This thread is starting to get out of hand. From this point on, if you are going to post statistics and/or data as a way to back up your statements about racial imbalances, then please post the sources as well.
On March 14 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: Maru just eviscerated Neeb, probably the second best late game protoss player in the world, in late game TvP despite neeb having major economic advantage as well as all 3 forms of AOE
Turns out that lategame TvP is not as bad as many terran players claim it is. skyterran + ghost just shits on protoss late game
P.S. Maru won game 1 with raven, and game 3 on widow mine spam
Lol this guy.
Defending 3 time code S champ beats Foreign Protoss = balanced matchup. Wait what happened at IEM again?? Same foreigner crushed Maru?? Imbalanced again? Oh wait thats not how any of this works though.
Same guy who literally thinks he knows more about what unit compositions are good than the pro players whose livlihoods depend on it.
Should have probably stopped reading at: "I switched to Terran because Protoss unit control is harder "
Honestly,Terran was so strong for so long its almost funny how much they cry now that the match up is pretty balanced. From what I've seen the larger issue is that Zerg is doing really well right now in all match ups. I think overall there seems to be a decent balance now but the upgrade nerf should further hone in the balance to TvP so that T dont feel 2 base all ins are necessary. I'm eager to see what else is done to Zerg to allow for more balance against the swarm in the othe rmatch-ups.
On March 14 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: Maru just eviscerated Neeb, probably the second best late game protoss player in the world, in late game TvP despite neeb having major economic advantage as well as all 3 forms of AOE
Turns out that lategame TvP is not as bad as many terran players claim it is. skyterran + ghost just shits on protoss late game
P.S. Maru won game 1 with raven, and game 3 on widow mine spam
Ok so 3 korean terrans can compete because they have insane skill, i get it if you can control perfectly ghost raven mines bio ball liberator the mu is balanced. There is a reason there is literally almost no non-korean terrans in top100 (according aligulac), while there is bunch of zerg and protoss players...
It feels like you don't quite know the words you are using here. While Aligulac is certainly flawed, I decided to humor you and go check whether there is anything to your claims.
Just looking at the first 2 pages on Aligulac, we have the following distribution of non-koreans: Protoss: 16 Terran: 11 Zerg: 20 And that list goes all the way down to players like Ziggy and Future. On the first page we have: Protoss: 4 Terran: 3 Zerg: 9 So I don't quite understand where you get your "literally almost no non-korean terrans" from.
Considering that top tier Terran players are just more rare in general in EU and NA (similar to how there are fewer top tier Zergs in Korea), that spread is entirely unsurprising and very far from your claims. In fact, I don't think your claim reflects reality at all.
Maru and Innovation didn't just "compete", they completely crushed their Protoss opponents and they certainly didn't play perfect either. Innovation lost a map because he made a gigantic blunder at a very critical phase of the game, not because the matchup is broken and otherwise unwinnable for Terran. It simply isn't.
Continuing with Aligulac (hey, you brought it up): PvT sits at 50.29% at the moment, with Protoss being the lagging race for 12 months straight - and by a pretty significant margin no less.
I am somewhat confused as to why Terrans incessantly whine about Protoss when Zerg is much more dominant - both against Terran and in general.
On March 14 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: Maru just eviscerated Neeb, probably the second best late game protoss player in the world, in late game TvP despite neeb having major economic advantage as well as all 3 forms of AOE
Turns out that lategame TvP is not as bad as many terran players claim it is. skyterran + ghost just shits on protoss late game
P.S. Maru won game 1 with raven, and game 3 on widow mine spam
Ok so 3 korean terrans can compete because they have insane skill, i get it if you can control perfectly ghost raven mines bio ball liberator the mu is balanced. There is a reason there is literally almost no non-korean terrans in top100 (according aligulac), while there is bunch of zerg and protoss players...
It feels like you don't quite know the words you are using here. While Aligulac is certainly flawed, I decided to humor you and go check whether there is anything to your claims.
