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On January 29 2019 18:49 insitelol wrote:
Hey blizzard, if you are reading this.
What's the purpose of the thor buff?
I though everyone learned the lesson with 2hour stalemates already (Hots SH). But you keep forcing this shit every now and then, like once in 2 years or so. On and on. I'm just telling you, on the behalf of the community: Noone wants mech. Its a degenerative strat that needs to be gone forever.
I just can't wrap my head around what's so fun and innovative about camping with bazzilion of tanks/hellbats behind planetaries, sensor towers (btw how this structure is still in the game?) and turrets. And let's be honest: This is the only thing that mech is about. It promotes that exact kind of play. And you just made this absolete with thors. Basically all you need now is tank and thor (hellbat and few ghosts - optional) to dominate the entire protoss arsenal. A pure ground army! No kind of composition can do shit about just those 2 terran GROUND units (and even if they can, you need much more investment to stay at best even). When i play vs mech i feel like i'm 11 years old again playing bw on BigHunters. Is this the best gameplay you can provide with all the experience and knowledge you accumulated throughout 20 years of starcraft? For fucks sake.
And before those accomplished 4k terrans start forcing their usual nonsense, i'd want to say that i never asked for blink/robo/wg/tempest w/e "buffs" (robo wasn't even buffed, starting from third immortal you basically spend more money to continue production, but terrans count that as a "buff" anyways, i don't care). I never even asked for zealot charge buff. You can revert that but, for the sake of this game, that has just recovered from stalemate, stop buffing imbecile strats and units like thor.
If you want to shake things up i got an idea for that: remove SH, Tempest and Cyclone from the game. Revert all protoss "buffs", noone needs them anyways. Revert mines nerf, w/e. But leave mech out of this game.
Did I just read "No protoss ground unit can do shit against a Thor/tank composition"?
Have you heard of the unit called the "Immortal"?
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On January 31 2019 07:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2019 18:49 insitelol wrote:
Hey blizzard, if you are reading this.
What's the purpose of the thor buff?
I though everyone learned the lesson with 2hour stalemates already (Hots SH). But you keep forcing this shit every now and then, like once in 2 years or so. On and on. I'm just telling you, on the behalf of the community: Noone wants mech. Its a degenerative strat that needs to be gone forever.
I just can't wrap my head around what's so fun and innovative about camping with bazzilion of tanks/hellbats behind planetaries, sensor towers (btw how this structure is still in the game?) and turrets. And let's be honest: This is the only thing that mech is about. It promotes that exact kind of play. And you just made this absolete with thors. Basically all you need now is tank and thor (hellbat and few ghosts - optional) to dominate the entire protoss arsenal. A pure ground army! No kind of composition can do shit about just those 2 terran GROUND units (and even if they can, you need much more investment to stay at best even). When i play vs mech i feel like i'm 11 years old again playing bw on BigHunters. Is this the best gameplay you can provide with all the experience and knowledge you accumulated throughout 20 years of starcraft? For fucks sake.
And before those accomplished 4k terrans start forcing their usual nonsense, i'd want to say that i never asked for blink/robo/wg/tempest w/e "buffs" (robo wasn't even buffed, starting from third immortal you basically spend more money to continue production, but terrans count that as a "buff" anyways, i don't care). I never even asked for zealot charge buff. You can revert that but, for the sake of this game, that has just recovered from stalemate, stop buffing imbecile strats and units like thor.
If you want to shake things up i got an idea for that: remove SH, Tempest and Cyclone from the game. Revert all protoss "buffs", noone needs them anyways. Revert mines nerf, w/e. But leave mech out of this game.
Did I just read "No protoss ground unit can do shit against a Thor/tank composition"? Have you heard of the unit called the "Immortal"?
Have you tried attacking into 30 tanks in siege mode with 8 thors in front of them with pure immortal army? Have you tried the same thing with terran camping behind a planetary? Want me to give you a hint what happens if terran gets 3 ghosts to support that?
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On January 31 2019 21:27 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 07:07 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2019 18:49 insitelol wrote:
Hey blizzard, if you are reading this.
