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On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Macsed's response:
"说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了"
My translation:
"The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." |
Canada8989 Posts
On March 13 2019 12:59 yht9657 wrote:
Mad gambler accusing progamer of matchfixing based on zero credible evidence, I guess that's just how esports work these days.
Ya it's not like we had dozens of match fixing/betting observer case with abnormal betting line movement in SC2 across the years.
I mean what the hell is he suppose to do, write to the chinese police to warn them about a possible match fixing in a inconsequential B-tiers-esport match?
At least this way the chinese scene and the organizor will be able to look into this and if they find something, contact Blizz so he's banned and if there's nothing there's nothing.
Edit: Didn't see the WESG ref post, nice to know they are looking into, with a bit of luck it's just coincidences.
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On March 13 2019 13:08 VanCaspel wrote:
Hey everyone, WESG admin here. I'm on-site as one of the two non-Chinese referees, and by sheer coincidence I was the one to sit right behind MacSed and Seventy91 as they played their match (they sit next to each other). I'm not here to confirm or deny any suspicions, but I think it would be valuable if I offered my perspective and a bit of info in as neutral a way as I can.
- The second game in the series was won by Seventy91. I alternated looking at both players' screens during that game, and did not notice them making any errors on purpose. Seventy91 was certainly trying very hard and got frustrated if he made a misclick. MacSed looked like he did in his previous games (I'd been a ref for another of his matches before this one): focused, looking at the screen and with pro-level APM. Again: this does not prove or disprove anything, but it's not like MacSed was afk or something, or explicitly trolling. He looked serious.
- The game was very scrappy and unusual. I haven't looked at the replay, so this is from memory from what I saw yesterday. Seventy91 went for a Zealot rush with 4 (I think?) gateways, one of which was in his main (something he later told me he did by accident, and which he said helped him win the game) and three were proxied near MacSed's base. MacSed, on the other hand, went for a cannon rush. He was unable to keep Seventy91's Zealots out of his base, and his cannon rush did not progress fast enough so he ran out of money to continue and lost the game.
- I remember a moment where MacSed lost two of his probes doing the cannon rush in Seventy91's base to a Zealot. I don't know if those were all of his probes. I was looking at Seventy91's screen at that moment and remember thinking at that time that that was a blunder by MacSed. I do not know where MacSed was looking at that moment, I didn't see his screen then. The replay will probably help with this. I don't remember having any other thoughts regarding blunders or mistakes on MacSed's end during the game.
- After game two, and as we quickly went into the third game, I remember seeing that MacSed chatted briefly with someone in the StarCraft client. They were two or three brief lines, and the other person responded quickly. I don't read Chinese so I can't say what was said, but I do know that there were at least one (but possibly two) instances of censorship in his already short messages (where the client shows !@% rather than the word you typed). My interpretation of that was that MacSed was frustrated / surprised and said something that included curse words, along the lines of 'what is this shit'.
- I have collected the replays for this match, they are looked at by people from StarLadder. I also heard (but cannot yet confirm) that the Chinese are also looking into it. Once I get to the venue today I will ask around to see who is working on this, and whether MacSed is being approached or not. I do know that one of the main event organisers (great guy, fan of StarCraft), is concerned about the issue and he was one of the people to ask me to look at this topic.
This is all the relevant info I can think of right now. If anyone has any specific questions let me know. I have to say though that I'm having a hard time reaching TeamLiquid.net and this topic in particular through the Great Firewall without VPN (which I can't get working on my laptop), so I don't think I'll be able to closely follow this topic. I'll try to look here on my phone throughout the day, but I may not be responding for a while.
Thanks for the information, it's great to hear that the organizers are taking this seriously but also not jumping to conclusions. Best of luck getting to the bottom of this, one way or another.
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Interesting, wouldn't be surprised really.
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On March 13 2019 11:20 BretZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 11:07 11cc wrote:
If this game was presented as the only evidence I would just laugh. Good players can play bad sometimes. What about this evidence about a abnormally big bet made on this match, is that credible? not hitting the cancel on a cannon when there's nothing else taking his attention? a wall off that could have been just the gateway? but instead creates an extra weak point with a cannon instead of building it behind the wall? not finishing off the zealot after probe drilling, instead of giving free hits away? not building a cannon even after all of this? Not sending probes to his cannons on the other side of the map? Even the cannon rush, he reveals BOTH probes before Seventy even scouts the buildings. There is bad day for players, and there is intentionally messing up. This isn't just bad play. On top of all of this, MacSed, as a professional, has to know that if he plays a regular game, he wins, no question. Cheesing often comes from players who are worse trying to catch a better opponent off guard.
Uhhhhh.....
Maru?
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On March 13 2019 13:08 VanCaspel wrote:
Hey everyone, WESG admin here. I'm on-site as one of the two non-Chinese referees, and by sheer coincidence I was the one to sit right behind MacSed and Seventy91 as they played their match (they sit next to each other). I'm not here to confirm or deny any suspicions, but I think it would be valuable if I offered my perspective and a bit of info in as neutral a way as I can.