Just looking at the first 2 pages on Aligulac, we have the following distribution of non-koreans: Protoss: 16 Terran: 11 Zerg: 20 And that list goes all the way down to players like Ziggy and Future. On the first page we have: Protoss: 4 Terran: 3 Zerg: 9 So I don't quite understand where you get your "literally almost no non-korean terrans" from.
Considering that top tier Terran players are just more rare in general in EU and NA (similar to how there are fewer top tier Zergs in Korea), that spread is entirely unsurprising and very far from your claims. In fact, I don't think your claim reflects reality at all.
Maru and Innovation didn't just "compete", they completely crushed their Protoss opponents and they certainly didn't play perfect either. Innovation lost a map because he made a gigantic blunder at a very critical phase of the game, not because the matchup is broken and otherwise unwinnable for Terran. It simply isn't.
Continuing with Aligulac (hey, you brought it up): PvT sits at 50.29% at the moment, with Protoss being the lagging race for 12 months straight - and by a pretty significant margin no less.
I am somewhat confused as to why Terrans incessantly whine about Protoss when Zerg is much more dominant - both against Terran and in general.
So there being more than 50% less terran is totaly alright, the mental gymnastics that people go thru is astonishing. Also i wonder why you didnt bother saying how much less korean zergs are, well i checked and in top 50 there is 7 kr zergs and 8 kr terrans and 9 kr protoss. So your statement about kr zergs doesnt make sense.
When are you guys finally gonna get that winrates in PvT are more or less even just because the Terrans found a way (were forced) to cheese the toss players out with strong early game timing pushes? Are you really happy about a state of the game? Is it fun watching the same bullshit every single game? And then if Terran push fails, its basically GG unless you play like Maru and toss makes mistakes...
I dont know about you, but aside form a few top Terrans, I dont even watch PvT its boring and painful and stupid. Even for the players its frustrating, yet Blizz does nothing about it. The upgrade change wont really do anything meaningful so again we have to wait and endure this meta. Meh
Nerfing protoss in order to redesign the matchup is really frustrating for protoss players, especially when it affects other matchups.
I think Blizzard should make early game terran harass stronger so that the terrans are happy to do a harass + macro build, and protoss have to sacrifice some economy in order to better defend harass (or lose workers and therefore have a weaker economy). If harass doesn't look good to terrans, then they will keep feeling obligated to do these bizarre timings and risky builds (whether they actually need to or not), and keep whining about the matchup.
Well, historically terrans will whine regardless even though terran has been the best race in competitive play. They're always either not able to play the builds they want, not able to get the units they want, or not winning enough (>50%). If terran goes one year without winning multiple major tournaments or one matchup dips below 48%, you'd think the game is broken, and yet protoss and zerg have always had to deal with that.
On March 15 2019 00:30 NonY wrote: Well, historically terrans will whine regardless even though terran has been the best race in competitive play.
This is objectively false. Why say this without any evidence?
I was sure it came out of the blue without real proof, so I collected some data to disprove it rather quickly. I looked at sc2earnings and computed how much money each race won from the top 100 earners (turns out I know the race of everyone of these players, only one I googled was XY to be sure he was terran)
The results are: (I only considered the floor of kilo of dollars part of each winnings, ie. for Maru at $698,310.15 I counted 698k, but this doesn't change the order)
1st: Zergs players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 8227k = 8.227millions of $ 2st: Protoss players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 6802k = 6.802millions of $ 3rd: Terran players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 6622k = 6.622millions of $
You can argue that it's not the only metric for which race is best in competitive play, which is true, but it's imho the simplest one there is available that remains objective.
Imo P/T earnings are close enough that I'd consider them equal, but terran isn't the best race in competitive play if your competitive goal is to make money. As for number of tournaments wins, combined aligulac points of the top 100, etc. these would be interesting metrics as well that could offer another point of view.
