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This thread is starting to get out of hand. From this point on, if you are going to post statistics and/or data as a way to back up your statements about racial imbalances, then please post the sources as well. |
On March 13 2019 17:14 LoneYoShi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 04:56 Elentos wrote:On March 13 2019 04:50 Mlord wrote:
Nydus need to cost more, and for TvP this will help but that's not close to enough Wouldn't these extra seconds mostly help Terrans to all-in before Protoss has 2/2 even better? I think Elentos hits the nail on the head here: this change will help terran (any direct nerf like this helps) and will help make the TvP matchup statistics look better (i.e. bring them closer to 50%), it won't change anything as to how this matchup is played because none of the underlying problems are solved. Terran will still do anything in his power to dodge the lategame and doesn't really have powerful cheese at his disposition to keep a protoss honest, so this'll lead only to more "YOLO-pull-the-boys-in-the-midgame" builds. Which are as boring to watch as they are dull to play. But hey, at least the stats will look better... Personnally though, as someone who used to play mostly macro in TvP (and getting absolutely smashed in 80% of my games), I welcome the change. I've since then switched to cheesing (proxy tanks + libs), which, at my level, is netting me a surprising amount of wins. This change might make me go back to try and play macro.
increasing mmm s power spike aint gonna solve anything i gotta say
balance team needs to figure it out before gsL ss2
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It's a smart change that will mostly affect midgame and lategame in PvT, but won't make Terran pushes roll up toss. I wonder if it's enough to make a macrogame TvP viable though.
I was also wondering if the cyclone magfield accelerator research time can be unnerfed. It seems completely figured out in TvZ and it allowed for some aggressive timings in TvP before the nerf.
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开始 二月 28, 2019
End 三月 13, 2019
PvT 167–128 (56.61%)
PvZ 267–309 (46.35%)
TvZ 201–237 (45.89%)
TVP and TVZ are broken, why B team can't just buff Terran? why nerf Protoss? PVZ is already zerg favoured, if increase upgrade time, how to PVZ? how to PVZ? how to PVZ? how to PVZ?
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lot of people in this thread who don't understand the impact of upgrades
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On March 13 2019 23:07 brickrd wrote:
lot of people in this thread who don't understand the impact of upgrades
yet they dont bother changing terran mech upgrades, which is the reason, switching to mech isnt viable in tvp. Protoss switch to archons/imortals/colosus he keeps his upgrades. Terran want to switch to his "high tier" ground units, suddenly half of his army is 0-0... This is main problem, terran is forced to stay with low tier bio units, instead of them becoming expendable support units after early mid game (like zealot/sentry/stalker), they are main army whole game.
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On March 13 2019 23:40 skdsk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 23:07 brickrd wrote:
lot of people in this thread who don't understand the impact of upgrades yet they dont bother changing terran mech upgrades, which is the reason, switching to mech isnt viable in tvp. Protoss switch to archons/imortals/colosus he keeps his upgrades. Terran want to switch to his "high tier" ground units, suddenly half of his army is 0-0... This is main problem, terran is forced to stay with low tier units, instead of them becoming expendable support units after early mid game (like zealot/sentry/stalker), they are main army whole game.
And on the other hand Terran gets the Mech armor within the same upgrade for Ground and Air units..
+ you're of course forgetting to mention that Protoss needs two upgrades for its defense (Shield + armor, with shield being very expensive) which is unique to the race.
All i'm saying is, this kind of argument is useless to the discussion, every race has its pros and cons, but increasing the duration of Protoss upgrades definitely isn't the solution to fixing TvP.. And will most likely favour Zerg in ZvP even more than it is today.
