|
4 Posts
[Blizzard post]
- The first season of 2019 has officially begun!
- A new Trophy Top has been added for those that win Tournaments in the new season.
- New features have been added to the WCS GameHeart Extension Mod.
- The mod will now automatically prevent skins from being displayed for players.
- Skins will be visible to Observers.
Balance
Terran
- Cyclone
- Mag-field Accelerator research time increased from 79 seconds to 100 seconds.
- Mag-field Accelerator upgrade tooltip updated.
- Lock-On tooltip updated.
- Thor
- High Impact Payload weapon range increased from 10 to 11.
- Battlecruiser
- Weapon Refit research time increased from 43 seconds to 100 seconds.
Zerg
- Infestor
- Fungal Growth tooltip updated to mention that affected units will not be able to Blink, Tactical Jump, or load into transports or buildings.
- Ultralisk
- Anabolic Synthesis upgrade now increases Ultralisk movement speed off creep by 0.82, up from 0.41.
- Nydus Network/Nydus Worm
- Nydus Worm health increased from 200 to 300.
- Nydus Worm armor while emerging decreased from 6 to 5.
- Nydus Network and Nydus Worm initial unload delay decreased from 0.36 to 018.
- Nydus Network and Nydus Worm unload period changed from 0.36 to 0.18.
- Nydus Network and Nydus Worm load period changed from 0.18 to 0.09.
Protoss
- Adept
- Gateway build time increased from 27 seconds to 30 seconds. Warp Gate cooldown remains unchanged.
- Cybernetics Core
- Warp Gate research time decreased from 114 seconds to 100 seconds.
- Stalker
- Blink research cost reduced from 150/150 to 100/100.
- Robotics Facility
- Cost decreased from 200/100 to 150/100.
- Immortal
- Cost increased from 250/100 to 275/100.
- Observer
- Movement speed increased from 2.63 to 3.01.
- Gravitic Boosters upgrade now increases movement speed by 1.51, up from 1.31.
- Oracle
- Removed the Light attribute.
- Added the Armored attribute.
- Tempest
- Movement speed decreased from 3.5 to 3.15.
- Acceleration decreased from 2.8 to 2.1.
Bug Fixes
Campaign
- Wings of Liberty: Fixed an issue in the Devil’s Playground mission that allowed enemy creep tumors to spawn on top of each other
- Legacy of the Void: Rebuilt enemy Oracles no longer use the default Protoss skin on the Rak’Shir mission .
Versus
- The Infestor's Fungal Growth tooltip now states that it prevents affected targets from using Blink and Tactical Jump, and loading into transports and buildings.
- Battlecruisers will now prioritize static defenses instead of workers.
- The Raven's Anti Armor missile button now matches the missile model.
- The Templar Archive research animation has been restored. [Fixed in 4.8.1]
- Decals will no longer persist on the ground if a Command Center had upgraded to an Orbital Command and lifted off from that location.
- The tooltip for the Cyclone’s Lock On after Mag-Field Accelerator has been researched has been edited to be more concise.
- Updated the format of the tooltips of Anabolic Synthesis, Muscular Augments, and Adaptive Talon upgrades to be consistent with other movement upgrade tooltips.
- Eggs will no longer block the optimal placement of a Hatchery after being destroyed.
Maps
- Kings Cove LE
- You can now wall-off your natural expansion with three buildings and one pylon as Protoss.
- Fixed a few areas that were not symmetric.
- Mineral nodes have been updated so the nodes closest to a player’s base will have the highest values.
- Year Zero LE: Prevented a two-Pylon, one-Photon-Cannon wall-in strategy in the starting bases.
- Cyber Forest LE: Corrected the location of base placement markers at certain bases.
- Ship Wrecked LE: Replaced missing water at certain locations on the map.
- Rosebud LE
- Fixed small visual distortions that would occur on certain doodads when rotating or zooming-in with the camera.
- Fixed several areas where certain doodads were clipping through the edge of the starting base.
- Replaced the blue Compound Mansion Carpets to red to prevent it from hiding faction emblem and selection circles.
- Restored ambient sounds throughout the map.
- Efflorescence LE
- The starting base buildings in the southwest will no longer appear to be floating slightly above the ground.
- Reduced the light reflection effect of water at certain angles.
UI
- Fixed the text for feardragon’s portrait.
- Fixed an issue that caused certain voice lines to not play for Zeratul, Han and Horner, Day[9], iNcontroL, SCBoy, Park, and Nathanias.
|
On January 23 2019 04:37 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote:[ Blizzard post] MapsKings Cove LE You can now wall-off your natural expansion with three buildings and one pylon as Protoss
Exquisite.
|
Quite disappointed to see they just went through with every single change they proposed despite the criticism they got throughout different forums/social media.
|
On January 23 2019 04:55 Creager wrote:
Quite disappointed to see they just went through with every single change they proposed despite the criticism they got throughout different forums/social media.
Yep, I didn't expect that to be honest.
|
A lot of the smaller stuff is quite interesting. Skins being visible to observers but not players through the Gameheart Mod, eggs not blocking hatcheries, and the King's Cove change stand out to me.
|
New features have been added to the WCS GameHeart Extension Mod.
The mod will now automatically prevent skins from being displayed for players.
Skins will be visible to Observers.
noicee!
|
Blizzard not testing anything before pushing out theory crafted balance changes. Meanwhile they respond immediately to the oracle bug fix
|
I'm not surprised they went through anyway, but disappointed they acknowledged none of the criticism. Some of which I believe should have been at least looked at. Like the thor buff nobody thinks is any good against Protoss but which probably makes brood lords really weak against mech.
|
On January 23 2019 04:55 Creager wrote:
Quite disappointed to see they just went through with every single change they proposed despite the criticism they got throughout different forums/social media.
A clusterfuck doesn't need democracy its need dictatorship to ensure everything goes through as fast as possible
They shouldve done this before blizzcon with much slower pace tbh but now it's too late they need to act quick to save macro tvp
|
biggest meme patch in sc2
|
Russian Federation205 Posts
nerf tempest . Nerf of already bad unit which nobody ever build . I cant understand that
|
On January 23 2019 05:53 Rail_sc2 wrote:
nerf tempest . Nerf of already bad unit which nobody ever build . I cant understand that
You are trolling right? Tempest nerf was the single most needed nerf in the game.
|
United States33493 Posts
I'm okay with experimenting with some aggressive changes since it's very difficult to predict what affect they will have without actually putting them into a REAL competitive environment. That said, Blizzard need to be able to respond quickly if there's a negative result, something they've been poor at in the past (they need to respond quicker, and also change their threshold for what a negative situation is).
|
Dominican Republic627 Posts
would it be a time when SC2 will stop doing balance changes? i mean when the game is going to be like broodwar in term of balance?
|
On January 23 2019 06:07 Waxangel wrote:
I'm okay with experimenting with some aggressive changes since it's very difficult to predict what affect they will have without actually putting them into a REAL competitive environment. That said, Blizzard need to be able to respond quickly if there's a negative result, something they've been poor at in the past (they need to respond quicker, and also change their threshold for what a negative situation is).
I think what you suggest is the wrong idea for Blizzard to implement. I think Blizzard should introduce less changes than they currently make. Cheaper blink upgrade and faster warp gate is such an obvious problem which was already experienced in HotS when blink stalkers all-in became famous. It won't be the same but blink all-in will become an issue at pro level in my opinion. You just can't make these 2 changes at the same time.
So, less changes -> give players 2-3 months to adapt -> patch if necessary or if there's a high priority problem with balance. I think this is what Blizzard should do.
|
Well whatever they do people won't be happy. "Let the meta settle" and people will be snarky, do the opposite and people will complain about "dramatic changes", and that sweet spot in the middle will lead people to say "they're just messing with numbers and have no direction". And people are surprised they aren't responding to the criticism.
|
Just before the GSL Code A ...
|
On January 23 2019 06:17 WaesumNinja wrote:
Well whatever they do people won't be happy. "Let the meta settle" and people will be snarky, do the opposite and people will complain about "dramatic changes", and that sweet spot in the middle will lead people to say "they're just messing with numbers and have no direction". And people are surprised they aren't responding to the criticism.
Well, they need to explain it better then. In programming, when you debug a problem, which in simpler words means to figure out why the bug occurs and maybe to fix it, you need to try one change at a time to see what helps. I think balance changes aren't any different. You want to make very few incremental changes to check your progress: have things improved? Is it better than before? What Blizzard are doing now are 10 or whatever changes AT ONCE. This is a huge risk for something to go wrong. It's like you have 10 houses on fire instead of 1-2. It's logical, just think about it. 
If they still want to make so many changes, Blizzard should use their previous PTR (Public Test Realm) approach so more people are able to test changes, but they don't do that anymore as far as I know. In this case, they should go with less changes at once.
|
All hope has lost. ZvT not fixed, Protoss is unstoppable now.
|
"Eggs will no longer block the optimal placement of a Hatchery after being destroyed."
HALLELUJAH
|
Has anyone played on King's Cove yet? The map looks poorly rendered on my computer for some reason.
|
On January 23 2019 06:07 Waxangel wrote:
I'm okay with experimenting with some aggressive changes since it's very difficult to predict what affect they will have without actually putting them into a REAL competitive environment. That said, Blizzard need to be able to respond quickly if there's a negative result, something they've been poor at in the past (they need to respond quicker, and also change their threshold for what a negative situation is).