On March 14 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: Maru just eviscerated Neeb, probably the second best late game protoss player in the world, in late game TvP despite neeb having major economic advantage as well as all 3 forms of AOE
Turns out that lategame TvP is not as bad as many terran players claim it is. skyterran + ghost just shits on protoss late game
P.S. Maru won game 1 with raven, and game 3 on widow mine spam
Ok so 3 korean terrans can compete because they have insane skill, i get it if you can control perfectly ghost raven mines bio ball liberator the mu is balanced. There is a reason there is literally almost no non-korean terrans in top100 (according aligulac), while there is bunch of zerg and protoss players...
Continuing with Aligulac (hey, you brought it up): PvT sits at 50.29% at the moment, with Protoss being the lagging race for 12 months straight - and by a pretty significant margin no less.
I am somewhat confused as to why Terrans incessantly whine about Protoss when Zerg is much more dominant - both against Terran and in general.
I don't know what this "lagging race" on the aligulac frontpage actually means because it contradicts aligulacs own balance reports. Said balance report says in the last year terran was the least successful race in 9 out of 12 months, Zerg in 2 months and protoss in one month (June 2018).
On March 15 2019 00:30 NonY wrote: Well, historically terrans will whine regardless even though terran has been the best race in competitive play.
This is objectively false. Why say this without any evidence?
I was sure it came out of the blue without real proof, so I collected some data to disprove it rather quickly. I looked at sc2earnings and computed how much money each race won from the top 100 earners (turns out I know the race of everyone of these players, only one I googled was XY to be sure he was terran)
The results are: (I only considered the floor of kilo of dollars part of each winnings, ie. for Maru at $698,310.15 I counted 698k, but this doesn't change the order)
1st: Zergs players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 8227k = 8.227millions of $ 2st: Protoss players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 6802k = 6.802millions of $ 3rd: Terran players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 6622k = 6.622millions of $
You can argue that it's not the only metric for which race is best in competitive play, which is true, but it's imho the simplest one there is available that remains objective.
Imo P/T earnings are close enough that I'd consider them equal, but terran isn't the best race in competitive play if your competitive goal is to make money. As for number of tournaments wins, combined aligulac points of the top 100, etc. these would be interesting metrics as well that could offer another point of view.
Its just a narrative they use every time, comes up with bogus claim, not bothering to check if its true or not, fact is terrans wins least amount of money. Protoss has historically always dominated terrans except select few top korean pro players (Maru, Innovation, etc...), the main problem is that terran is forced into bio play, which is so figured out by now thats its done deal, terran can keep zerg honest by using mech / battle mech / mech-air, there are bunch of differnt builds terrans can do vs zerg that involve all kind of differnt units. While the same terran is forced into very specific unit mix, since nothing else works. you can build 20 siege tanks and still get rolled by a move immortals archon zealot, which should get crushed (just doesnt make sense from balance perspective). If zerg wants to break such huge siege line, he needs specific units like vipers, broodlords, which arent standard massable zerg units, and come way late in the tech.
Just look at rail vs inno g2, at 11.30 rails a moves into 6+sieged siege tanks, bunch of liberators and bio with standard zealot stalker colosus ball, and guess what? he wins the fight even though army size was fairly even, the commentators were like no way he wants to move into that choke!, nope he just did and wiped the floor of terran army..
On March 15 2019 00:30 NonY wrote: Well, historically terrans will whine regardless even though terran has been the best race in competitive play.
This is objectively false. Why say this without any evidence?
I was sure it came out of the blue without real proof, so I collected some data to disprove it rather quickly. I looked at sc2earnings and computed how much money each race won from the top 100 earners (turns out I know the race of everyone of these players, only one I googled was XY to be sure he was terran)
The results are: (I only considered the floor of kilo of dollars part of each winnings, ie. for Maru at $698,310.15 I counted 698k, but this doesn't change the order)
1st: Zergs players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 8227k = 8.227millions of $ 2st: Protoss players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 6802k = 6.802millions of $ 3rd: Terran players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 6622k = 6.622millions of $
You can argue that it's not the only metric for which race is best in competitive play, which is true, but it's imho the simplest one there is available that remains objective.
