This thread is starting to get out of hand. From this point on, if you are going to post statistics and/or data as a way to back up your statements about racial imbalances, then please post the sources as well.
On March 14 2019 15:15 skdsk wrote: Its honestly really strange how blizzard gives toss like 3 mass aoe killing options in tvp all of them can wipe your army in 1-2 shots, yet terran only really has widow mine, which is situational and nowhere on the same power as protoss options, they have ghost, but ghost doesnt even kill the targets he aoes. So protoss is like you have liberators ghost raven wm you only need to use them all and its all ok!. Try to use 4 caster and micro your bio ball at same time, will see how it goes to you.. i specifically try to macro in every tvp, but honestly i lose pretty much every game...
Without those AOE, Protoss would be complete trash. Protoss AOE is their equalizer.
If Terran, with the pound for pound most efficient units in the game, gets Protoss tier AOE, they become broken -
See: old Raven
Widow mines are great too, I dont know what youre talking about. They almost always pay for themselves at the very least.
And you forgot the siege tank
What 4 casters are you talking about....that sounds more like the Protoss army which is so reliant on spells/abilities
You micro the bio, kite them with the support of your widow mine/liberator push, and the only casters you have are ghosts for high templar and ravens for disruptor/colossus, generally speaking
Pretty much every terran unit have ability and you need to use it correctly or the unit becomes useless, compare lets say protos death ball of zealot stalker archon colosus ht and terran mmm raven wm liberator ghost. All protoss need to do is drop storms, and micro his units, terran needs to use emp, constantly siege unsiege liberator and widow mines, micro his bio like crazy, use raven spells, so terran needs to use 2-3times more skills then protoss for even battle...
Also another problem is Protoss dont have to "answer" to any unit terran makes, for example if protoss makes ht, terran needs to make ghosts or he gets rekt, if protoss makes colosus terran needs vikings or libs with range. Protoss doesnt need to make anything to answer to terran units all his units already counters everything terrans make.
lol not sure if srs
i switched from protoss main to terran main because the protoss army is too much of a hassle to control.
the point youre missing is that if storm (or whatever AOE youre relying on) whiffs, youre in pretty deep shit. your expensive, important units just melt.
Terran has superb entrenched positioning to fall back to, with excellent AI
Lmao are you serious? Even dodging a storm 100% is huge damage to the Terran army because the units are splitting and are not attacking.
The only part of the terran army that really needs to retreat without doing anything are MMM. Vikings have 9 range so after a storm dodge they are back at shredding expensive colussi and tempests.
So yeah - while marines and marauders might be zoned out, youre ignoring the rest of the terran position - range liberators, ghosts, vikings which still are huge threats to the key components of the protoss deathball
Yeah, Parting had a game on his stream against TY where TY did the mass ghost/viking/ranged liberator thing and TY just basically starved Parting and chipped away his tempest/colossus/HT army and there wasn't a lot Parting could do to counter it. The thing with that Terran army is it all has a lot of range, and you can zone with nukes to prevent Protoss from ever properly attacking in. TY built mass orbitals so Parting couldn't ever get observers close enough to find ghosts since his army was constantly being scanned (also, there were tons of turrets). TY kept sending ghosts to nuke bases and ended up pinning Parting and then slow pushed across the map with liberators. Parting went from being up multiple bases to losing because he could never properly fight TY's army in a cost effective way and he eventually ran out of gas.
When properly done, that composition looks incredibly strong.
Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
I dont know where this myth of Terran having to 2 base all in Protoss to have a chance even comes from.
2019 Code S Season 1 Stats vs Cure - The best protoss player on the planet, as well as the third most successful player on the planet last year, was eliminated from the tournament by Cure. One of cure's win was as a 3 base terran.
