AfreecaTV's promise of a "Renaissance" was fulfilled on opening night of Code S Season 2 as 4-time consecutive champion Maru suffered shock elimination from the round of 32. For the first time since Season 3 in 2017, Code S is guaranteed to crown a champion other than Maru.
The reigning king of Code S was dethroned by the combined efforts of Patience and INnoVation, who defeated Maru in the winners' match and decider match respectively.
For Patience, it might have been the sweetest revenge—Maru had picked Patience in two prior round of 16 group selections, labeling him a weak opponent in front of his peers. In the winners' match, Maru was made to fear and respect Patience's all-ins, if not necessarily Patience himself. INnoVation then finished Maru off in the group decider match, winning a thrilling TvT series worthy of a much higher round.
Code S will continue with Group B of the RO32 (GuMiho, Trust, Impact, Zest) on Tuesday, Apr 30 9:30am GMT (GMT+00:00).
On April 24 2019 03:02 BerserkSword wrote: are people trolling about patience?
Maru and Inno should have this easily
There's one player I will never count out for an upset, and it's Patience. Calling it now, he advances in first and then Maru loses to Inno in the decider.
On April 30 2019 06:03 Waxangel wrote: Dark age of the Church of Maru is over, the arts of enlightened Protoss painters will flourish.
Happy birthday!
I had a feeling Maru might drop out of this one to be honest. Patience is a lot like sOs to me in the sense that sometimes he will just show up and bring you a loss. Innovation of course is a TvT monster as well.
Also calling a Protoss nerf before the Ro16. It's pretty clear that the upgrade nerf had little to no effect. Who would've thought?
As long as Maru is winning the balance team seems reluctant to step in, but they did take a hand the last time he bombed out early (IEM). Especially now with this coming after the Super Tournament making history, and not in a good way.
Also they've been silent for well over a month, so I'd expect another community update regardless.
On April 30 2019 05:42 StabiloBoss20 wrote: while i'm happy for Patience, i need to say the way he bulldozed through those terrans with (mostly) mass gateway units was disgusting.
he had really well prepared builds and the terrans played kinda sloppy.
On April 30 2019 06:11 pvsnp wrote: Also calling a Protoss nerf before the Ro16. It's pretty clear that the upgrade nerf had little to no effect. Who would've thought?
As long as Maru is winning the balance team seems reluctant to step in, but they did take a hand the last time he bombed out early (IEM). Especially now with this coming after the Super Tournament making history, and not in a good way. Also they've been silent for well over a month, so I'd expect another community update regardless.
Doubt, they will IMO wait until RO8 and then it will be way too late.
Edit> Also considering the strongest foreigners are 3 Z, 1 T and 1 P while the strongest Zergs in Korea are soO(ZvZ only), Dark(RO4 only) and Rogue(slumping currently) I wonder how they gonna solve the Zerg state which will look even worse than Terran... hmm, writing this I can see 1 T 1 Z 6 P in RO8, please group selection do it so this doesn't happen.
I'm glad that INno was able to take out Maru, game 3 was especially sick. Even though Patience advanced first, I feel like those adept all-ins are feeling a little on the stronger side of the Protoss build spectrum
Inno seems pretty weak against toss, I worry he'll get thrown into a snake pit of toss and lose in the ro16 for the 5th time in a row. His other matchups look good, but that means little in today's toss heavy Korea. Given Inno's fondness for repeated parade pushes and scv pulls you'd think the timing push tvp meta would suit him...
Hm guys, I would just like to point out Terran won seven Code S in LoTV, six consecutively; Protoss won it twice, the last of which well over two years ago.
Moreover, the Protoss menace that seems to be so real in your minds has produced only Super Tournament victories in 2018-2019.
PvT, as well, is a less onesided matchup than you think and Zerg cannot choke forever in Korea, it's not like a Protoss victory is certain; in any of case, why would it be a disaster like your words would suggest?
On April 30 2019 08:19 Xain0n wrote: Hm guys, I would just like to point out Terran won seven Code S in LoTV, six consecutively; Protoss won it twice, the last of which well over two years ago.
Moreover, the Protoss menace that seems to be so real in your minds has produced only Super Tournament victories in 2018-2019.
PvT, as well, is a less onesided matchup than you think and Zerg cannot choke forever in Korea, it's not like a Protoss victory is certain; in any of case, why would it be a disaster like your words would suggest?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't care whether a protoss takes it or not. I do care if we have another terrible Ro8 like the super tournament with nothing but PvP's.
Hm guys, I would just like to point out Terran won seven Code S in LoTV, six consecutively; Protoss won twice, the last of which well over two years ago.
I can give some explanation
This 7 Code S are 4 for Maru. 1 For Byun in 2016 a lot of patch were made since that period that was quite an other version of the game same for Innovation in 2017. We are today in 2019. And Gumiho won against soO and every one can win against soO in the final except the other kong. With the politic of blizzard today all the consideration about balance must be reviewed because they make a patch at least every year
We are talking about the state of the game currently in 2019. (And in my opinion TvP is realy hard since 2018 Maru won a lot of TvP just with cheeses proxy plays or two base timing attack but in pure macrogame he didn't beat to much good protoss player no? I m not sure) But in Korea Maru was just to strong in preparation format but in super tournament protosses won those both edition. Same for this year. This 2018 for me TvP looks like pretty hard for terran at every level and this year it's even worth and blizzard didn't change many thinks for that.
On April 30 2019 08:19 Xain0n wrote: Hm guys, I would just like to point out Terran won seven Code S in LoTV, six consecutively; Protoss won it twice, the last of which well over two years ago.
Moreover, the Protoss menace that seems to be so real in your minds has produced only Super Tournament victories in 2018-2019.
PvT, as well, is a less onesided matchup than you think and Zerg cannot choke forever in Korea, it's not like a Protoss victory is certain; in any of case, why would it be a disaster like your words would suggest?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't care whether a protoss takes it or not. I do care if we have another terrible Ro8 like the super tournament with nothing but PvP's.
That's what certain people don't understand, it's not about who won, but how the RO8 looks(or RO16). If Terran wins but it's a single Terran, a Zerg and 6 Protoss players(e.g.), then it's not an OK state(while being this Code S we need to how this happened as the group selection can shift it at some moments).