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On March 13 2019 23:46 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 23:40 skdsk wrote:On March 13 2019 23:07 brickrd wrote:
lot of people in this thread who don't understand the impact of upgrades yet they dont bother changing terran mech upgrades, which is the reason, switching to mech isnt viable in tvp. Protoss switch to archons/imortals/colosus he keeps his upgrades. Terran want to switch to his "high tier" ground units, suddenly half of his army is 0-0... This is main problem, terran is forced to stay with low tier units, instead of them becoming expendable support units after early mid game (like zealot/sentry/stalker), they are main army whole game. And on the other hand Terran gets the Mech armor within the same upgrade for Ground and Air units.. + you're of course forgetting to mention that Protoss needs two upgrades for its defense (Shield + armor, with shield being very expensive) which is unique to the race. All i'm saying is, this kind of argument is useless to the discussion, every race has its pros and cons, but increasing the duration of Protoss upgrades definitely isn't the solution to fixing TvP.. And will most likely favour Zerg in ZvP even more than it is today.
On the other hand.. totally ignoring the nydus nerf..which is a huge part of any slight advantage zerg has over Protoss...also makes ur arguement kind of useless.
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Like the Nydus change, it was much needed
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On March 14 2019 00:01 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 23:46 Snarosc wrote:On March 13 2019 23:40 skdsk wrote:On March 13 2019 23:07 brickrd wrote:
lot of people in this thread who don't understand the impact of upgrades yet they dont bother changing terran mech upgrades, which is the reason, switching to mech isnt viable in tvp. Protoss switch to archons/imortals/colosus he keeps his upgrades. Terran want to switch to his "high tier" ground units, suddenly half of his army is 0-0... This is main problem, terran is forced to stay with low tier units, instead of them becoming expendable support units after early mid game (like zealot/sentry/stalker), they are main army whole game. And on the other hand Terran gets the Mech armor within the same upgrade for Ground and Air units.. + you're of course forgetting to mention that Protoss needs two upgrades for its defense (Shield + armor, with shield being very expensive) which is unique to the race. All i'm saying is, this kind of argument is useless to the discussion, every race has its pros and cons, but increasing the duration of Protoss upgrades definitely isn't the solution to fixing TvP.. And will most likely favour Zerg in ZvP even more than it is today. On the other hand.. totally ignoring the nydus nerf..which is a huge part of any slight advantage zerg has over Protoss...also makes ur arguement kind of useless.
Yes because PvZ has been Zerg favored only since the 5 armor nydus was introduced ? It's been way longer than that.
I'm not saying the matchup is broken and needs fixing, but it's already slightly zerg favored and making this protoss nerf isn't going to help in that specific matchup.
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On March 14 2019 00:13 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 00:01 DomeGetta wrote:On March 13 2019 23:46 Snarosc wrote:On March 13 2019 23:40 skdsk wrote:On March 13 2019 23:07 brickrd wrote:
lot of people in this thread who don't understand the impact of upgrades yet they dont bother changing terran mech upgrades, which is the reason, switching to mech isnt viable in tvp. Protoss switch to archons/imortals/colosus he keeps his upgrades. Terran want to switch to his "high tier" ground units, suddenly half of his army is 0-0... This is main problem, terran is forced to stay with low tier units, instead of them becoming expendable support units after early mid game (like zealot/sentry/stalker), they are main army whole game. And on the other hand Terran gets the Mech armor within the same upgrade for Ground and Air units.. + you're of course forgetting to mention that Protoss needs two upgrades for its defense (Shield + armor, with shield being very expensive) which is unique to the race. All i'm saying is, this kind of argument is useless to the discussion, every race has its pros and cons, but increasing the duration of Protoss upgrades definitely isn't the solution to fixing TvP.. And will most likely favour Zerg in ZvP even more than it is today. On the other hand.. totally ignoring the nydus nerf..which is a huge part of any slight advantage zerg has over Protoss...also makes ur arguement kind of useless. Yes because PvZ has been Zerg favored only since the 5 armor nydus was introduced ? It's been way longer than that. I'm not saying the matchup is broken and needs fixing, but it's already slightly zerg favored and making this protoss nerf isn't going to help in that specific matchup.