2019 Code S Season 1 Parting vs Bunny - Protoss player eliminated by Terran again. Bunny won game 2 as a 3 base terran and never did a real 2 base all in during his second win in the series
2019 Cose S Season 1 Innovation vs Hurricane - Inno won the series, and he won both games as 3 base terran
2019 Code S Season 1 Patience vs Bunny - i forgot the specifics but both of bunny's wins were as 3 base terran
March 2019 Olimo league TY vs Zest - TY beats Zest in bo5. Two of the three wins are macro games, with one of them going to extreme late game on year zero. And you see the same thing - Protoss cannot do anything against skyterran + ghost late game
On March 14 2019 15:15 skdsk wrote: Its honestly really strange how blizzard gives toss like 3 mass aoe killing options in tvp all of them can wipe your army in 1-2 shots, yet terran only really has widow mine, which is situational and nowhere on the same power as protoss options, they have ghost, but ghost doesnt even kill the targets he aoes. So protoss is like you have liberators ghost raven wm you only need to use them all and its all ok!. Try to use 4 caster and micro your bio ball at same time, will see how it goes to you.. i specifically try to macro in every tvp, but honestly i lose pretty much every game...
Without those AOE, Protoss would be complete trash. Protoss AOE is their equalizer.
If Terran, with the pound for pound most efficient units in the game, gets Protoss tier AOE, they become broken -
See: old Raven
Widow mines are great too, I dont know what youre talking about. They almost always pay for themselves at the very least.
And you forgot the siege tank
What 4 casters are you talking about....that sounds more like the Protoss army which is so reliant on spells/abilities
You micro the bio, kite them with the support of your widow mine/liberator push, and the only casters you have are ghosts for high templar and ravens for disruptor/colossus, generally speaking
Pretty much every terran unit have ability and you need to use it correctly or the unit becomes useless, compare lets say protos death ball of zealot stalker archon colosus ht and terran mmm raven wm liberator ghost. All protoss need to do is drop storms, and micro his units, terran needs to use emp, constantly siege unsiege liberator and widow mines, micro his bio like crazy, use raven spells, so terran needs to use 2-3times more skills then protoss for even battle...
Also another problem is Protoss dont have to "answer" to any unit terran makes, for example if protoss makes ht, terran needs to make ghosts or he gets rekt, if protoss makes colosus terran needs vikings or libs with range. Protoss doesnt need to make anything to answer to terran units all his units already counters everything terrans make.
lol not sure if srs
i switched from protoss main to terran main because the protoss army is too much of a hassle to control.
the point youre missing is that if storm (or whatever AOE youre relying on) whiffs, youre in pretty deep shit. your expensive, important units just melt.
Terran has superb entrenched positioning to fall back to, with excellent AI
Lmao are you serious? Even dodging a storm 100% is huge damage to the Terran army because the units are splitting and are not attacking.
The only part of the terran army that really needs to retreat without doing anything are MMM. Vikings have 9 range so after a storm dodge they are back at shredding expensive colussi and tempests.
So yeah - while marines and marauders might be zoned out, youre ignoring the rest of the terran position - range liberators, ghosts, vikings which still are huge threats to the key components of the protoss deathball
Yeah, Parting had a game on his stream against TY where TY did the mass ghost/viking/ranged liberator thing and TY just basically starved Parting and chipped away his tempest/colossus/HT army and there wasn't a lot Parting could do to counter it. The thing with that Terran army is it all has a lot of range, and you can zone with nukes to prevent Protoss from ever properly attacking in. TY built mass orbitals so Parting couldn't ever get observers close enough to find ghosts since his army was constantly being scanned (also, there were tons of turrets). TY kept sending ghosts to nuke bases and ended up pinning Parting and then slow pushed across the map with liberators. Parting went from being up multiple bases to losing because he could never properly fight TY's army in a cost effective way and he eventually ran out of gas.
When properly done, that composition looks incredibly strong.
Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
I dont know where this myth of Terran having to 2 base all in Protoss to have a chance even comes from.
2019 Code S Season 1 Stats vs Cure - The best protoss player on the planet, as well as the third most successful player on the planet last year, was eliminated from the tournament by Cure. One of cure's win was as a 3 base terran.