What's the purpose of the thor buff?
I though everyone learned the lesson with 2hour stalemates already (Hots SH). But you keep forcing this shit every now and then, like once in 2 years or so. On and on. I'm just telling you, on the behalf of the community: Noone wants mech. Its a degenerative strat that needs to be gone forever.
I just can't wrap my head around what's so fun and innovative about camping with bazzilion of tanks/hellbats behind planetaries, sensor towers (btw how this structure is still in the game?) and turrets. And let's be honest: This is the only thing that mech is about. It promotes that exact kind of play. And you just made this absolete with thors. Basically all you need now is tank and thor (hellbat and few ghosts - optional) to dominate the entire protoss arsenal. A pure ground army! No kind of composition can do shit about just those 2 terran GROUND units (and even if they can, you need much more investment to stay at best even). When i play vs mech i feel like i'm 11 years old again playing bw on BigHunters. Is this the best gameplay you can provide with all the experience and knowledge you accumulated throughout 20 years of starcraft? For fucks sake.
And before those accomplished 4k terrans start forcing their usual nonsense, i'd want to say that i never asked for blink/robo/wg/tempest w/e "buffs" (robo wasn't even buffed, starting from third immortal you basically spend more money to continue production, but terrans count that as a "buff" anyways, i don't care). I never even asked for zealot charge buff. You can revert that but, for the sake of this game, that has just recovered from stalemate, stop buffing imbecile strats and units like thor.
If you want to shake things up i got an idea for that: remove SH, Tempest and Cyclone from the game. Revert all protoss "buffs", noone needs them anyways. Revert mines nerf, w/e. But leave mech out of this game.
Did I just read "No protoss ground unit can do shit against a Thor/tank composition"? Have you heard of the unit called the "Immortal"? Have you tried attacking into 30 tanks in siege mode with 8 thors in front of them with pure immortal army? Have you tried the same thing with terran camping behind a planetary? Want me to give you a hint what happens if terran gets 3 ghosts to support that?
Ridiculous situation where you have 90 supply in tanks and 48 supply in thors, meaning that 50 amoved chargelots will win. And even if you try to take that on with full immortals, you'll end up butchering the thors then trading nearly cost-effectively with tanks if you engage in a concave.
I just love how some people don't get that units that need to be bolted into the f*cking ground to shoot are supposed to have superior firepower. Next time i shove 100 supply of bio into 100 supply of burrowed lurkers i suppose i'll start crying too.
Back to reality : protoss ground armies butcher most mech compositions out on the map if they engage correctly. The only exception is full tanks/hellbats/liberators, which is extremely static and make a tempest switch extremely powerful. In defensive situations mech is harder to engage frontally, which is a given if you want the comp to have any relevance. However, the superior mobility of protoss ground armies usually makes breaking a terran player using multi proned attacks quite easy, especially on superior economy.
Mech is much better versus protoss now, but it's still a mediocre playstyle compared to bio, because the cyclone is still a horribly designed unit and that late game is still nearly impossible to play (triple recall, skytoss, free static defense vs terran needing to invest a lot of population to secure expands, etc)
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On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Ridiculous situation where you have 90 supply in tanks and 48 supply in thors, meaning that 50 amoved chargelots will win. And even if you try to take that on with full immortals, you'll end up butchering the thors then trading nearly cost-effectively with tanks if you engage in a concave.
Now we are talking. Just tell me how am i supposed to have a concave on current map pool vs half decent terran who spams sensor towers and planetaries on the map and moves out only on secured positions? I can waltz around him with as you put it "far mobile army" forever but whats the purpose if i can't fucking engage him ever? He will still get his half of the map.
On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
I just love how some people don't get that units that need to be bolted into the f*cking ground to shoot are supposed to have superior firepower. Next time i shove 100 supply of bio into 100 supply of burrowed lurkers i suppose i'll start crying too.
I never said i shove immortals into tanks, because i never do that. It was Charoisaur who proposed that.
on a serious note: im well aware that 360 angles obliterate unsieged mech, don't worry.
