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This thread is starting to get out of hand. From this point on, if you are going to post statistics and/or data as a way to back up your statements about racial imbalances, then please post the sources as well. |
On March 17 2019 14:52 BerserkSword wrote:
It's almost as if youre all still ignoring the fact that the lack of Protoss success in 2018 is not made up of isolated, infrequent events. It went on throughout the whole year and happened to basically all the top protoss players.
Youre right random stuff can happen, but that does not explain why it has been so widespread.
You are the one trying to spin ridiculous narratives of why Protoss legends collectively got stomped throughout 2018 and into 2019
excuses I've heard in this thread
-they inherently less skilled
-Maru and serral are gods
-Protoss players didnt practice as much
-shit happens, it's a coincidence
the "other metrics" that supposedly supersede the fact that only 2 out of 14 premier tournaments were won by protoss players are nowhere near as important. Second place is nice and all, but the point of these tournaments is to win them
You speak as though there were some magical quota system that mandates all three races each win 1/3 of all tournaments. There isn't. Even in a perfectly balanced game, things like bracket luck or individual playstyle would still be huge factors–and there are balance changes of various size throughout the year too. Like it or not, Protoss winning fewer tournaments is not a metric that means much at all in the face of variable skill levels, variable brackets, variable styles, and yes, variable balance.
And even if the game was actually in some mythical perfect state of balance, it still wouldn't be a meaningful metric. That's not how statistics works. Just try flipping a coin 14 times. I'm willing to bet that you don't get exactly 7 heads and 7 tails–and even if you did, try flipping it another 14.
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On March 17 2019 15:08 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2019 14:52 BerserkSword wrote:
It's almost as if youre all still ignoring the fact that the lack of Protoss success in 2018 is not made up of isolated, infrequent events. It went on throughout the whole year and happened to basically all the top protoss players.
Youre right random stuff can happen, but that does not explain why it has been so widespread.
You are the one trying to spin ridiculous narratives of why Protoss legends collectively got stomped throughout 2018 and into 2019
excuses I've heard in this thread
-they inherently less skilled
-Maru and serral are gods
-Protoss players didnt practice as much
-shit happens, it's a coincidence
the "other metrics" that supposedly supersede the fact that only 2 out of 14 premier tournaments were won by protoss players are nowhere near as important. Second place is nice and all, but the point of these tournaments is to win them You speak as though there were some magical quota system that mandates all three races each win 1/3 of all tournaments. There isn't. Even in a perfectly balanced game, things like bracket luck or individual playstyle would still be huge factors–and there are balance changes of various size throughout the year too. Like it or not, Protoss winning fewer tournaments is not a metric that means much at all in the face of variable skill levels, variable brackets, variable styles, and yes, variable balance. And even if the game was actually in some mythical perfect state of balance, it still wouldn't be a meaningful metric. That's not how statistics works. Just try flipping a coin 14 times. I'm willing to bet that you don't get exactly 7 heads and 7 tails–and even if you did, try flipping it another 14.
you built a strawman
I never said protoss needs to win 33.33333% of premier tournaments lol
we can draw conclusions based on the results though. the raw data shows that from 2018 to present, protoss have been struggling hard to win a premier tournament. We could ask ourselves why this this happening
the highest skilled protoss players in the world are regularly getting stomped. some eliminated by historically weaker players of other races (scarlet sweeping sOs, reynor eliminating classic, special eliminating classic, cure eliminating stats etc)
the race is struggling at the highest level, and the only thing its met with is nerf after nerf.
you can blame the lack of results on the players, coincidence, and/or the race.
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You keep repeating the same old tired arguments while refusing to address the counter arguments addressed to you. Scarlett SpeCial and Reynor are top 4 foreigners, foreigners can actually compete with koreans, wake up this isn't 2014 anymore, your "protoss legends" have fallen, get a grip.