2019 Code S Season 1 Parting vs Bunny - Protoss player eliminated by Terran again. Bunny won game 2 as a 3 base terran and never did a real 2 base all in during his second win in the series
2019 Cose S Season 1 Innovation vs Hurricane - Inno won the series, and he won both games as 3 base terran
2019 Code S Season 1 Patience vs Bunny - i forgot the specifics but both of bunny's wins were as 3 base terran
March 2019 Olimo league TY vs Zest - TY beats Zest in bo5. Two of the three wins are macro games, with one of them going to extreme late game on year zero. And you see the same thing - Protoss cannot do anything against skyterran + ghost late game
The argument was always that its impossible to do it if you arent so korean who spams 60games per day, If you are average player playing tvp in late game is nightmare
On March 15 2019 15:07 BerserkSword wrote: Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
Sorry, you are wrong. Maru was a 3 time Code S champion last year. He has some of the best micro and control from any player on the planet, regardless of race. Maru is in contention for one of the best SC2 players of all time. Neeb is not even being discussed as being a top 5 player for his race all time (consider other Protoss players that have achieved much more than Neeb like Stats, Zest, MC, sOs, Rain, Classic, Hero, etc).
The fact that Maru barely struggled to beat Neeb in such a late game shows how strong the Protoss late game is. I don't consider Neeb's control to be on the same level of Maru.
If Maru had spent his career playing Protoss and Neeb spent his career playing Terran, the 2nd match yesterday wouldn't have gone on for nearly as long as it did. With Protoss's advantage in the late game, Maru playing as Protoss would have closed out and won the game much earlier than Neeb playing Terran.
It just took Maru that long to beat Neeb yesterday because Terran is at a disadvantage to Protoss in the late game. Blizzard probably needs to make a few tweaks in the late game so that Terran isn't at such a disadvantage versus Protoss.
On March 15 2019 15:07 BerserkSword wrote: Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
Sorry, you are wrong. Maru was a 3 time Code S champion last year. He has some of the best micro and control from any player on the planet, regardless of race. Maru is in contention for one of the best SC2 players of all time. Neeb is not even being discussed as being a top 5 player for his race all time (consider other Protoss players that have achieved much more than Neeb like Stats, Zest, MC, sOs, Rain, Classic, Hero, etc).
The fact that Maru barely struggled to beat Neeb in such a late game shows how strong the Protoss late game is. I don't consider Neeb's control to be on the same level of Maru.
If Maru had spent his career playing Protoss and Neeb spent his career playing Terran, the 2nd match yesterday wouldn't have gone on for nearly as long as it did. With Protoss's advantage in the late game, Maru playing as Protoss would have closed out and won the game much earlier than Neeb playing Terran.
It just took Maru that long to beat Neeb yesterday because Terran is at a disadvantage to Protoss in the late game. Blizzard probably needs to make a few tweaks in the late game so that Terran isn't at such a disadvantage versus Protoss.
Obviously neeb's control is not on the same level as Maru's, but youre acting like neeb is some scrub who threw the game. Maru was down so much at various points over the course of the game, and neeb's strategies were sound. Maru pulled the win out not due to superior army control, but because the late late game is terran favored no matter how you want to spin it.
and I'm glad you just ignored the laundry list of examples i gave
Here's the same exact map and same scenario TY vs Zest on Year Zero
game 2 if the time stamp doesnt work
Again, zest's protoss cannot do anything to that late game terran composition.
inb4 "TY won because he has better unit control than Zest"
On March 15 2019 15:07 BerserkSword wrote: Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
Sorry, you are wrong. Maru was a 3 time Code S champion last year. He has some of the best micro and control from any player on the planet, regardless of race. Maru is in contention for one of the best SC2 players of all time. Neeb is not even being discussed as being a top 5 player for his race all time (consider other Protoss players that have achieved much more than Neeb like Stats, Zest, MC, sOs, Rain, Classic, Hero, etc).
The fact that Maru barely struggled to beat Neeb in such a late game shows how strong the Protoss late game is. I don't consider Neeb's control to be on the same level of Maru.