On April 30 2019 08:19 Xain0n wrote: Hm guys, I would just like to point out Terran won seven Code S in LoTV, six consecutively; Protoss won it twice, the last of which well over two years ago.
Moreover, the Protoss menace that seems to be so real in your minds has produced only Super Tournament victories in 2018-2019.
PvT, as well, is a less onesided matchup than you think and Zerg cannot choke forever in Korea, it's not like a Protoss victory is certain; in any of case, why would it be a disaster like your words would suggest?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't care whether a protoss takes it or not. I do care if we have another terrible Ro8 like the super tournament with nothing but PvP's.
That's what certain people don't understand, it's not about who won, but how the RO8 looks(or RO16). If Terran wins but it's a single Terran, a Zerg and 6 Protoss players(e.g.), then it's not an OK state(while being this Code S we need to how this happened as the group selection can shift it at some moments).
Asking for one even ro8 composition is legit but premature; in that worst case scenario you described, swapping Maru with Patience would only make 5P 2T 1Z so if that was the only thing you are worried of, Maru dropping out would be almost irrelevant.
On April 30 2019 08:19 Xain0n wrote: Hm guys, I would just like to point out Terran won seven Code S in LoTV, six consecutively; Protoss won it twice, the last of which well over two years ago.
Moreover, the Protoss menace that seems to be so real in your minds has produced only Super Tournament victories in 2018-2019.
PvT, as well, is a less onesided matchup than you think and Zerg cannot choke forever in Korea, it's not like a Protoss victory is certain; in any of case, why would it be a disaster like your words would suggest?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't care whether a protoss takes it or not. I do care if we have another terrible Ro8 like the super tournament with nothing but PvP's.
That's what certain people don't understand, it's not about who won, but how the RO8 looks(or RO16). If Terran wins but it's a single Terran, a Zerg and 6 Protoss players(e.g.), then it's not an OK state(while being this Code S we need to how this happened as the group selection can shift it at some moments).
It is very difficult to get a man to understand something when his winrates depend on him not understanding it.
i'm happy that code S will finally see a new champion, but like people here said i'm not into full on PvP in ro8. i actually skipped about half of the games in the super tournament because i was fed up with the match up. as a retired (random) player who only watch i don't care too much for balance, but i will pass on games in the gsl as well if it will be a similar situation.
On April 30 2019 08:19 Xain0n wrote: Hm guys, I would just like to point out Terran won seven Code S in LoTV, six consecutively; Protoss won it twice, the last of which well over two years ago.
Moreover, the Protoss menace that seems to be so real in your minds has produced only Super Tournament victories in 2018-2019.
PvT, as well, is a less onesided matchup than you think and Zerg cannot choke forever in Korea, it's not like a Protoss victory is certain; in any of case, why would it be a disaster like your words would suggest?
Yeah if at any time Terran was taking an overwhelming number of the ro32/ro16/ro8 we would have been hearing about it. Maru has won every code S since the msc patch but the field of nearly every code S / ST / IEM has been skewed toward toss. Not as overwhelmingly as we see now but this is a normal thing to have happen when the game is not in a balanced state. Outliers can muddy the water for a time but eventually it will be exploited. The guy who literally everyone wants in their ro16 group stomped current best player in the world and inno who is clearly in good form as of late. Matchup needs review and big changes..not simple compartmentized buffs or nerfs. Im good with waiting for it to become more apparent even if that means end of s2 gsl.
I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
On April 30 2019 11:28 Carminedust wrote: well then looks like the magic number of consecutive gsl finals is 4 before the starcraft gods get tired of you and smite you in the round of 32
That Maru vs Innovation series was really good. I heard that Innovation has never lost ro32 in GSL whereas Maru loses around 20% of them. Too bad Inno plays so much worse in ro16. I think if he can make ro8, he has good odds of winning since I've always seen him as being a really good bo5 and bo7 player (kind of like the opposite of TY who excels in bo3 format, as evidenced by his GSL ro16 performances).
On April 30 2019 06:11 pvsnp wrote: Also calling a Protoss nerf before the Ro16. It's pretty clear that the upgrade nerf had little to no effect. Who would've thought?
As long as Maru is winning the balance team seems reluctant to step in, but they did take a hand the last time he bombed out early (IEM). Especially now with this coming after the Super Tournament making history, and not in a good way.
Also they've been silent for well over a month, so I'd expect another community update regardless.
On April 30 2019 08:19 Xain0n wrote: Hm guys, I would just like to point out Terran won seven Code S in LoTV, six consecutively; Protoss won it twice, the last of which well over two years ago.
Moreover, the Protoss menace that seems to be so real in your minds has produced only Super Tournament victories in 2018-2019.
PvT, as well, is a less onesided matchup than you think and Zerg cannot choke forever in Korea, it's not like a Protoss victory is certain; in any of case, why would it be a disaster like your words would suggest?
Yeah if at any time Terran was taking an overwhelming number of the ro32/ro16/ro8 we would have been hearing about it. Maru has won every code S since the msc patch but the field of nearly every code S / ST / IEM has been skewed toward toss. Not as overwhelmingly as we see now but this is a normal thing to have happen when the game is not in a balanced state. Outliers can muddy the water for a time but eventually it will be exploited. The guy who literally everyone wants in their ro16 group stomped current best player in the world and inno who is clearly in good form as of late. Matchup needs review and big changes..not simple compartmentized buffs or nerfs. Im good with waiting for it to become more apparent even if that means end of s2 gsl.
Terran struggled against Protoss in the qualifiers for this GSL. Protoss had a 79.5% win rate against Terran in the qualifiers for this GSL.
Imagine if this adept cheeze comes to ladder, dark ages, instead of mass blink cheeze we will have mass shade cheeze in a week or two. Also i would like to point out its definetally holdable strategy, but you need a dedicated wall of engbay + depots and 1/2bunkers + siege tanks and maybe fast banshee or lib, neither maru or inno seems to practiced against this type of cheeze much and whos to blame them? toss can do 15 different 2 base cheezes. Its no wonder both maru and inno was laughing in there games vs patience.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Sometimes it's also because he just can't be bothered trying very hard, you know?