Ur saying the matchup isnt broken...and they are nerfing both sides of the matchup. Weve seen the nydus create win conditions at an obscene rate in zvp. This nerf should easily have a larger impact on winrates in zvp than 55 seconds total longer to get to 3 3.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On March 13 2019 09:02 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 08:19 Fran_ wrote:
It's probably a FAQ, but what is the reason why supply depots take 21s? It's a honest question, I don't remember reading the logic behind this choice anywhere and I assume there is one. Interesting question, I don't know but according to liquidpedia in wol and hots overlord/pylon used to be 25 seconds build time and supply depots 30 seconds. In Lotv they decreased the build speed to what we have today.
In WOL/HOTS we played with the clock ticking ~1.38x faster than real time. The build time didn't actually change in reality, only the game clock.
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Terran start win 0 Energy Orbital?
Buff early bio to be able to put some pressure on P?
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On March 13 2019 23:46 Snarosc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 23:40 skdsk wrote:On March 13 2019 23:07 brickrd wrote:
lot of people in this thread who don't understand the impact of upgrades yet they dont bother changing terran mech upgrades, which is the reason, switching to mech isnt viable in tvp. Protoss switch to archons/imortals/colosus he keeps his upgrades. Terran want to switch to his "high tier" ground units, suddenly half of his army is 0-0... This is main problem, terran is forced to stay with low tier units, instead of them becoming expendable support units after early mid game (like zealot/sentry/stalker), they are main army whole game. And on the other hand Terran gets the Mech armor within the same upgrade for Ground and Air units.. + you're of course forgetting to mention that Protoss needs two upgrades for its defense (Shield + armor, with shield being very expensive) which is unique to the race. All i'm saying is, this kind of argument is useless to the discussion, every race has its pros and cons, but increasing the duration of Protoss upgrades definitely isn't the solution to fixing TvP.. And will most likely favour Zerg in ZvP even more than it is today.
you totally ignored my argument, yes total amount of upgrades is the same (air and ground), but terran bio not sharing the same upgrade with terran mech is why mech cant be used in TVP. You suddenly cant switch to mech units and enjoy the same results, its the same thing with protoss air, if protoss tried to use 0-0 air vs 3-3 bio, he would get slaughtered. You either need to invest crazy amount of resources into mech upgrades for them to be on even "power" as protoss tech units.
Its one of the reason battlemech works in tvz, cyclones and helions dont really need attack upgrades, but defense upgrades works for air, so you can just do armor and air attack upgrades and sudenly you show up with 10 3-3 bc's in late game..
What i would like to see regarding upgrades is this:
Combine bio and mech attack upgrade, upgradable at engbay (level 2-3 need armory).
Bio defense upgrade stays the same.
Separate mech and air defense upgrade.
Remove mech attack upgrade.
Volia now your upgrades are even with toss as you need 3-3-3 for full ground upgrade path.
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On March 13 2019 06:50 StarcraftSquall wrote:
Since the start of 2018:
Terrans: 3 GSL, 1 HSC
Zergs: 2 IEMs, 4 WCS, 1 GSL Weekender, 2 BlizzCon
Protoss: 2 Super Tournament
And Terrans are STILL whining about imbalance DESPITE recent results. If anything Protoss should be the salty bunch, they’re getting nerfed AGAIN because they don’t complain despite no high level results since 2017. It’s about time Toss got a break.
Championships are not balance indicators. Top 8-16 across all those different events would be much more telling regarding top level balance than who won.
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On March 14 2019 04:11 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 06:50 StarcraftSquall wrote:
Since the start of 2018:
Terrans: 3 GSL, 1 HSC
Zergs: 2 IEMs, 4 WCS, 1 GSL Weekender, 2 BlizzCon
Protoss: 2 Super Tournament
And Terrans are STILL whining about imbalance DESPITE recent results. If anything Protoss should be the salty bunch, they’re getting nerfed AGAIN because they don’t complain despite no high level results since 2017. It’s about time Toss got a break. Championships are not balance indicators. Top 8-16 across all those different events would be much more telling regarding top level balance than who won.
it would show that majority is zerg / protoss with some korean terrans, this was the case from wol, and never changed.
