EPTCommunity Update - March 12, 2019 - Page 5
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This thread is starting to get out of hand. From this point on, if you are going to post statistics and/or data as a way to back up your statements about racial imbalances, then please post the sources as well. | ||
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Myosotis
8 Posts
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Athenau
570 Posts
On March 14 2019 09:44 BerserkSword wrote: if high templars are trying to feedback ravens, it's fewer storms a terran player has to worry about also, in a real engagement, the raven has the advantage as it's faster and aam and interference matrix have longer range than feedback it gets to dictate the battle. not to mention the fact that high templars might be hiding in prisms or at the back of armies for protection the existence of high templars is no excuse not to abuse a powerful spell caster like the raven Interference matrix and feedback both have nine range. | ||
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RandomPlayer416
84 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On March 14 2019 11:51 Athenau wrote: Interference matrix and feedback both have nine range. yes but AAM has 10 the point i was making is that due to the mobility of the raven and the lack strong protoss anti air, combined with the much more vulnerable high templar (slow, low health ground unit, often needs protection in prism, back of army), it is the raven that dictates the interactions. High templars cannot simply go raven hunting due to the nature of this dynamic - they would be baited/exposed and destroyed, and wasting energy on trying to feedback ravens would leave the gateway units at risk of being melted by stim bio The bottom line is that ravens are more than viable in TvP - they are phenomenal and feedback wont give the Raven user any nightmares | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On March 14 2019 13:06 BerserkSword wrote: yes but AAM has 10 the point i was making is that due to the mobility of the raven and the lack strong protoss anti air, combined with the much more vulnerable high templar (slow, low health ground unit, often needs protection in prism, back of army), it is the raven that dictates the interactions. High templars cannot simply go raven hunting due to the nature of this dynamic - they would be baited/exposed and destroyed, and wasting energy on trying to feedback ravens would leave the gateway units at risk of being melted by stim bio The bottom line is that ravens are more than viable in TvP - they are phenomenal and feedback wont give the Raven user any nightmares What I've seen Stats do is rush out a single HT after going colossus. No storm or anything, just in order to zone out a raven during Terran's initial stim push. When the fight comes, gateway units in front, HT in the middle, colossus in back. IM has 9 range. Colossus has 9 range. Feedback has 9 range. Do the math. Terran can disable the HT, but it's a projectile and leaves more than enough time to get a feedback off. And HT is not the threat, it just zones out the raven so the colossus can go to town on the bio. Ravens can be very good under some circumstances, but they can also be hard countered. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On March 14 2019 13:15 pvsnp wrote: What I've seen Stats do is rush out a single HT after going colossus. No storm or anything, just in order to zone out a raven during Terran's initial stim push. When the fight comes, gateway units in front, HT in the middle, colossus in back. IM has 9 range. Colossus has 9 range. Feedback has 9 range. Do the math. Terran can disable the HT, but it's a projectile and leaves more than enough time to get a feedback off. And HT is not the threat, it just zones out the raven so the colossus can go to town on the bio. Ravens can be very good under some circumstances, but they can also be hard countered. last time I checked, the raven's interference matrix very, very, very slightly out-ranges feedback, despite the fact that they have the same range stats. it's extremely difficult to exploit the range advantage in a real game, and it's a hair's difference, but it's there. you can cast interference matrix and queue the raven to immediately turn around and avoid the feedback. doesn't really work with multiple ravens / multiple HT, but it's doable in a 1v1 stand-off unless, of course, there was some bug in the unit tester which messed with the range stats during my testing | ||
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skdsk
138 Posts
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I wasbanned fromthis
113 Posts
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On March 14 2019 13:15 pvsnp wrote: What I've seen Stats do is rush out a single HT after going colossus. No storm or anything, just in order to zone out a raven during Terran's initial stim push. When the fight comes, gateway units in front, HT in the middle, colossus in back. IM has 9 range. Colossus has 9 range. Feedback has 9 range. Do the math. Terran can disable the HT, but it's a projectile and leaves more than enough time to get a feedback off. And HT is not the threat, it just zones out the raven so the colossus can go to town on the bio. Ravens can be very good under some circumstances, but they can also be hard countered. First of all, we both know that starcraft isnt a game that is determined on paper "math" Stats is close to the best player on the planet right now and bar none the best Protoss on the planet. I guess Stats can get away with that nuance to fend off/slow down the stim push. Same way some of the best protosses in the world were helpless against Maru's Raven timings last year and even this year. the initial stim push doesnt always even have to be that reliant on ravens either, since marine tank alone has the potential to steamroll protoss at that point When it comes to other fights, the factors Ive described come into play. You want to talk about hard counter - Terran has an answer for everything. It's just up to the Terran player to produce the correct composition. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On March 14 2019 15:15 skdsk wrote: Its honestly really strange how blizzard gives toss like 3 mass aoe killing options in tvp all of them can wipe your army in 1-2 shots, yet terran only really has widow mine, which is situational and nowhere on the same power as protoss options, they have ghost, but ghost doesnt even kill the targets he aoes. So protoss is like you have liberators ghost raven wm you only need to use them all and its all ok!. Try to use 4 caster and micro your bio ball at same time, will see how it goes to you.. i specifically try to macro in every tvp, but honestly i lose pretty much every game... Without those AOE, Protoss would be complete trash. Protoss AOE is their equalizer. If Terran, with the pound for pound most efficient units in the game, gets Protoss tier AOE, they become broken - See: old Raven Widow mines are great too, I dont know what youre talking about. They almost always pay for themselves at the very least. And you forgot the siege tank What 4 casters are you talking about....that sounds more like the Protoss army which is so reliant on spells/abilities You micro the bio, kite them with the support of your widow mine/liberator push, and the only casters you have are ghosts for high templar and ravens for disruptor/colossus, generally speaking | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On March 14 2019 12:13 RandomPlayer416 wrote: Most protoss players in diamond dont even upgrade their units anyways. . . That is simply false. The 2019 playerbase on ladder is mainly hardcore players, the people who played sc2 as one if a dozen other games per month left years ago. Woth no upgrades, you will get demolished most of the time even in platinum. | ||
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skdsk
138 Posts
On March 14 2019 16:56 BerserkSword wrote: Without those AOE, Protoss would be complete trash. Protoss AOE is their equalizer. If Terran, with the pound for pound most efficient units in the game, gets Protoss tier AOE, they become broken - See: old Raven Widow mines are great too, I dont know what youre talking about. They almost always pay for themselves at the very least. And you forgot the siege tank What 4 casters are you talking about....that sounds more like the Protoss army which is so reliant on spells/abilities You micro the bio, kite them with the support of your widow mine/liberator push, and the only casters you have are ghosts for high templar and ravens for disruptor/colossus, generally speaking Pretty much every terran unit have ability and you need to use it correctly or the unit becomes useless, compare lets say protos death ball of zealot stalker archon colosus ht and terran mmm raven wm liberator ghost. All protoss need to do is drop storms, and micro his units, terran needs to use emp, constantly siege unsiege liberator and widow mines, micro his bio like crazy, use raven spells, so terran needs to use 2-3times more skills then protoss for even battle... Also another problem is Protoss dont have to "answer" to any unit terran makes, for example if protoss makes ht, terran needs to make ghosts or he gets rekt, if protoss makes colosus terran needs vikings or libs with range. Protoss doesnt need to make anything to answer to terran units all his units already counters everything terrans make. User was warned for this post. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On March 14 2019 19:36 skdsk wrote: Pretty much every terran unit have ability and you need to use it correctly or the unit becomes useless, compare lets say protos death ball of zealot stalker archon colosus ht and terran mmm raven wm liberator ghost. All protoss need to do is drop storms, and micro his units, terran needs to use emp, constantly siege unsiege liberator and widow mines, micro his bio like crazy, use raven spells, so terran needs to use 2-3times more skills then protoss for even battle... Also another problem is Protoss dont have to "answer" to any unit terran makes, for example if protoss makes ht, terran needs to make ghosts or he gets rekt, if protoss makes colosus terran needs vikings or libs with range. Protoss doesnt need to make anything to answer to terran units all his units already counters everything terrans make. This so much. I even had Protoss opponents that did not even scout I was going mech, made their normal comp, a-moved over my army and messaged me after the game "I had no idea you were using mech". Something is seriously wrong with TvP. Protoss never have to adapt. If you make Tanks their normal mass Zealots works great. If you make Liberators, they always have some Tempest anyway. If you make BC stalkers work just fine, if not just add a few Tempest. Meanwhile trying to mech vs Protoss is hell. If you get the ratio between anti-ground and anti-air units slightly wrong, it is GG. Terran needs to adept perfectly to Protoss openers, unit comp, expansion speed etc. What do Protoss need to adjust? Maybe add a few shield batteries when you are army is moving toward their base. Also, why did Protoss even get the Disruptor? Why give the death ball race the anti-death ball tool? Why give them something that outranges tanks even though Protoss have plenty of strong answers already? Something is really wrong with TvP that goes way beyond win rates. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On March 14 2019 19:36 skdsk wrote: Pretty much every terran unit have ability and you need to use it correctly or the unit becomes useless, compare lets say protos death ball of zealot stalker archon colosus ht and terran mmm raven wm liberator ghost. All protoss need to do is drop storms, and micro his units, terran needs to use emp, constantly siege unsiege liberator and widow mines, micro his bio like crazy, use raven spells, so terran needs to use 2-3times more skills then protoss for even battle... Also another problem is Protoss dont have to "answer" to any unit terran makes, for example if protoss makes ht, terran needs to make ghosts or he gets rekt, if protoss makes colosus terran needs vikings or libs with range. Protoss doesnt need to make anything to answer to terran units all his units already counters everything terrans make. lol not sure if srs i switched from protoss main to terran main because the protoss army is too much of a hassle to control. the point youre missing is that if storm (or whatever AOE youre relying on) whiffs, youre in pretty deep shit. your expensive, important units just melt. Terran has superb entrenched positioning to fall back to, with excellent AI | ||