On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Back to reality : protoss ground armies butcher most mech compositions out on the map if they engage correctly. The only exception is full tanks/hellbats/liberators, which is extremely static and make a tempest switch extremely powerful.
Exactly. That's what my initial post was about. Try switching to tempest with 11 range thors. Have you watched recent TY streams? Would definitely recommend.
On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
In defensive situations mech is harder to engage frontally, which is a given if you want the comp to have any relevance. However, the superior mobility of protoss ground armies usually makes breaking a terran player using multi proned attacks quite easy, especially on superior economy.
Already commented on that.
On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Mech is much better versus protoss now, but it's still a mediocre playstyle compared to bio, because the cyclone is still a horribly designed unit and that late game is still nearly impossible to play (triple recall, skytoss, free static defense vs terran needing to invest a lot of population to secure expands, etc)
What's triple recall? (no kidding, just wondering), static defense issues? (Didnt get that too, sorry). Skytoss. Well as i said thors alone murder tempests now. Have not tried full carrier limit, but something tells me there is a reason protoss never go carrier vs terran.
All in all. I'm not saying mech is 100% unbeatable. But its MUCH more stronger now and easier to execute. Yes, the reason behind my rant is that i don't want to adjust my plays to mech playstyles, because it promotes long stalemates. The exact thing that happened to SC2 during SH era. That whole playstyle is pure cancer and should be gone. Devs should not support camping. To everyone who struggles with bio - switch race or go play c&c generals or w/e. And yes, that's my personal opinion. Consider it a design whine.
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On January 31 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Ridiculous situation where you have 90 supply in tanks and 48 supply in thors, meaning that 50 amoved chargelots will win. And even if you try to take that on with full immortals, you'll end up butchering the thors then trading nearly cost-effectively with tanks if you engage in a concave. Now we are talking. Just tell me how am i supposed to have a concave on current map pool vs half decent terran who spams sensor towers and planetaries on the map and moves out only on secured positions? I can waltz around him with as you put it "far mobile army" forever but whats the purpose if i can't fucking engage him ever? He will still get his half of the map. Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
I just love how some people don't get that units that need to be bolted into the f*cking ground to shoot are supposed to have superior firepower. Next time i shove 100 supply of bio into 100 supply of burrowed lurkers i suppose i'll start crying too. I never said i shove immortals into tanks, because i never do that. It was Chairosaur who proposed that. on a serious note: im well aware that 360 angles obliterate unsieged mech, don't worry. Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Back to reality : protoss ground armies butcher most mech compositions out on the map if they engage correctly. The only exception is full tanks/hellbats/liberators, which is extremely static and make a tempest switch extremely powerful. Exactly. That's what my initial post was about. Try switching to tempest with 11 range thors. Have you watched recent TY streams? Would definitely recommend. Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
In defensive situations mech is harder to engage frontally, which is a given if you want the comp to have any relevance. However, the superior mobility of protoss ground armies usually makes breaking a terran player using multi proned attacks quite easy, especially on superior economy. Already commented on that. Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Mech is much better versus protoss now, but it's still a mediocre playstyle compared to bio, because the cyclone is still a horribly designed unit and that late game is still nearly impossible to play (triple recall, skytoss, free static defense vs terran needing to invest a lot of population to secure expands, etc) What's triple recall? (no kidding, just wondering), static defense issues? (Didnt get that too, sorry). Skytoss. Well as i said thors alone murder tempests now. Have not tried full carrier limit, but something tells me there is a reason protoss never go carrier vs terran. All in all. I'm not saying mech is 100% unbeatable. But its MUCH more stronger now and easier to execute. Yes, the reason behind my rant is that i don't want to adjust my plays to mech playstyles, because it promotes long stalemates. The exact thing that happened to SC2 during SH era. That whole playstyle is pure cancer and should be gone. Devs should not support camping. To everyone who struggles with bio - switch race or go play c&c generals or w/e. And yes, that's my personal opinion. Consider it a design whine.
