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WCS Disciplinary Rulings - Jan 15 2019 - Cyan, JieShi, Rou…

Forum Index > SC2 General
73 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
January 17 2019 20:40 GMT
#61
On January 17 2019 16:10 showstealer1829 wrote:
And this is why Ladder qualification was, is and will forever be a completely stupid fucking idea

baiting out the cheaters seems like a bonus, not a drawback. how do you conclude in any way that ladder qualifiers are bad from all of this?
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Aegwynn
Profile Joined September 2015
Italy460 Posts
January 17 2019 23:02 GMT
#62
On January 18 2019 05:40 NonY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2019 16:10 showstealer1829 wrote:
And this is why Ladder qualification was, is and will forever be a completely stupid fucking idea

baiting out the cheaters seems like a bonus, not a drawback. how do you conclude in any way that ladder qualifiers are bad from all of this?


1-) Ladder isn't %100 fair for everyone
2-) You only caught few people and assume no one else did anything? How naive.
3-) Cheating definitions are pretty gray since everyone has freedom to play however they want. Everyone have right to throw their games. Unlike tournaments, for most players on the ladder there is nothing on the line.
4-) Why not simply organize an open qualifier / league instead of wasting time with this kind of bshits?

Is that enough? There is simply not a single reason favoring ladder qualifications.
Aegwynn
Profile Joined September 2015
Italy460 Posts
January 17 2019 23:15 GMT
#63
On January 18 2019 05:35 Dave4 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 17 2019 06:07 puCK wrote:
I want to be clear as these accusations should never be taken lightly.
1. There are no rules that state I have to stop playing due to no longer being able to qualify.
2. There are no rules that state that I cannot perform specific strategies as long as I play to win.

At the final hour of the qualifier there were not many people beyond players with 6300 mmr playing, since many people decided to sit back and watch the final hour unfold. Yes, it is true that it would be near impossible for me to qualify but that doesn’t mean I have to stop laddering. I queued into Astrea and played 3 games in a row, I also queued into nice over 6 games in a row that same day. However, I could’ve also queued into any other player who decided to ladder at the final hour but instead everyone wanted to sit on their points, their loss. I had Nice and other CN/TW players added to my friends list they could see that I was queuing, it is their responsibility to try and gain more points if they do not feel safe.

Immediately after the qualifier Cyan made a post which he has since deleted on Weibo stating that
“Oh, so thrilling... Puck is intentionally throwing game in the last 10 minutes, for he has no chance to qualify, and cannon-rushed Astrea for 3 games and make Jieshi become 9th in the last. But thank goodness, they past the deadline and Blz discovered this. Anyway, battling on NA server with 200 ping does not end up in vain, Jieshi and I qualified for WCS America!!!”

If you notice this post states that I cannon rushed 3 games which is a lie, I cannon rushed once, I also cannon rushed 2 games in the Ladder Heroes tournament that same day. However, this post immediately caught interest from the CN/TW audience and Blizzard demanded our replays. So, replays were given, analyzed, and were determined that no foul play was involved.

Now I am getting harassed by countless people, mostly from CN/TW, for playing games beyond the point of which I could still qualify...

Just please be careful.


For what ? He can play however he wants. Can't people just go and play ladder with a clear mind to have fun without having to explain every single game he played to the audience / authorities? This system is just sad.
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-17 23:49:10
January 17 2019 23:43 GMT
#64
On January 18 2019 08:02 Aegwynn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2019 05:40 NonY wrote:
On January 17 2019 16:10 showstealer1829 wrote:
And this is why Ladder qualification was, is and will forever be a completely stupid fucking idea

baiting out the cheaters seems like a bonus, not a drawback. how do you conclude in any way that ladder qualifiers are bad from all of this?


1-) Ladder isn't %100 fair for everyone
2-) You only caught few people and assume no one else did anything? How naive.
3-) Cheating definitions are pretty gray since everyone has freedom to play however they want. Everyone have right to throw their games. Unlike tournaments, for most players on the ladder there is nothing on the line.
4-) Why not simply organize an open qualifier / league instead of wasting time with this kind of bshits?

Is that enough? There is simply not a single reason favoring ladder qualifications.

1) tournaments aren't 100% fair either. bracket luck exists and bo3/bo5 don't always show the stronger player. nothing is "100% fair." even in mirrored games like chess someone has to play first.
2) ??? nony didn't say "no one else did anything;" you made that up.
3) yes, definitions are gray - that's why blizzard has a team of people to gather evidence and make a ruling. people manipulated the system, so they were disqualified. this is basic procedural stuff and no problem has occurred other than "cheaters are going to cheat." as for your point about people "having something on the line," people have thrown games and clearly given up in tournaments too. heard of Naniwa rage-throwing games? heard of matchfixing?
4) because variety is fun. more importantly: because SC2 needs an audience to thrive, and an audience who plays the game on ladder is a more engaged audience. seeing pros play on ladder forms a connection between playing the game and watching the game. since SC2 has existed the excitement of watching has been about emulating professional players, this entire game is a tryhard fantasy.