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So instead of buffing terran, protoss will be weaker in pvz, when there is no such need.
Our current plan is to release these changes to live servers on Monday, March 25
And current plan of players (terrans and tosses) is not to play Starcraft 2.
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Another note about terran macro, terran oc cost 550, nexus cost 400, baracks cost 150+addon upgrade(50/25 or 50/50), build 46+18/36 (compare all that to gateway 46seconds...), mule is nerfed do to higher amount of workers at start, meaning its only really an advantage in late game when you have 20oc's, dont forget scv must build the building.. i understand that they need to be carefull with terran build times for proxies etc. But if they want to actually make terran viable as macro race, they need to buff macro options, since if they buff units it will only mean 1 thing = that unit will be used in 2 base timing.. at highest level other races outmacro terrans, if terran isnt threatening allin push, he will be 100% behind.
Fix macro / add useful hightech upgrade (similar to storm upgrade, colosus range upgrade).
There is a reason 90% of foreign pro players are zerg and toss.
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On March 13 2019 23:40 skdsk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 23:07 brickrd wrote:
lot of people in this thread who don't understand the impact of upgrades yet they dont bother changing terran mech upgrades, which is the reason, switching to mech isnt viable in tvp. Protoss switch to archons/imortals/colosus he keeps his upgrades. Terran want to switch to his "high tier" ground units, suddenly half of his army is 0-0... This is main problem, terran is forced to stay with low tier bio units, instead of them becoming expendable support units after early mid game (like zealot/sentry/stalker), they are main army whole game.
This is exactly what TvZ is in brood war. And its balance out through 2 key factors: Terran has phenomenal defensive power and a great transitional spell caster, the science vessel.
My point is the balance found for Terran doesn't need to come from toying with upgrades and how their units are upgraded isn't the problem.
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Some of you guys are dismissing the proposed changes for TvP too fast. Yes a increase in upgrade research time for protoss will make Terran timing attacks and all-ins stronger but to counteract that protoss will start to play less greedy builds to hold the possible terran all-in wich means that Terran has a easier time at macro play because of that constant danger.
I think these changes are worth a try and I especially like that they not changing single unit stats but rather look at the bigger macro picture.
Of course instead of nerfing Protoss they could buff Terran so I thought about a few alternativ changes:
1) reducing the cost of the Orbital Command upgrade from 150 minerals to 100 minerals and decreasing the research time from 25s to 19s. This change would mean by the time your secound OC is finished you will have an extra SCV (that's an extra 58 minerals per s until you stop SCV production), 50 minerals saved(-50 because of the extra SCV) and 12s more MULE mining time (wich rougthly equals 44 extra minerals).
With all those extra minerals Terran can build the third CC a lot quicker.
Or 2) a straight 5-10% buff to the MULE gather rate. There's not much to say about that, this buff will kick in a little bit later than the other on, mostly in mid and late game.
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On March 13 2019 13:07 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 13:04 StarcraftSquall wrote:
Honestly the biggest problem Terrans gave (other than their ridiculous whining - and no, you don’t get to discount Maru’s Games - he does indeed belong to your race - is pretty simple. Ravens. Not enough Terrans are using them in their games. Terrans not using Ravens are like Protoss not using High Templar. You’ve got one of the best units in the game a good portion of Terrans are neglecting to use it. And I can’t for the life of me understand why. Especially in TvP when Anti Armor Missile and Interference Matrix can literally change the fight in their favor in a few seconds.
If you’re going to complain about lack of success you don’t get to discount when Terrans actually do win even if it is the same one three times.
And just for the record, I am a Random player. :-) At least for now.
#ImbalanceIsOnlyInYourHead
Feedback
if high templars are trying to feedback ravens, it's fewer storms a terran player has to worry about
also, in a real engagement, the raven has the advantage as it's faster and aam and interference matrix have longer range than feedback it gets to dictate the battle. not to mention the fact that high templars might be hiding in prisms or at the back of armies for protection
the existence of high templars is no excuse not to abuse a powerful spell caster like the raven
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EPT