If Maru had spent his career playing Protoss and Neeb spent his career playing Terran, the 2nd match yesterday wouldn't have gone on for nearly as long as it did. With Protoss's advantage in the late game, Maru playing as Protoss would have closed out and won the game much earlier than Neeb playing Terran.
It just took Maru that long to beat Neeb yesterday because Terran is at a disadvantage to Protoss in the late game. Blizzard probably needs to make a few tweaks in the late game so that Terran isn't at such a disadvantage versus Protoss.
So when Maru/TY/Inno win is because they are better players than the others, but when they loose is because the match-up is imba. The typical Terran-fan logic since WoL, where the imbalance was blatant and you all still defended that terrans were simply better.
Extreme late game TvP is clearly winnable at the top level. Early game is protoss favoured right now, and mid-game is Terran favoured as has almost always been. Late game is protoss favoured and extreme late game is Terran favoured after the recent nerfs to carriers and high Templars. Each race has its moments, as it should be.
The upgrade nerf will skew ZvP even more. Teleportable zerg armies for 50/50 is dumb enough.
On March 15 2019 15:07 BerserkSword wrote: Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
Sorry, you are wrong. Maru was a 3 time Code S champion last year. He has some of the best micro and control from any player on the planet, regardless of race. Maru is in contention for one of the best SC2 players of all time. Neeb is not even being discussed as being a top 5 player for his race all time (consider other Protoss players that have achieved much more than Neeb like Stats, Zest, MC, sOs, Rain, Classic, Hero, etc).
The fact that Maru barely struggled to beat Neeb in such a late game shows how strong the Protoss late game is. I don't consider Neeb's control to be on the same level of Maru.
If Maru had spent his career playing Protoss and Neeb spent his career playing Terran, the 2nd match yesterday wouldn't have gone on for nearly as long as it did. With Protoss's advantage in the late game, Maru playing as Protoss would have closed out and won the game much earlier than Neeb playing Terran.
It just took Maru that long to beat Neeb yesterday because Terran is at a disadvantage to Protoss in the late game. Blizzard probably needs to make a few tweaks in the late game so that Terran isn't at such a disadvantage versus Protoss.
So when Maru/TY/Inno win is because they are better players than the others, but when they loose is because the match-up is imba. The typical Terran-fan logic since WoL, where the imbalance was blatant and you all still defended that terrans were simply better.
Extreme late game TvP is clearly winnable at the top level. Early game is protoss favoured right now, and mid-game is Terran favoured as has almost always been. Late game is protoss favoured and extreme late game is Terran favoured after the recent nerfs to carriers and high Templars. Each race has its moments, as it should be.
The upgrade nerf will skew ZvP even more. Teleportable zerg armies for 50/50 is dumb enough.
it's comical really. and then nobody bats an eye when stats is eliminated in code S by cure
dont forget how badly the tempests were castrated. at first they lost their durability in exchange for speed. then the speed got nerfed while getting none of the durability back
On March 15 2019 15:07 BerserkSword wrote: Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
Sorry, you are wrong. Maru was a 3 time Code S champion last year. He has some of the best micro and control from any player on the planet, regardless of race. Maru is in contention for one of the best SC2 players of all time. Neeb is not even being discussed as being a top 5 player for his race all time (consider other Protoss players that have achieved much more than Neeb like Stats, Zest, MC, sOs, Rain, Classic, Hero, etc).
The fact that Maru barely struggled to beat Neeb in such a late game shows how strong the Protoss late game is. I don't consider Neeb's control to be on the same level of Maru.
If Maru had spent his career playing Protoss and Neeb spent his career playing Terran, the 2nd match yesterday wouldn't have gone on for nearly as long as it did. With Protoss's advantage in the late game, Maru playing as Protoss would have closed out and won the game much earlier than Neeb playing Terran.