So the pros are basically lab rats... That's the esport we need boyss! Not the one you think you do, but you don't!..
|
8751 Posts
On January 23 2019 07:10 InfestedNeurone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2019 06:07 Waxangel wrote:
I'm okay with experimenting with some aggressive changes since it's very difficult to predict what affect they will have without actually putting them into a REAL competitive environment. That said, Blizzard need to be able to respond quickly if there's a negative result, something they've been poor at in the past (they need to respond quicker, and also change their threshold for what a negative situation is). So the pros are basically lab rats
But this is true whether you make changes or not. If no changes were made, still no one could predict what builds the pros will be playing at the championships this year. They are either lab rats months into testing the previous version or they are lab rats doing day 1 testing of the current version. The previous version could get worse. There's no way to know.
|
The feedback on these changes is so ridiculous, 90% terran trolls.
The thors with 11 range and high impact load are murderous right now and the tempest has been severely gutted.
It seems like the idea was to strengthen protoss early game a bit in exchange for screwing over the golden fleet totally.
All these noob complaining about WG and stalkers? blink stalker builds have not been good for ages. Same goes for 4gate, these builds were strong and time critical when the eco was different and there was a mothership core.
Protoss hasn't won anything for a long time, maybe there is some reason for that? Sure in a big ball with aoe they still win but mobility wise they are inferior and in smaller groups they still get massacred and thats where the pros shine...
Anyway I'll be interested to see if anything good comes at all from the minor protoss buffs, because one thing is for sure: the nerfs on the tempest and the immortal cost are massive.
|
I like these changes except the Thor buff. It has enough air range to deal with broodlords already, and nobody uses thors to counter protoss deathball in the first place.
|
On January 23 2019 07:32 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2019 07:10 InfestedNeurone wrote:On January 23 2019 06:07 Waxangel wrote:
I'm okay with experimenting with some aggressive changes since it's very difficult to predict what affect they will have without actually putting them into a REAL competitive environment. That said, Blizzard need to be able to respond quickly if there's a negative result, something they've been poor at in the past (they need to respond quicker, and also change their threshold for what a negative situation is). So the pros are basically lab rats But this is true whether you make changes or not. If no changes were made, still no one could predict what builds the pros will be playing at the championships this year. They are either lab rats months into testing the previous version or they are lab rats doing day 1 testing of the current version. The previous version could get worse. There's no way to know.
Pros should make history not beta testing.
|
On January 23 2019 08:10 AntiHack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2019 07:32 NonY wrote:On January 23 2019 07:10 InfestedNeurone wrote:On January 23 2019 06:07 Waxangel wrote:
I'm okay with experimenting with some aggressive changes since it's very difficult to predict what affect they will have without actually putting them into a REAL competitive environment. That said, Blizzard need to be able to respond quickly if there's a negative result, something they've been poor at in the past (they need to respond quicker, and also change their threshold for what a negative situation is). So the pros are basically lab rats But this is true whether you make changes or not. If no changes were made, still no one could predict what builds the pros will be playing at the championships this year. They are either lab rats months into testing the previous version or they are lab rats doing day 1 testing of the current version. The previous version could get worse. There's no way to know. Pros should make history not beta testing.
so how then do you think balance changes should be implemented?
|
On January 23 2019 08:42 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2019 08:10 AntiHack wrote:On January 23 2019 07:32 NonY wrote:On January 23 2019 07:10 InfestedNeurone wrote:On January 23 2019 06:07 Waxangel wrote:
I'm okay with experimenting with some aggressive changes since it's very difficult to predict what affect they will have without actually putting them into a REAL competitive environment. That said, Blizzard need to be able to respond quickly if there's a negative result, something they've been poor at in the past (they need to respond quicker, and also change their threshold for what a negative situation is). So the pros are basically lab rats But this is true whether you make changes or not. If no changes were made, still no one could predict what builds the pros will be playing at the championships this year. They are either lab rats months into testing the previous version or they are lab rats doing day 1 testing of the current version. The previous version could get worse. There's no way to know. Pros should make history not beta testing. so how then do you think balance changes should be implemented?
Those are not balance chages, that's Blizz forcing their view of how you should play the game.
Especially after 10 years a game should see at most minor balance tweaks after a year or two of monitoring how the meta and the pro scene evolve.
Who said that game companies have to own esport? They should make games instead.
|
8751 Posts
On January 23 2019 08:10 AntiHack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2019 07:32 NonY wrote:On January 23 2019 07:10 InfestedNeurone wrote:On January 23 2019 06:07 Waxangel wrote:
I'm okay with experimenting with some aggressive changes since it's very difficult to predict what affect they will have without actually putting them into a REAL competitive environment. That said, Blizzard need to be able to respond quickly if there's a negative result, something they've been poor at in the past (they need to respond quicker, and also change their threshold for what a negative situation is). So the pros are basically lab rats But this is true whether you make changes or not. If no changes were made, still no one could predict what builds the pros will be playing at the championships this year. They are either lab rats months into testing the previous version or they are lab rats doing day 1 testing of the current version. The previous version could get worse. There's no way to know. Pros should make history not beta testing.
You should make sense.
|
Happy to see they corrected the walling issue on King's Cove.
Still skeptical of these changes but I'll give them a go later today. Should be interesting with a new season also starting.
|
Well for Protoss blink attack, the limiting factor is always blink timing being slower than WG even with chronoboost. This WG buff is going to address the fact that Protoss cannot expand without SG tech in PvZ, instead of SG into wtever every game right now in PvZ. I can’t see any of these Protoss changes making Protoss unstoppable.
|
I'm guessing the Infestor changes, BC nerfs and the targeting of static defense instead of workers (to a certain extent) make the BC opening less viable?
Also I can't believe the Ultra change went through, really sceptical about the MS being balanced when it's faster than stimmed bio off-creep.
I do like the change to eggs blocking replacement hatches, that always felt like a questionable feature to me.
|
They went with everything announecd. That's a first
|
On January 23 2019 07:10 InfestedNeurone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2019 06:07 Waxangel wrote:
I'm okay with experimenting with some aggressive changes since it's very difficult to predict what affect they will have without actually putting them into a REAL competitive environment. That said, Blizzard need to be able to respond quickly if there's a negative result, something they've been poor at in the past (they need to respond quicker, and also change their threshold for what a negative situation is). So the pros are basically lab rats... That's the esport we need boyss! Not the one you think you do, but you don't!..
Gaming is a special case when your customers (pro gamers) are also your employees. You can test your changes with your colleagues, but they probably don't play at a high level to figure out when a change isn't balanced at all levels. I think there are 2 options for Blizzard in this case:
- give pro gamers some rewards, preferably money, for testing and feedback
- Blizzard should employ mid-level or high-level pro gamers on a part-time contract to test changes but this is similar to the previous option
|
I'm low league player so balance doesn't concern me, but I watched several Master and GM Terran streams and they all struggled against Protoss. And it was before this patch that is buffing Protoss. Therefore I'm really confused with this changes.
I wonder what effect it will have on coming WCS Winter and IEM Katowice. I definitely don't want to see PvP fest.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 23 2019 16:50 Asturas wrote:
I'm low league player so balance doesn't concern me, but I watched several Master and GM Terran streams and they all struggled against Protoss. And it was before this patch that is buffing Protoss. Therefore I'm really confused with this changes.
I wonder what effect it will have on coming WCS Winter and IEM Katowice. I definitely don't want to see PvP fest.
WCS will be ZvZ fest as usual, calm down
|
Russian Federation205 Posts
I never seen any pro game since november big update on tournaments with successfull using of tempest . Even vs zergs protoss's builded void-rays , vs terrans those times protoss tryed do tempest was completely lose
|
Russian Federation205 Posts
I think people in blizzard and their acolytes from gold league live in different starcraft than progamers . Because it's really frustrating , how game-designers can nerf unit which nobody use on pro-scene ( because it's already bad and nerfed in november )
|
Austria24422 Posts
You might be able to go twilight/robo/2 extra gates again now. It used to be awkward because you couldn't afford blink for a while if you did, but I've now tried it 3 times and you can get blink pretty much right after the twilight finishes. It doesn't even interfere with stalker production I think. That build seems a lot safer to me this way.
|
On January 23 2019 18:19 Rail_sc2 wrote:
I think people in blizzard and their acolytes from gold league live in different starcraft than progamers . Because it's really frustrating , how game-designers can nerf unit which nobody use on pro-scene ( because it's already bad and nerfed in november )
Is it really fun for Protoss players to get allined every single game? I don't really understand - shouldn't it also be in Protoss players interest to equalize lategame so not every game is defend the tank allin or lose?
|
Happy PvPvZvZ (vMech?) everyone.
I'm out until some sanity come back.
|
Only change that truly makes sense here is the tempest nerf. Everything else is just nonsense, even the thor is getting buffed in the wrong direction.
|
Decent patch, blizz!
But could you please revert the chronoboost buff that was done at the start of LotV. Thanks!
Also, since the intoduction of deployable observers and templar autoattack macro became too easy for protoss. Reverting this as well could solve PvT issues.
|
The actual chronoboost isn't the same as the start of lotv, stop trying to troll when you don't know the changes .
|
On January 23 2019 21:46 DieuCure wrote:
The actual chronoboost isn't the same as the start of lotv, stop trying to troll when you don't know the changes .