Imo P/T earnings are close enough that I'd consider them equal, but terran isn't the best race in competitive play if your competitive goal is to make money. As for number of tournaments wins, combined aligulac points of the top 100, etc. these would be interesting metrics as well that could offer another point of view.
On March 15 2019 00:30 NonY wrote: Well, historically terrans will whine regardless even though terran has been the best race in competitive play.
This is objectively false. Why say this without any evidence?
I was sure it came out of the blue without real proof, so I collected some data to disprove it rather quickly. I looked at sc2earnings and computed how much money each race won from the top 100 earners (turns out I know the race of everyone of these players, only one I googled was XY to be sure he was terran)
The results are: (I only considered the floor of kilo of dollars part of each winnings, ie. for Maru at $698,310.15 I counted 698k, but this doesn't change the order)
1st: Zergs players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 8227k = 8.227millions of $ 2st: Protoss players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 6802k = 6.802millions of $ 3rd: Terran players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 6622k = 6.622millions of $
You can argue that it's not the only metric for which race is best in competitive play, which is true, but it's imho the simplest one there is available that remains objective.
Imo P/T earnings are close enough that I'd consider them equal, but terran isn't the best race in competitive play if your competitive goal is to make money. As for number of tournaments wins, combined aligulac points of the top 100, etc. these would be interesting metrics as well that could offer another point of view.
Its just a narrative they use every time, comes up with bogus claim, not bothering to check if its true or not, fact is terrans wins least amount of money. Protoss has historically always dominated terrans except select few top korean pro players (Maru, Innovation, etc...), the main problem is that terran is forced into bio play, which is so figured out by now thats its done deal, terran can keep zerg honest by using mech / battle mech / mech-air, there are bunch of differnt builds terrans can do vs zerg that involve all kind of differnt units. While the same terran is forced into very specific unit mix, since nothing else works. you can build 20 siege tanks and still get rolled by a move immortals archon zealot, which should get crushed (just doesnt make sense from balance perspective). If zerg wants to break such huge siege line, he needs specific units like vipers, broodlords, which arent standard massable zerg units, and come way late in the tech.
Just look at rail vs inno g2, at 11.30 rails a moves into 6+sieged siege tanks, bunch of liberators and bio with standard zealot stalker colosus ball, and guess what? he wins the fight even though army size was fairly even, the commentators were like no way he wants to move into that choke!, nope he just did and wiped the floor of terran army..
you know along with my baiting, i also made a real contribution in that post?
terrans are blind to productive discussion. this is evidence right here
On March 15 2019 00:30 NonY wrote: Nerfing protoss in order to redesign the matchup is really frustrating for protoss players, especially when it affects other matchups.
I think Blizzard should make early game terran harass stronger so that the terrans are happy to do a harass + macro build, and protoss have to sacrifice some economy in order to better defend harass (or lose workers and therefore have a weaker economy). If harass doesn't look good to terrans, then they will keep feeling obligated to do these bizarre timings and risky builds (whether they actually need to or not), and keep whining about the matchup.
Well, historically terrans will whine regardless even though terran has been the best race in competitive play. They're always either not able to play the builds they want, not able to get the units they want, or not winning enough (>50%). If terran goes one year without winning multiple major tournaments or one matchup dips below 48%, you'd think the game is broken, and yet protoss and zerg have always had to deal with that.
Completely agree on the first part of your comment.