It just took Maru that long to beat Neeb yesterday because Terran is at a disadvantage to Protoss in the late game. Blizzard probably needs to make a few tweaks in the late game so that Terran isn't at such a disadvantage versus Protoss.
So when Maru/TY/Inno win is because they are better players than the others, but when they loose is because the match-up is imba. The typical Terran-fan logic since WoL, where the imbalance was blatant and you all still defended that terrans were simply better.
Extreme late game TvP is clearly winnable at the top level. Early game is protoss favoured right now, and mid-game is Terran favoured as has almost always been. Late game is protoss favoured and extreme late game is Terran favoured after the recent nerfs to carriers and high Templars. Each race has its moments, as it should be.
The upgrade nerf will skew ZvP even more. Teleportable zerg armies for 50/50 is dumb enough.
What? I'm pretty sure that I read MarineLord posts on TL (and a few other terrans on twitter) that TvP lategame is okay/good, but that the real problem lies in the midgame where the terran is actually at a disadvantage and has a lot of troubles getting to the lategame / winning in the midgame.
On March 15 2019 15:07 BerserkSword wrote: Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
Sorry, you are wrong. Maru was a 3 time Code S champion last year. He has some of the best micro and control from any player on the planet, regardless of race. Maru is in contention for one of the best SC2 players of all time. Neeb is not even being discussed as being a top 5 player for his race all time (consider other Protoss players that have achieved much more than Neeb like Stats, Zest, MC, sOs, Rain, Classic, Hero, etc).
The fact that Maru barely struggled to beat Neeb in such a late game shows how strong the Protoss late game is. I don't consider Neeb's control to be on the same level of Maru.
If Maru had spent his career playing Protoss and Neeb spent his career playing Terran, the 2nd match yesterday wouldn't have gone on for nearly as long as it did. With Protoss's advantage in the late game, Maru playing as Protoss would have closed out and won the game much earlier than Neeb playing Terran.
It just took Maru that long to beat Neeb yesterday because Terran is at a disadvantage to Protoss in the late game. Blizzard probably needs to make a few tweaks in the late game so that Terran isn't at such a disadvantage versus Protoss.
Obviously neeb's control is not on the same level as Maru's, but youre acting like neeb is some scrub who threw the game. Maru was down so much at various points over the course of the game, and neeb's strategies were sound. Maru pulled the win out not due to superior army control, but because the late late game is terran favored no matter how you want to spin it.
and I'm glad you just ignored the laundry list of examples i gave
Here's the same exact map and same scenario TY vs Zest on Year Zero
Again, zest's protoss cannot do anything to that late game terran composition.
inb4 "TY won because he has better unit control than Zest"
TY won because he has better macro #ZestMacro
Although Zest has great name he isn't that good lately while TY rose to power in 2018 and it appears he's still holding his form. (do you remember Zest v Maru COde S finals? how long was it, an hour with some pregame talk and post game talk? )
Edit> Actually I would place Neeb over Zest at this moment.
focusing only on a few games on a few maps with clear imbalance in players level in order to show TvP ultra-late game is strong is kinda biased.
First, nobody said the ultra-late-game-on-even-footing was the main issue with TvP balance. We barely see this at all, in fact, because it is playable only on a few maps : split map plus strong liberators positions are the requirement.
Second, we can find numerous examples of terrans loosing ultra-late-game, last one being Innovation vs Rail (!!!) at WESG.
Next, people talking of "3basing terran" should make the difference between 3-bases all-in and 3 bases macro-oriented. A lot of recent 3bases terran is 3bases all-in, like the 5rax double reactored starport liberators no armory play (Inno do this a lot), or ghost before armory into all-ining with 3 ghosts, etc, etc.
Last, players are humans, thus make mistakes and/or good plays. So, even with let's say a BL/infestor area level of imbalance, some players will still loose a imba max-out BL/infestor situation because they fuck up/opponent provoke huge misplay. And so MMA still won games at the eight of BL/infestors with 360 surround and unsieged tanks drops on infestors.
Players still can win here and here even in the most imba situation, because they don't play DeepMind and so can provoke opponent's errors by making good moves. Doesn't mean it's not imba.