No idea what are you talking about. There is an agreement between top pros that Lotv broke TvP. That happened because of chronoboost buff (compared to Hots version). I'm trying to help you out asking blizzard to solve the problem, why do you call me a troll?
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 23 2019 21:53 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2019 21:46 DieuCure wrote:
The actual chronoboost isn't the same as the start of lotv, stop trying to troll when you don't know the changes . No idea what are you talking about. There is an agreement between top pros that Lotv broke TvP. That happened because of chronoboost buff (compared to Hots version). I'm trying to help you out asking blizzard to solve the problem, why do you call me a troll?
First of all
2016 Code S LotV - 1P 1T
2017 Code S - 1P 2T
2018 Code S - 3T
Looks defintively broken beyond repair. But let's say Terrans are just better. BTW either we're at 0T titles or 4T titles this year 
1) Can you provide any source of your "There is an agreement between top pros that Lotv broke TvP"? Anything?
edit> Link to a TL post of Neeb would be awesome, but generally speaking any link to anything supporting your claim woudl be sufficient
2) Can you provide the numbers of how the chronoboost is changed and what values were before? Currently you're telling us you're not troll yet you won't support your arguments with the numbers. Provide the numbers, it's easy. Obviously people here don't remember the old Chronoboost so they need a reminder. Provide us this stuff so we can finally see how chronoboost needs the change!
This isn't really that hard, but currently you're operating with very vague arguments which are fishy.
|
On January 23 2019 19:19 xongnox wrote:
Happy PvPvZvZ (vMech?) everyone.
I'm out until some sanity come back.
I could live with a bit less games vs. terran. 50% of my games are vs. terran and my winrate is by far the worst against them. Still the strongest race after patch IMO.
|
The thor buff is too much. It will make mech invincible vs zerg. Think about it :thors outrange broodlords and vipers... While it auto-focus air units.... How is it possible to counters mass tanks +thors as zerg now ?
|
|
|
On January 24 2019 02:45 Tyrhanius wrote:
The thor buff is too much. It will make mech invincible vs zerg. Think about it :thors outrange broodlords and vipers... While it auto-focus air units.... How is it possible to counters mass tanks +thors as zerg now ?
Let the meta settle. The thor buff isnt too much, its only 1 range, the unit itself has still one of the derpiest ai, slow, and plenty of counters. If you struggle vs tank thor in your league, consider asking for help in the The LotV Zerg Help Me Thread
https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/499586-the-lotv-zerg-help-me-thread
|
On January 24 2019 04:14 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 02:45 Tyrhanius wrote:
The thor buff is too much. It will make mech invincible vs zerg. Think about it :thors outrange broodlords and vipers... While it auto-focus air units.... How is it possible to counters mass tanks +thors as zerg now ? Let the meta settle. The thor buff isnt too much, its only 1 range, the unit itself has still one of the derpiest ai, slow, and plenty of counters. If you struggle vs tank thor in your league, consider asking for help in the The LotV Zerg Help Me Thread https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/499586-the-lotv-zerg-help-me-thread
Thats actually huge... 1 more range than broods and vipers...is a BIG BIG DEAL.
Imagine an army of thors, ghosts, few tanks, some hellbats. If the tanks are well spread, and if you add upgraded turrets and planetaries in the mix, it is, on paper, literally unbreakable in the current state of things.
We are gonna have to work those swarm hosts like crazy, because tier 3 zerg might not be viable against super late game mech terran currently. Will need to test things, but when broodlords lost 1 range and became equal to thors in range, it changed a LOT. Having 1 less range than thors might be too much.
Have they even tested it in a unit tester? This patch is like...everything no1 ever asked for...
Blink/wg buff, nydus buffs, thors +1 range buff against massive...
What are they even thinking -.-.
Maybe we should consider giving broodlords an escape mechanism similar to protoss recall or BC tactical jump? Because right now they are the slowest clunkiest most vulnerable massive air unit, while being the most vulnerable one with the biggest weakness ( only one that cant attack air and needs support even against ground).
I feel like broodlords need an escape mechanism or small mobility buff to be less *all-in*.
Theres no retreating currently with broodlords in most scenarios. They are also incredibly weak in base races, and cant really catch any unit in the game unless the other player lets it happen.
In theory, you never have to fight against broodlords, you can always take your army run and fight somewhere else or base trade.
|
Eggs will no longer block the optimal placement of a Hatchery after being destroyed.
Huge!
This is SUCH a pain in that arse! Thank you Blizz
|
Right now thors are completely useless against broodlords so a change needed to happen
|
On January 23 2019 04:55 Creager wrote:
Quite disappointed to see they just went through with every single change they proposed despite the criticism they got throughout different forums/social media.
Wasnt it almost always like this and "wait and let the meta evolve"?
|
i think using thors is just a more friendly option against late game zerg since late game tvz is from balanced to favored to terran depend on players but it's all about ghosts and ghosts and controlling that mass ghosts army aint hard tho..
it is not hard it's just too hard
|
On January 24 2019 06:30 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 04:14 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On January 24 2019 02:45 Tyrhanius wrote:
The thor buff is too much. It will make mech invincible vs zerg. Think about it :thors outrange broodlords and vipers... While it auto-focus air units.... How is it possible to counters mass tanks +thors as zerg now ? Let the meta settle. The thor buff isnt too much, its only 1 range, the unit itself has still one of the derpiest ai, slow, and plenty of counters. If you struggle vs tank thor in your league, consider asking for help in the The LotV Zerg Help Me Thread https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/499586-the-lotv-zerg-help-me-thread Thats actually huge... 1 more range than broods and vipers...is a BIG BIG DEAL. Imagine an army of thors, ghosts, few tanks, some hellbats. If the tanks are well spread, and if you add upgraded turrets and planetaries in the mix, it is, on paper, literally unbreakable in the current state of things. We are gonna have to work those swarm hosts like crazy, because tier 3 zerg might not be viable against super late game mech terran currently. Will need to test things, but when broodlords lost 1 range and became equal to thors in range, it changed a LOT. Having 1 less range than thors might be too much. Have they even tested it in a unit tester? This patch is like...everything no1 ever asked for... Blink/wg buff, nydus buffs, thors +1 range buff against massive... What are they even thinking -.-. Maybe we should consider giving broodlords an escape mechanism similar to protoss recall or BC tactical jump? Because right now they are the slowest clunkiest most vulnerable massive air unit, while being the most vulnerable one with the biggest weakness ( only one that cant attack air and needs support even against ground). I feel like broodlords need an escape mechanism or small mobility buff to be less *all-in*. Theres no retreating currently with broodlords in most scenarios. They are also incredibly weak in base races, and cant really catch any unit in the game unless the other player lets it happen. In theory, you never have to fight against broodlords, you can always take your army run and fight somewhere else or base trade.
You should stop treating broodlords as a "GG, I win the game" unit. They are not, and no unit should be like that.
|
I actually like the patch. Am I crazy?
|
On January 24 2019 09:08 StarscreamG1 wrote:
I actually like the patch. Am I crazy?
No, You're just a Protoss player 
Jokes aside I feel like both T and Z find some changes to hard to swallow that's where the whining comes from.
I mean Zergs are terrified of BL and vipers being owned by Thor-based mech armies while Terrans are having PTSD flashbacks of blink-era.
Me myself I'm not sure. These are not the changes I was asking for but I can see merit and reason behind them.
Will see I guess.
|
On January 24 2019 08:55 Loccstana wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2019 06:30 Snakestyle11 wrote:On January 24 2019 04:14 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On January 24 2019 02:45 Tyrhanius wrote:
The thor buff is too much. It will make mech invincible vs zerg. Think about it :thors outrange broodlords and vipers... While it auto-focus air units.... How is it possible to counters mass tanks +thors as zerg now ? Let the meta settle. The thor buff isnt too much, its only 1 range, the unit itself has still one of the derpiest ai, slow, and plenty of counters. If you struggle vs tank thor in your league, consider asking for help in the The LotV Zerg Help Me Thread https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/499586-the-lotv-zerg-help-me-thread Thats actually huge... 1 more range than broods and vipers...is a BIG BIG DEAL. Imagine an army of thors, ghosts, few tanks, some hellbats. If the tanks are well spread, and if you add upgraded turrets and planetaries in the mix, it is, on paper, literally unbreakable in the current state of things. We are gonna have to work those swarm hosts like crazy, because tier 3 zerg might not be viable against super late game mech terran currently. Will need to test things, but when broodlords lost 1 range and became equal to thors in range, it changed a LOT. Having 1 less range than thors might be too much. Have they even tested it in a unit tester? This patch is like...everything no1 ever asked for... Blink/wg buff, nydus buffs, thors +1 range buff against massive... What are they even thinking -.-. Maybe we should consider giving broodlords an escape mechanism similar to protoss recall or BC tactical jump? Because right now they are the slowest clunkiest most vulnerable massive air unit, while being the most vulnerable one with the biggest weakness ( only one that cant attack air and needs support even against ground). I feel like broodlords need an escape mechanism or small mobility buff to be less *all-in*. Theres no retreating currently with broodlords in most scenarios. They are also incredibly weak in base races, and cant really catch any unit in the game unless the other player lets it happen. In theory, you never have to fight against broodlords, you can always take your army run and fight somewhere else or base trade. You should stop treating broodlords as a "GG, I win the game" unit. They are not, and no unit should be like that.