1) about switching tempests vs thors : the thing is that now you can't just start building tempests and never stop until you auto win the game. So yeah, thors have 11 range, but you've got 15 range to snipe liberators with 5-6 tempests, force thors out that are dead weight against protoss ground armies. Your design complain that you can't just start massing a single unit and automatically win the game. You're now supposed to mix it with other units depending on the opponent's composition, position yourself, perform multiproned attacks... You know, just like bio players do versus protoss?
2) static defense : shield batteries and canons. Costs very little, prevents a lot of agression. Add to that warp and superior army mobility, and it's much easier for protoss to secure bases that it is for mech. Compared to mech needing 6-9 supply/PF/sensor tower/turrets to secure a base. That means mech works on an inferior economy than protoss while mech armies aren't necessarily more cost effective than protoss ones.
3) triple recall = 1 nexus recall + 2 recall from full energy mothership. Means you basically have 3 free tries to shove a huge force much too deep into enemy defenses and just TP home with little to no fear of loosing your army. Or force a tactical jump from enemy BCs, recall home, and immediatly start harassing again with tempest range.
The best being of course to force a tradebase and TP back home.
4) " I'm not saying mech is 100% unbeatable. But its MUCH more stronger now and easier to execute. Yes, the reason behind my rant is that i don't want to adjust my plays to mech playstyles"
=> mech has historically been absolutely non-viable versus protoss depending on patches, and it may be less horrible than it used to be right now : that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that it's fully viable like it is versus Z, and by your own admission you're complaining about not being able to just mass tempests and instantly win the game.
Which doesn't mean that because you don't like it/to play against it, an entire playstyle of terran shouldn't be viable in the only matchup it's not and hasn't been for 9 years.
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On January 31 2019 21:27 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 07:07 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2019 18:49 insitelol wrote:
Hey blizzard, if you are reading this.
What's the purpose of the thor buff?
I though everyone learned the lesson with 2hour stalemates already (Hots SH). But you keep forcing this shit every now and then, like once in 2 years or so. On and on. I'm just telling you, on the behalf of the community: Noone wants mech. Its a degenerative strat that needs to be gone forever.
I just can't wrap my head around what's so fun and innovative about camping with bazzilion of tanks/hellbats behind planetaries, sensor towers (btw how this structure is still in the game?) and turrets. And let's be honest: This is the only thing that mech is about. It promotes that exact kind of play. And you just made this absolete with thors. Basically all you need now is tank and thor (hellbat and few ghosts - optional) to dominate the entire protoss arsenal. A pure ground army! No kind of composition can do shit about just those 2 terran GROUND units (and even if they can, you need much more investment to stay at best even). When i play vs mech i feel like i'm 11 years old again playing bw on BigHunters. Is this the best gameplay you can provide with all the experience and knowledge you accumulated throughout 20 years of starcraft? For fucks sake.
And before those accomplished 4k terrans start forcing their usual nonsense, i'd want to say that i never asked for blink/robo/wg/tempest w/e "buffs" (robo wasn't even buffed, starting from third immortal you basically spend more money to continue production, but terrans count that as a "buff" anyways, i don't care). I never even asked for zealot charge buff. You can revert that but, for the sake of this game, that has just recovered from stalemate, stop buffing imbecile strats and units like thor.
If you want to shake things up i got an idea for that: remove SH, Tempest and Cyclone from the game. Revert all protoss "buffs", noone needs them anyways. Revert mines nerf, w/e. But leave mech out of this game.
Did I just read "No protoss ground unit can do shit against a Thor/tank composition"? Have you heard of the unit called the "Immortal"? Have you tried attacking into 30 tanks in siege mode with 8 thors in front of them with pure immortal army? Have you tried the same thing with terran camping behind a planetary? Want me to give you a hint what happens if terran gets 3 ghosts to support that?
I mean like it's not if protoss didn't had all the tools to hardcounter mech, maybe that's why it's never used at a pro level. Immortals, zealots, skytoss are hardcountering mech so hard.
If you whine vs mech it's nothing less but a l2p issue.
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it''s so fucking sad to see terran players still pulling the bois in TvP but tbh i highly doubt they could ferret out how to nerf chrono boost without letting protoss die to zerglings and tanks push
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I see no reason to increase Yamato Gun research time.
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From bad to worse. They have no clue what they are doing!
