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On April 30 2019 23:20 DrunkenSCV wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:42 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 22:33 DrunkenSCV wrote:On April 30 2019 21:45 Xain0n wrote:
The answer is yes, instead.
You can't be serious on this one. If we give one of those guys some credit and presume that he is able to win 1 match vs Inno/Maru out of 4, the chance of winning them both would still be in real life almost an equivalent to 'never happens'. I am pretty sure the actual win ratio is actually even worse than 1 to 4. Best terran players keep losing to protoss players like Parting, Patience, Trust and others. We don't see anything like that in TvZ. I don't think there can be something to argue about. Leenock beat Maru at IEM and Inno more than once in Olimoleagues; Ragnarok beat Inno multiple times. It's hard, of course, but I don't see that as impossible since Maru's TvZ is not as untouchable as it was in 2018(well, MeomaikA). Before yesterday, Patience lost six bo3 in a row to Maru, who in turn had a huge TvP streak in Code S; if Patience beat both Inno and Maru, I don't see why Leenock and Ragnarok shouldn't have! If you name, let's say, Armani and DRG, it's a totally different question. Alright, Aligulac finally works. I just wanna say that according to aligulac the chance for Leenock to do what Patience did is less than 2%. No wonders we've never seen anything like that. But if you are protoss... who knows what may happen?
idk what your cherry picked aligulac stat is, but it's irrelevant
2019 IEM, Innovation and Gumiho, both top 3 TvZ players on the planet, were eliminated by Ragnarok
but i guess since ragnarok plays zerg instead of protoss, nobody cares
only protoss can be broken
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On May 03 2019 01:09 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 20:26 Hvvacha wrote:On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote:
I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied. come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day. well Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32 Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon
Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in.
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On May 03 2019 02:32 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 01:09 BerserkSword wrote:On April 30 2019 20:26 Hvvacha wrote:On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote:
I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied. come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day. well Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32 Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in.
it's perfectly fair in comparison.
First of all, patience displayed some incredible micro. you can't just chalk it up to some brain dead cheese. there were points in the games where he couldve lost most of his army to mines but his micro and decisiveness got him through
Second of all, it still happened. special eliminated a top 2 protoss of 2018. reynor eliminated classic in 2018 as well
cure eliminated stats in 2019 (as well as MC, who, while not at his former level of play, is still the boss toss).
All these things happen but nobody says anything when it happens to a protoss player. if anything, all that is said is "T/Z player played in godlike mode" or "P player made mistakes"
nobody says anything when it happens in T-Z matchups either
again, Ragnarok eliminated both gumiho and innovation, we're talking TvZ savants, in the same group. that is crazier to me than patience eliminating maru and innovation (since patience is better than ragnarok and innovation's TvP is nowhere near the same level as his TvP), and yet nobody gives zerg the protoss treatment in complaining how it's broken (not saying zerg should get that treatment, just comparing responses). All we got that tournament was huge congratulations for the Zerg champion of a tournament where Inno, TY, and Gumiho were eliminated by zerg players.
All I'm saying is that patience beating maru and innovation doesnt mean anything regarding balance. It happens.
I mean the foundation of Maru's status of being a legend is farming wins off of some of the greatest protoss players of all time in the Code S playoffs
he's 1-0 vs stats, 2-0 vs classic, 1-0 vs sos, 2-0 vs zest, and then there's the 1-0 vs dear and trap.
but yea losing to patience means more than this
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On May 03 2019 02:45 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 02:32 deacon.frost wrote:On May 03 2019 01:09 BerserkSword wrote:On April 30 2019 20:26 Hvvacha wrote:On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote:
I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied. come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day. well Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32 Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in. it's perfectly fair in comparison. First of all, patience displayed some incredible micro. you can't just chalk it up to some brain dead cheese. there were points in the games where he couldve lost most of his army to mines but his micro and decisiveness got him through Second of all, it still happened. special eliminated a top 2 protoss of 2018. reynor eliminated classic in 2018 as well cure eliminated stats in 2019 (as well as MC, who, while not at his former level of play, is still the boss toss). All these things happen but nobody says anything when it happens to a protoss player. if anything, all that is said is "T/Z player played in godlike mode" or "P player made mistakes" nobody says anything when it happens in T-Z matchups either again, Ragnarok eliminated both gumiho and innovation, we're talking TvZ savants, in the same group. that is crazier to me than patience eliminating maru and innovation (since patience is better than ragnarok and innovation's TvP is nowhere near the same level as his TvP), and yet nobody gives zerg the protoss treatment in complaining how it's broken (not saying zerg should get that treatment, just comparing responses). All we got that tournament was huge congratulations for the Zerg champion of a tournament where Inno, TY, and Gumiho were eliminated by zerg players. All I'm saying is that patience beating maru and innovation doesnt mean anything regarding balance. It happens. I mean the foundation of Maru's status of being a legend is farming wins off of some of the greatest protoss players of all time in the Code S playoffs he's 1-0 vs stats, 2-0 vs classic, 1-0 vs sos, 2-0 vs zest, and then there's the 1-0 vs dear and trap. but yea losing to patience means more than this
The issue here is Major played almost on the best Korean level while Patience wasn't playing like the best Korean toss. He was good, but there wasn't anything godlike. That's why people like me were expecting him to screw the group and people like you were sceptical and now they're making him god... nah, he's not. He's good RO16 player.