Brood Lords are the slowest end-game air unit, cost 300/250 total (more than Tempest, slightly less than Carriers), have the lowest health, ONLY ATTACK GROUND, have the lowest DPS out of all of them, and need to be present in large numbers (6+) to be effective. In exchange, they can be produced in bulk more readily and only cost 4 supply, which balances out the extra supply Z has tied up in Drones and Queens.
They're not supposed to be an automatic "GG I win" unit but they're extremely vulnerable and cannot retreat or defend themselves if their support is eliminated. If they DON'T end the game, they cease to have much function outside of a 45-minute-plus turtle fest. They're simply too immobile and inflexible to be used outside of a hardcore turtle or a finishing blow.
|
On January 24 2019 09:08 StarscreamG1 wrote:
I actually like the patch. Am I crazy?
i actually feel the same!
and i really think ppl look on this changes the wrong way:
the robotics and blink cost reduction, along with WG shorter time
are to allow protoss NOT go for stargate openers, and still defend against pheonix and banshees.
cloaked banshees is more popular than ever, across all match ups.
oracle and pheonix allow protoss to easily defend against it, making oracle harass opening too flexible to pass.
by reducing robotics facility cost and buffing observer speed, protoss can safely seek other tech path.
so yah, protoss might switch to blink openers, but now a days terran has much more tools too deal with it.
sure, they might harass a bit (instead of using oracles), but i don't think it would turn into game ending strategy.
after the early game, the protoss now face price increase to immortals and slower tempest.
terran has been complaining about mid-late protoss army and now it got nerfed, so give it a chance before bickering.
the thor buff is a bit alarming, as it is now outranges both tempest and BL.
it will also make it harder to use vipers, which are the primary tool for zerg vs mech in the late game.
moreover, it can affect the air superiority battles in TvT, and even rander liberators obsolete.
still, no matter the changes the thor has never been able to become a staple unit,
so it's anyone's guess as to how significant this will turn out to be.
as for the rest, it looks solid (imo).
ultralisk speed was the only noticeable buff zerg got last patch, along with a sh1tpile of nerfs,
and it turned out to be a lackluster upgrade, so it stands to reason to make it more reliable.
it's still unclear how the nydus change would turn out, partly because they barely see any use,
so hopefully this will push them forward without making them un-counterable (as they were pre-nerf).
the cyclone and BC changes are in order to increase the time before they unlock their full power.
i'm actually a bit surprised to see them treated so mildly, probably to still allow cyclones to be utilized vs blink.
|
I keep getting dropped from battle.net on New Repugnancy, anyone else experiencing issues?
|
Got into some ladder! Protoss has never been so fun! I can finally open robo first against zerg and do all kinds of silly things.
My favorite game was my last one: I went core nexus robo twilight and harassed with a warp prism and 1 stalker, then 4 glaive adepts, and then transitioned into shield upgrades, blink, and disruptors. I could never dream of rocking such a build in the last patch. So much fun.
The only game I got completely dominated in was against a meching terran. Times have changed :D
|
I don't mind them doing a change like this as long as they respond quickly to negative effects, like certain other people say.. I just hope they communicate somewhat closer to the community. Or at least show that they interact a lot with players / community, if they already do so. Even if they had one employee publicly spending a few hours per release cycle to interact with the community, they wouldn't get such a negative image. "Negative image" might be the wrong word, but you know what I mean.
|
On January 25 2019 01:28 Elentos wrote:
I keep getting dropped from battle.net on New Repugnancy, anyone else experiencing issues?
I had an opponent drop on that map. It seemed weird because neither of us had connection issues. I thought they had just disconnected their internet or something after their proxy failed.
|
So I played around with the new thor a bit and damn, they really wreck carriers and tempests now, might even be a little bit too strong.
Giving terran an answer to those units was definitely the right thing as no race should be on a timer but I wished they'd have buffed the viking instead because the thor buff seems to mainly benefit mech as it's quite hard to transition to thors as a bio player.
I really think mech will be the way to go now in tvp with bio being hardcountered by so many things and now even the timings being weaker due to the early game protoss buffs.
|
On January 25 2019 17:57 Charoisaur wrote:
So I played around with the new thor a bit and damn, they really wreck carriers and tempests now, might even be a little bit too strong.
Giving terran an answer to those units was definitely the right thing as no race should be on a timer but I wished they'd have buffed the viking instead because the thor buff seems to mainly benefit mech as it's quite hard to transition to thors as a bio player.
I really think mech will be the way to go now in tvp with bio being hardcountered by so many things and now even the timings being weaker due to the early game protoss buffs.
Have you had the chance to try versus broodlords? im really afraid thors are gonna MURDER broodlords.
|
On January 25 2019 17:57 Charoisaur wrote:
So I played around with the new thor a bit and damn, they really wreck carriers and tempests now, might even be a little bit too strong.
Giving terran an answer to those units was definitely the right thing as no race should be on a timer but I wished they'd have buffed the viking instead because the thor buff seems to mainly benefit mech as it's quite hard to transition to thors as a bio player.
I really think mech will be the way to go now in tvp with bio being hardcountered by so many things and now even the timings being weaker due to the early game protoss buffs. TBH I think this is okay: with the armor nerf Thors lost a lot of tankiness and they're a slow, plodding 6 supply tier 3 ground unit. They should perform well against Tempests based on mobility and cost differences. It will also serve to make the army interactions vs. Carriers more akin to BW PvT, where the balance between anti-air and anti-ground units is super important, since Thors can be cost effectively dealt with by upgraded Gateway/Robo mixes.
As a Z I would love to see BL range pushed back up to 11 to match but I don't feel super strongly about it. Thors are super cool and require good positioning and game sense or multitasking via dropships to mitigate their weaknesses, and are generally pretty vulnerable if they're at the front of the army.
|
TvP mech is in a better position post patch due to Thors no longer being worthless in the matchup.
It is still Protoss favored but it is not impossible since Thors can actually trade vs Tempest and Carriers now. This is ladder level though, I doubt we will see any TvP mech games at pro level.
|
On January 25 2019 18:13 Snakestyle11 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2019 17:57 Charoisaur wrote:
So I played around with the new thor a bit and damn, they really wreck carriers and tempests now, might even be a little bit too strong.
Giving terran an answer to those units was definitely the right thing as no race should be on a timer but I wished they'd have buffed the viking instead because the thor buff seems to mainly benefit mech as it's quite hard to transition to thors as a bio player.
I really think mech will be the way to go now in tvp with bio being hardcountered by so many things and now even the timings being weaker due to the early game protoss buffs. Have you had the chance to try versus broodlords? im really afraid thors are gonna MURDER broodlords.
Probably but I think Zerg can handle thor armies better than toss due to abduct and neural parasite being very strong vs thors.
|
On January 25 2019 17:57 Charoisaur wrote:
So I played around with the new thor a bit and damn, they really wreck carriers and tempests now, might even be a little bit too strong.
Giving terran an answer to those units was definitely the right thing as no race should be on a timer but I wished they'd have buffed the viking instead because the thor buff seems to mainly benefit mech as it's quite hard to transition to thors as a bio player.
I really think mech will be the way to go now in tvp with bio being hardcountered by so many things and now even the timings being weaker due to the early game protoss buffs.
Bio has a bigger problem with tempests, and the speed nerf will help Vikings deal with them better now.
|
On January 26 2019 00:47 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2019 17:57 Charoisaur wrote:
So I played around with the new thor a bit and damn, they really wreck carriers and tempests now, might even be a little bit too strong.
Giving terran an answer to those units was definitely the right thing as no race should be on a timer but I wished they'd have buffed the viking instead because the thor buff seems to mainly benefit mech as it's quite hard to transition to thors as a bio player.
I really think mech will be the way to go now in tvp with bio being hardcountered by so many things and now even the timings being weaker due to the early game protoss buffs. Bio has a bigger problem with tempests, and the speed nerf will help Vikings deal with them better now.
Yup. In cases where the tempests get isolated, it's also much easier for stimmed marines to get to them too.
|
:DDDDD i like how they decided that Terran couldnt hide strats enough so better make observers ferraris in sky so now you can't hide anything AND have to defend all earlygame aggro as terran in TvP.
I honestly want the drugs Blizzard balance team is taking. That has to be good shit
|
Blizzard is awful at these balance changes.
I dont know how late game Zerg will be able to do anything against Terran with this buff. 11 ground to air range is insane. discounting their logistical/design weaknesses, Thors are already pound-for-pound very strong.
Protoss and Zerg rely on their T3 air units to break otherwise unbreakable terran positions. Carriers and Tempests are both neutered now and the slow, expensive, vulnerable brood lords lost such an integral advantage they had over the terran army. Vipers have problems too
Blizzard made tempests more fragile at and gave them more speed. okay. now they took speed away without giving anything back....just lol. Carriers are trash too.
I dont know why Blizzard keeps kowtowing to Terran players. I've been playing mostly terran for the last few weeks and probably gonna make the switch to main it. The units just keep getting pound for pound stronger....like they even nerfed the immortal for no reason lmfao
User was warned for this post.
|
On January 26 2019 07:17 BerserkSword wrote:
Blizzard is awful at these balance changes.
I dont know how late game Zerg will be able to do anything against Terran with this buff. 11 ground to air range is insane. discounting their logistical/design weaknesses, Thors are already pound-for-pound very strong.