On April 30 2019 08:19 Xain0n wrote: Hm guys, I would just like to point out Terran won seven Code S in LoTV, six consecutively; Protoss won it twice, the last of which well over two years ago.
Moreover, the Protoss menace that seems to be so real in your minds has produced only Super Tournament victories in 2018-2019.
PvT, as well, is a less onesided matchup than you think and Zerg cannot choke forever in Korea, it's not like a Protoss victory is certain; in any of case, why would it be a disaster like your words would suggest?
Because the Terran and Zerg players will never be happy till Protoss is removed from the game.
although patience isn't a top 16 caliber player, he came prepared and outplayed his opponents, Maru seemed pretty unaware of what was going on in both games and respondedly poorly, Inno was less clueless but didnt defend well enough, it happens.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Wait, who said that here on TL? I read mostly that Patience brought up good builds and his TvInnovation in LotV is tragic.
This is why I questioned why everyone was counting out Patience so easily given his showing at the Super Tournament. I didn't expect him to come out 1st, but I definitely thought that he had a chance at sneaking through 2nd place.
Can't believe how both Inno and Maru underestimated him. Maru is probably regretting it now choosing Patience in his group.
On April 30 2019 11:11 pdd wrote: Noob here, but was Patience adept attack really all in?
He expanded behind it and it just looked like no matter what he would do significant economic damage. (Maybe Maru played it wrong).
Sure he may be behind in tech and army if it fails, but the economic damage would have kept him safe enough to rebuild an army no?
At least in the first game, he shouldn't have done any damage but Maru lifted up all the mines at his wall right as the adepts hit. If Patience let that finish, 4 mines would've hit all his adepts and the game would've been instantly over.
Patience got pretty lucky I think (plus a lot of mistakes from the terrans). It worked out in all the games but I don't think the significant economic damage was inevitable in any of those games, it just happened to play out that way in every game.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players.
Armani is tiers below Patience, who in 2016 won a Premier and did well enough to qualify for BlizzCon.
Patience probably felt confidence because he knew his builds would have given him more than a chanche.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players.
Armani is tiers below Patience, who in 2016 won a Premier and did well enough to qualify for BlizzCon.
Patience probably felt confidence because he knew his builds would have given him more than a chanche.
Not really sure you can call anyone in ro32 code S "tierS" below patience with a straight face lol. If you have ever watched a ro16 selection that is. Possibly a stretch to even say tier.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players.
Armani is tiers below Patience, who in 2016 won a Premier and did well enough to qualify for BlizzCon.
Patience probably felt confidence because he knew his builds would have given him more than a chanche.
Not really sure you can call anyone in ro32 code S "tierS" below patience with a straight face lol. If you have ever watched a ro16 selection that is. Possibly a stretch to even say tier.
Let's hear what Liquipedia tells us!
Armani, career earnings 18k; best results fourth place in Pughcraft Invitational #2(Major), 9th-12th in HSC IX(Premier), out of ro32 in Code S losing all of his matches(three times).
Patience, career earnings 137k; one Premier victory, one second place, one third place, one fourth place, two semifinals in addiction to one Major victory and the #8 seed in GSL circuit in 2016 worth a BlizzCon ticket.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players.
Armani is tiers below Patience, who in 2016 won a Premier and did well enough to qualify for BlizzCon.
Patience probably felt confidence because he knew his builds would have given him more than a chanche.
Not really sure you can call anyone in ro32 code S "tierS" below patience with a straight face lol. If you have ever watched a ro16 selection that is. Possibly a stretch to even say tier.
Let's hear what Liquipedia tells us!
Armani, career earnings 18k; best results fourth place in Pughcraft Invitational #2(Major), 9th-12th in HSC IX(Premier), out of ro32 in Code S losing all of his matches(three times).
Patience, career earnings 137k; one Premier victory, one second place, one third place, one fourth place, two semifinals in addiction to one Major victory and the #8 seed in GSL circuit in 2016 worth a BlizzCon ticket.
Not simply tierS, many tiers.
I don't think that the liquipedia results are more relevant here than his actual play, but well let's replace him with Leenock or Rangarok. Same story. Could any of them beat both Maru and Inno on GSL? The answer is still a no.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players.
Armani is tiers below Patience, who in 2016 won a Premier and did well enough to qualify for BlizzCon.
Patience probably felt confidence because he knew his builds would have given him more than a chanche.
Not really sure you can call anyone in ro32 code S "tierS" below patience with a straight face lol. If you have ever watched a ro16 selection that is. Possibly a stretch to even say tier.
Let's hear what Liquipedia tells us!
Armani, career earnings 18k; best results fourth place in Pughcraft Invitational #2(Major), 9th-12th in HSC IX(Premier), out of ro32 in Code S losing all of his matches(three times).
Patience, career earnings 137k; one Premier victory, one second place, one third place, one fourth place, two semifinals in addiction to one Major victory and the #8 seed in GSL circuit in 2016 worth a BlizzCon ticket.
Not simply tierS, many tiers.
I don't think that the liquipedia results are more relevant here than his actual play, but well let's replace him with Leenock or Rangarok. Same story. Could any of them beat both Maru and Inno on GSL? The answer is still a no.
The answer is yes, instead.
And one thing is current shape(Patience is back to a good level again in 2019), another is the overall career; Armani is simply not close to Patience.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players.
Armani is tiers below Patience, who in 2016 won a Premier and did well enough to qualify for BlizzCon.
Patience probably felt confidence because he knew his builds would have given him more than a chanche.
Not really sure you can call anyone in ro32 code S "tierS" below patience with a straight face lol. If you have ever watched a ro16 selection that is. Possibly a stretch to even say tier.
Let's hear what Liquipedia tells us!
Armani, career earnings 18k; best results fourth place in Pughcraft Invitational #2(Major), 9th-12th in HSC IX(Premier), out of ro32 in Code S losing all of his matches(three times).
Patience, career earnings 137k; one Premier victory, one second place, one third place, one fourth place, two semifinals in addiction to one Major victory and the #8 seed in GSL circuit in 2016 worth a BlizzCon ticket.
