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This thread is starting to get out of hand. From this point on, if you are going to post statistics and/or data as a way to back up your statements about racial imbalances, then please post the sources as well. |
Greetings!
After an epic final and an emotional championship ceremony at IEM Katowice, we got to witness soO take home a championship win! It was an uphill battle as he started the series being down 0–2, but in the end, he pulled it off and came through with a victory. Congratulations to soO!
Speaking of IEM, we saw a lot of cool strategies employed throughout the tournament, including Gumiho’s Battle Mech, as well as the subject of our first discussion topic: Nydus Worms.
Nydus Network/Nydus Worm
Nydus Worms will now have 3 armor instead of 5 armor when emerging.
While we love seeing some of the new strategies involving the Nydus Worm in action, we feel it can sometimes take too much of a commitment to stop a Worm from emerging even if the defender spots it right away. To help remedy this, we’re reducing the Nydus Worms’ armor while they emerge to give small groups of basic units—like Zerglings, Zealots, and Marines—an easier time taking them out, provided they discover them within a reasonable time frame. At the same time, we’d still like to keep some of its bonus armor intact to preserve its resilience against worker pulls.
Forge/Cybernetics Core
Level 1 upgrade times increased by 15 seconds.
Level 2 upgrade times increased by 18 seconds.
Level 3 upgrade times increased by 22 seconds.
Over the past few months, we’ve been following discussions within the community surrounding the TvP matchup, much of it centered around Protoss’s ability to build an upgrade advantage over Terran. To address this, we’d like to reduce the windows in which Protoss are able to gain that advantage over Terran by increasing the Protoss upgrade durations. As upgrades have historically been particularly impactful, we’ll be keeping a close eye on this change.
Our current plan is to release these changes to live servers on Monday, March 25. However, in order to give players ample practice time, these changes will be available for testing on the Testing tab and the Balance Test mod starting today. As always, let us know your thoughts!
Source: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20771127511
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According to my criteria it's a good thing they're actually testing these before just patching them in.
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Nydus need to cost more, and for TvP this will help but that's not close to enough
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On March 13 2019 04:50 Mlord wrote:
Nydus need to cost more, and for TvP this will help but that's not close to enough
Wouldn't these extra seconds mostly help Terrans to all-in before Protoss has 2/2 even better?
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i swear balance team is just one guy in silver league who watches parting stream
User was warned for this post.
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lol at first I thought it said that they were making Protoss upgrades faster. Nevertheless, I don't know if this is really enough.
Looking forward to see how it pans out. Guess they want to keep the crazy nydus-popping-up-everywhere meta while making it easier to defend at least.
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On March 13 2019 05:02 BadHabits wrote:
i swear balance team is just one guy in silver league who watches parting stream
I wonder if the recent layoffs affected the balance team. They're nowhere as responsive lately as they were the previous years. It feels like 2012 again with them apparently not showing any attention at all to the scene.
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On March 13 2019 05:03 sneakyfox wrote:
lol at first I thought it said that they were making Protoss upgrades faster. Nevertheless, I don't know if this is really enough.
Looking forward to see how it pans out. Guess they want to keep the crazy nydus-popping-up-everywhere meta while making it easier to defend at least.
with the armor nerf it will be much easier to kill, much less of a problem... i still think it could cost slightly more (i'm zerg)
but the things they decide to do with protoss lately is just soo... off the wall... like ALL the unneeded buffs they got in that patch, and now.. upgrade nerfs? really? why not just nerf chrono? it's obvious that they get a MASSIVE lead in all match ups because of it..
no guys, it's just the upgrades. .... .... god damnit blizzard team, i'm not good at the game, or smart but i could do a better job.
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On March 13 2019 05:02 BadHabits wrote:
i swear balance team is just one guy in silver league who watches parting stream
If u are gonna whine about the balance team you could at least put in the effort to explain what your logic is. Speaking as a champion for constructive feedback. I dont see either of these changes being in the wrong direction tho most likely not enough to fix tvp.
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I see lots of terraan think the issue of TvP is the economy and i'm going to go ahead and assume they are right so rather than try to nerf the toss economy, how about be buff the terran economy ?
It might not be enough but currently the terran supply depot takes 21 seconds to be built against 18 for toss and Zerg, maybe if it took 18 seconds as well for terran to build their supply, it would allow the scvs building depots to gain about 3 seconds of mineral mining. I don't think it would be quite enough to actually balance the match up but i think it would be a much more constructive step forward than nerfing protoss upgrades wich will also have an impact in PvZ
What do you guys think ?
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i think the changes are quite smart, i don't get what ur guys problem is.
would love to see an additional tiny marauder buff on top of that, but i can't complain too much tbh
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On March 13 2019 05:14 BadHabits wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 05:03 sneakyfox wrote:
lol at first I thought it said that they were making Protoss upgrades faster. Nevertheless, I don't know if this is really enough.
Looking forward to see how it pans out. Guess they want to keep the crazy nydus-popping-up-everywhere meta while making it easier to defend at least. with the armor nerf it will be much easier to kill, much less of a problem... i still think it could cost slightly more (i'm zerg) but the things they decide to do with protoss lately is just soo... off the wall... like ALL the unneeded buffs they got in that patch, and now.. upgrade nerfs? really? why not just nerf chrono? it's obvious that they get a MASSIVE lead in all match ups because of it.. no guys, it's just the upgrades. .... .... god damnit blizzard team, i'm not good at the game, or smart but i could do a better job.
Much better.
Agreed chrono is the root of the problem.