Protoss and Zerg rely on their T3 air units to break otherwise unbreakable terran positions. Carriers and Tempests are both neutered now and the slow, expensive, vulnerable brood lords lost such an integral advantage they had over the terran army. Vipers have problems too
Blizzard made tempests more fragile at and gave them more speed. okay. now they took speed away without giving anything back....just lol. Carriers are trash too.
I dont know why Blizzard keeps kowtowing to Terran players. I've been playing mostly terran for the last few weeks and probably gonna make the switch to main it. The units just keep getting pound for pound stronger....like they even nerfed the immortal for no reason lmfao
"Warpgate buildtime decrease"
"Blink cost decrease"
"Robo cost decrease"
"Cyclone nerf"
"BC nerf"
Yeah why do they keep kowtowing to terrans?
|
Poland425 Posts
Omg. Just nerf the chronoboost already. It's the source of all TvP and ZvP problems. Zerg's larvae was nerfed to the ground, chronoboost was buffed or left unchanged almost. It will fix all the problems. Situation where P can get better economy than Zerg or Terran so quickly with having so powerful units is unhealthy and design breaking.
|
Can't say I'm enjoying the new maps much outside of King's Cove as a Protoss player. Several zerg players I've played have already seemingly figured out swarmhosts are really good on Cyber Forest against protoss. There's a really good spot that can hit both the third and fourth that's up a ramp. Also, that ramp that leads into between the pocket third, the distant third, and the natural is insanely good for tank pushes. Terran can park a tank at the top of the ramp and then trap the opponent either up their natural or at the third since a sieged tank can hit both.
I do wish they would have kept Cerulean Falls and replaced one of Port Aleksander or Kairos Junction since both of those maps are kinda similar. Cerulean Falls was easily one of my favourite maps they've had since I started playing again a year ago.
It doesn't help that it's the start of the season so almost every game is bronze league caliber cheese but with better mechanics because people are looking for easy wins. I've seriously thought about taking a week off to let all the people who just play for the first two weeks of the season then stop after they get bored of cheesing get their fill.
|
Hey blizzard, if you are reading this.
What's the purpose of the thor buff?
I though everyone learned the lesson with 2hour stalemates already (Hots SH). But you keep forcing this shit every now and then, like once in 2 years or so. On and on. I'm just telling you, on the behalf of the community: Noone wants mech. Its a degenerative strat that needs to be gone forever.
I just can't wrap my head around what's so fun and innovative about camping with bazzilion of tanks/hellbats behind planetaries, sensor towers (btw how this structure is still in the game?) and turrets. And let's be honest: This is the only thing that mech is about. It promotes that exact kind of play. And you just made this absolete with thors. Basically all you need now is tank and thor (hellbat and few ghosts - optional) to dominate the entire protoss arsenal. A pure ground army! No kind of composition can do shit about just those 2 terran GROUND units (and even if they can, you need much more investment to stay at best even). When i play vs mech i feel like i'm 11 years old again playing bw on BigHunters. Is this the best gameplay you can provide with all the experience and knowledge you accumulated throughout 20 years of starcraft? For fucks sake.
And before those accomplished 4k terrans start forcing their usual nonsense, i'd want to say that i never asked for blink/robo/wg/tempest w/e "buffs" (robo wasn't even buffed, starting from third immortal you basically spend more money to continue production, but terrans count that as a "buff" anyways, i don't care). I never even asked for zealot charge buff. You can revert that but, for the sake of this game, that has just recovered from stalemate, stop buffing imbecile strats and units like thor.
If you want to shake things up i got an idea for that: remove SH, Tempest and Cyclone from the game. Revert all protoss "buffs", noone needs them anyways. Revert mines nerf, w/e. But leave mech out of this game.
|
On January 29 2019 18:49 insitelol wrote:
Hey blizzard, if you are reading this.
What's the purpose of the thor buff?
I though everyone learned the lesson with 2hour stalemates already (Hots SH). But you keep forcing this shit every now and then, like once in 2 years or so. On and on. I'm just telling you, on the behalf of the community: Noone wants mech. Its a degenerative strat that needs to be gone forever.
I just can't wrap my head around what's so fun and innovative about camping with bazzilion of tanks/hellbats behind planetaries, sensor towers (btw how this structure is still in the game?) and turrets. And let's be honest: This is the only thing that mech is about. It promotes that exact kind of play. And you just made this absolete with thors. Basically all you need now is tank and thor (hellbat and few ghosts - optional) to dominate the entire protoss arsenal. A pure ground army! No kind of composition can do shit about just those 2 terran GROUND units (and even if they can, you need much more investment to stay at best even). When i play vs mech i feel like i'm 11 years old again playing bw on BigHunters. Is this the best gameplay you can provide with all the experience and knowledge you accumulated throughout 20 years of starcraft? For fucks sake.
And before those accomplished 4k terrans start forcing their usual nonsense, i'd want to say that i never asked for blink/robo/wg/tempest w/e "buffs" (robo wasn't even buffed, starting from third immortal you basically spend more money to continue production, but terrans count that as a "buff" anyways, i don't care). I never even asked for zealot charge buff. You can revert that but, for the sake of this game, that has just recovered from stalemate, stop buffing imbecile strats and units like thor.
If you want to shake things up i got an idea for that: remove SH, Tempest and Cyclone from the game. Revert all protoss "buffs", noone needs them anyways. Revert mines nerf, w/e. But leave mech out of this game.
Im finding it harder and harder to believe youre a protoss player lol.
Plenty of people want mech. Its less apm intensive than bio, which suits a lot of people. Also just because classic mech is historically not used much in TvP, its VERY much used in TvZ. The thor change is a bit too strong in TvZ imo, but does almost nothing for TvP. I haven't had a lot of people go classic mech against me, but when they do, oh look a few immortals and walaa ive countered most of their army, if youre struggling vs mech as P I would recommend watching a few vids, its most likely a playstyle issue or you just have a bit to figure out and then youll realize that mech in TvP is NOT usually the better option (unless its battlemech, which im still in the air about).
Overall, you don't represent most of the community. Blizz please if youre reading this, ignore this mans views. Mech is a huge part of this game.
|
Honestly if it was not for mech I would have left SC2 a long time ago.
Mech is more interesting than bio since it relies more on decision making and less on mechanics, although you still need good mechanics with mech, but not insanely good as with bio.
Also the turle mech you describe do not happen in my experience. It did happen back in hots when mass Ravens was a thing but now Terrran always have the incentive to end the game before Protoss can go up to 200 supply in gas heavy units.
The race most likely to turtle is instead Protoss who still have their golden armada with ht support. It is not as broken as it was before now when the Carrier has been nerfed and the Thor improved, but is still the strongest composition in the game.
Why Blizzard decided to give the race with with the largest number of hard to scout cheeses the strongest late game is bit strange in my opinion. But Protoss design has always felt a bit off compared to the other races.
|
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 31 2019 02:46 MockHamill wrote:
Honestly if it was not for mech I would have left SC2 a long time ago.
Mech is more interesting than bio since it relies more on decision making and less on mechanics, although you still need good mechanics with mech, but not insanely good as with bio.
Also the turle mech you describe do not happen in my experience. It did happen back in hots when mass Ravens was a thing but now Terrran always have the incentive to end the game before Protoss can go up to 200 supply in gas heavy units.
The race most likely to turtle is instead Protoss who still have their golden armada with ht support. It is not as broken as it was before now when the Carrier has been nerfed and the Thor improved, but is still the strongest composition in the game.
Why Blizzard decided to give the race with with the largest number of hard to scout cheeses the strongest late game is bit strange in my opinion. But Protoss design has always felt a bit off compared to the other races.
It doesn't happen on YOUR level(and in pro play) 
|
On January 29 2019 18:49 insitelol wrote:
Hey blizzard, if you are reading this.
What's the purpose of the thor buff?
I though everyone learned the lesson with 2hour stalemates already (Hots SH). But you keep forcing this shit every now and then, like once in 2 years or so. On and on. I'm just telling you, on the behalf of the community: Noone wants mech. Its a degenerative strat that needs to be gone forever.
I just can't wrap my head around what's so fun and innovative about camping with bazzilion of tanks/hellbats behind planetaries, sensor towers (btw how this structure is still in the game?) and turrets. And let's be honest: This is the only thing that mech is about. It promotes that exact kind of play. And you just made this absolete with thors. Basically all you need now is tank and thor (hellbat and few ghosts - optional) to dominate the entire protoss arsenal. A pure ground army! No kind of composition can do shit about just those 2 terran GROUND units (and even if they can, you need much more investment to stay at best even). When i play vs mech i feel like i'm 11 years old again playing bw on BigHunters. Is this the best gameplay you can provide with all the experience and knowledge you accumulated throughout 20 years of starcraft? For fucks sake.
And before those accomplished 4k terrans start forcing their usual nonsense, i'd want to say that i never asked for blink/robo/wg/tempest w/e "buffs" (robo wasn't even buffed, starting from third immortal you basically spend more money to continue production, but terrans count that as a "buff" anyways, i don't care). I never even asked for zealot charge buff. You can revert that but, for the sake of this game, that has just recovered from stalemate, stop buffing imbecile strats and units like thor.
If you want to shake things up i got an idea for that: remove SH, Tempest and Cyclone from the game. Revert all protoss "buffs", noone needs them anyways. Revert mines nerf, w/e. But leave mech out of this game.