Not simply tierS, many tiers.
I don't think that the liquipedia results are more relevant here than his actual play, but well let's replace him with Leenock or Rangarok. Same story. Could any of them beat both Maru and Inno on GSL? The answer is still a no.
The answer is yes, instead.
And one thing is current shape(Patience is back to a good level again in 2019), another is the overall career; Armani is simply not close to Patience.
tell us how trust is close to patience so he can give 3rd best terran such a hard time in macro games while losing 0-2 to impact.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players.
Armani is tiers below Patience, who in 2016 won a Premier and did well enough to qualify for BlizzCon.
Patience probably felt confidence because he knew his builds would have given him more than a chanche.
Not really sure you can call anyone in ro32 code S "tierS" below patience with a straight face lol. If you have ever watched a ro16 selection that is. Possibly a stretch to even say tier.
Let's hear what Liquipedia tells us!
Armani, career earnings 18k; best results fourth place in Pughcraft Invitational #2(Major), 9th-12th in HSC IX(Premier), out of ro32 in Code S losing all of his matches(three times).
Patience, career earnings 137k; one Premier victory, one second place, one third place, one fourth place, two semifinals in addiction to one Major victory and the #8 seed in GSL circuit in 2016 worth a BlizzCon ticket.
Not simply tierS, many tiers.
I don't think that the liquipedia results are more relevant here than his actual play, but well let's replace him with Leenock or Rangarok. Same story. Could any of them beat both Maru and Inno on GSL? The answer is still a no.
The answer is yes, instead.
And one thing is current shape(Patience is back to a good level again in 2019), another is the overall career; Armani is simply not close to Patience.
tell us how trust is close to patience so he can give 3rd best terran such a hard time in macro games while losing 0-2 to impact.
Gumiho stomped Zest today and beat Stats only a couple weeks ago. Maybe Gumiho just doesn't play as well against Trust.
On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote: The answer is yes, instead.
You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players.
Armani is tiers below Patience, who in 2016 won a Premier and did well enough to qualify for BlizzCon.
Patience probably felt confidence because he knew his builds would have given him more than a chanche.
Not really sure you can call anyone in ro32 code S "tierS" below patience with a straight face lol. If you have ever watched a ro16 selection that is. Possibly a stretch to even say tier.
Let's hear what Liquipedia tells us!
Armani, career earnings 18k; best results fourth place in Pughcraft Invitational #2(Major), 9th-12th in HSC IX(Premier), out of ro32 in Code S losing all of his matches(three times).
Patience, career earnings 137k; one Premier victory, one second place, one third place, one fourth place, two semifinals in addiction to one Major victory and the #8 seed in GSL circuit in 2016 worth a BlizzCon ticket.
Not simply tierS, many tiers.
I don't think that the liquipedia results are more relevant here than his actual play, but well let's replace him with Leenock or Rangarok. Same story. Could any of them beat both Maru and Inno on GSL? The answer is still a no.
Hasn't Leenock beaten Maru before? Not in GSL, but I distinctly remember Leenock beating Maru in a 2019 tournament.
If you pit Leenock vs Maru then Leenock isn't the favorite obviously but it's not like he's an NA Masters level player.
On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote: The answer is yes, instead.
You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about.
Leenock beat Maru at IEM and Inno more than once in Olimoleagues; Ragnarok beat Inno multiple times. It's hard, of course, but I don't see that as impossible since Maru's TvZ is not as untouchable as it was in 2018(well, MeomaikA).
Before yesterday, Patience lost six bo3 in a row to Maru, who in turn had a huge TvP streak in Code S; if Patience beat both Inno and Maru, I don't see why Leenock and Ragnarok shouldn't have! If you name, let's say, Armani and DRG, it's a totally different question.
On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote: The answer is yes, instead.
You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about.
Leenock beat Maru at IEM and Inno more than once in Olimoleagues; Ragnarok beat Inno multiple times. It's hard, of course, but I don't see that as impossible since Maru's TvZ is not as untouchable as it was in 2018(well, MeomaikA).
Before yesterday, Patience lost six bo3 in a row to Maru, who in turn had a huge TvP streak in Code S; if Patience beat both Inno and Maru, I don't see why Leenock and Ragnarok shouldn't have! If you name, let's say, Armani and DRG, it's a totally different question.
Alright, Aligulac finally works. I just wanna say that according to aligulac the chance for Leenock to do what Patience did is less than 2%. No wonders we've never seen anything like that. But if you are protoss... who knows what may happen?
On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote: The answer is yes, instead.
You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about.
Leenock beat Maru at IEM and Inno more than once in Olimoleagues; Ragnarok beat Inno multiple times. It's hard, of course, but I don't see that as impossible since Maru's TvZ is not as untouchable as it was in 2018(well, MeomaikA).
Before yesterday, Patience lost six bo3 in a row to Maru, who in turn had a huge TvP streak in Code S; if Patience beat both Inno and Maru, I don't see why Leenock and Ragnarok shouldn't have! If you name, let's say, Armani and DRG, it's a totally different question.
Alright, Aligulac finally works. I just wanna say that according to aligulac the chance of winning for Leenock to do what Patience did is less than 2%. No wonders we've never seen anything like that. But if you are protoss... who knows what may happen?
Meh, if Maru didn't do his MeomaikA shit he would have won 2:1, let's just not pretend taht this isn't the case. All he had to do was to play safe standard. I know he cannot do that and that cost him the game. 9 out of 10 games he will win against Patience because Patience is bad. Well, Patience just took his games where he wins and got his revenge
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
Can you imagine Armani winning 2-0 2-1 over Inno and Maru? Actually, he showed pretty good games, but somehow it was clear that there was no scenario where he slays both terran titans. I think Armani - Patience could be a close match. At least it's safe to say that Patience and Armani are closer to each other skillwise than Patience and Inno/Maru. So how come that the scenario where Patience wins both terran players not only looked realistical but turned out to be true? When Patience said in his post-match interview that he was confident going against Maru and Inno, I burst out laughing. But damn I did believe that. Serral wouldn't be confident, TY the TvT God wouldn't be confident. But a tier 2 protoss player felt pretty damn good about his upcoming matches against two best terran players in the world. Sure it's all just the mentality of terran players.