- The second game in the series was won by Seventy91. I alternated looking at both players' screens during that game, and did not notice them making any errors on purpose. Seventy91 was certainly trying very hard and got frustrated if he made a misclick. MacSed looked like he did in his previous games (I'd been a ref for another of his matches before this one): focused, looking at the screen and with pro-level APM. Again: this does not prove or disprove anything, but it's not like MacSed was afk or something, or explicitly trolling. He looked serious.
- The game was very scrappy and unusual. I haven't looked at the replay, so this is from memory from what I saw yesterday. Seventy91 went for a Zealot rush with 4 (I think?) gateways, one of which was in his main (something he later told me he did by accident, and which he said helped him win the game) and three were proxied near MacSed's base. MacSed, on the other hand, went for a cannon rush. He was unable to keep Seventy91's Zealots out of his base, and his cannon rush did not progress fast enough so he ran out of money to continue and lost the game.
- I remember a moment where MacSed lost two of his probes doing the cannon rush in Seventy91's base to a Zealot. I don't know if those were all of his probes. I was looking at Seventy91's screen at that moment and remember thinking at that time that that was a blunder by MacSed. I do not know where MacSed was looking at that moment, I didn't see his screen then. The replay will probably help with this. I don't remember having any other thoughts regarding blunders or mistakes on MacSed's end during the game.
- After game two, and as we quickly went into the third game, I remember seeing that MacSed chatted briefly with someone in the StarCraft client. They were two or three brief lines, and the other person responded quickly. I don't read Chinese so I can't say what was said, but I do know that there were at least one (but possibly two) instances of censorship in his already short messages (where the client shows !@% rather than the word you typed). My interpretation of that was that MacSed was frustrated / surprised and said something that included curse words, along the lines of 'what is this shit'.
- I have collected the replays for this match, they are looked at by people from StarLadder. I also heard (but cannot yet confirm) that the Chinese are also looking into it. Once I get to the venue today I will ask around to see who is working on this, and whether MacSed is being approached or not. I do know that one of the main event organisers (great guy, fan of StarCraft), is concerned about the issue and he was one of the people to ask me to look at this topic.
This is all the relevant info I can think of right now. If anyone has any specific questions let me know. I have to say though that I'm having a hard time reaching TeamLiquid.net and this topic in particular through the Great Firewall without VPN (which I can't get working on my laptop), so I don't think I'll be able to closely follow this topic. I'll try to look here on my phone throughout the day, but I may not be responding for a while.
Thank you for the info. It definitely seems suspicious to me but I hope it turns out that there was no match fixing.
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macsed is a decent guy with good reputation, he just spent too much time on CS:GO and Dota2 Autochess these days.
6000+MMR ......
haha that's history
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On March 13 2019 13:55 Mountain_Lee wrote:
macsed is a decent guy with good reputation, he just spent too much time on CS:GO and Dota2 Autochess these days.
6000+MMR ......
haha that's history
Yeah, someone just happened to bet few thousand bucks on unknown amatuer player, against well established professional player. Must be a real coincidence.
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As wesg admin has just responded, let's just wait for official report. no need to start a witch hunt.
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same thing every time, I have trouble understanding why people discard the betting patterns... do they really think one guy bet thousands of dollars on a long shot and happened to get lucky?
it's not like millions of people are betting on these games...
out of an already small pool of betters a smaller group bet a LOT of money on Seventy91 taking a map off Macsed. No one else, just Macsed. people see that as a coincidence?
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United States33570 Posts
I emailed Pinnacle regarding the bet, and I was told "Please be advised that as per investigation department, we did not find anything suspicious on the said match." in response.
Given that there have been past suspicious line-movements that warranted cancellation from Pinnacle, and others that were allowed to stand, I can't say it sheds much more light on the situation.
On March 13 2019 14:40 Popkiller wrote:
same thing every time, I have trouble understanding why people discard the betting patterns... do they really think one guy bet thousands of dollars on a long shot and happened to get lucky?
I think many people accept betting lines as circumstantial evidence, but it's a tough boundary to cross in terms of calling it CONCLUSIVE evidence. You can't say it's just because of lack of knowledge regarding how gambling works—fans would be justified in wanting the highest threshold of proof in what is effectively StarCraft esports' only capital crime.
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On March 13 2019 14:49 Waxangel wrote:I emailed Pinnacle regarding the bet, and I was told "Please be advised that as per investigation department, we did not find anything suspicious on the said match." in response. Given that there have been past suspicious line-movements that warranted cancellation from Pinnacle, and others that were allowed to stand, I can't say it sheds much more light on the situation. Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 14:40 Popkiller wrote:
same thing every time, I have trouble understanding why people discard the betting patterns... do they really think one guy bet thousands of dollars on a long shot and happened to get lucky?