Did I just read "No protoss ground unit can do shit against a Thor/tank composition"?
Have you heard of the unit called the "Immortal"?
|
On January 31 2019 07:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2019 18:49 insitelol wrote:
Hey blizzard, if you are reading this.
What's the purpose of the thor buff?
I though everyone learned the lesson with 2hour stalemates already (Hots SH). But you keep forcing this shit every now and then, like once in 2 years or so. On and on. I'm just telling you, on the behalf of the community: Noone wants mech. Its a degenerative strat that needs to be gone forever.
I just can't wrap my head around what's so fun and innovative about camping with bazzilion of tanks/hellbats behind planetaries, sensor towers (btw how this structure is still in the game?) and turrets. And let's be honest: This is the only thing that mech is about. It promotes that exact kind of play. And you just made this absolete with thors. Basically all you need now is tank and thor (hellbat and few ghosts - optional) to dominate the entire protoss arsenal. A pure ground army! No kind of composition can do shit about just those 2 terran GROUND units (and even if they can, you need much more investment to stay at best even). When i play vs mech i feel like i'm 11 years old again playing bw on BigHunters. Is this the best gameplay you can provide with all the experience and knowledge you accumulated throughout 20 years of starcraft? For fucks sake.
And before those accomplished 4k terrans start forcing their usual nonsense, i'd want to say that i never asked for blink/robo/wg/tempest w/e "buffs" (robo wasn't even buffed, starting from third immortal you basically spend more money to continue production, but terrans count that as a "buff" anyways, i don't care). I never even asked for zealot charge buff. You can revert that but, for the sake of this game, that has just recovered from stalemate, stop buffing imbecile strats and units like thor.
If you want to shake things up i got an idea for that: remove SH, Tempest and Cyclone from the game. Revert all protoss "buffs", noone needs them anyways. Revert mines nerf, w/e. But leave mech out of this game.
Did I just read "No protoss ground unit can do shit against a Thor/tank composition"? Have you heard of the unit called the "Immortal"?
Have you tried attacking into 30 tanks in siege mode with 8 thors in front of them with pure immortal army? Have you tried the same thing with terran camping behind a planetary? Want me to give you a hint what happens if terran gets 3 ghosts to support that?
|
On January 31 2019 21:27 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 07:07 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2019 18:49 insitelol wrote:
Hey blizzard, if you are reading this.
What's the purpose of the thor buff?
I though everyone learned the lesson with 2hour stalemates already (Hots SH). But you keep forcing this shit every now and then, like once in 2 years or so. On and on. I'm just telling you, on the behalf of the community: Noone wants mech. Its a degenerative strat that needs to be gone forever.
I just can't wrap my head around what's so fun and innovative about camping with bazzilion of tanks/hellbats behind planetaries, sensor towers (btw how this structure is still in the game?) and turrets. And let's be honest: This is the only thing that mech is about. It promotes that exact kind of play. And you just made this absolete with thors. Basically all you need now is tank and thor (hellbat and few ghosts - optional) to dominate the entire protoss arsenal. A pure ground army! No kind of composition can do shit about just those 2 terran GROUND units (and even if they can, you need much more investment to stay at best even). When i play vs mech i feel like i'm 11 years old again playing bw on BigHunters. Is this the best gameplay you can provide with all the experience and knowledge you accumulated throughout 20 years of starcraft? For fucks sake.
And before those accomplished 4k terrans start forcing their usual nonsense, i'd want to say that i never asked for blink/robo/wg/tempest w/e "buffs" (robo wasn't even buffed, starting from third immortal you basically spend more money to continue production, but terrans count that as a "buff" anyways, i don't care). I never even asked for zealot charge buff. You can revert that but, for the sake of this game, that has just recovered from stalemate, stop buffing imbecile strats and units like thor.
If you want to shake things up i got an idea for that: remove SH, Tempest and Cyclone from the game. Revert all protoss "buffs", noone needs them anyways. Revert mines nerf, w/e. But leave mech out of this game.
Did I just read "No protoss ground unit can do shit against a Thor/tank composition"? Have you heard of the unit called the "Immortal"? Have you tried attacking into 30 tanks in siege mode with 8 thors in front of them with pure immortal army? Have you tried the same thing with terran camping behind a planetary? Want me to give you a hint what happens if terran gets 3 ghosts to support that?
Ridiculous situation where you have 90 supply in tanks and 48 supply in thors, meaning that 50 amoved chargelots will win. And even if you try to take that on with full immortals, you'll end up butchering the thors then trading nearly cost-effectively with tanks if you engage in a concave.
I just love how some people don't get that units that need to be bolted into the f*cking ground to shoot are supposed to have superior firepower. Next time i shove 100 supply of bio into 100 supply of burrowed lurkers i suppose i'll start crying too.
Back to reality : protoss ground armies butcher most mech compositions out on the map if they engage correctly. The only exception is full tanks/hellbats/liberators, which is extremely static and make a tempest switch extremely powerful. In defensive situations mech is harder to engage frontally, which is a given if you want the comp to have any relevance. However, the superior mobility of protoss ground armies usually makes breaking a terran player using multi proned attacks quite easy, especially on superior economy.
Mech is much better versus protoss now, but it's still a mediocre playstyle compared to bio, because the cyclone is still a horribly designed unit and that late game is still nearly impossible to play (triple recall, skytoss, free static defense vs terran needing to invest a lot of population to secure expands, etc)
|
On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Ridiculous situation where you have 90 supply in tanks and 48 supply in thors, meaning that 50 amoved chargelots will win. And even if you try to take that on with full immortals, you'll end up butchering the thors then trading nearly cost-effectively with tanks if you engage in a concave.
Now we are talking. Just tell me how am i supposed to have a concave on current map pool vs half decent terran who spams sensor towers and planetaries on the map and moves out only on secured positions? I can waltz around him with as you put it "far mobile army" forever but whats the purpose if i can't fucking engage him ever? He will still get his half of the map.
On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
I just love how some people don't get that units that need to be bolted into the f*cking ground to shoot are supposed to have superior firepower. Next time i shove 100 supply of bio into 100 supply of burrowed lurkers i suppose i'll start crying too.
I never said i shove immortals into tanks, because i never do that. It was Charoisaur who proposed that.
on a serious note: im well aware that 360 angles obliterate unsieged mech, don't worry.
On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Back to reality : protoss ground armies butcher most mech compositions out on the map if they engage correctly. The only exception is full tanks/hellbats/liberators, which is extremely static and make a tempest switch extremely powerful.
Exactly. That's what my initial post was about. Try switching to tempest with 11 range thors. Have you watched recent TY streams? Would definitely recommend.
On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
In defensive situations mech is harder to engage frontally, which is a given if you want the comp to have any relevance. However, the superior mobility of protoss ground armies usually makes breaking a terran player using multi proned attacks quite easy, especially on superior economy.
Already commented on that.
On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Mech is much better versus protoss now, but it's still a mediocre playstyle compared to bio, because the cyclone is still a horribly designed unit and that late game is still nearly impossible to play (triple recall, skytoss, free static defense vs terran needing to invest a lot of population to secure expands, etc)
What's triple recall? (no kidding, just wondering), static defense issues? (Didnt get that too, sorry). Skytoss. Well as i said thors alone murder tempests now. Have not tried full carrier limit, but something tells me there is a reason protoss never go carrier vs terran.
All in all. I'm not saying mech is 100% unbeatable. But its MUCH more stronger now and easier to execute. Yes, the reason behind my rant is that i don't want to adjust my plays to mech playstyles, because it promotes long stalemates. The exact thing that happened to SC2 during SH era. That whole playstyle is pure cancer and should be gone. Devs should not support camping. To everyone who struggles with bio - switch race or go play c&c generals or w/e. And yes, that's my personal opinion. Consider it a design whine.
|
On January 31 2019 23:36 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Ridiculous situation where you have 90 supply in tanks and 48 supply in thors, meaning that 50 amoved chargelots will win. And even if you try to take that on with full immortals, you'll end up butchering the thors then trading nearly cost-effectively with tanks if you engage in a concave. Now we are talking. Just tell me how am i supposed to have a concave on current map pool vs half decent terran who spams sensor towers and planetaries on the map and moves out only on secured positions? I can waltz around him with as you put it "far mobile army" forever but whats the purpose if i can't fucking engage him ever? He will still get his half of the map. Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
I just love how some people don't get that units that need to be bolted into the f*cking ground to shoot are supposed to have superior firepower. Next time i shove 100 supply of bio into 100 supply of burrowed lurkers i suppose i'll start crying too. I never said i shove immortals into tanks, because i never do that. It was Chairosaur who proposed that. on a serious note: im well aware that 360 angles obliterate unsieged mech, don't worry. Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Back to reality : protoss ground armies butcher most mech compositions out on the map if they engage correctly. The only exception is full tanks/hellbats/liberators, which is extremely static and make a tempest switch extremely powerful. Exactly. That's what my initial post was about. Try switching to tempest with 11 range thors. Have you watched recent TY streams? Would definitely recommend. Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
In defensive situations mech is harder to engage frontally, which is a given if you want the comp to have any relevance. However, the superior mobility of protoss ground armies usually makes breaking a terran player using multi proned attacks quite easy, especially on superior economy. Already commented on that. Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 22:52 JackONeill wrote:
Mech is much better versus protoss now, but it's still a mediocre playstyle compared to bio, because the cyclone is still a horribly designed unit and that late game is still nearly impossible to play (triple recall, skytoss, free static defense vs terran needing to invest a lot of population to secure expands, etc) What's triple recall? (no kidding, just wondering), static defense issues? (Didnt get that too, sorry). Skytoss. Well as i said thors alone murder tempests now. Have not tried full carrier limit, but something tells me there is a reason protoss never go carrier vs terran. All in all. I'm not saying mech is 100% unbeatable. But its MUCH more stronger now and easier to execute. Yes, the reason behind my rant is that i don't want to adjust my plays to mech playstyles, because it promotes long stalemates. The exact thing that happened to SC2 during SH era. That whole playstyle is pure cancer and should be gone. Devs should not support camping. To everyone who struggles with bio - switch race or go play c&c generals or w/e. And yes, that's my personal opinion. Consider it a design whine.