The rest I take is trolling? Because the facts clearly prove you wrong. Last year, Maru was the only terran premiere tournament winner for the whole year... 4/14 winner (1 player only) and 1/14 runner up (TY). This year first premiere, Terran completely bombed out. Actually last Terran win on a premiere weekender tournament was in 2017 (GSL vs. the world)
So... I dunno Kev
Edit: And if you are gonna preach about ancient history, then be my guest but it has nothing to do with current state of the game and that Terran got screwed in PvT after LOTV revamp, which is what most people are whining about.
On March 15 2019 00:30 NonY wrote: Well, historically terrans will whine regardless even though terran has been the best race in competitive play.
This is objectively false. Why say this without any evidence?
I was sure it came out of the blue without real proof, so I collected some data to disprove it rather quickly. I looked at sc2earnings and computed how much money each race won from the top 100 earners (turns out I know the race of everyone of these players, only one I googled was XY to be sure he was terran)
The results are: (I only considered the floor of kilo of dollars part of each winnings, ie. for Maru at $698,310.15 I counted 698k, but this doesn't change the order)
1st: Zergs players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 8227k = 8.227millions of $ 2st: Protoss players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 6802k = 6.802millions of $ 3rd: Terran players from the top 100 of sc2earnings earned roughly 6622k = 6.622millions of $
You can argue that it's not the only metric for which race is best in competitive play, which is true, but it's imho the simplest one there is available that remains objective.
Imo P/T earnings are close enough that I'd consider them equal, but terran isn't the best race in competitive play if your competitive goal is to make money. As for number of tournaments wins, combined aligulac points of the top 100, etc. these would be interesting metrics as well that could offer another point of view.
On March 15 2019 00:30 NonY wrote: Nerfing protoss in order to redesign the matchup is really frustrating for protoss players, especially when it affects other matchups.
I think Blizzard should make early game terran harass stronger so that the terrans are happy to do a harass + macro build, and protoss have to sacrifice some economy in order to better defend harass (or lose workers and therefore have a weaker economy). If harass doesn't look good to terrans, then they will keep feeling obligated to do these bizarre timings and risky builds (whether they actually need to or not), and keep whining about the matchup.
Well, historically terrans will whine regardless even though terran has been the best race in competitive play. They're always either not able to play the builds they want, not able to get the units they want, or not winning enough (>50%). If terran goes one year without winning multiple major tournaments or one matchup dips below 48%, you'd think the game is broken, and yet protoss and zerg have always had to deal with that.
Completely agree on the first part of your comment.
The rest I take is trolling? Because the facts clearly prove you wrong. Last year, Maru was the only terran premiere tournament winner for the whole year... 4/14 winner (1 player only) and 1/14 runner up (TY). This year first premiere, Terran completely bombed out. Actually last Terran win on a premiere weekender tournament was in 2017 (GSL vs. the world)
So... I dunno Kev
Yup and therefore terrans think the game is broken. Where am I wrong?
On March 15 2019 03:03 MarianoSC2 wrote: Edit: And if you are gonna preach about ancient history, then be my guest but it has nothing to do with current state of the game and that Terran got screwed in PvT after LOTV revamp, which is what most people are whining about.
Terrans have always whined the most. I made a post saying that terran harass should be buffed and that's all terrans can do is whine about me calling them historical whiners.
On March 15 2019 00:30 NonY wrote: Nerfing protoss in order to redesign the matchup is really frustrating for protoss players, especially when it affects other matchups.
I think Blizzard should make early game terran harass stronger so that the terrans are happy to do a harass + macro build, and protoss have to sacrifice some economy in order to better defend harass (or lose workers and therefore have a weaker economy). If harass doesn't look good to terrans, then they will keep feeling obligated to do these bizarre timings and risky builds (whether they actually need to or not), and keep whining about the matchup.
Well, historically terrans will whine regardless even though terran has been the best race in competitive play. They're always either not able to play the builds they want, not able to get the units they want, or not winning enough (>50%). If terran goes one year without winning multiple major tournaments or one matchup dips below 48%, you'd think the game is broken, and yet protoss and zerg have always had to deal with that.