To return at the current TvP situation, recent competitive TvP between top players as been a slaughter, see IEM. But yeah Maru who win Neeb 90% of the time since years and years can still take games.
On March 15 2019 15:07 BerserkSword wrote: Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
Sorry, you are wrong. Maru was a 3 time Code S champion last year. He has some of the best micro and control from any player on the planet, regardless of race. Maru is in contention for one of the best SC2 players of all time. Neeb is not even being discussed as being a top 5 player for his race all time (consider other Protoss players that have achieved much more than Neeb like Stats, Zest, MC, sOs, Rain, Classic, Hero, etc).
The fact that Maru barely struggled to beat Neeb in such a late game shows how strong the Protoss late game is. I don't consider Neeb's control to be on the same level of Maru.
If Maru had spent his career playing Protoss and Neeb spent his career playing Terran, the 2nd match yesterday wouldn't have gone on for nearly as long as it did. With Protoss's advantage in the late game, Maru playing as Protoss would have closed out and won the game much earlier than Neeb playing Terran.
It just took Maru that long to beat Neeb yesterday because Terran is at a disadvantage to Protoss in the late game. Blizzard probably needs to make a few tweaks in the late game so that Terran isn't at such a disadvantage versus Protoss.
Obviously neeb's control is not on the same level as Maru's, but youre acting like neeb is some scrub who threw the game. Maru was down so much at various points over the course of the game, and neeb's strategies were sound. Maru pulled the win out not due to superior army control, but because the late late game is terran favored no matter how you want to spin it.
and I'm glad you just ignored the laundry list of examples i gave
Here's the same exact map and same scenario TY vs Zest on Year Zero
Again, zest's protoss cannot do anything to that late game terran composition.
inb4 "TY won because he has better unit control than Zest"
Zest gets caught completely out of position and doesn't recall to his 4th, warps in what is totally not enough units to defend 3 medvacs full of marines on a choke, loses them all then gets attacked. Barely survives, his few remaining zealots are chasing libs, meanwhile TY is preparing to take his southern base. Zest decides to dick around TY forward expansion donating the few tempests that he does have to bio running forward while the planetary goes up. There was no way TY was gonna push after losing all his tanks and getting his lib count reduced to almost nothing, and even if he did that army would've gotten slaughtered in the middle. Meanwhile at the 15 minute mark there is no sign of +2 air weapons starting (+3 is big a nice breakpoint for tempest vs libs) nor colossus because zest economy is dogshit.
Zest does a good attack on TY's 5th and takes down 3 ccs recalls to stop the attack on his 5th, but is being picked apart by libs sieging his fresh bases. Decides the best course of action is to spend what little money he has into upgrading shields vs TY's ghost heavy army with and attacking up a ramp into already sieged libs without a single templar to kill the giant ball of bio sitting atop the hill.
Zest lost because he had the tactical thinking of a potato during that game.
TLDR: he pretty much lost the game when 4th base died.
On March 15 2019 15:07 BerserkSword wrote: Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
Sorry, you are wrong. Maru was a 3 time Code S champion last year. He has some of the best micro and control from any player on the planet, regardless of race. Maru is in contention for one of the best SC2 players of all time. Neeb is not even being discussed as being a top 5 player for his race all time (consider other Protoss players that have achieved much more than Neeb like Stats, Zest, MC, sOs, Rain, Classic, Hero, etc).
The fact that Maru barely struggled to beat Neeb in such a late game shows how strong the Protoss late game is. I don't consider Neeb's control to be on the same level of Maru.
If Maru had spent his career playing Protoss and Neeb spent his career playing Terran, the 2nd match yesterday wouldn't have gone on for nearly as long as it did. With Protoss's advantage in the late game, Maru playing as Protoss would have closed out and won the game much earlier than Neeb playing Terran.
It just took Maru that long to beat Neeb yesterday because Terran is at a disadvantage to Protoss in the late game. Blizzard probably needs to make a few tweaks in the late game so that Terran isn't at such a disadvantage versus Protoss.
