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This thread is starting to get out of hand. From this point on, if you are going to post statistics and/or data as a way to back up your statements about racial imbalances, then please post the sources as well. |
I really like the direction these changes go. I think the upgrade change on cyber isn't really needed but I can see why they would do that as it is just more consistent with the race. However; there still lies the problem with boosting terran macro incentive. The best way to do this really without breaking the MU or making 2base all ins stronger is to touch on units not used often in them.
Suggestion 1: Giving liberator +5 damage in siegemode
Pros: This requires Terran to only get +1 Ship weapons to 2 shot stalkers which make 2-2-1 pushes (Mainmidgame push) a lot stronger.
Cons: Protoss now have an earlier threat to deal with but my argument for this would be that toss held up fine vs Liberators back when they didn't need any upgrades so I think like this they will be fine as liberators will require time still to be built up. This just makes the transition to lategame a bit harder and gives terran more room to catch up. I suppose liberator harass too would be scary but you would have to budget your libs on whether you want to push or harass.
Suggestion 2: Give widowmine cloak back and revert build time
Pros: Toss cannot open twilight first and but can still go stargate/robo. Ultimately this delays twilight and most 7:00 pushes will hit toss with them having either Blink or Charge instead of both. (Phases out heavy gateway style too)
Cons: This is extremely unhealthy for the game and low level players and you basically have a cancer unit in TvP early game. TvZ should remain roughly the same with a small adaptation period for zergs again.
Suggestion 3: Remove Interference matrix bring back P.D.D
Pros: TvT is back to normal and banshee play should see more light however big adaptation period for terrans. TvP we have the ability to stop stalker shots and tempest shots but we can no longer disable colossi's or immortals for 2base all ins so that is something to consider
Cons: P.D.D encourages turtle play. Zergs literally don't have an answer to killing units like the B.C if you just drop P.D.D. Corruptors stop working, Hydras stop working, vipers cannot deal enough with parabomb, Infestors are detected by the raven and cancer turtle terran is back.
A big cost and weight ordeal but you also have to keep in mind that seeker missile is removed and anti armor missile does no damage. Also this is a nerf so my suggestion is with this route to also maybe buff mules maybe through duration or minerals gathered. - The mule buff would probably require a nerf to terran 2base all in or your 2base all ins would just hit faster and stronger.
Suggestion 4: Buff support units (Raven, Medivac, Liberator, Cyclone, Viking)
How?: Medivac heal range +1, Raven auto turret range back to 3 (Zergs can deal with this its not an unfair thing anymore), Liberator build time -5 (Makes amassing them a tad bit easier), Cyclone build time -3 (To compensate for liberators building faster), Viking attack mechanic (Give it a better kiting mechanic similar to the banshees in how the banshee can attack and slide. This makes micro'ing the already difficult to micro viking more rewarding to people who have the apm or effort to do so)
Pros: Slight terran buffs that lead to situations that I have not tested only really thought of but I think would be more interesting than just nerfing the other 2 races to boring. Medivac range would help vs queens and AA turrets, Raven gives more openers in TvZ and TvT (harass-wise), Liberator can be massed and made faster (43 seconds is a lot), Cyclone can be made slightly faster to help with liberator (Shouldn't affect TvT/TvZ/TvP that much), Viking has smoother kiting for those who put the effort in to micro it.
Cons: These are buffs you have to test it on the ladder or on a P.T.R to see if they impact the game greatly or not.
Anyways those are just my suggestions whether they are good or not is up to people to maybe test or for blizzard to consider and test. I think the buffing alternative is much better than the nerfing alternative. Terran from what I know is not ahead in TvZ and TvP winrates so it shouldn't result too greatly in a landslide. Now that being said not all of these changes should be put in maybe like 1 or 2 of these only.