Completely agree on the first part of your comment.
The rest I take is trolling? Because the facts clearly prove you wrong. Last year, Maru was the only terran premiere tournament winner for the whole year... 4/14 winner (1 player only) and 1/14 runner up (TY). This year first premiere, Terran completely bombed out. Actually last Terran win on a premiere weekender tournament was in 2017 (GSL vs. the world)
So... I dunno Kev
Yup and therefore terrans think the game is broken. Where am I wrong?
On March 15 2019 03:03 MarianoSC2 wrote: Edit: And if you are gonna preach about ancient history, then be my guest but it has nothing to do with current state of the game and that Terran got screwed in PvT after LOTV revamp, which is what most people are whining about.
Terrans have always whined the most. I made a post saying that terran harass should be buffed and that's all terrans can do is whine about me calling them historical whiners.
Lol. Sc1 is relevant to sc2 balance on some planet? Zerg is also being nerfed..its not just protoss. If there was no nerf happening to zerg then the protosses whining would have some legitimacy. The nydus play is allllll over the matchup.. blizz is trying to fix that...ur upgrades got less than a minute longer to max out thats seems like adequate compensation for what zerg lost with the patch...which is the whole point lmao to fix tvp without influencing pvz too much. You dont even hear pro toss players trying to pretend like tvp isnt a joke right now. So blizz is doing something about it. Literally no matter what they did if it involved toss getting any weaker the salt tears would be flowing. I really hope they dont pay it any mind.
On March 14 2019 15:15 skdsk wrote: Its honestly really strange how blizzard gives toss like 3 mass aoe killing options in tvp all of them can wipe your army in 1-2 shots, yet terran only really has widow mine, which is situational and nowhere on the same power as protoss options, they have ghost, but ghost doesnt even kill the targets he aoes. So protoss is like you have liberators ghost raven wm you only need to use them all and its all ok!. Try to use 4 caster and micro your bio ball at same time, will see how it goes to you.. i specifically try to macro in every tvp, but honestly i lose pretty much every game...
Without those AOE, Protoss would be complete trash. Protoss AOE is their equalizer.
If Terran, with the pound for pound most efficient units in the game, gets Protoss tier AOE, they become broken -
See: old Raven
Widow mines are great too, I dont know what youre talking about. They almost always pay for themselves at the very least.
And you forgot the siege tank
What 4 casters are you talking about....that sounds more like the Protoss army which is so reliant on spells/abilities
You micro the bio, kite them with the support of your widow mine/liberator push, and the only casters you have are ghosts for high templar and ravens for disruptor/colossus, generally speaking
Pretty much every terran unit have ability and you need to use it correctly or the unit becomes useless, compare lets say protos death ball of zealot stalker archon colosus ht and terran mmm raven wm liberator ghost. All protoss need to do is drop storms, and micro his units, terran needs to use emp, constantly siege unsiege liberator and widow mines, micro his bio like crazy, use raven spells, so terran needs to use 2-3times more skills then protoss for even battle...
Also another problem is Protoss dont have to "answer" to any unit terran makes, for example if protoss makes ht, terran needs to make ghosts or he gets rekt, if protoss makes colosus terran needs vikings or libs with range. Protoss doesnt need to make anything to answer to terran units all his units already counters everything terrans make.
lol not sure if srs
i switched from protoss main to terran main because the protoss army is too much of a hassle to control.
the point youre missing is that if storm (or whatever AOE youre relying on) whiffs, youre in pretty deep shit. your expensive, important units just melt.
Terran has superb entrenched positioning to fall back to, with excellent AI
Lmao are you serious? Even dodging a storm 100% is huge damage to the Terran army because the units are splitting and are not attacking.