Armani is tiers below Patience, who in 2016 won a Premier and did well enough to qualify for BlizzCon.
Patience probably felt confidence because he knew his builds would have given him more than a chanche.
Not really sure you can call anyone in ro32 code S "tierS" below patience with a straight face lol. If you have ever watched a ro16 selection that is. Possibly a stretch to even say tier.
Let's hear what Liquipedia tells us!
Armani, career earnings 18k; best results fourth place in Pughcraft Invitational #2(Major), 9th-12th in HSC IX(Premier), out of ro32 in Code S losing all of his matches(three times).
Patience, career earnings 137k; one Premier victory, one second place, one third place, one fourth place, two semifinals in addiction to one Major victory and the #8 seed in GSL circuit in 2016 worth a BlizzCon ticket.
Not simply tierS, many tiers.
I don't think that the liquipedia results are more relevant here than his actual play, but well let's replace him with Leenock or Rangarok. Same story. Could any of them beat both Maru and Inno on GSL? The answer is still a no.
The answer is yes, instead.
And one thing is current shape(Patience is back to a good level again in 2019), another is the overall career; Armani is simply not close to Patience.
tell us how trust is close to patience so he can give 3rd best terran such a hard time in macro games while losing 0-2 to impact.
Gumiho stomped Zest today and beat Stats only a couple weeks ago. Maybe Gumiho just doesn't play as well against Trust.
I guess innovation just doesn't play as well against parting and ty against hurricane, that's why they failed to qualify to supertournament. see the patterns? lower level protosses beating higher level terrans far more often than vice versa.
What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats.
On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote: The answer is yes, instead.
You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about.
Leenock beat Maru at IEM and Inno more than once in Olimoleagues; Ragnarok beat Inno multiple times. It's hard, of course, but I don't see that as impossible since Maru's TvZ is not as untouchable as it was in 2018(well, MeomaikA).
Before yesterday, Patience lost six bo3 in a row to Maru, who in turn had a huge TvP streak in Code S; if Patience beat both Inno and Maru, I don't see why Leenock and Ragnarok shouldn't have! If you name, let's say, Armani and DRG, it's a totally different question.
Im talking about relevancy in code S. Patience is a mainstay regular ro16 gatekeeper. Thats at best....one tier above the ro32 qualifiers...literally. Looking at the rest of the groups it would not surprise me a bit to see 8 protoss in ro16. Classic/Dear/Stats/Hero/Trap/SOS/Parting + ur boy patience.
What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats.
Yeah...4 straight code S makes never a constantly good player true that.. one ro32 loss eliminates u from contention like ....oh wait..stats last season..
On the balance topic of lesser protosses cheesing out consisten victories over top tier terrans. i think it comes down to, a point made by demuslim a couple weeks back on the pylon show, widowmines being revealed after their shots. It´s not so much that the WM powerlevel is the big thing here, it´s about the protosses lack of need for defensive planning in the early to midgame. Just take that wierd patience v maru game as an example. proxy gate, proxy stargate proxy twilight into proxy Dt into mass adept all in. He can get away with any variation of these shenanigans and maybe more because there is no need for protoss to get any sort of detection and there is no real way for terran pinning protosses into their bases (with low investment!) until 3M. So in consideration of this fact, terran has to either stay completely on the defensive while at best trading widowmines for some probes ( without pinning toss tho mind you since all it takes is 1 zealot to clean up the mine after it revealed itself!), or hardcore cheese all ins. There isn´t really any low risk low reward control play terran can do equivalent to say a couple of hellions in TvZ or Oracles/WP harras for protoss. Combine this with the fact that Protoss Tech and economy booms faster then terrans and Protosses arguably better lategame compositions and balance the game around a 50% winrate and you get the state of the game that we are in now.
Changes that might potentially do something about this situation could be: remove the techlab requirement for banshees give wm back stealth after shot lower the research time of stim significantly ( well this one is probably shitty but figured i d just throw it out there) make concussive shells baseline introduce a cooldown based HP regeneration for damage taken from stimpack (like heal back up after 15 seconds out of combat or something)
there are a probably a lot more suggestions to be had but im just gonna stop here.
On May 01 2019 03:51 alpenrahm wrote: On the balance topic of lesser protosses cheesing out consisten victories over top tier terrans. i think it comes down to, a point made by demuslim a couple weeks back on the pylon show, widowmines being revealed after their shots. It´s not so much that the WM powerlevel is the big thing here, it´s about the protosses lack of need for defensive planning in the early to midgame. Just take that wierd patience v maru game as an example. proxy gate, proxy stargate proxy twilight into proxy Dt into mass adept all in. He can get away with any variation these shenanigans and maybe more because there is no need for protoss to get any sort of detection and there is no real way of terran pinning protosses into their bases (with low investment!) until 3M. So in consideration of this fact, terran has to either stay completely on the defensive while at best trading widowmines for some probes ( without pinning toss tho mind you!), or hardcore cheese all in but there isn´t really any low risk low reward control play terran can do equivalent to say a couple of hellions in TvZ or Oracles/WP harras for protoss. Combine this with the fact that Protoss Tech and economy booms faster then terrans and Protosses arguably better lategame compositions and balance the game around a 50% winrate and you get the state of the game that we are in now.
It's a design issue, if you change the WM back, you get the return of robo builds because you cannot reveal 2 mineral lines at the same time
What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats.
Yeah...4 straight code S makes never a constantly good player true that.. one ro32 loss eliminates u from contention like ....oh wait..stats last season..
Not just the one ro32 loss. At weekenders he's getting beaten also very early.