Obviously neeb's control is not on the same level as Maru's, but youre acting like neeb is some scrub who threw the game. Maru was down so much at various points over the course of the game, and neeb's strategies were sound. Maru pulled the win out not due to superior army control, but because the late late game is terran favored no matter how you want to spin it.
and I'm glad you just ignored the laundry list of examples i gave
Here's the same exact map and same scenario TY vs Zest on Year Zero
Again, zest's protoss cannot do anything to that late game terran composition.
inb4 "TY won because he has better unit control than Zest"
Again. The illogic is hilarious with this guy. You cant cherry pick games that help your case.. this is the 5th posting youve made about Neeb losing to Maru (which is supposed to happen when thr number 1 player meets an at best top 15 player?) Yet you continue to completely ignore that less than a week earlier that same player 2-0d Maru (absolutely not supposed to happen). This has nothing to do with balance. People at the top level play better or worse on given days. There is a consensus among pros (even Protoss pros) that Terran needs help in this matchup. It doesnt matter how much you cry or how many times Parting(semi competitive streamer) lost to TY(2nd best Terran in the world) toss is getting nerfed. I would be very surprised if this patch is the full extent of it as well. 6 months of proxy meta wasnt enough to convince you so clearly nothing will be.
On March 15 2019 15:07 BerserkSword wrote: Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
Sorry, you are wrong. Maru was a 3 time Code S champion last year. He has some of the best micro and control from any player on the planet, regardless of race. Maru is in contention for one of the best SC2 players of all time. Neeb is not even being discussed as being a top 5 player for his race all time (consider other Protoss players that have achieved much more than Neeb like Stats, Zest, MC, sOs, Rain, Classic, Hero, etc).
The fact that Maru barely struggled to beat Neeb in such a late game shows how strong the Protoss late game is. I don't consider Neeb's control to be on the same level of Maru.
If Maru had spent his career playing Protoss and Neeb spent his career playing Terran, the 2nd match yesterday wouldn't have gone on for nearly as long as it did. With Protoss's advantage in the late game, Maru playing as Protoss would have closed out and won the game much earlier than Neeb playing Terran.
It just took Maru that long to beat Neeb yesterday because Terran is at a disadvantage to Protoss in the late game. Blizzard probably needs to make a few tweaks in the late game so that Terran isn't at such a disadvantage versus Protoss.
So when Maru/TY/Inno win is because they are better players than the others, but when they loose is because the match-up is imba. The typical Terran-fan logic since WoL, where the imbalance was blatant and you all still defended that terrans were simply better.
Extreme late game TvP is clearly winnable at the top level. Early game is protoss favoured right now, and mid-game is Terran favoured as has almost always been. Late game is protoss favoured and extreme late game is Terran favoured after the recent nerfs to carriers and high Templars. Each race has its moments, as it should be.
The upgrade nerf will skew ZvP even more. Teleportable zerg armies for 50/50 is dumb enough.
What? I'm pretty sure that I read MarineLord posts on TL (and a few other terrans on twitter) that TvP lategame is okay/good, but that the real problem lies in the midgame where the terran is actually at a disadvantage and has a lot of troubles getting to the lategame / winning in the midgame.
I have looked for Mlord posts and I assume this is what you mention: “major imbalance that there is in mid/lategame in the matchup, if nobody try to macro in TvP it isn't because terran cheese are too strong but because of the amount of powerfull option protoss keeps adding to their army the longer the game goes, HT+colossus+disruptor, + eventually tempest makes it incredibly unfair, as terran have literally 0 army composition to deal with this kind of army”
For me, when Protoss has access and economy to have “HT+colossus+disruptor”, it is late game not mid game. Mid-game is for me when T3 units are not massed yet, and there we typically see a defensive Protoss vs a Terran that has the initiative. But whatever, definitions of that are not absolute.