I think many people accept betting lines as circumstantial evidence, but it's a tough boundary to cross in terms of calling it CONCLUSIVE evidence. You can't say it's just because it's because of lack of knowledge regarding how gambling works—fans would be justified in wanting the highest threshold of proof in what is effectively StarCraft esports' only capital crime.
Waxangel, can you edit the OP's post to mention this? People should know about all the evidence, and not just the OP's point of view. Otherwise, it becomes a smear campaign against MacSed.
I'm not saying things like this shouldn't be investigated. They should. But if you got a response from Pinnacle, then this is critical information that everybody needs to know and it shouldn't be buried on the 5th page of this thread.
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United States33570 Posts
On March 13 2019 15:10 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 14:49 Waxangel wrote:I emailed Pinnacle regarding the bet, and I was told "Please be advised that as per investigation department, we did not find anything suspicious on the said match." in response. Given that there have been past suspicious line-movements that warranted cancellation from Pinnacle, and others that were allowed to stand, I can't say it sheds much more light on the situation. On March 13 2019 14:40 Popkiller wrote:
same thing every time, I have trouble understanding why people discard the betting patterns... do they really think one guy bet thousands of dollars on a long shot and happened to get lucky?
I think many people accept betting lines as circumstantial evidence, but it's a tough boundary to cross in terms of calling it CONCLUSIVE evidence. You can't say it's just because it's because of lack of knowledge regarding how gambling works—fans would be justified in wanting the highest threshold of proof in what is effectively StarCraft esports' only capital crime. Waxangel, can you edit the OP's post to mention this? People should know about all the evidence, and not just the OP's point of view. Otherwise, it becomes a smear campaign against MacSed. I'm not saying things like this shouldn't be investigated. They should. But if you got a response from Pinnacle, then this is critical information that everybody needs to know and it shouldn't be buried on the 5th page of this thread.
Well, in context of previous suspicious betting lines and the mixed response from betting sites, I don't think this piece of information is substantive (I was checking mostly to see if the OP's claim was TOTALLY bogus). Without context, this kind of information could read as a defense of MacSed, when it really doesn't support any side of the argument. Stay tuned for a more contextualized master post from TL, depending on how this issue develops.
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to the people implying that Starcraft has had matchfixers from various countries before, I want to remind you all of something else: every eSports title has had matchfixers, perhaps from every major region on the planet. I've seen this happen with...
League of Legends (HKeSports, AhQ Korea)
CS:GO (iBuyPower to name the tip of the iceberg)
DoTA 2 (sQreen's Squad)
Hearthstone: https://www.pcgamer.com/report-claims-pervasive-match-fixing-in-chinas-pro-hearthstone-scene/
Oh, and then we have Starcraft.
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6k mmr protoss losing 2 cannon rush probes to a zealot. I mean.. Was he afk or what?
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a persson with ZERO evidence blames a player for matchfixing just cause he had a good cheese or defended a good cheese ?
this whole topic is a shame
NOT BLAME PEOPLE WITHOUT EVIDENCE
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@Waxangel and Pinnacle , these answers by Pinnacle are normal, they rarely cancell even suspicious CS matchfix with odds dropping from 5 to 1.1 . Here odds were "about normal" 2-0 of Macsed moving around 1.5-2.5 is "okay". Its not like Macsed did drop whole series with odds falling from 7 to 1.5 on Seventy's win. For pinnacle these lines are okay. But for any normal person they are not.
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This is extremely suspicious and all the 1-3 post accounts dismissing it completely is even more suspicious xD they offer no good counter arguments and reinforces the sentiment that the matchfixers are making throw away accounts. I don't think people realize what a difference of 2k MMR means for players. It's like if the diamond guy had lost (and looked really stupid doing it) to a low silver player. At least that's my opinion.
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On March 13 2019 15:54 Drake wrote:
a persson with ZERO evidence blames a player for matchfixing just cause he had a good cheese or defended a good cheese ?
this whole topic is a shame
NOT BLAME PEOPLE WITHOUT EVIDENCE
There's evidence in the OP. You should probably (re-)read the OP.
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Unfortunately not the first and won't be the last.
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On March 13 2019 14:49 Waxangel wrote:I emailed Pinnacle regarding the bet, and I was told "Please be advised that as per investigation department, we did not find anything suspicious on the said match." in response. Given that there have been past suspicious line-movements that warranted cancellation from Pinnacle, and others that were allowed to stand, I can't say it sheds much more light on the situation. Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 14:40 Popkiller wrote:
same thing every time, I have trouble understanding why people discard the betting patterns... do they really think one guy bet thousands of dollars on a long shot and happened to get lucky?
I think many people accept betting lines as circumstantial evidence, but it's a tough boundary to cross in terms of calling it CONCLUSIVE evidence. You can't say it's just because of lack of knowledge regarding how gambling works—fans would be justified in wanting the highest threshold of proof in what is effectively StarCraft esports' only capital crime.
Contacting pinnacle, who have access to the full betting information, should have been the first thing that should have been done in this situation but didn't. Maybe because their answer wouldn't fit his argument?
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EPT