On May 01 2019 03:51 alpenrahm wrote: On the balance topic of lesser protosses cheesing out consisten victories over top tier terrans. i think it comes down to, a point made by demuslim a couple weeks back on the pylon show, widowmines being revealed after their shots. It´s not so much that the WM powerlevel is the big thing here, it´s about the protosses lack of need for defensive planning in the early to midgame. Just take that wierd patience v maru game as an example. proxy gate, proxy stargate proxy twilight into proxy Dt into mass adept all in. He can get away with any variation these shenanigans and maybe more because there is no need for protoss to get any sort of detection and there is no real way of terran pinning protosses into their bases (with low investment!) until 3M. So in consideration of this fact, terran has to either stay completely on the defensive while at best trading widowmines for some probes ( without pinning toss tho mind you!), or hardcore cheese all in but there isn´t really any low risk low reward control play terran can do equivalent to say a couple of hellions in TvZ or Oracles/WP harras for protoss. Combine this with the fact that Protoss Tech and economy booms faster then terrans and Protosses arguably better lategame compositions and balance the game around a 50% winrate and you get the state of the game that we are in now.
It's a design issue, if you change the WM back, you get the return of robo builds because you cannot reveal 2 mineral lines at the same time
i do sincerly think the robo meta was preferable to what is happening now. atleast back then it was a risk for toss to go stargate or something before robo.
also edited the post again. you are just too quick master frost
On May 01 2019 03:51 alpenrahm wrote: On the balance topic of lesser protosses cheesing out consisten victories over top tier terrans. i think it comes down to, a point made by demuslim a couple weeks back on the pylon show, widowmines being revealed after their shots. It´s not so much that the WM powerlevel is the big thing here, it´s about the protosses lack of need for defensive planning in the early to midgame. Just take that wierd patience v maru game as an example. proxy gate, proxy stargate proxy twilight into proxy Dt into mass adept all in. He can get away with any variation these shenanigans and maybe more because there is no need for protoss to get any sort of detection and there is no real way of terran pinning protosses into their bases (with low investment!) until 3M. So in consideration of this fact, terran has to either stay completely on the defensive while at best trading widowmines for some probes ( without pinning toss tho mind you!), or hardcore cheese all in but there isn´t really any low risk low reward control play terran can do equivalent to say a couple of hellions in TvZ or Oracles/WP harras for protoss. Combine this with the fact that Protoss Tech and economy booms faster then terrans and Protosses arguably better lategame compositions and balance the game around a 50% winrate and you get the state of the game that we are in now.
It's a design issue, if you change the WM back, you get the return of robo builds because you cannot reveal 2 mineral lines at the same time
i do sincerly think the robo meta was preferable to what is happening now. atleast back then it was a risk for toss to go stargate or something before robo.
also edited the post again. you are just too quick master frost
You will get Protosses screaming all around they want another stable opening in PvT than Robo.
BTW I have a nasty sugestion - how about the mine would be visible to workers only and if the worker is attacking the mine a unit can attack as well. This way mines are still good at attacking mineral lines and are totally awesome at defensive situation as all you have to do is to snipe the worker
Edit to the edit> Faster stim makes sense. Medics would make the most sense. While blahblahblah redundancy and stuff, you can delay factory and starport and be aggressive with rax units only. Also add a dropship to factory. Both these units are inferior to medevac but would make early game attacks more viable(well, the dropship is probably bogus, as tanks > drops IMO)
On May 01 2019 03:51 alpenrahm wrote: On the balance topic of lesser protosses cheesing out consisten victories over top tier terrans. i think it comes down to, a point made by demuslim a couple weeks back on the pylon show, widowmines being revealed after their shots. It´s not so much that the WM powerlevel is the big thing here, it´s about the protosses lack of need for defensive planning in the early to midgame. Just take that wierd patience v maru game as an example. proxy gate, proxy stargate proxy twilight into proxy Dt into mass adept all in. He can get away with any variation these shenanigans and maybe more because there is no need for protoss to get any sort of detection and there is no real way of terran pinning protosses into their bases (with low investment!) until 3M. So in consideration of this fact, terran has to either stay completely on the defensive while at best trading widowmines for some probes ( without pinning toss tho mind you!), or hardcore cheese all in but there isn´t really any low risk low reward control play terran can do equivalent to say a couple of hellions in TvZ or Oracles/WP harras for protoss. Combine this with the fact that Protoss Tech and economy booms faster then terrans and Protosses arguably better lategame compositions and balance the game around a 50% winrate and you get the state of the game that we are in now.
It's a design issue, if you change the WM back, you get the return of robo builds because you cannot reveal 2 mineral lines at the same time
i do sincerly think the robo meta was preferable to what is happening now. atleast back then it was a risk for toss to go stargate or something before robo.
also edited the post again. you are just too quick master frost
You will get Protosses screaming all around they want another stable opening in PvT than Robo.
BTW I have a nasty sugestion - how about the mine would be visible to workers only and if the worker is attacking the mine a unit can attack as well. This way mines are still good at attacking mineral lines and are totally awesome at defensive situation as all you have to do is to snipe the worker
Edit to the edit> Faster stim makes sense. Medics would make the most sense. While blahblahblah redundancy and stuff, you can delay factory and starport and be aggressive with rax units only. Also add a dropship to factory. Both these units are inferior to medevac but would make early game attacks more viable(well, the dropship is probably bogus, as tanks > drops IMO)
What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats.
you're wrong
ever since the days of Proleague he has been always in Code S with high finishes and a lot of consistent results.
What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats.
Yeah...4 straight code S makes never a constantly good player true that.. one ro32 loss eliminates u from contention like ....oh wait..stats last season..
Not just the one ro32 loss. At weekenders he's getting beaten also very early.
which ones despite this Super tournament and katowice? I just count 2
What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats.
you're wrong
ever since the days of Proleague he has been always in Code S with high finishes and a lot of consistent results.
you're just wrong
You have to realize half of these people don't even pay attention but just regurgitate stuff they read.
What do you mean? He proved that already by getting kicked out of many non-GSL tournaments very early. Now he did the same in GSL. Maru never was a constantly good player like Inno or Stats.
you're wrong
ever since the days of Proleague he has been always in Code S with high finishes and a lot of consistent results.
you're just wrong
innovation lose to freaking rail in macro game at wesg and refused to play any more of it and all-inned him, despite beating serral and maru, big oof.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day.
well
Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32
On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote: The answer is yes, instead.
You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about.