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On March 17 2019 16:51 fastr wrote:
You keep repeating the same old tired arguments while refusing to address the counter arguments addressed to you. Scarlett SpeCial and Reynor are top 4 foreigners, foreigners can actually compete with koreans, wake up this isn't 2014 anymore, your "protoss legends" have fallen, get a grip.
yea. the protoss legends have fallen because they are playing a neutered race
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The time you guys spend hunting down numbers and cherrypicking should be spent playing. Race switch and play against each other. Whoever loses will gain insight. The ones who win will have to seek their insight on ladder.
And if you try excuse yourself with "that guy is a league above me" etc then you're just acknowledging that skill plays a bigger part than you try to make it seem.
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On March 17 2019 17:51 WaesumNinja wrote:
The time you guys spend hunting down numbers and cherrypicking should be spent playing. Race switch and play against each other. Whoever loses will gain insight. The ones who win will have to seek their insight on ladder.
And if you try excuse yourself with "that guy is a league above me" etc then you're just acknowledging that skill plays a bigger part than you try to make it seem.
He's just trying to copy terran whine tactics but doesn't have the game knowledge to back it up and keeps linking of videos of protoss doing dumb things and calling imbalance. Its a tragedy for SC2 that rain stopped playing, he would've been the maru/serral of protoss, they still have to bring him up when someone says macro protoss and stats is busy coming in second on multiple tournaments.
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i play terran
On March 17 2019 18:09 Doko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2019 17:51 WaesumNinja wrote:
The time you guys spend hunting down numbers and cherrypicking should be spent playing. Race switch and play against each other. Whoever loses will gain insight. The ones who win will have to seek their insight on ladder.
And if you try excuse yourself with "that guy is a league above me" etc then you're just acknowledging that skill plays a bigger part than you try to make it seem. He's just trying to copy terran whine tactics but doesn't have the game knowledge to back it up and keeps linking of videos of protoss doing dumb things and calling imbalance. Its a tragedy for SC2 that rain stopped playing, he would've been the maru/serral of protoss, they still have to bring him up when someone says macro protoss and stats is busy coming in second on multiple tournaments.
LOL @ this guy
GSL caliber PvT = protoss players doing dumb things
funny thing is that rain used to say the same things i'm saying
terran OP
protoss is too unforgiving
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On March 17 2019 18:11 BerserkSword wrote:i play terran Show nested quote +On March 17 2019 18:09 Doko wrote:On March 17 2019 17:51 WaesumNinja wrote:
The time you guys spend hunting down numbers and cherrypicking should be spent playing. Race switch and play against each other. Whoever loses will gain insight. The ones who win will have to seek their insight on ladder.
And if you try excuse yourself with "that guy is a league above me" etc then you're just acknowledging that skill plays a bigger part than you try to make it seem. He's just trying to copy terran whine tactics but doesn't have the game knowledge to back it up and keeps linking of videos of protoss doing dumb things and calling imbalance. Its a tragedy for SC2 that rain stopped playing, he would've been the maru/serral of protoss, they still have to bring him up when someone says macro protoss and stats is busy coming in second on multiple tournaments. LOL @ this guy GSL caliber PvT = protoss players doing dumb things funny thing is that rain used to say the same things i'm saying terran OP protoss is too unforgiving
You dont tho..unless u mean u play at like 3K mmr lol. Protoss is easily the most forgiving / least required micro/ multitask race. You can literally recall your army if you are caught out.. where as T or Z can lose a game because of by far the stupidest unit in the game that costs no gas warp prism. You can spam out shield batteries the second u scout a push coming...the fuck are u talking about "too unforgiving?" You should at least attempt to explain your lunacy. On no planet in no universe did someone like Rain say or have anything in common with someone like you. Very obviously a 4k protoss player who desperately wants to hold on to his diamond 2 rank.
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France12861 Posts
On March 17 2019 16:29 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2019 15:08 pvsnp wrote:On March 17 2019 14:52 BerserkSword wrote:
It's almost as if youre all still ignoring the fact that the lack of Protoss success in 2018 is not made up of isolated, infrequent events. It went on throughout the whole year and happened to basically all the top protoss players.
Youre right random stuff can happen, but that does not explain why it has been so widespread.