1) about switching tempests vs thors : the thing is that now you can't just start building tempests and never stop until you auto win the game. So yeah, thors have 11 range, but you've got 15 range to snipe liberators with 5-6 tempests, force thors out that are dead weight against protoss ground armies. Your design complain that you can't just start massing a single unit and automatically win the game. You're now supposed to mix it with other units depending on the opponent's composition, position yourself, perform multiproned attacks... You know, just like bio players do versus protoss?
2) static defense : shield batteries and canons. Costs very little, prevents a lot of agression. Add to that warp and superior army mobility, and it's much easier for protoss to secure bases that it is for mech. Compared to mech needing 6-9 supply/PF/sensor tower/turrets to secure a base. That means mech works on an inferior economy than protoss while mech armies aren't necessarily more cost effective than protoss ones.
3) triple recall = 1 nexus recall + 2 recall from full energy mothership. Means you basically have 3 free tries to shove a huge force much too deep into enemy defenses and just TP home with little to no fear of loosing your army. Or force a tactical jump from enemy BCs, recall home, and immediatly start harassing again with tempest range.
The best being of course to force a tradebase and TP back home.
4) " I'm not saying mech is 100% unbeatable. But its MUCH more stronger now and easier to execute. Yes, the reason behind my rant is that i don't want to adjust my plays to mech playstyles"
=> mech has historically been absolutely non-viable versus protoss depending on patches, and it may be less horrible than it used to be right now : that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that it's fully viable like it is versus Z, and by your own admission you're complaining about not being able to just mass tempests and instantly win the game.
Which doesn't mean that because you don't like it/to play against it, an entire playstyle of terran shouldn't be viable in the only matchup it's not and hasn't been for 9 years.
|
On January 31 2019 21:27 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2019 07:07 Charoisaur wrote:On January 29 2019 18:49 insitelol wrote:
Hey blizzard, if you are reading this.
What's the purpose of the thor buff?
I though everyone learned the lesson with 2hour stalemates already (Hots SH). But you keep forcing this shit every now and then, like once in 2 years or so. On and on. I'm just telling you, on the behalf of the community: Noone wants mech. Its a degenerative strat that needs to be gone forever.
I just can't wrap my head around what's so fun and innovative about camping with bazzilion of tanks/hellbats behind planetaries, sensor towers (btw how this structure is still in the game?) and turrets. And let's be honest: This is the only thing that mech is about. It promotes that exact kind of play. And you just made this absolete with thors. Basically all you need now is tank and thor (hellbat and few ghosts - optional) to dominate the entire protoss arsenal. A pure ground army! No kind of composition can do shit about just those 2 terran GROUND units (and even if they can, you need much more investment to stay at best even). When i play vs mech i feel like i'm 11 years old again playing bw on BigHunters. Is this the best gameplay you can provide with all the experience and knowledge you accumulated throughout 20 years of starcraft? For fucks sake.
And before those accomplished 4k terrans start forcing their usual nonsense, i'd want to say that i never asked for blink/robo/wg/tempest w/e "buffs" (robo wasn't even buffed, starting from third immortal you basically spend more money to continue production, but terrans count that as a "buff" anyways, i don't care). I never even asked for zealot charge buff. You can revert that but, for the sake of this game, that has just recovered from stalemate, stop buffing imbecile strats and units like thor.
If you want to shake things up i got an idea for that: remove SH, Tempest and Cyclone from the game. Revert all protoss "buffs", noone needs them anyways. Revert mines nerf, w/e. But leave mech out of this game.
Did I just read "No protoss ground unit can do shit against a Thor/tank composition"? Have you heard of the unit called the "Immortal"? Have you tried attacking into 30 tanks in siege mode with 8 thors in front of them with pure immortal army? Have you tried the same thing with terran camping behind a planetary? Want me to give you a hint what happens if terran gets 3 ghosts to support that?
I mean like it's not if protoss didn't had all the tools to hardcounter mech, maybe that's why it's never used at a pro level. Immortals, zealots, skytoss are hardcountering mech so hard.
If you whine vs mech it's nothing less but a l2p issue.
|
it''s so fucking sad to see terran players still pulling the bois in TvP but tbh i highly doubt they could ferret out how to nerf chrono boost without letting protoss die to zerglings and tanks push
|
I see no reason to increase Yamato Gun research time.
|
From bad to worse. They have no clue what they are doing!
|
Does feel pretty P favored in PvT. I'd be okay if they decreased stim research time or something like that
|
One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran.
User was warned for this post.
|
On February 03 2019 19:51 seemsgood wrote:
it''s so fucking sad to see terran players still pulling the bois in TvP but tbh i highly doubt they could ferret out how to nerf chrono boost without letting protoss die to zerglings and tanks push
This is the big issue. They've somewhat painted themselves into a corner with balancing protoss, and we've ended up at a situation where there are several things that could use changing, but doing so without massive changes to other aspects of protoss would break the game for protoss. People want chronoboost nerfed, but without it as is, there's a bunch of timings that would be insanely hard to hold. These one and two base tanks pushes are manageable right now but with an even slightly weaker economy, it could tip them into being too good like in the 1/1/1 era.
It's the same deal with protoss mass air. It sucks. It's not a fun strategy to use or play against. As it stands though, any substantial change to nerf mass air would leave protoss opened to getting rolled by mech and brood lord compositions every game since protoss ground can't effectively fight either of those compositions from the ground.
|
On February 05 2019 00:38 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2019 19:51 seemsgood wrote:
it''s so fucking sad to see terran players still pulling the bois in TvP but tbh i highly doubt they could ferret out how to nerf chrono boost without letting protoss die to zerglings and tanks push
This is the big issue. They've somewhat painted themselves into a corner with balancing protoss, and we've ended up at a situation where there are several things that could use changing, but doing so without massive changes to other aspects of protoss would break the game for protoss. People want chronoboost nerfed, but without it as is, there's a bunch of timings that would be insanely hard to hold. These one and two base tanks pushes are manageable right now but with an even slightly weaker economy, it could tip them into being too good like in the 1/1/1 era. It's the same deal with protoss mass air. It sucks. It's not a fun strategy to use or play against. As it stands though, any substantial change to nerf mass air would leave protoss opened to getting rolled by mech and brood lord compositions every game since protoss ground can't effectively fight either of those compositions from the ground.
The problem is that Blizzard tinkered A LOT with balance/design/unit interaction, but instead of stabilizing the gameplay and maintaining (at least, if not improving) quality we’re now stuck with this - sorry to call it that, but it’s exactly how I feel about it - “clusterfuck” that is modern SC2.
I had my hopes up throughout the years that one day this game would just be finally done - no more experimenting and creating new problems again and again in the process. God, I just hate LotV from a multiplayer perspective - one day you read about 1-2 potential changes, which you think could really make for a better game, when suddenly there appears a patch proposal out of somebody’s ass that brings a load of complete and utter BS changes with it and after a mere week of underwhelming feedback this hot garbage happens to go live unaltered.
At this point I always get sad they killed off the separate ladders.
|
I think only two changes are really necessary
1) Something that makes it easier to take a 3rd on time in TvP.
2) Disruptor range nerf so that they get the same range as tanks instead of outranging them.
If those two got solved I think the game is mostly in a good place.
It possible that Nydus needs a nerf as well, but I am not sure yet.
|
The bug fixes are welcome, but they didn't change a single aspect of the balance points despite the criticism? :/
|
On February 04 2019 07:46 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran.
People are still stuck in the HOTS mindset.
Immortals are not the hard counter to mech many believe. Tank/Hellbats beat mass immortals.
Thors can also fight against Carrier/Tempest in the lategame, so late game air is no longer auto-win for Protoss vs mech.
The reason mech is not viable in TvP is because mech have serious problems taking a 3rd at a reasonable time so the mech player is always behind the Protoss player in economy.
Disruptor range also make it so that ground based compositions does not work since the Disruptor outrange even the siege tank.
So if Disruptors got their range nerfed so it was the same as the siege tank and mech got some help taking a 3rd on time vs Protoss I think mech would be viable in TvP.
|
On February 05 2019 22:28 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 07:46 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran. People are still stuck in the HOTS mindset. Immortals are not the hard counter to mech many believe. Tank/Hellbats beat mass immortals. Thors can also fight against Carrier/Tempest in the lategame, so late game air is no longer auto-win for Protoss vs mech. The reason mech is not viable in TvP is because mech have serious problems taking a 3rd at a reasonable time so the mech player is always behind the Protoss player in economy. Disruptor range also make it so that ground based compositions does not work since the Disruptor outrange even the siege tank. So if Disruptors got their range nerfed so it was the same as the siege tank and mech got some help taking a 3rd on time vs Protoss I think mech would be viable in TvP.