Leenock beat Maru at IEM and Inno more than once in Olimoleagues; Ragnarok beat Inno multiple times. It's hard, of course, but I don't see that as impossible since Maru's TvZ is not as untouchable as it was in 2018(well, MeomaikA).
Before yesterday, Patience lost six bo3 in a row to Maru, who in turn had a huge TvP streak in Code S; if Patience beat both Inno and Maru, I don't see why Leenock and Ragnarok shouldn't have! If you name, let's say, Armani and DRG, it's a totally different question.
Alright, Aligulac finally works. I just wanna say that according to aligulac the chance for Leenock to do what Patience did is less than 2%. No wonders we've never seen anything like that. But if you are protoss... who knows what may happen?
idk what your cherry picked aligulac stat is, but it's irrelevant
2019 IEM, Innovation and Gumiho, both top 3 TvZ players on the planet, were eliminated by Ragnarok
but i guess since ragnarok plays zerg instead of protoss, nobody cares
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day.
well
Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32
Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon
Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day.
well
Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32
Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon
Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in.
it's perfectly fair in comparison.
First of all, patience displayed some incredible micro. you can't just chalk it up to some brain dead cheese. there were points in the games where he couldve lost most of his army to mines but his micro and decisiveness got him through
Second of all, it still happened. special eliminated a top 2 protoss of 2018. reynor eliminated classic in 2018 as well
cure eliminated stats in 2019 (as well as MC, who, while not at his former level of play, is still the boss toss).
All these things happen but nobody says anything when it happens to a protoss player. if anything, all that is said is "T/Z player played in godlike mode" or "P player made mistakes"
nobody says anything when it happens in T-Z matchups either
again, Ragnarok eliminated both gumiho and innovation, we're talking TvZ savants, in the same group. that is crazier to me than patience eliminating maru and innovation (since patience is better than ragnarok and innovation's TvP is nowhere near the same level as his TvP), and yet nobody gives zerg the protoss treatment in complaining how it's broken (not saying zerg should get that treatment, just comparing responses). All we got that tournament was huge congratulations for the Zerg champion of a tournament where Inno, TY, and Gumiho were eliminated by zerg players.
All I'm saying is that patience beating maru and innovation doesnt mean anything regarding balance. It happens.
I mean the foundation of Maru's status of being a legend is farming wins off of some of the greatest protoss players of all time in the Code S playoffs
he's 1-0 vs stats, 2-0 vs classic, 1-0 vs sos, 2-0 vs zest, and then there's the 1-0 vs dear and trap.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day.
well
Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32
Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon
Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in.
it's perfectly fair in comparison.
First of all, patience displayed some incredible micro. you can't just chalk it up to some brain dead cheese. there were points in the games where he couldve lost most of his army to mines but his micro and decisiveness got him through
Second of all, it still happened. special eliminated a top 2 protoss of 2018. reynor eliminated classic in 2018 as well
cure eliminated stats in 2019 (as well as MC, who, while not at his former level of play, is still the boss toss).
All these things happen but nobody says anything when it happens to a protoss player. if anything, all that is said is "T/Z player played in godlike mode" or "P player made mistakes"
nobody says anything when it happens in T-Z matchups either
again, Ragnarok eliminated both gumiho and innovation, we're talking TvZ savants, in the same group. that is crazier to me than patience eliminating maru and innovation (since patience is better than ragnarok and innovation's TvP is nowhere near the same level as his TvP), and yet nobody gives zerg the protoss treatment in complaining how it's broken (not saying zerg should get that treatment, just comparing responses). All we got that tournament was huge congratulations for the Zerg champion of a tournament where Inno, TY, and Gumiho were eliminated by zerg players.
All I'm saying is that patience beating maru and innovation doesnt mean anything regarding balance. It happens.
I mean the foundation of Maru's status of being a legend is farming wins off of some of the greatest protoss players of all time in the Code S playoffs
he's 1-0 vs stats, 2-0 vs classic, 1-0 vs sos, 2-0 vs zest, and then there's the 1-0 vs dear and trap.
but yea losing to patience means more than this
The issue here is Major played almost on the best Korean level while Patience wasn't playing like the best Korean toss. He was good, but there wasn't anything godlike. That's why people like me were expecting him to screw the group and people like you were sceptical and now they're making him god... nah, he's not. He's good RO16 player.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day.
well
Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32
Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon
Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in.
it's perfectly fair in comparison.
First of all, patience displayed some incredible micro. you can't just chalk it up to some brain dead cheese. there were points in the games where he couldve lost most of his army to mines but his micro and decisiveness got him through
Second of all, it still happened. special eliminated a top 2 protoss of 2018. reynor eliminated classic in 2018 as well
cure eliminated stats in 2019 (as well as MC, who, while not at his former level of play, is still the boss toss).
All these things happen but nobody says anything when it happens to a protoss player. if anything, all that is said is "T/Z player played in godlike mode" or "P player made mistakes"
nobody says anything when it happens in T-Z matchups either
again, Ragnarok eliminated both gumiho and innovation, we're talking TvZ savants, in the same group. that is crazier to me than patience eliminating maru and innovation (since patience is better than ragnarok and innovation's TvP is nowhere near the same level as his TvP), and yet nobody gives zerg the protoss treatment in complaining how it's broken (not saying zerg should get that treatment, just comparing responses). All we got that tournament was huge congratulations for the Zerg champion of a tournament where Inno, TY, and Gumiho were eliminated by zerg players.
All I'm saying is that patience beating maru and innovation doesnt mean anything regarding balance. It happens.
I mean the foundation of Maru's status of being a legend is farming wins off of some of the greatest protoss players of all time in the Code S playoffs
he's 1-0 vs stats, 2-0 vs classic, 1-0 vs sos, 2-0 vs zest, and then there's the 1-0 vs dear and trap.
but yea losing to patience means more than this
The issue here is Major played almost on the best Korean level while Patience wasn't playing like the best Korean toss. He was good, but there wasn't anything godlike. That's why people like me were expecting him to screw the group and people like you were sceptical and now they're making him god... nah, he's not. He's good RO16 player.
I beg to differ. Patience was playing on a very high level for those series...a level far higher than his usual.