You are the one trying to spin ridiculous narratives of why Protoss legends collectively got stomped throughout 2018 and into 2019
excuses I've heard in this thread
-they inherently less skilled
-Maru and serral are gods
-Protoss players didnt practice as much
-shit happens, it's a coincidence
the "other metrics" that supposedly supersede the fact that only 2 out of 14 premier tournaments were won by protoss players are nowhere near as important. Second place is nice and all, but the point of these tournaments is to win them You speak as though there were some magical quota system that mandates all three races each win 1/3 of all tournaments. There isn't. Even in a perfectly balanced game, things like bracket luck or individual playstyle would still be huge factors–and there are balance changes of various size throughout the year too. Like it or not, Protoss winning fewer tournaments is not a metric that means much at all in the face of variable skill levels, variable brackets, variable styles, and yes, variable balance. And even if the game was actually in some mythical perfect state of balance, it still wouldn't be a meaningful metric. That's not how statistics works. Just try flipping a coin 14 times. I'm willing to bet that you don't get exactly 7 heads and 7 tails–and even if you did, try flipping it another 14. you built a strawman I never said protoss needs to win 33.33333% of premier tournaments lol we can draw conclusions based on the results though. the raw data shows that from 2018 to present, protoss have been struggling hard to win a premier tournament. We could ask ourselves why this this happening the highest skilled protoss players in the world are regularly getting stomped. some eliminated by historically weaker players of other races (scarlet sweeping sOs, reynor eliminating classic, special eliminating classic, cure eliminating stats etc) the race is struggling at the highest level, and the only thing its met with is nerf after nerf. you can blame the lack of results on the players, coincidence, and/or the race.
The Protoss players might have been stomped but in the end they won more money than terrans that year, so I won’t pity them very much.
Sure for legacy reasons you would want Protoss to win more tournaments but Serral and Maru were dominating and someone has to win in StarCraft 2, that’s why the metric of « who won the premier tournaments » is very flawed.
As for the random top Protoss being beaten by, according to you, inferior players, you can find stats like that for every race every year in different states of balance. For example TY lost to Creator soon after being in the finals of the GSL.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
Everyone, please read the public mod note before posting.
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I really hope they cancel the scheduled Protoss nerf, the race isn't doing nearly well enough to warrant a nerf.
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Based on what?
Well represented in code S ro16 (6/16). (Liquipedia)
50% of IEM ro8 thru final (Liquipedia)
Most represented race in top 200/500/1000/2000 global MMR (rankedftw).
No Korean Protoss in WESG.
Zerg also being nerfed.
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On March 17 2019 23:19 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2019 18:11 BerserkSword wrote:i play terran On March 17 2019 18:09 Doko wrote:On March 17 2019 17:51 WaesumNinja wrote:
The time you guys spend hunting down numbers and cherrypicking should be spent playing. Race switch and play against each other. Whoever loses will gain insight. The ones who win will have to seek their insight on ladder.
And if you try excuse yourself with "that guy is a league above me" etc then you're just acknowledging that skill plays a bigger part than you try to make it seem. He's just trying to copy terran whine tactics but doesn't have the game knowledge to back it up and keeps linking of videos of protoss doing dumb things and calling imbalance. Its a tragedy for SC2 that rain stopped playing, he would've been the maru/serral of protoss, they still have to bring him up when someone says macro protoss and stats is busy coming in second on multiple tournaments. LOL @ this guy GSL caliber PvT = protoss players doing dumb things funny thing is that rain used to say the same things i'm saying terran OP protoss is too unforgiving You dont tho..unless u mean u play at like 3K mmr lol. Protoss is easily the most forgiving / least required micro/ multitask race. You can literally recall your army if you are caught out.. where as T or Z can lose a game because of by far the stupidest unit in the game that costs no gas warp prism. You can spam out shield batteries the second u scout a push coming...the fuck are u talking about "too unforgiving?" You should at least attempt to explain your lunacy. On no planet in no universe did someone like Rain say or have anything in common with someone like you. Very obviously a 4k protoss player who desperately wants to hold on to his diamond 2 rank.
“You have to play like a machine to win as Protoss. You can't make a single mistake.”
