EPTI think nuke should probably be more visible (maps are much bigger now and there's far more going on, it's far harder to find a nuke dot than it is to cast a nuke when they're spammed in lategame) and/or cost 150 gas as well
Community Update - March 12, 2019 - Page 11
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This thread is starting to get out of hand. From this point on, if you are going to post statistics and/or data as a way to back up your statements about racial imbalances, then please post the sources as well. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
I think nuke should probably be more visible (maps are much bigger now and there's far more going on, it's far harder to find a nuke dot than it is to cast a nuke when they're spammed in lategame) and/or cost 150 gas as well | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On March 24 2019 12:40 Cyro wrote: I don't enjoy tempests in general, they're pretty fun to watch and play with in small numbers but they've been used in some really toxic ways when much of the race's power has been left with them in the past (although you could say the same for brood lords) I think nuke should probably be more visible (maps are much bigger now and there's far more going on, it's far harder to find a nuke dot than it is to cast a nuke when they're spammed in lategame) and/or cost 150 gas as well I dont really like tempests either. Protoss compositions/strategies usually dont involve firing from a safe distance, picking away at the enemy. It's about a synergistic deathball moving out on the map and taking the fight to the enemy, constantly reinforcing with the warp prism. The thing is, the tempest was blizzard's answer to protoss having no solid answers to strong air compositions. What is a protoss player supposed to do against broodlords, ranged libs, and even bc heavy compositions? None of the robo units can touch air, gateway units (stalker sentry) get destroyed despite being able to attack air units, and high templars and carriers are unreliable. I always thought they should just remove the tempest and give the protoss a good all-rounder backbone unit. I dont think it can be the stalker, since any buff to the fighting capabilities of the stalker would make it broken in the early game against terran. That just leaves the immortal....give it an air attack so that protoss can trade effectively with brood lords, range libs, etc without relying on tempests | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
On March 24 2019 11:31 Ben... wrote: Yes, and another thing that needs to be factored in is that the feedback nerf has had a rather big impact on infestor vs. HT interactions. Now that infestors don't die to feedback, it's much less risky to run them forward to try and get a fungal off on the Protoss air army. We haven't really seen a lot of pro PvZs hit the late game yet because of nydus and other reasons, but I do think if what I've seen on pro streams is any indication, it could get pretty rough. It seems like most pro protoss players are now trying to end the matchup via all-ins or timings before broodlord/infestor can get out. I also saw a Zerg playing lategame against puck utilize the new nydus to harass bases while still defending the main infestor/broodlord/corruptor/mass static army (they have a nydus head with the main army and then have others pop up near protoss bases) and it looked incredibly tough to deal with since all ground units could hit a base and then be back to defend within a few seconds if the protoss tried to attack the main army/static defence area. The tempest in its current state is actually pretty weak against Zerg now. It's no longer fast and agile enough to poke with safely, but it also has such low health that it can get picked off easily once vipers are out and there's a few spore crawlers with the army. It's in the same boat as the stalker where they made a drastic change to it that was good, but slightly too good, but instead of nerfing it a little bit to dial it back they basically split the difference between the old version and new version and it's not good for either the new use case or the old use case. U forget that feedback also takes away energy besides dealing damage. I think that this feedback nerf seems legit. Imagine EMP killing your HT instead draining them from energy. It's BS to loose 150 gas caster in one click without any counterplay. Infestors are just not dead unit thanks to that, and with funghal nerfed over the years it's not a problem. Everything that causes more micro in engagements is good. U must look out for funghals, and I must look out and evade storms. How can this be bad for the game? It's bad for ppl that want to "a-move" through opponent's army. "I also saw a Zerg playing lategame against puck utilize the new nydus to harass bases while still defending the main" And it's something wrong? I saw Protoss defending the main and swarming opponent's base with warpins from warprism. So should they nerfed that too? | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On March 24 2019 16:43 pvsnp wrote: Why are people still talking about balance when we have changes going live tomorrow? why not lol On March 24 2019 16:26 hiroshOne wrote: Immortals with air attack XDDDDDD I should really stop reading "balance topics". They get more and more ridiculous... look dude. i'm just giving a possible alternative to probably the most poorly thought out/designed unit in the game | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
On March 24 2019 16:43 pvsnp wrote: Why are people still talking about balance when we have changes going live tomorrow? It's SC2, people talk design/balance changes from the moment they're announced until the game dies. This discussion happens every change and in recent history there have been several reversions or modifications to changes because of discussion led by teamliquid.net. This site is and has consistently been the focus for such discussion because the other starcraft community hubs (twitch, reddit, bnet etc) do not attempt to moderate civil discussion about the game design and balance. | ||
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MrWayne
219 Posts
