 20:26 Hvvacha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote:
I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied. come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day.
well
Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32
Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon
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EPT