On March 14 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: Maru just eviscerated Neeb, probably the second best late game protoss player in the world, in late game TvP despite neeb having major economic advantage as well as all 3 forms of AOE
Turns out that lategame TvP is not as bad as many terran players claim it is. skyterran + ghost just shits on protoss late game
P.S. Maru won game 1 with raven, and game 3 on widow mine spam
shit on protoss late game ???? what about bogus vs rail game where he got shit'd by the army he's supposed to shit on ??? this is the most ridiculous comment i've seen in a while...
On March 14 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: Maru just eviscerated Neeb, probably the second best late game protoss player in the world, in late game TvP despite neeb having major economic advantage as well as all 3 forms of AOE
Turns out that lategame TvP is not as bad as many terran players claim it is. skyterran + ghost just shits on protoss late game
P.S. Maru won game 1 with raven, and game 3 on widow mine spam
shit on protoss late game ???? what about bogus vs rail game where he got shit'd by the army he's supposed to shit on ??? this is the most ridiculous comment i've seen in a while...
On March 14 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: Maru just eviscerated Neeb, probably the second best late game protoss player in the world, in late game TvP despite neeb having major economic advantage as well as all 3 forms of AOE
Turns out that lategame TvP is not as bad as many terran players claim it is. skyterran + ghost just shits on protoss late game
P.S. Maru won game 1 with raven, and game 3 on widow mine spam
If anything that game just proofs that lategame TvP is broken. Maru had to play absolutely perfectly to ever stand a chance to win, while Neeb made so many mistakes and still stayed in the game for so long. (the eco advantage you mentioned is not just random, every toss has eco advantage if he makes it into lategame and that is the problem!) It just wasnt Neebs day, he played poorly overall.
On the other hand look at Rail vs Inno. Similar game, but Inno made 1 big mistake with moving his units too far out and his micro and positioning wasnt nearly as perfect as Marus, and he got completely crushed.
I said skyterran + ghosts destroy protoss late game
Compare Innovation's and Maru's late game armies. Maru had like double the amount of skyterran and ghosts that innovation did. And innovation was still able to kill 20 of those "broken" tempests
On March 14 2019 15:15 skdsk wrote: Its honestly really strange how blizzard gives toss like 3 mass aoe killing options in tvp all of them can wipe your army in 1-2 shots, yet terran only really has widow mine, which is situational and nowhere on the same power as protoss options, they have ghost, but ghost doesnt even kill the targets he aoes. So protoss is like you have liberators ghost raven wm you only need to use them all and its all ok!. Try to use 4 caster and micro your bio ball at same time, will see how it goes to you.. i specifically try to macro in every tvp, but honestly i lose pretty much every game...
Without those AOE, Protoss would be complete trash. Protoss AOE is their equalizer.
If Terran, with the pound for pound most efficient units in the game, gets Protoss tier AOE, they become broken -
See: old Raven
Widow mines are great too, I dont know what youre talking about. They almost always pay for themselves at the very least.
And you forgot the siege tank
What 4 casters are you talking about....that sounds more like the Protoss army which is so reliant on spells/abilities
You micro the bio, kite them with the support of your widow mine/liberator push, and the only casters you have are ghosts for high templar and ravens for disruptor/colossus, generally speaking
Pretty much every terran unit have ability and you need to use it correctly or the unit becomes useless, compare lets say protos death ball of zealot stalker archon colosus ht and terran mmm raven wm liberator ghost. All protoss need to do is drop storms, and micro his units, terran needs to use emp, constantly siege unsiege liberator and widow mines, micro his bio like crazy, use raven spells, so terran needs to use 2-3times more skills then protoss for even battle...
Also another problem is Protoss dont have to "answer" to any unit terran makes, for example if protoss makes ht, terran needs to make ghosts or he gets rekt, if protoss makes colosus terran needs vikings or libs with range. Protoss doesnt need to make anything to answer to terran units all his units already counters everything terrans make.
lol not sure if srs
i switched from protoss main to terran main because the protoss army is too much of a hassle to control.
the point youre missing is that if storm (or whatever AOE youre relying on) whiffs, youre in pretty deep shit. your expensive, important units just melt.