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On March 13 2019 05:40 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 05:33 Charoisaur wrote:
Can't balance TvP early game with current Cyclones. Old Cyclone was integral to keeping Toss honest and allowing an even macrogame. Cyclone revert needed. Terran did fine with this cyclone in the early game 3 years ago. And it wasn't a really key unit for TvP in 2017 either, even after the redesign. So maybe the problem isn't that but a combination of widow mine nerf, stalker buff, like half a dozen charge buffs and a chrono boost buff where the other macro mechanics went untouched and maybe one of that could be addressed.
i suggest they add an upgrade to unlock siege mode and ravager and then nerf chrono boost for gud
equal economy could open some opportunities to transition into BCs
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At the Diamond 2 level, PvZ is really hard. Putting on pressure without losing my stuff... I have to know how to use oracles and phoenix, warp prism and archons, clicking and maneuvering the whole time while macroing buildings in specific locations. For that part of the MU, zerg just has to defend with queens and roaches. and his macro consists of just getting more drones and putting his buildings anywhere.
That's just at my level.
So, I think nydus is good for me, but all forge upgrades taking longer seems dumb. I'd rather have the upgrades just cost more.
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What's the meaning of reducing some armors of Nydus?
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On March 13 2019 12:11 FBTsingLoong wrote:
What's the meaning of reducing some armors of Nydus?
"To help remedy this, we’re reducing the Nydus Worms’ armor while they emerge to give small groups of basic units—like Zerglings, Zealots, and Marines—an easier time taking them out, provided they discover them within a reasonable time frame."
Edit:
Chronoboost is an identity for protoss, like inject/creep is for zerg and mule/scan is for terran.
love the direction for this patch.
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This is a good change Blizzard. Nydus was a little too strong. As for TvsP, Terran is at a disadvantage so this should help to balance the matchup.
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Honestly the biggest problem Terrans gave (other than their ridiculous whining - and no, you don’t get to discount Maru’s Games - he does indeed belong to your race - is pretty simple. Ravens. Not enough Terrans are using them in their games. Terrans not using Ravens are like Protoss not using High Templar. You’ve got one of the best units in the game a good portion of Terrans are neglecting to use it. And I can’t for the life of me understand why. Especially in TvP when Anti Armor Missile and Interference Matrix can literally change the fight in their favor in a few seconds.
If you’re going to complain about lack of success you don’t get to discount when Terrans actually do win even if it is the same one three times.
And just for the record, I am a Random player. :-) At least for now.
#ImbalanceIsOnlyInYourHead
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On March 13 2019 13:04 StarcraftSquall wrote:
Honestly the biggest problem Terrans gave (other than their ridiculous whining - and no, you don’t get to discount Maru’s Games - he does indeed belong to your race - is pretty simple. Ravens. Not enough Terrans are using them in their games. Terrans not using Ravens are like Protoss not using High Templar. You’ve got one of the best units in the game a good portion of Terrans are neglecting to use it. And I can’t for the life of me understand why. Especially in TvP when Anti Armor Missile and Interference Matrix can literally change the fight in their favor in a few seconds.
If you’re going to complain about lack of success you don’t get to discount when Terrans actually do win even if it is the same one three times.
And just for the record, I am a Random player. :-) At least for now.
#ImbalanceIsOnlyInYourHead
Feedback
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So according to the Aligulac latest period, Protoss an almost 7% advantage over Terran while Zerg has an almost 4% advantage over Terran:
PvT 165–127 (56.51%)
TvZ 200–232 (46.30%)
http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/
(since March 13 is the last day of this period, the link above will switch to the new period soon and the stats will reset)
Clearly, Terran is in a weak spot right now as per the Aligulac stats. And you can't say that we should only focus on the GSL where Terran is doing decent in the Round of 16, because that is a small sample size. You need to look at the larger sample size and include all the other different tournaments, such as Aligulac is doing. And the Aligulac stats are showing that Terran is struggling, against Protoss and Zerg, but especially against Protoss.
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The increase to protoss buff research time is a good start. I've heard many terrans complain about this so it is one less thing for us to whine about.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 13 2019 13:04 StarcraftSquall wrote:
Honestly the biggest problem Terrans gave (other than their ridiculous whining - and no, you don’t get to discount Maru’s Games - he does indeed belong to your race - is pretty simple. Ravens. Not enough Terrans are using them in their games. Terrans not using Ravens are like Protoss not using High Templar. You’ve got one of the best units in the game a good portion of Terrans are neglecting to use it. And I can’t for the life of me understand why. Especially in TvP when Anti Armor Missile and Interference Matrix can literally change the fight in their favor in a few seconds.