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On May 03 2019 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 02:45 BerserkSword wrote:On May 03 2019 02:32 deacon.frost wrote:On May 03 2019 01:09 BerserkSword wrote:On April 30 2019 20:26 Hvvacha wrote:On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote:
I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied. come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day. well Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32 Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in. it's perfectly fair in comparison. First of all, patience displayed some incredible micro. you can't just chalk it up to some brain dead cheese. there were points in the games where he couldve lost most of his army to mines but his micro and decisiveness got him through Second of all, it still happened. special eliminated a top 2 protoss of 2018. reynor eliminated classic in 2018 as well cure eliminated stats in 2019 (as well as MC, who, while not at his former level of play, is still the boss toss). All these things happen but nobody says anything when it happens to a protoss player. if anything, all that is said is "T/Z player played in godlike mode" or "P player made mistakes" nobody says anything when it happens in T-Z matchups either again, Ragnarok eliminated both gumiho and innovation, we're talking TvZ savants, in the same group. that is crazier to me than patience eliminating maru and innovation (since patience is better than ragnarok and innovation's TvP is nowhere near the same level as his TvP), and yet nobody gives zerg the protoss treatment in complaining how it's broken (not saying zerg should get that treatment, just comparing responses). All we got that tournament was huge congratulations for the Zerg champion of a tournament where Inno, TY, and Gumiho were eliminated by zerg players. All I'm saying is that patience beating maru and innovation doesnt mean anything regarding balance. It happens. I mean the foundation of Maru's status of being a legend is farming wins off of some of the greatest protoss players of all time in the Code S playoffs he's 1-0 vs stats, 2-0 vs classic, 1-0 vs sos, 2-0 vs zest, and then there's the 1-0 vs dear and trap. but yea losing to patience means more than this The issue here is Major played almost on the best Korean level while Patience wasn't playing like the best Korean toss. He was good, but there wasn't anything godlike. That's why people like me were expecting him to screw the group and people like you were sceptical and now they're making him god... nah, he's not. He's good RO16 player.
I beg to differ. Patience was playing on a very high level for those series...a level far higher than his usual.
I am not making Patience god. Youre the one who calls players godlike when they achieve upsets (like you said special plaid godlike to beat classic). I was skeptical because patience usually doesnt play like that and he usually is the punching bag for the terran horsemen.
Patience overachieved, and brought the heat. His planning, control, and decisiveness paid off.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On May 03 2019 03:55 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:On May 03 2019 02:45 BerserkSword wrote:On May 03 2019 02:32 deacon.frost wrote:On May 03 2019 01:09 BerserkSword wrote:On April 30 2019 20:26 Hvvacha wrote:On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote:
I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied. come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day. well Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32 Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in. it's perfectly fair in comparison. First of all, patience displayed some incredible micro. you can't just chalk it up to some brain dead cheese. there were points in the games where he couldve lost most of his army to mines but his micro and decisiveness got him through Second of all, it still happened. special eliminated a top 2 protoss of 2018. reynor eliminated classic in 2018 as well cure eliminated stats in 2019 (as well as MC, who, while not at his former level of play, is still the boss toss). All these things happen but nobody says anything when it happens to a protoss player. if anything, all that is said is "T/Z player played in godlike mode" or "P player made mistakes" nobody says anything when it happens in T-Z matchups either again, Ragnarok eliminated both gumiho and innovation, we're talking TvZ savants, in the same group. that is crazier to me than patience eliminating maru and innovation (since patience is better than ragnarok and innovation's TvP is nowhere near the same level as his TvP), and yet nobody gives zerg the protoss treatment in complaining how it's broken (not saying zerg should get that treatment, just comparing responses). All we got that tournament was huge congratulations for the Zerg champion of a tournament where Inno, TY, and Gumiho were eliminated by zerg players. All I'm saying is that patience beating maru and innovation doesnt mean anything regarding balance. It happens. I mean the foundation of Maru's status of being a legend is farming wins off of some of the greatest protoss players of all time in the Code S playoffs he's 1-0 vs stats, 2-0 vs classic, 1-0 vs sos, 2-0 vs zest, and then there's the 1-0 vs dear and trap. but yea losing to patience means more than this The issue here is Major played almost on the best Korean level while Patience wasn't playing like the best Korean toss. He was good, but there wasn't anything godlike. That's why people like me were expecting him to screw the group and people like you were sceptical and now they're making him god... nah, he's not. He's good RO16 player. I beg to differ. Patience was playing on a very high level for those series...a level far higher than his usual. I am not making Patience god. Youre the one who calls players godlike when they achieve upsets (like you said special plaid godlike to beat classic). I was skeptical because patience usually doesnt play like that and he usually is the punching bag for the terran horsemen. Patience overachieved, and brought the heat. His planning, control, and decisiveness paid off.