What is the actual range for a Nova? LP doesn't say and I have honestly no idea.
For taking a 3rd: How about a PF? Again honest question. From what I'm seeing most Terrans go for a 3rd Orbital and then 4+ base maybe a PF
|
On February 05 2019 23:01 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2019 22:28 MockHamill wrote:On February 04 2019 07:46 RandomPlayer416 wrote:
One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran. People are still stuck in the HOTS mindset. Immortals are not the hard counter to mech many believe. Tank/Hellbats beat mass immortals. Thors can also fight against Carrier/Tempest in the lategame, so late game air is no longer auto-win for Protoss vs mech. The reason mech is not viable in TvP is because mech have serious problems taking a 3rd at a reasonable time so the mech player is always behind the Protoss player in economy. Disruptor range also make it so that ground based compositions does not work since the Disruptor outrange even the siege tank. So if Disruptors got their range nerfed so it was the same as the siege tank and mech got some help taking a 3rd on time vs Protoss I think mech would be viable in TvP. What is the actual range for a Nova? LP doesn't say and I have honestly no idea. For taking a 3rd: How about a PF? Again honest question. From what I'm seeing most Terrans go for a 3rd Orbital and then 4+ base maybe a PF
Nova range is 13.5-14 vs 13 tank range. It outranges the tank a tiny bit so you can shoot a nova at a tank without getting hit even if the terran has vision.
PF on third is horrible. Mules and scans are absolutely mandatory, not only for economy or revealing, but also to scan the protoss tech/army since your composition has to be very finely tuned to counter your opponent's comp.
About the reasons why mech still isn't viable vs protoss i'd say :
- early game difficulties to land production without dying (switch from 1/1/1 to 1/3/1 for instance is very hard to perform without dying to blink harass, for instance, because you can't run around chasing stalkers with marauders and don't have enough tanks to secure your base)
- early game weakness to cheeses/allins (you don't have as much bio units in bunkers which is the bread and butter of terran defense, meaning that a 2 bases allin is extremely hard to defend)
- difficulties to take a third
- inability to push out in the early game (phenixes lift everything, blink stalkers kill medivacs and pretty much butcher everything that isn't bio inside, banshees negated by shield batteries) meaning that protoss can virtually secure unlimited amounts of economy with very little risk
- general difficulty to expand that gets more and more oppressive as the game goes on (protoss can expand and land 4 canons to prevent runbies, eventually adding batteries, has warp and generally mobile forces that can answer harass : mech needs to waste population to defend expands, neither of which really prevents big DT/zealots warpins from butchering bases, and doesn't have enough mobility to deflect protoss splitting forces smartly)
- mech has to be extraordinarily careful about engages/taking fights since chargelots are overwhelming whenever your wall of hellbats isn't there or dies too quickly. More broadly, protoss ground forces have better mobility and comparable firepower to mech units : immortal/archon/storm/chargelot will force you to get liberators/siege tank comps, which is insanely immobile while your firepower isn't that much better. Sprinkle disruptors outranging thors and you get an idea of what's wrong.
=> those two last points mean that mech needs to split its forces to defend its economy, but can't afford to do so because protoss has comparable firepower with more mobility
- carriers makes a mockery of thors while tempests butcher BCs, and vikings are worthless. Since the armor nerf on the thor and the interceptor attack change (only 1 attack instead of 2), + faster carrier build time and more HP + 14 leash range vs 11 thor range = thors get massacred. The answer to that is BCs, but tempests pretty much invalidate BCs from the matchup
- recall generally speaking makes mech insanely weak to tradebases (even poorly executed ones), because if protoss gets into your production fast, kills everything while you're slowly killing a fourth, then recalls to its third, you're dead (for instance)
|
|
|
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
|
On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
Would be OP in TvZ.
I guess lowering the cyclone build time would work, it'd allow terran to get out on the map more. It has the same build time than a tank, and frankly it's an early game-only unit that gets mauled in the later stages of the game, so getting it out faster while the upgrades takes much longer would be sensible
|
On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much.
How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade)
Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots
Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ...
|
On February 06 2019 18:33 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ...
So by "all", you mean "the two i mentioned but not the other two". So half ?
And making siege faster through an upgrade is a tankivac-level abomination. Making everything faster is the reason why LOTV ended up being a nonsensical clusterf*ck in so many patches.
|
|
|
On February 06 2019 17:19 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
Would be OP in TvZ. I guess lowering the cyclone build time would work, it'd allow terran to get out on the map more. It has the same build time than a tank, and frankly it's an early game-only unit that gets mauled in the later stages of the game, so getting it out faster while the upgrades takes much longer would be sensible
Battlemech is a common TvZ strategy and would likely become oppressive with a Cyclone build time buff.
|
On February 06 2019 18:55 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 18:33 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ... So by "all", you mean "the two i mentioned but not the other two". So half ?
Your point?
On February 06 2019 18:55 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 18:33 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ... And making siege faster through an upgrade is a tankivac-level abomination. Making everything faster is the reason why LOTV ended up being a nonsensical clusterf*ck in so many patches.
Not it is not. Small difference between air and ground, isn't it?
Besides, you can tweak it to sth like only unsiege is faster, to get away from Nova or sth.
Anyway, was just an idea I came up with while reading this thread. I did not do any research into this and it's effects
|
Improving any mech units is not the solution. Mech is already strong when you get the units in the sufficiant numbers, even in TvP.
The problem is that you can not get enough units early to take expansions as fast as Protoss.
The solution should be a lower build time for some mech unit without this having too much impact on TvZ.
I think faster tank production would really help in TvP without having a too much impact in TvZ since you still would need
1) More resources if you produce the tanks faster from the same number of factories.
2) Still need the same amount of support units for the tanks.
I do not think there exists a critical timing in TvZ where having 4 tanks instead of 3 would break the game, but if there is, please tell.
|
On February 06 2019 23:26 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 18:55 JackONeill wrote:On February 06 2019 18:33 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ... So by "all", you mean "the two i mentioned but not the other two". So half ? Your point?
On February 06 2019 18:55 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 18:33 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ... So by "all", you mean "the two i mentioned but not the other two". So half ? And making siege faster through an upgrade is a tankivac-level abomination. Making everything faster is the reason why LOTV ended up being a nonsensical clusterf*ck in so many patches.
Literally what is stated right after it.
ISpeeding up everything is a terrible design decision and half the siege units don't have a siegeing up speed upgrade, making your argument completely fallacious.
|
On February 06 2019 22:10 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 17:19 JackONeill wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
Would be OP in TvZ. I guess lowering the cyclone build time would work, it'd allow terran to get out on the map more. It has the same build time than a tank, and frankly it's an early game-only unit that gets mauled in the later stages of the game, so getting it out faster while the upgrades takes much longer would be sensible Battlemech is a common TvZ strategy and would likely become oppressive with a Cyclone build time buff.
What's battle mech lacking in order to become viable in tvp?compared to classic mech they seem to be a easier option for taking fast 3rd in tvz and they would probably help in tvp imo
Stalkers ain't great vs them but protoss can out produce easily so removing its armor tag should help
|
On February 07 2019 06:35 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 22:10 Athenau wrote:On February 06 2019 17:19 JackONeill wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
Would be OP in TvZ. I guess lowering the cyclone build time would work, it'd allow terran to get out on the map more. It has the same build time than a tank, and frankly it's an early game-only unit that gets mauled in the later stages of the game, so getting it out faster while the upgrades takes much longer would be sensible Battlemech is a common TvZ strategy and would likely become oppressive with a Cyclone build time buff. What's battle mech lacking in order to become viable in tvp?compared to classic mech they seem to be a easier option for taking fast 3rd in tvz and they would probably help in tvp imo Stalkers ain't great vs them but protoss can out produce easily so removing its armor tag should help
For Zerg it's especially hard to counter battle mech at lower supplies. But Protoss has the advantage on lower supplies once charge and blink are done because those upgrades just laugh at cyclones real hard.
|
On February 07 2019 06:45 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2019 06:35 seemsgood wrote:On February 06 2019 22:10 Athenau wrote:On February 06 2019 17:19 JackONeill wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote:
Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
Would be OP in TvZ. I guess lowering the cyclone build time would work, it'd allow terran to get out on the map more. It has the same build time than a tank, and frankly it's an early game-only unit that gets mauled in the later stages of the game, so getting it out faster while the upgrades takes much longer would be sensible Battlemech is a common TvZ strategy and would likely become oppressive with a Cyclone build time buff. What's battle mech lacking in order to become viable in tvp?compared to classic mech they seem to be a easier option for taking fast 3rd in tvz and they would probably help in tvp imo Stalkers ain't great vs them but protoss can out produce easily so removing its armor tag should help For Zerg it's especially hard to counter battle mech at lower supplies. But Protoss has the advantage on lower supplies once charge and blink are done because those upgrades just laugh at cyclones real hard.
Cyclone/mine is pretty good at dealing with yolo blinks/chargelot a-moves, it's just that if the Protoss knows you're playing mech they can go ape mode and kill you before you have the production and upgrades (mag-field, drilling claws) you need.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