If you’re going to complain about lack of success you don’t get to discount when Terrans actually do win even if it is the same one three times.
And just for the record, I am a Random player. :-) At least for now.
#ImbalanceIsOnlyInYourHead
Yeah, it's not like they live from playing SC2, what do they know...
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Terran checking in, can't really complain. Nydus wasn't too bad for Terran, assuming it was scouted and the first tank made it out in time. Still infuriating though that even a few seconds late resulted in a gutted main and pretty much gg. Watching Toss and other Zerg deal with it though was nothing short of just plain goofy.
I like the upgrade change. It's been really easy for Terran to fall behind in the matchup. I think the biggest issue is how it'll affect PvZ.
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On March 13 2019 05:18 TKL wrote:
I see lots of terraan think the issue of TvP is the economy and i'm going to go ahead and assume they are right so rather than try to nerf the toss economy, how about be buff the terran economy ?
It might not be enough but currently the terran supply depot takes 21 seconds to be built against 18 for toss and Zerg, maybe if it took 18 seconds as well for terran to build their supply, it would allow the scvs building depots to gain about 3 seconds of mineral mining. I don't think it would be quite enough to actually balance the match up but i think it would be a much more constructive step forward than nerfing protoss upgrades wich will also have an impact in PvZ
What do you guys think ?
Interesting idea but I don't think this would have much effect on the eco. Imo Terran needs an observing unit just like Toss and Zerg got one.
Zerg: 100M Overlord 150/100 Lair 50/50 morph to Overseer
Toss: Robotics facility 150/100 Observer 25/75
Terran: Burn a scan and sacrafice 240-270 minerals that the mule would mine otherwise or build a raven which means Rax 150 Factory 150/100 Starport 150/100 Tech Lab 50/25 Raven 100/200
So killing creep or killing observers is much more expensive for Terran.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 13 2019 16:30 Rowrin wrote:
Terran checking in, can't really complain. Nydus wasn't too bad for Terran, assuming it was scouted and the first tank made it out in time. Still infuriating though that even a few seconds late resulted in a gutted main and pretty much gg. Watching Toss and other Zerg deal with it though was nothing short of just plain goofy.
I like the upgrade change. It's been really easy for Terran to fall behind in the matchup. I think the biggest issue is how it'll affect PvZ.
Hmm, Immortals don't care imo. Chargelots have the biggest impact via they charge, or...? So the impact I can see is on stalkers(in PvZ?), adepts and archons. It shouldn't have big impact IMO, but I haven;t touched my Protoss for a while now.
On March 13 2019 16:53 spenzer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 05:18 TKL wrote:
I see lots of terraan think the issue of TvP is the economy and i'm going to go ahead and assume they are right so rather than try to nerf the toss economy, how about be buff the terran economy ?
It might not be enough but currently the terran supply depot takes 21 seconds to be built against 18 for toss and Zerg, maybe if it took 18 seconds as well for terran to build their supply, it would allow the scvs building depots to gain about 3 seconds of mineral mining. I don't think it would be quite enough to actually balance the match up but i think it would be a much more constructive step forward than nerfing protoss upgrades wich will also have an impact in PvZ
What do you guys think ? Interesting idea but I don't think this would have much effect on the eco. Imo Terran needs an observing unit just like Toss and Zerg got one. Zerg: 100M Overlord 150/100 Lair 50/50 morph to Overseer Toss: Robotics facility 150/100 Observer 25/75 Terran: Burn a scan and sacrafice 240-270 minerals that the mule would mine otherwise or build a raven which means Rax 150 Factory 150/100 Starport 150/100 Tech Lab 50/25 Raven 100/200 So killing creep or killing observers is much more expensive for Terran.
IMO the issue is that you need a Starport with the techlab addon and this slows your medevac production. And you need those much more than raven to be aggresive. Or a banshee. Raven is useless in the early game compared to these two units and the more the game progresses the more you need other units from the starport than the Raven. Raven needs buffs to be viable over medevac or banshee. And I don't see that happening as this would require very gentle approach.