On a consecutive post, he asks for (another) recall nerf to solve this.... it is beyond my comprehension how that would solve this (supposed) issue. I guess any nerf to Protoss is ok?
On another post he acknowledges that end-game compositions are ok.
Nydus changes are good, it's very refreshing to see them finally being used outside of all in attacks but they are just extremely powerful in all match ups at the moment, making them slightly easier to kill with a hit squad of cheap units is a small step, but a step in the right direction.
I don't know how to feel about the Protoss changes, obviously Protoss is very strong against Terran right now and the upgrade lead IS a problem but it's more of a symptom then the real issue. The real issue is that MULEs simply do not cover the economic lead that Protoss is able to gain by Chronoboosting workers out of their Nexus, almost always resulting in a heavy income edge to the Protoss which in turn, gives them other edges, like an upgrade and tech edge.
I think even an ever so slight buff to the MULE's income return might have been a sleeker change, would make ZvT a bit more competitive (it's close but as a Zerg I still feel like Z has the edge in ZvT) and it would help close the economy gap between Protoss and Terran.
Don't get me wrong I appreciate the gradual steps, but this nerf to Protoss is going to barely affect PvT at all while making Zerg feel very powerful with their now certain upgrade leads.
On March 15 2019 15:07 BerserkSword wrote: Exactly. That is basically what happend in Maru vs Neeb too. The Terran late game when played like that is a complete machine - almost impossible to crack as a Protoss
Sorry, you are wrong. Maru was a 3 time Code S champion last year. He has some of the best micro and control from any player on the planet, regardless of race. Maru is in contention for one of the best SC2 players of all time. Neeb is not even being discussed as being a top 5 player for his race all time (consider other Protoss players that have achieved much more than Neeb like Stats, Zest, MC, sOs, Rain, Classic, Hero, etc).
The fact that Maru barely struggled to beat Neeb in such a late game shows how strong the Protoss late game is. I don't consider Neeb's control to be on the same level of Maru.
If Maru had spent his career playing Protoss and Neeb spent his career playing Terran, the 2nd match yesterday wouldn't have gone on for nearly as long as it did. With Protoss's advantage in the late game, Maru playing as Protoss would have closed out and won the game much earlier than Neeb playing Terran.
It just took Maru that long to beat Neeb yesterday because Terran is at a disadvantage to Protoss in the late game. Blizzard probably needs to make a few tweaks in the late game so that Terran isn't at such a disadvantage versus Protoss.
Obviously neeb's control is not on the same level as Maru's, but youre acting like neeb is some scrub who threw the game. Maru was down so much at various points over the course of the game, and neeb's strategies were sound. Maru pulled the win out not due to superior army control, but because the late late game is terran favored no matter how you want to spin it.
and I'm glad you just ignored the laundry list of examples i gave
Here's the same exact map and same scenario TY vs Zest on Year Zero
Again, zest's protoss cannot do anything to that late game terran composition.
inb4 "TY won because he has better unit control than Zest"
So game 2 is supposed to show that lategame terran beats lategame protoss? Are we taking into account that Zest was literally incapable of macroing beyond 60 probes? Like, he gets his third earlier than TY and his expansion finished before TY's second orbital command finished and he's behind on probes. Throughout the game TY actually has an economy and uses that to transition into lategame well whereas zest just durdles around.
And then let's actually talk about the unit control. Why do you conclude protoss 'cant do anything to that late game terran composition' when he doesn't even have an oracle to provide vision for tempests (which causes him to lose his first set of tempest) and for the majority of the 'lategame' is just using a gateway army + storms while walking under liberation zones instead of slowly picking liberators off from range. Zest hardly even got a good army, he was just playing gateway units + storms and then a few useless tempests that he didn't control well at all. He never bothered with for example adding immortals, collosi, disruptors or carriers or actually having something to give Tempests vision. In the final fight he literally attack moves with gateway units into liberation zones.
And then it's still close because protoss can just keep trying to catch terran out of position because recall means they literally can't be out of position themselves.
EPT
#ZestMacro
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