On March 24 2019 12:39 BerserkSword wrote: the worst part about the new tempest is that it isnt even really split between the old and new versions. the first buff was giving it speed in exchange for durability. the speed was then nerfed, but none of the durability was given back tempests get killed so easily now. they shouldve at least given it some HP back imo To be fair the Tempest is still faster than the old Tempest and it's also cheaper in both minerals/gas and supply. I think the Tempest is fine as it is, if Protoss struggles against Zerg then Blizzard should revisit the carrier. The carrier isn't really utilized currently and a buff to the carrier wouldn't have a big effect on TvP because the carrier is historically not that good vs Terran. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On March 24 2019 16:19 hiroshOne wrote: It does take away energy, but only from one infestor. If you have a group of infestors like is normal in the lategame, they are now much more likely to get a good fungal off without having to risk most infestors actually dying, and one fungal can basically end an entire protoss air army since once one fungal lands, chaining more fungals or using vipers to pull units into the static defence becomes much easier.U forget that feedback also takes away energy besides dealing damage. I think that this feedback nerf seems legit. Imagine EMP killing your HT instead draining them from energy. It's BS to loose 150 gas caster in one click without any counterplay. Infestors are just not dead unit thanks to that, and with funghal nerfed over the years it's not a problem. Everything that causes more micro in engagements is good. U must look out for funghals, and I must look out and evade storms. How can this be bad for the game? It's bad for ppl that want to "a-move" through opponent's army. And my point with the puck game was that, because of how fast nydus loads and unloads, a zerg can now kill a base and be back to defend the main army before the opponent has a chance to respond. It's basically like the arbiter's recall ability from BW but with the ability to do a second recall back at no cost or risk once the damage is done. I still think they're going to need to tone down the unload speed of nydus a bit. The armour change will help with rushes but the unload speed is what makes it too strong. Both medivacs and warp prisms have slower unload speeds than load speeds for a reason. | ||
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skdsk
138 Posts
Nerfings queens to cost 175-200minerals is decent solution i think, building mass queens should be a choice the same way as building mass gates or raxes..turrets..bunkers..cannons..shield batteries..gettings few is good, but massing shouldnt be viable strategyand if you mass them it should cost you actual economy.. User was warned for this post. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
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skdsk
138 Posts
On March 25 2019 03:38 Cyro wrote: They do play a major role in all zerg matchups; common to see lots built and used for everything from very early defense to hive armies. Good players like Serral also often walk half a dozen queens across the map to sync with attacks. They're pretty awesome now for a 150 mineral, 2 supply unit that doesn't require larvae to make and they also have a lot of synergy with the newly buffed nydus since it allows them to bypass their main weakness of mobility off creep. i think part of the problem comes from the fact you produce them at hatchery and doesnt cost larvae, so even thou it takes 36sec to make, zerg has 3 hatcheries at 4min in the game. Maybe make them cost larvae like normal zerg unit, sure then he can mass them more easily, but he can already mass them anyway. If they cost larvae atleast it will cut in to zerg economy.. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On March 25 2019 03:45 skdsk wrote: i think part of the problem comes from the fact you produce them at hatchery and doesnt cost larvae, so even thou it takes 36sec to make, zerg has 3 hatcheries at 4min in the game. Maybe make them cost larvae like normal zerg unit, sure then he can mass them more easily, but he can already mass them anyway. If they cost larvae atleast it will cut in to zerg economy.. You can't exactly mass queens, that's nonsense. You need queens mostly for early-mid game and in the early game every queen means there are no 3 possible drones. Many Zergs mass them so they can defend some nasty cheeses - e.g. anything THAT FLIES. Because the damn Zerg has the only AA unit in ... yeah,  | ||
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Hvvacha
82 Posts
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
What find strange ist that since the times of MC and Parting we don't really have a protoss savior, a protoss being able to win consistently over a longer period of time. I don't mean winning every tournament that he enters, but something along the lines of winning the one or other tourney in 2016, then winning some in 2017 and then retire with a win in 2018. Classic is probably the closest thing protoss has right now in that regard and according to his liquipedia he won two big tourneys in 2015 and he won the GSL super tourney towards the end of 2018. Stats ist another player that comes to mind. Since MC is arguably still the most succesful protoss player, I tend to not agree with the position that playing protoss is so easy, forgiving and powerful as some people in this thread claim to. From watching the games I don't think that the current balance is in such a bad state, maybe Zerg should be nerfed slightly, since they have an edge in both matchups for some months. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On March 25 2019 21:37 Cyro wrote: Changes didn't go live today, at least not yet. Do they usually change later than the weekly mutation? They're usually not on Mondays at all. But it's also different by region I think. Could still be a few hours. Might even have to wait till tomorrow for EU. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
So it is a game design problem in TvP: Terran has to rely on timing attacks because Protoss endgame is clearly stronger. However, their timing attacks are clearly effective. So any nerf to Protoss late game should be balanced by a compensatory buff to Protoss early game to maintain the 50/50 win rate we have now. In the past, Blizzard hasn't done that. They nerfed Adepts and removed Khaydarin Amulet when TvP was balanced, which shifted the match up dramatically in the favor of Terrran. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
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Valyrian
41 Posts
But Terran and Zerg both have powerful air to ground in the late game that basically can only be dealt with using another air unit. Which made me think that it might be cooler to retool Void Rays a bit to fill this niche? Make them scale better with weapon upgrades and add a Fleet Beacon upgrade that increases their speed to make them more microable. Maybe something cool could come out of an interaction where Void Rays have to dive in and take out a bunch of Liberators and then retreat when prismatic alignment runs out. | ||
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