I agree with the spotter idea though.
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On March 13 2019 04:56 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 04:50 Mlord wrote:
Nydus need to cost more, and for TvP this will help but that's not close to enough Wouldn't these extra seconds mostly help Terrans to all-in before Protoss has 2/2 even better?
I think Elentos hits the nail on the head here: this change will help terran (any direct nerf like this helps) and will help make the TvP matchup statistics look better (i.e. bring them closer to 50%), it won't change anything as to how this matchup is played because none of the underlying problems are solved.
Terran will still do anything in his power to dodge the lategame and doesn't really have powerful cheese at his disposition to keep a protoss honest, so this'll lead only to more "YOLO-pull-the-boys-in-the-midgame" builds. Which are as boring to watch as they are dull to play. But hey, at least the stats will look better...
Personnally though, as someone who used to play mostly macro in TvP (and getting absolutely smashed in 80% of my games), I welcome the change. I've since then switched to cheesing (proxy tanks + libs), which, at my level, is netting me a surprising amount of wins. This change might make me go back to try and play macro.
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On March 13 2019 14:22 xelnaga_empire wrote:So according to the Aligulac latest period, Protoss an almost 7% advantage over Terran while Zerg has an almost 4% advantage over Terran: PvT 165–127 (56.51%) TvZ 200–232 (46.30%) http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/(since March 13 is the last day of this period, the link above will switch to the new period soon and the stats will reset) Clearly, Terran is in a weak spot right now as per the Aligulac stats. And you can't say that we should only focus on the GSL where Terran is doing decent in the Round of 16, because that is a small sample size. You need to look at the larger sample size and include all the other different tournaments, such as Aligulac is doing. And the Aligulac stats are showing that Terran is struggling, against Protoss and Zerg, but especially against Protoss.
Across the whole patch TvZ is actually the most imbalanced matchup at 45,78% according to Aligulac. I don't think the slight nydus nerf will be enough to remedy that.
Then again there were lots of games won on nydus all-ins, so maybe I'm wrong here. Only time will tell.
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The Nydus change is ok but I would rather see a price increase. 50/50 cost just encourages spamming the nydus worm over and over again.
TvP have two main problems:
1) Protoss eco is stronger than Terrans in the early game and in the midgame.
2) Protoss late game is stronger than Terrans due to
a) More Splash damage and
b) More supply effecient units.
So I suggest the following:
1) Nexus starts without energy,
2) Disruptors range lowered so it is the same as siege tanks,
3) High Templers supply increased to 3.
This would solve both the Protoss economic advantage and make the late game more even. Disruptors getting the same range as tanks would also make mech a option in TvP, at least on some maps.
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Austria24417 Posts
These changes are pretty dreadful. Not only will they not address the core issues in TvP - they will only strengthen existing Terran timing attacks - they also straight up nerf a lot of current Protoss playstyles in PvZ, a matchup that didn't need Protoss nerfs at all. In fact, PvZ is currently at 47% according to Aligulac. Also might deter players from the just evolving expand into forge playstyles in PvP, reducing diversity in that matchup again after significantly raising it with recent changes.
PvT needs a much broader revamp. These changes don't cut it one bit, and have lots of potentially detrimental effects in other matchups that haven't been considered at all it seems.
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Hello, I am opisska, a very bad Zerg player and I approve these changes. Nydus is stupid as it is ans toss upgrades are silly fast.
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-ok changes for nydus and TvP
-still won't be sufficient for a balanced macro TvP
-doses this not outright nerf the actual PvZ robo immo archon sentry +2 Timing Attack ?
Imo, because TvZ bio is hard too, and to no affect PvZ too much, we should buff terrans bio-openings (without buffing frontal bio in fight) more than nerfing protoss.
ideas : stim, shield build time, add-ons cost, medivacs energy, no more friendly fire on windows mine, ebay build time, orbital morph time, etc. To not make TvP 2 bases all-ins too strong we could eventually nerf tank or raven-vs-toss afterwards.
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EPT