I think we're missing each other in terms. OK, let's step back and I will rephrase that.
What I mean by "Special Godlike"
usually Special plays something around 50. (where 100 is the best Terran), he played something like 90 against classic. That's what, 80 % better?
usually Patience plays around 60, he played something like 80, let's be generous, 85(it wasn't near Stats/Classic which would be 100). That's 50 - 60 % increase.
Notice both players in my eyes played closely to the top.
I rate the increase of the player more than the relative position so that's why we missed each other IMO. No offense to mjr. Special or Patience, maybe they would rate themselves higher(well, most definitively  )
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On May 03 2019 07:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2019 03:55 BerserkSword wrote:On May 03 2019 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:On May 03 2019 02:45 BerserkSword wrote:On May 03 2019 02:32 deacon.frost wrote:On May 03 2019 01:09 BerserkSword wrote:On April 30 2019 20:26 Hvvacha wrote:On April 30 2019 11:43 Solar424 wrote:
I love the mentality of Terran players. Maru is like their infallible god and if he loses it must be because of balance, because he can never have an off day or be blindsided by a new strategy or have tons of replays to be studied. come back when terrans like alive, keen or cure will beat two top protosses same day. well Cure eliminated stats (and MC lol) 2019 GSL Code S1 in Ro.32 Special eliminated Classic from 2018 blizzcon Special was playing in Godlike mode though, not fair comparison to hurpy durpy durp, I rolled 28 and my DM table says, it's adept all in. it's perfectly fair in comparison. First of all, patience displayed some incredible micro. you can't just chalk it up to some brain dead cheese. there were points in the games where he couldve lost most of his army to mines but his micro and decisiveness got him through Second of all, it still happened. special eliminated a top 2 protoss of 2018. reynor eliminated classic in 2018 as well cure eliminated stats in 2019 (as well as MC, who, while not at his former level of play, is still the boss toss). All these things happen but nobody says anything when it happens to a protoss player. if anything, all that is said is "T/Z player played in godlike mode" or "P player made mistakes" nobody says anything when it happens in T-Z matchups either again, Ragnarok eliminated both gumiho and innovation, we're talking TvZ savants, in the same group. that is crazier to me than patience eliminating maru and innovation (since patience is better than ragnarok and innovation's TvP is nowhere near the same level as his TvP), and yet nobody gives zerg the protoss treatment in complaining how it's broken (not saying zerg should get that treatment, just comparing responses). All we got that tournament was huge congratulations for the Zerg champion of a tournament where Inno, TY, and Gumiho were eliminated by zerg players. All I'm saying is that patience beating maru and innovation doesnt mean anything regarding balance. It happens. I mean the foundation of Maru's status of being a legend is farming wins off of some of the greatest protoss players of all time in the Code S playoffs he's 1-0 vs stats, 2-0 vs classic, 1-0 vs sos, 2-0 vs zest, and then there's the 1-0 vs dear and trap. but yea losing to patience means more than this The issue here is Major played almost on the best Korean level while Patience wasn't playing like the best Korean toss. He was good, but there wasn't anything godlike. That's why people like me were expecting him to screw the group and people like you were sceptical and now they're making him god... nah, he's not. He's good RO16 player. I beg to differ. Patience was playing on a very high level for those series...a level far higher than his usual. I am not making Patience god. Youre the one who calls players godlike when they achieve upsets (like you said special plaid godlike to beat classic). I was skeptical because patience usually doesnt play like that and he usually is the punching bag for the terran horsemen. Patience overachieved, and brought the heat. His planning, control, and decisiveness paid off. I think we're missing each other in terms. OK, let's step back and I will rephrase that. What I mean by "Special Godlike" usually Special plays something around 50. (where 100 is the best Terran), he played something like 90 against classic. That's what, 80 % better? usually Patience plays around 60, he played something like 80, let's be generous, 85(it wasn't near Stats/Classic which would be 100). That's 50 - 60 % increase. Notice both players in my eyes played closely to the top. I rate the increase of the player more than the relative position so that's why we missed each other IMO. No offense to mjr. Special or Patience, maybe they would rate themselves higher(well, most definitively )
I'm even more confused now lol. First you said you cannot compare Special upsetting Classic and Patience upsetting Maru because Special played godlike ("almost on the best Korean level" using your words) and Patience merely did a cheap cheese (wasn't playing like the best korean toss, using your words).
But according to your numbers explanation, you think Special and Patience both played at around the same level (85-90, where 100 is the best terran/protoss)?
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EPT