I am not making Patience god. Youre the one who calls players godlike when they achieve upsets (like you said special plaid godlike to beat classic). I was skeptical because patience usually doesnt play like that and he usually is the punching bag for the terran horsemen.
Patience overachieved, and brought the heat. His planning, control, and decisiveness paid off.
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day.
well
Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32
Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon
Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in.
it's perfectly fair in comparison.
First of all, patience displayed some incredible micro. you can't just chalk it up to some brain dead cheese. there were points in the games where he couldve lost most of his army to mines but his micro and decisiveness got him through
Second of all, it still happened. special eliminated a top 2 protoss of 2018. reynor eliminated classic in 2018 as well
cure eliminated stats in 2019 (as well as MC, who, while not at his former level of play, is still the boss toss).
All these things happen but nobody says anything when it happens to a protoss player. if anything, all that is said is "T/Z player played in godlike mode" or "P player made mistakes"
nobody says anything when it happens in T-Z matchups either
again, Ragnarok eliminated both gumiho and innovation, we're talking TvZ savants, in the same group. that is crazier to me than patience eliminating maru and innovation (since patience is better than ragnarok and innovation's TvP is nowhere near the same level as his TvP), and yet nobody gives zerg the protoss treatment in complaining how it's broken (not saying zerg should get that treatment, just comparing responses). All we got that tournament was huge congratulations for the Zerg champion of a tournament where Inno, TY, and Gumiho were eliminated by zerg players.
All I'm saying is that patience beating maru and innovation doesnt mean anything regarding balance. It happens.
I mean the foundation of Maru's status of being a legend is farming wins off of some of the greatest protoss players of all time in the Code S playoffs
he's 1-0 vs stats, 2-0 vs classic, 1-0 vs sos, 2-0 vs zest, and then there's the 1-0 vs dear and trap.
but yea losing to patience means more than this
The issue here is Major played almost on the best Korean level while Patience wasn't playing like the best Korean toss. He was good, but there wasn't anything godlike. That's why people like me were expecting him to screw the group and people like you were sceptical and now they're making him god... nah, he's not. He's good RO16 player.
I beg to differ. Patience was playing on a very high level for those series...a level far higher than his usual.
I am not making Patience god. Youre the one who calls players godlike when they achieve upsets (like you said special plaid godlike to beat classic). I was skeptical because patience usually doesnt play like that and he usually is the punching bag for the terran horsemen.
Patience overachieved, and brought the heat. His planning, control, and decisiveness paid off.
I think we're missing each other in terms. OK, let's step back and I will rephrase that. What I mean by "Special Godlike" usually Special plays something around 50. (where 100 is the best Terran), he played something like 90 against classic. That's what, 80 % better? usually Patience plays around 60, he played something like 80, let's be generous, 85(it wasn't near Stats/Classic which would be 100). That's 50 - 60 % increase. Notice both players in my eyes played closely to the top.
I rate the increase of the player more than the relative position so that's why we missed each other IMO. No offense to mjr. Special or Patience, maybe they would rate themselves higher(well, most definitively )
On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote: I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied.
come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day.
well
Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32
Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon
Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in.
it's perfectly fair in comparison.
First of all, patience displayed some incredible micro. you can't just chalk it up to some brain dead cheese. there were points in the games where he couldve lost most of his army to mines but his micro and decisiveness got him through
Second of all, it still happened. special eliminated a top 2 protoss of 2018. reynor eliminated classic in 2018 as well
cure eliminated stats in 2019 (as well as MC, who, while not at his former level of play, is still the boss toss).
All these things happen but nobody says anything when it happens to a protoss player. if anything, all that is said is "T/Z player played in godlike mode" or "P player made mistakes"
nobody says anything when it happens in T-Z matchups either
again, Ragnarok eliminated both gumiho and innovation, we're talking TvZ savants, in the same group. that is crazier to me than patience eliminating maru and innovation (since patience is better than ragnarok and innovation's TvP is nowhere near the same level as his TvP), and yet nobody gives zerg the protoss treatment in complaining how it's broken (not saying zerg should get that treatment, just comparing responses). All we got that tournament was huge congratulations for the Zerg champion of a tournament where Inno, TY, and Gumiho were eliminated by zerg players.
All I'm saying is that patience beating maru and innovation doesnt mean anything regarding balance. It happens.
I mean the foundation of Maru's status of being a legend is farming wins off of some of the greatest protoss players of all time in the Code S playoffs
he's 1-0 vs stats, 2-0 vs classic, 1-0 vs sos, 2-0 vs zest, and then there's the 1-0 vs dear and trap.
but yea losing to patience means more than this
The issue here is Major played almost on the best Korean level while Patience wasn't playing like the best Korean toss. He was good, but there wasn't anything godlike. That's why people like me were expecting him to screw the group and people like you were sceptical and now they're making him god... nah, he's not. He's good RO16 player.
I beg to differ. Patience was playing on a very high level for those series...a level far higher than his usual.
I am not making Patience god. Youre the one who calls players godlike when they achieve upsets (like you said special plaid godlike to beat classic). I was skeptical because patience usually doesnt play like that and he usually is the punching bag for the terran horsemen.
Patience overachieved, and brought the heat. His planning, control, and decisiveness paid off.
I think we're missing each other in terms. OK, let's step back and I will rephrase that. What I mean by "Special Godlike" usually Special plays something around 50. (where 100 is the best Terran), he played something like 90 against classic. That's what, 80 % better? usually Patience plays around 60, he played something like 80, let's be generous, 85(it wasn't near Stats/Classic which would be 100). That's 50 - 60 % increase. Notice both players in my eyes played closely to the top.
I rate the increase of the player more than the relative position so that's why we missed each other IMO. No offense to mjr. Special or Patience, maybe they would rate themselves higher(well, most definitively )
I'm even more confused now lol. First you said you cannot compare Special upsetting Classic and Patience upsetting Maru because Special played godlike ("almost on the best Korean level" using your words) and Patience merely did a cheap cheese (wasn't playing like the best korean toss, using your words).
But according to your numbers explanation, you think Special and Patience both played at around the same level (85-90, where 100 is the best terran/protoss)?
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/GSL/2019/codes2/renaissancebanner.jpg)
not again please
this isn´t BW! 