-Rain
Source: https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/529530-protossed-or-how-we-gave-up-on-understanding
Rain also said that Terran was more OP than broodlord infestor lol. don't have a source for that yet, but I'll spare you since Rain's first quote already makes you look like a clown
It's comical that you have to resort to making things personal after your arguments are destroyed
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Actually that article Mizenhauer wrote is excellent. All the trolls saying that Protoss takes less skill, allows you to mess up, is reliant on gimmicks, is very forgiving, a-move, etc should read it
for example
As Maru was splitting his bio and vikings against storm while launching off emps, and Dark was controlling infestors, vipers and corruptors, it looked like the Protoss was just a-moving and spraying storms about willy-nilly. See that a few times and you might start to believe that’s all there is to Protoss once they reach the late game. But watch some of those fights again, because Protoss comes with its own set of challenges. A Protoss player is forced to manage blink stalkers, forcefields, shades, charge zealots, phoenixes and warp prisms in the mid game, many of these all at once. Enter the late game, and they have to control those same units as well as high templars, colossi and tempests. It looks easy because the result is so disastrous for the opponent, but it requires a level of proficiency that few in the world have maintained. Dark and maybe Rogue are the only Zergs who can handle similarly complex late game armies, but Protoss like Stats and Zest have been doing it for years to little acclaim. ShoWTimE made the easy look impossible against soO at GSL vs. The World when a recall that never happened left his carriers stranded and cost him what appeared to be a sure fire trip to the quarterfinals.
And if a Protoss player falls behind in a macro game? Good luck. Making up for a disadvantage is harder in Legacy of the Void than ever before and Protoss gets the worst end of it. Protoss is all about spreading resources in as many directions as possible in order to create an army with the complexity, force and size to conquer the opponent. When Dark’s zerglings killed herO’s third base in the WCS Global Finals, herO was forced to weigh every worker, unit, upgrade and tech structure to try to reclaim a position of strength. When a Zerg’s mineral line goes up in smoke, they hold down the “d” key and get back to business as usual as best they can. A Terran drops mules and continues production while seizing the initiative with drops and harassment. So what did herO do? Snipe a base, defend an attack and juggle archons in warp prisms like his life depended upon it. herO may not have had the classical tools available to the other races, but he allocated what he had precisely enough to allow him to take a third and stampede to victory with charge zealots.
this excerpt well explains what I've been sayin in this topic. Protoss army is extremely difficult to control (which is why I switched to Terran) and is punishing to play....and despite all of this and the fact that Protoss arent winning anything, it's only being met with nerf after nerf
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On March 18 2019 11:33 DomeGetta wrote:
Based on what?
Well represented in code S ro16 (6/16). (Liquipedia)
50% of IEM ro8 thru final (Liquipedia)
Most represented race in top 200/500/1000/2000 global MMR (rankedftw).
No Korean Protoss in WESG.
Zerg also being nerfed.
There are 6 protosses in the Korean top 13 WCS Ranking bases on last 3 GSL, so its no wonder that there are 6 of 16 in RO16 since korea the top 20 in Korea features a bit more protosses but this is since 2-3 years even when protoss underperformed in the ladder, europe and tournaments (2016-2017 u can watch ur rankedftw for that.)
And the slight domination of protoss in top 200/500/1000/2000 global MMR started only a few month ago with the blink cost reduction or slightly before since protoss adapted there playstyle trhe most over the last 9-12 month, goin from nearly 90 % stargate to a more diverse strategy and opening set, what is good (and came with some patches, tempest buff carrier nerf) and most important collossi buff for pvt. So i think protoss still doesnt overperform vs zerg esp in tournemanets and with the new nyduss protoss gets mostly slaughtered by zerg (see the stats soo final, zest soo 4-0 etc., and he didnt even use nyduss but pvz was always hard)
The period of zerg dominance and terran dominace was much longer when u look at rankedftw esp there is a zerg dominace there with the same population in grandmaster since the begining of LOTV 37-40 % zergs while protoss most time around 27%, and there wasnt done much with patches or i didnt even know if zerg got nerfed at all, Now 4 month protoss get the grip wwas helped a bit by the last 12 month patches everyhone things p is imba its total bullshit the other races just need to adept, esp zerg with the new weapon nydus has nothing to complain about, and on the highest level in my opinion terran is strongest, see the innovation win of last wesg..