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Does feel pretty P favored in PvT. I'd be okay if they decreased stim research time or something like that
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One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran.
User was warned for this post.
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On February 03 2019 19:51 seemsgood wrote:
it''s so fucking sad to see terran players still pulling the bois in TvP but tbh i highly doubt they could ferret out how to nerf chrono boost without letting protoss die to zerglings and tanks push
This is the big issue. They've somewhat painted themselves into a corner with balancing protoss, and we've ended up at a situation where there are several things that could use changing, but doing so without massive changes to other aspects of protoss would break the game for protoss. People want chronoboost nerfed, but without it as is, there's a bunch of timings that would be insanely hard to hold. These one and two base tanks pushes are manageable right now but with an even slightly weaker economy, it could tip them into being too good like in the 1/1/1 era.
It's the same deal with protoss mass air. It sucks. It's not a fun strategy to use or play against. As it stands though, any substantial change to nerf mass air would leave protoss opened to getting rolled by mech and brood lord compositions every game since protoss ground can't effectively fight either of those compositions from the ground.
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On February 05 2019 00:38 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2019 19:51 seemsgood wrote:
it''s so fucking sad to see terran players still pulling the bois in TvP but tbh i highly doubt they could ferret out how to nerf chrono boost without letting protoss die to zerglings and tanks push
This is the big issue. They've somewhat painted themselves into a corner with balancing protoss, and we've ended up at a situation where there are several things that could use changing, but doing so without massive changes to other aspects of protoss would break the game for protoss. People want chronoboost nerfed, but without it as is, there's a bunch of timings that would be insanely hard to hold. These one and two base tanks pushes are manageable right now but with an even slightly weaker economy, it could tip them into being too good like in the 1/1/1 era. It's the same deal with protoss mass air. It sucks. It's not a fun strategy to use or play against. As it stands though, any substantial change to nerf mass air would leave protoss opened to getting rolled by mech and brood lord compositions every game since protoss ground can't effectively fight either of those compositions from the ground.
The problem is that Blizzard tinkered A LOT with balance/design/unit interaction, but instead of stabilizing the gameplay and maintaining (at least, if not improving) quality we’re now stuck with this - sorry to call it that, but it’s exactly how I feel about it - “clusterfuck” that is modern SC2.
I had my hopes up throughout the years that one day this game would just be finally done - no more experimenting and creating new problems again and again in the process. God, I just hate LotV from a multiplayer perspective - one day you read about 1-2 potential changes, which you think could really make for a better game, when suddenly there appears a patch proposal out of somebody’s ass that brings a load of complete and utter BS changes with it and after a mere week of underwhelming feedback this hot garbage happens to go live unaltered.
At this point I always get sad they killed off the separate ladders.
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I think only two changes are really necessary
1) Something that makes it easier to take a 3rd on time in TvP.
2) Disruptor range nerf so that they get the same range as tanks instead of outranging them.
If those two got solved I think the game is mostly in a good place.
It possible that Nydus needs a nerf as well, but I am not sure yet.
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The bug fixes are welcome, but they didn't change a single aspect of the balance points despite the criticism? :/
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On February 04 2019 07:46 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran.
People are still stuck in the HOTS mindset.
Immortals are not the hard counter to mech many believe. Tank/Hellbats beat mass immortals.
Thors can also fight against Carrier/Tempest in the lategame, so late game air is no longer auto-win for Protoss vs mech.
The reason mech is not viable in TvP is because mech have serious problems taking a 3rd at a reasonable time so the mech player is always behind the Protoss player in economy.
Disruptor range also make it so that ground based compositions does not work since the Disruptor outrange even the siege tank.
So if Disruptors got their range nerfed so it was the same as the siege tank and mech got some help taking a 3rd on time vs Protoss I think mech would be viable in TvP.