Terran has superb entrenched positioning to fall back to, with excellent AI
Lmao are you serious? Even dodging a storm 100% is huge damage to the Terran army because the units are splitting and are not attacking.
The only part of the terran army that really needs to retreat without doing anything are MMM. Vikings have 9 range so after a storm dodge they are back at shredding expensive colussi and tempests.
So yeah - while marines and marauders might be zoned out, youre ignoring the rest of the terran position - range liberators, ghosts, vikings which still are huge threats to the key components of the protoss deathball
On March 14 2019 15:15 skdsk wrote: Its honestly really strange how blizzard gives toss like 3 mass aoe killing options in tvp all of them can wipe your army in 1-2 shots, yet terran only really has widow mine, which is situational and nowhere on the same power as protoss options, they have ghost, but ghost doesnt even kill the targets he aoes. So protoss is like you have liberators ghost raven wm you only need to use them all and its all ok!. Try to use 4 caster and micro your bio ball at same time, will see how it goes to you.. i specifically try to macro in every tvp, but honestly i lose pretty much every game...
Without those AOE, Protoss would be complete trash. Protoss AOE is their equalizer.
If Terran, with the pound for pound most efficient units in the game, gets Protoss tier AOE, they become broken -
See: old Raven
Widow mines are great too, I dont know what youre talking about. They almost always pay for themselves at the very least.
And you forgot the siege tank
What 4 casters are you talking about....that sounds more like the Protoss army which is so reliant on spells/abilities
You micro the bio, kite them with the support of your widow mine/liberator push, and the only casters you have are ghosts for high templar and ravens for disruptor/colossus, generally speaking
Pretty much every terran unit have ability and you need to use it correctly or the unit becomes useless, compare lets say protos death ball of zealot stalker archon colosus ht and terran mmm raven wm liberator ghost. All protoss need to do is drop storms, and micro his units, terran needs to use emp, constantly siege unsiege liberator and widow mines, micro his bio like crazy, use raven spells, so terran needs to use 2-3times more skills then protoss for even battle...
Also another problem is Protoss dont have to "answer" to any unit terran makes, for example if protoss makes ht, terran needs to make ghosts or he gets rekt, if protoss makes colosus terran needs vikings or libs with range. Protoss doesnt need to make anything to answer to terran units all his units already counters everything terrans make.
lol not sure if srs
i switched from protoss main to terran main because the protoss army is too much of a hassle to control.
the point youre missing is that if storm (or whatever AOE youre relying on) whiffs, youre in pretty deep shit. your expensive, important units just melt.
Terran has superb entrenched positioning to fall back to, with excellent AI
Lmao are you serious? Even dodging a storm 100% is huge damage to the Terran army because the units are splitting and are not attacking.
The only part of the terran army that really needs to retreat without doing anything are MMM. Vikings have 9 range so after a storm dodge they are back at shredding expensive colussi and tempests.
So yeah - while marines and marauders might be zoned out, youre ignoring the rest of the terran position - range liberators, ghosts, vikings which still are huge threats to the key components of the protoss deathball
Yeah, Parting had a game on his stream against TY where TY did the mass ghost/viking/ranged liberator thing and TY just basically starved Parting and chipped away his tempest/colossus/HT army and there wasn't a lot Parting could do to counter it. The thing with that Terran army is it all has a lot of range, and you can zone with nukes to prevent Protoss from ever properly attacking in. TY built mass orbitals so Parting couldn't ever get observers close enough to find ghosts since his army was constantly being scanned (also, there were tons of turrets). TY kept sending ghosts to nuke bases and ended up pinning Parting and then slow pushed across the map with liberators. Parting went from being up multiple bases to losing because he could never properly fight TY's army in a cost effective way and he eventually ran out of gas.
When properly done, that composition looks incredibly strong.
EPT
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