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On March 18 2019 12:26 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2019 23:19 DomeGetta wrote:On March 17 2019 18:11 BerserkSword wrote:i play terran On March 17 2019 18:09 Doko wrote:On March 17 2019 17:51 WaesumNinja wrote:
The time you guys spend hunting down numbers and cherrypicking should be spent playing. Race switch and play against each other. Whoever loses will gain insight. The ones who win will have to seek their insight on ladder.
And if you try excuse yourself with "that guy is a league above me" etc then you're just acknowledging that skill plays a bigger part than you try to make it seem. He's just trying to copy terran whine tactics but doesn't have the game knowledge to back it up and keeps linking of videos of protoss doing dumb things and calling imbalance. Its a tragedy for SC2 that rain stopped playing, he would've been the maru/serral of protoss, they still have to bring him up when someone says macro protoss and stats is busy coming in second on multiple tournaments. LOL @ this guy GSL caliber PvT = protoss players doing dumb things funny thing is that rain used to say the same things i'm saying terran OP protoss is too unforgiving You dont tho..unless u mean u play at like 3K mmr lol. Protoss is easily the most forgiving / least required micro/ multitask race. You can literally recall your army if you are caught out.. where as T or Z can lose a game because of by far the stupidest unit in the game that costs no gas warp prism. You can spam out shield batteries the second u scout a push coming...the fuck are u talking about "too unforgiving?" You should at least attempt to explain your lunacy. On no planet in no universe did someone like Rain say or have anything in common with someone like you. Very obviously a 4k protoss player who desperately wants to hold on to his diamond 2 rank. “You have to play like a machine to win as Protoss. You can't make a single mistake.” -Rain Source: https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/529530-protossed-or-how-we-gave-up-on-understandingRain also said that Terran was more OP than broodlord infestor lol. don't have a source for that yet, but I'll spare you since Rain's first quote already makes you look like a clown It's comical that you have to resort to making things personal after your arguments are destroyed
LOL - this takes the cake here.
There's nothing personal about it at all - the only thing personal is the taste of vomit I get each time I read your posts rofl.
This is the best one yet by far:
You have nothing in common with Rain as in:
He's a world class pro player / You are a random whiner on TL forum.
You refute with "Look, a pro Protoss player (who hasn't played this version of the game) also said it was hard to play Protoss!"
You got me bro - you got me.
Meanwhile you have managed to completely ignore:
"Well represented in code S ro16 (6/16). (Liquipedia)
50% of IEM ro8 thru final (Liquipedia)
Most represented race in top 200/500/1000/2000 global MMR (rankedftw).
No Korean Protoss in WESG.
Zerg also being nerfed."
So you continue to bring your "anecdotes" about how the struggle is real for Protoss - while all of the facts keep falling on your head. Please continue.
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I'm not sure that this nerf for toss should go ahead - as many has said, it won't change the terrain timing window and PvT lategame.
I think artosis made the point that players can get out of shape in a matchup through proxy and allin play. Im not saying this is the only thing at work, but it's a factor.
I think back to the best TvP players, and they almost all just pulled protoss apart with drops whilst teching towards the Ghost /Viking / liberator / marauder ultimate composition. You'd think that with quicker thirds, multi prong aggression should be stronger.
Perhaps there's a way of making that late game army easier to control for terrans. But I don't think there's any doubt that it can go toe to toe with protoss late game, it's just that too many terrans stay on a mid/late game for too long without moving into the ultra late game army that can wreck protoss.
On another issue, I think we need to be talking about Zerg more. Good to see Nydus change, but I'm seeing Protoss being trashed in the late game pretty regularly. Given the Tempest and Carrier both have been nerfed, the golden armada isn't the answer to Broodlord / Infestor / Corruptor.
It's be great to abuse the mobility of that composition (say with Blink Stalkers as an example) but Lings and fungal sorta prohibit that. I'm curious to see what others think about PvZ lategame.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
ZvP is statistically the biggest outlier right now and i can't see the proposed patch changing that much.