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On February 05 2019 22:28 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 07:46 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran. People are still stuck in the HOTS mindset. Immortals are not the hard counter to mech many believe. Tank/Hellbats beat mass immortals. Thors can also fight against Carrier/Tempest in the lategame, so late game air is no longer auto-win for Protoss vs mech. The reason mech is not viable in TvP is because mech have serious problems taking a 3rd at a reasonable time so the mech player is always behind the Protoss player in economy. Disruptor range also make it so that ground based compositions does not work since the Disruptor outrange even the siege tank. So if Disruptors got their range nerfed so it was the same as the siege tank and mech got some help taking a 3rd on time vs Protoss I think mech would be viable in TvP.
What is the actual range for a Nova? LP doesn't say and I have honestly no idea.
For taking a 3rd: How about a PF? Again honest question. From what I'm seeing most Terrans go for a 3rd Orbital and then 4+ base maybe a PF
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On February 05 2019 23:01 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2019 22:28 MockHamill wrote:On February 04 2019 07:46 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran. People are still stuck in the HOTS mindset. Immortals are not the hard counter to mech many believe. Tank/Hellbats beat mass immortals. Thors can also fight against Carrier/Tempest in the lategame, so late game air is no longer auto-win for Protoss vs mech. The reason mech is not viable in TvP is because mech have serious problems taking a 3rd at a reasonable time so the mech player is always behind the Protoss player in economy. Disruptor range also make it so that ground based compositions does not work since the Disruptor outrange even the siege tank. So if Disruptors got their range nerfed so it was the same as the siege tank and mech got some help taking a 3rd on time vs Protoss I think mech would be viable in TvP. What is the actual range for a Nova? LP doesn't say and I have honestly no idea. For taking a 3rd: How about a PF? Again honest question. From what I'm seeing most Terrans go for a 3rd Orbital and then 4+ base maybe a PF
Nova range is 13.5-14 vs 13 tank range. It outranges the tank a tiny bit so you can shoot a nova at a tank without getting hit even if the terran has vision.
PF on third is horrible. Mules and scans are absolutely mandatory, not only for economy or revealing, but also to scan the protoss tech/army since your composition has to be very finely tuned to counter your opponent's comp.
About the reasons why mech still isn't viable vs protoss i'd say :
- early game difficulties to land production without dying (switch from 1/1/1 to 1/3/1 for instance is very hard to perform without dying to blink harass, for instance, because you can't run around chasing stalkers with marauders and don't have enough tanks to secure your base)
- early game weakness to cheeses/allins (you don't have as much bio units in bunkers which is the bread and butter of terran defense, meaning that a 2 bases allin is extremely hard to defend)
- difficulties to take a third
- inability to push out in the early game (phenixes lift everything, blink stalkers kill medivacs and pretty much butcher everything that isn't bio inside, banshees negated by shield batteries) meaning that protoss can virtually secure unlimited amounts of economy with very little risk
- general difficulty to expand that gets more and more oppressive as the game goes on (protoss can expand and land 4 canons to prevent runbies, eventually adding batteries, has warp and generally mobile forces that can answer harass : mech needs to waste population to defend expands, neither of which really prevents big DT/zealots warpins from butchering bases, and doesn't have enough mobility to deflect protoss splitting forces smartly)
- mech has to be extraordinarily careful about engages/taking fights since chargelots are overwhelming whenever your wall of hellbats isn't there or dies too quickly. More broadly, protoss ground forces have better mobility and comparable firepower to mech units : immortal/archon/storm/chargelot will force you to get liberators/siege tank comps, which is insanely immobile while your firepower isn't that much better. Sprinkle disruptors outranging thors and you get an idea of what's wrong.
=> those two last points mean that mech needs to split its forces to defend its economy, but can't afford to do so because protoss has comparable firepower with more mobility
- carriers makes a mockery of thors while tempests butcher BCs, and vikings are worthless. Since the armor nerf on the thor and the interceptor attack change (only 1 attack instead of 2), + faster carrier build time and more HP + 14 leash range vs 11 thor range = thors get massacred. The answer to that is BCs, but tempests pretty much invalidate BCs from the matchup
- recall generally speaking makes mech insanely weak to tradebases (even poorly executed ones), because if protoss gets into your production fast, kills everything while you're slowly killing a fourth, then recalls to its third, you're dead (for instance)
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Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
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EPT