However.. "fix chrono" is a huge problem to figure out without breaking both matchups. You have to consider the changes in how it will affect every timing etc. This is a bandaid attempt at it which is better than nothing at all and faster than them figuring out what the right chrono rate is..which is hopefully eventually happening.
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On March 13 2019 05:18 TKL wrote:
I see lots of terraan think the issue of TvP is the economy and i'm going to go ahead and assume they are right so rather than try to nerf the toss economy, how about be buff the terran economy ?
It might not be enough but currently the terran supply depot takes 21 seconds to be built against 18 for toss and Zerg, maybe if it took 18 seconds as well for terran to build their supply, it would allow the scvs building depots to gain about 3 seconds of mineral mining. I don't think it would be quite enough to actually balance the match up but i think it would be a much more constructive step forward than nerfing protoss upgrades wich will also have an impact in PvZ
What do you guys think ?
While I'm Terran and would gladly welcome a Supply Depot build time decrease, I think the build time of the Supply Depot greatly affects the early game meta. Like if it built 3 seconds faster, I don't think the Terran economy would even be able to afford a Barracks until 5-6 seconds after (we already have to wait a few seconds if we do gas first).
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On March 13 2019 04:56 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 04:50 Mlord wrote:
Nydus need to cost more, and for TvP this will help but that's not close to enough Wouldn't these extra seconds mostly help Terrans to all-in before Protoss has 2/2 even better?
Sure. But it also technically will help a Terran who is deciding to play a macrogame not be 4 full upgrades behind. Which is definitely substantial but perhaps not enough to drive that decision considering you will still be behind on upgrades just not as bad and moving toward an inferior ultimate tech.. in the end i think they will need to either reduce chrono or nerf substantially protoss early game aggressive options so that Terran if deciding to macro can do so without investing so much into defense. Would need to figure out a way to do it without making 1 base all ins from Terran stronger tho.
Also to be frank im not sure 55 total extra seconds is enough to make a real difference but its a step in the right direction.
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Can't balance TvP early game with current Cyclones. Old Cyclone was integral to keeping Toss honest and allowing an even macrogame. Cyclone revert needed.
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On March 13 2019 05:33 Charoisaur wrote:
Can't balance TvP early game with current Cyclones. Old Cyclone was integral to keeping Toss honest and allowing an even macrogame. Cyclone revert needed.
Terran did fine with this cyclone in the early game 3 years ago. And it wasn't a really key unit for TvP in 2017 either, even after the redesign. So maybe the problem isn't that but a combination of widow mine nerf, stalker buff, like half a dozen charge buffs and a chrono boost buff where the other macro mechanics went untouched and maybe one of that could be addressed.
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the nydus nerf is good. That should hopefully be enough. Each worker will now do two more damage per attack so protoss won't have to rush an immortal or something like that just to survive as long as there's a zealot or oracle or something like that around.
That TvP nerf seems... kinda inconsequential? It does add up over all 3 but with chronoboost it won't be that big of an impact.
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On March 13 2019 05:02 BadHabits wrote:
i swear balance team is just one guy in silver league who watches parting stream
I mean that patch seems to make sense to me, what's wrong with it?
The upgrade decrease time maybe but it's been talk a lot in the community
Changing the chrono would be more tricky with the timming and all, plus it's a nice way to have a skill base macro mechanics for protoss and give some variety to the build.
On March 13 2019 05:33 Charoisaur wrote:
Can't balance TvP early game with current Cyclones. Old Cyclone was integral to keeping Toss honest and allowing an even macrogame. Cyclone revert needed.
Oh please no, the old cyclone was a nightmare, proxy meta was one of the stupidest ever, and you can of course balance around the new one.
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*insert obligatory mech-still-not-viable-in-TvP complaint here*
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On March 13 2019 05:49 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 05:02 BadHabits wrote:
i swear balance team is just one guy in silver league who watches parting stream I mean that patch seems to make sense to me, what's wrong with it? The upgrade decrease time maybe but it's been talk a lot in the community Changing the chrono would be more tricky with the timming and all, plus it's a nice way to have a skill base macro mechanics for protoss and give some variety to the build. Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 05:33 Charoisaur wrote:
Can't balance TvP early game with current Cyclones. Old Cyclone was integral to keeping Toss honest and allowing an even macrogame. Cyclone revert needed. Oh please no, the old cyclone was a nightmare, proxy meta was one of the stupidest ever, and you can of course balance around the new one.
Yah I hated that meta as well..but one of the issues now is that toss can still play on a wide range vs terran and there is really only a narrow one having any success for terran in a 2 base all in. Toss can still play super aggro so T has to respect it but the greedy macro style is just as strong if not stronger. The proxy meta was born out of the problem we have now the new clone removed that solution so Terrans are back on the pre proxy 2 base all in meta that really wasnt working long term.
The disrupter and tempest coming about created a huge problem in Tvp late game. The chrono amplified it but i thiink its a problem independant of chrono. Back in the day robo tech could be countered by vikings and storm by ghosts so you had more of an even footing ultimate tech. Now if you go vikings they become useless supply when disrupters are built in place of colo. Liberators are good vs both but get countered by tempest which there really isnt a reply. Thor i would guess is whats intended but its just not good enough to try to be offensive with. Liberator is too strong without tempest but too weak with it. If vikings werent so slow and didnt get shredded by storm maybe a lib viking combo does it but I dont know how to practically apply a change to that lol.
Its like we are pregnant with this toss now and there is no way to fix it lolol.
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WCS