Nydus 3 armor helps for making a wider variety of play possible without all-in's being build order losses but the threat is still quite legit and the upgrade nerf will be felt.
Tempest is a required check against certain units, it sometimes does that job fine but i haven't seen it in action all that much recently. Vray and Carrier are weak atm and phoenix play is fairly good but not amazing in all matchups, usually confined to the early game.
Air upgrade nerf is just wtf because nobody was asking for it and it primarily serves to make units which are already fairly weak even worse. Air upgrades primarily buff carriers + phoenixes, void rays and then last of all tempests. Who looks at the game right now and decides that carriers and phoenixes need to be preferentially crippled?
E.g. There are many times where a phoenix or a carrier would hit something for 3 damage but if you have +1-2 attack then you hit for 4 or 5 damage instead. That's +33-67% more damage. A one or two upgrade difference completely transforms the game when units like this are in play and making those upgrades take longer would be a major problem for mid to late game play involving those units in every matchup.
If you have tempests then the biggest interaction is that you can kill certain key units in 1.167x - 1.25x fewer shots if you've got multiple attack upgrades to hit the breakpoints. Oracles don't benefit from attack upgrades at all and are almost never used in combat when upgrades are in play.
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Yes, and another thing that needs to be factored in is that the feedback nerf has had a rather big impact on infestor vs. HT interactions. Now that infestors don't die to feedback, it's much less risky to run them forward to try and get a fungal off on the Protoss air army.
We haven't really seen a lot of pro PvZs hit the late game yet because of nydus and other reasons, but I do think if what I've seen on pro streams is any indication, it could get pretty rough. It seems like most pro protoss players are now trying to end the matchup via all-ins or timings before broodlord/infestor can get out. I also saw a Zerg playing lategame against puck utilize the new nydus to harass bases while still defending the main infestor/broodlord/corruptor/mass static army (they have a nydus head with the main army and then have others pop up near protoss bases) and it looked incredibly tough to deal with since all ground units could hit a base and then be back to defend within a few seconds if the protoss tried to attack the main army/static defence area.
The tempest in its current state is actually pretty weak against Zerg now. It's no longer fast and agile enough to poke with safely, but it also has such low health that it can get picked off easily once vipers are out and there's a few spore crawlers with the army. It's in the same boat as the stalker where they made a drastic change to it that was good, but slightly too good, but instead of nerfing it a little bit to dial it back they basically split the difference between the old version and new version and it's not good for either the new use case or the old use case.
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On March 24 2019 11:31 Ben... wrote:
Yes, and another thing that needs to be factored in is that the feedback nerf has had a rather big impact on infestor vs. HT interactions. Now that infestors don't die to feedback, it's much less risky to run them forward to try and get a fungal off on the Protoss air army.
We haven't really seen a lot of pro PvZs hit the late game yet because of nydus and other reasons, but I do think if what I've seen on pro streams is any indication, it could get pretty rough. It seems like most pro protoss players are now trying to end the matchup via all-ins or timings before broodlord/infestor can get out. I also saw a Zerg playing lategame against puck utilize the new nydus to harass bases while still defending the main infestor/broodlord/corruptor/mass static army (they have a nydus head with the main army and then have others pop up near protoss bases) and it looked incredibly tough to deal with since all ground units could hit a base and then be back to defend within a few seconds if the protoss tried to attack the main army/static defence area.
The tempest in its current state is actually pretty weak against Zerg now. It's no longer fast and agile enough to poke with safely, but it also has such low health that it can get picked off easily once vipers are out and there's a few spore crawlers with the army. It's in the same boat as the stalker where they made a drastic change to it that was good, but slightly too good, but instead of nerfing it a little bit to dial it back they basically split the difference between the old version and new version and it's not good for either the new use case or the old use case.
the worst part about the new tempest is that it isnt even really split between the old and new versions.
the first buff was giving it speed in exchange for durability. the speed was then nerfed, but none of the durability was given back
tempests get killed so easily now. they shouldve at least given it some HP back imo
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EPT