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skdsk
138 Posts
On March 14 2019 20:07 MockHamill wrote: This so much. I even had Protoss opponents that did not even scout I was going mech, made their normal comp, a-moved over my army and messaged me after the game "I had no idea you were using mech". Something is seriously wrong with TvP. Protoss never have to adapt. If you make Tanks their normal mass Zealots works great. If you make Liberators, they always have some Tempest anyway. If you make BC stalkers work just fine, if not just add a few Tempest. Meanwhile trying to mech vs Protoss is hell. If you get the ratio between anti-ground and anti-air units slightly wrong, it is GG. Terran needs to adept perfectly to Protoss openers, unit comp, expansion speed etc. What do Protoss need to adjust? Maybe add a few shield batteries when you are army is moving toward their base. Also, why did Protoss even get the Disruptor? Why give the death ball race the anti-death ball tool? Why give them something that outranges tanks even though Protoss have plenty of strong answers already? Something is really wrong with TvP that goes way beyond win rates. protoss will still argue that even though he has 3 individual skills that can insta wipe terran army, its balanced cuz terran have widow mines. I dont know why they nerfed every terran aoe (mines crazily nerfed, raven aoe removed), yet buffed protoss aoe and even added more, now colosus 2shots marines which is ridiculous, since only unit you are left to mass is marauder... which isnt even as good as its use to be since both stalker and zealot recieved massive buffs. If they dont want to buff ravens or wmines, then only option is to somehow buff siegetanks, its staple terran unit used in both tvz and tvt as ground control, yet protoss can just walk all over it. Make marine tank viable army in tvp in macro game and then we can talk about further balance... | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
Turns out that lategame TvP is not as bad as many terran players claim it is. skyterran + ghost just shits on protoss late game P.S. Maru won game 1 with raven, and game 3 on widow mine spam | ||
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skdsk
138 Posts
On March 14 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: Maru just eviscerated Neeb, probably the second best late game protoss player in the world, in late game TvP despite neeb having major economic advantage as well as all 3 forms of AOE Turns out that lategame TvP is not as bad as many terran players claim it is. skyterran + ghost just shits on protoss late game P.S. Maru won game 1 with raven, and game 3 on widow mine spam Ok so 3 korean terrans can compete because they have insane skill, i get it if you can control perfectly ghost raven mines bio ball liberator the mu is balanced. There is a reason there is literally almost no non-korean terrans in top100 (according aligulac), while there is bunch of zerg and protoss players... | ||
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Creager
Germany1918 Posts
On March 14 2019 17:27 opisska wrote: That is simply false. The 2019 playerbase on ladder is mainly hardcore players, the people who played sc2 as one if a dozen other games per month left years ago. Woth no upgrades, you will get demolished most of the time even in platinum. Well, I don't play nearly as often as I used to and although my sharpness has clearly deteriorated I don't find the competition to be as tough as it has been years ago. The 'new' league percentages are probably warping my perception, since diamond was actually a rank you had to 'work' for, nowadays dia 3/2 feels like platinum. And considering a new influx on people since SC2 went f2p I'd say that the average player level isn't as good as you think it is, simply because a lot of former hardcore players have either quit the game or hop on/off on a regular basis. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On March 14 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: Maru just eviscerated Neeb, probably the second best late game protoss player in the world, in late game TvP despite neeb having major economic advantage as well as all 3 forms of AOE Turns out that lategame TvP is not as bad as many terran players claim it is. skyterran + ghost just shits on protoss late game P.S. Maru won game 1 with raven, and game 3 on widow mine spam If anything that game just proofs that lategame TvP is broken. Maru had to play absolutely perfectly to ever stand a chance to win, while Neeb made so many mistakes and still stayed in the game for so long. (the eco advantage you mentioned is not just random, every toss has eco advantage if he makes it into lategame and that is the problem!) It just wasnt Neebs day, he played poorly overall. On the other hand look at Rail vs Inno. Similar game, but Inno made 1 big mistake with moving his units too far out and his micro and positioning wasnt nearly as perfect as Marus, and he got completely crushed. | ||
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