you are entitled to dislike this format, but your arguments are not strong.
TL+ Member
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-18 00:42:53
January 18 2019 00:37 GMT
#65
edit: nm i dont care. it's sad that these ladder qualifiers are not as good for the community as they could be. one last time: it's not because of something inherently wrong with ladder qualifiers. it's the way the players and fans are handling them. i'm not gonna spend time arguing about it anymore though
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
January 18 2019 00:56 GMT
#66
Honestly personnaly I like the idea of a ladder qualifier pretty much only because it gives a free pass to the top player and the bracket part become more fair, like for EU not having Serral-uthermal-Showtime in the bracket reduce the possible imbalance and make it more fair. The NA one was kind of fucked because some of the top player didin't try (Special-Neeb) but get those in and you have pretty much the best 8 players of NA.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
ZHANGYANG01
Profile Joined December 2018
2 Posts
January 18 2019 01:32 GMT
#67
There is no excuse that cyan and jieshi did the wrong things.Both of them are punished by chinese sc fans comment on weibo.Especially cyan after he post that puck and Astrea are cheating as well for excuse.
BUT just hope ladder qualification can be moved next time.
ydobon
Profile Joined January 2019
1 Post
Last Edited: 2019-01-21 13:02:52
January 18 2019 11:01 GMT
#68
Chinese players and their fans are quite isolated in this issue. I have been keeping an eye on a predominant SC2 forum called Neotv these days, finding that a large majority of people there just admit cyan’s fraud but iterate so-called ‘protectionism and racism’ of Blizzard for their judgement not punishing Puck and Astrea despite the ‘ fact’
Vanillatoss
Profile Joined May 2016
76 Posts
January 18 2019 11:11 GMT
#69
On January 18 2019 08:15 Aegwynn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2019 05:35 Dave4 wrote:
On January 17 2019 06:07 puCK wrote:
I want to be clear as these accusations should never be taken lightly.
1. There are no rules that state I have to stop playing due to no longer being able to qualify.
2. There are no rules that state that I cannot perform specific strategies as long as I play to win.

At the final hour of the qualifier there were not many people beyond players with 6300 mmr playing, since many people decided to sit back and watch the final hour unfold. Yes, it is true that it would be near impossible for me to qualify but that doesn’t mean I have to stop laddering. I queued into Astrea and played 3 games in a row, I also queued into nice over 6 games in a row that same day. However, I could’ve also queued into any other player who decided to ladder at the final hour but instead everyone wanted to sit on their points, their loss. I had Nice and other CN/TW players added to my friends list they could see that I was queuing, it is their responsibility to try and gain more points if they do not feel safe.

Immediately after the qualifier Cyan made a post which he has since deleted on Weibo stating that
“Oh, so thrilling... Puck is intentionally throwing game in the last 10 minutes, for he has no chance to qualify, and cannon-rushed Astrea for 3 games and make Jieshi become 9th in the last. But thank goodness, they past the deadline and Blz discovered this. Anyway, battling on NA server with 200 ping does not end up in vain, Jieshi and I qualified for WCS America!!!”

If you notice this post states that I cannon rushed 3 games which is a lie, I cannon rushed once, I also cannon rushed 2 games in the Ladder Heroes tournament that same day. However, this post immediately caught interest from the CN/TW audience and Blizzard demanded our replays. So, replays were given, analyzed, and were determined that no foul play was involved.

Now I am getting harassed by countless people, mostly from CN/TW, for playing games beyond the point of which I could still qualify...

Just please be careful.


For what ? He can play however he wants. Can't people just go and play ladder with a clear mind to have fun without having to explain every single game he played to the audience / authorities? This system is just sad.


He still can play whatever he wants and however he wants... nobody banned him from playing right?
But if you want to compete in a tournament.. you have to follow the rules. Its simple as that.

Like in football.. you can play whoever, wherever, however you want... sure! And noone will call any fauls or penalties. But only when you play with your friends. They can however bench you for whatever reason.

On the other hand, playing in tournament, you cant do that. You have to follow the set or rules cause if you dont then you are simply out
MrExplorer
Profile Joined January 2019
1 Post
Last Edited: 2019-01-18 14:07:51
January 18 2019 13:55 GMT
#70
baiting out the cheaters seems like a bonus, not a drawback. how do you conclude in any way that ladder qualifiers are bad from all of this?


Encouraging or setting traps for players to cheat is never a good thing. You don't want to promote bad behavior, particularly when it's potential rolemodels for younger generations.

This is not just catching cheaters, it's enticing it.
It looks bad for viewers, players, the tournament, the Starcraft scene, and sponsors.

No one has won from this occurance, and no one would like this to happen again.
Aegwynn
Profile Joined September 2015
Italy460 Posts
January 18 2019 17:11 GMT
#71
On January 18 2019 20:11 Vanillatoss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2019 08:15 Aegwynn wrote:
On January 18 2019 05:35 Dave4 wrote:
On January 17 2019 06:07 puCK wrote:
I want to be clear as these accusations should never be taken lightly.
1. There are no rules that state I have to stop playing due to no longer being able to qualify.
2. There are no rules that state that I cannot perform specific strategies as long as I play to win.

At the final hour of the qualifier there were not many people beyond players with 6300 mmr playing, since many people decided to sit back and watch the final hour unfold. Yes, it is true that it would be near impossible for me to qualify but that doesn’t mean I have to stop laddering. I queued into Astrea and played 3 games in a row, I also queued into nice over 6 games in a row that same day. However, I could’ve also queued into any other player who decided to ladder at the final hour but instead everyone wanted to sit on their points, their loss. I had Nice and other CN/TW players added to my friends list they could see that I was queuing, it is their responsibility to try and gain more points if they do not feel safe.

Immediately after the qualifier Cyan made a post which he has since deleted on Weibo stating that
“Oh, so thrilling... Puck is intentionally throwing game in the last 10 minutes, for he has no chance to qualify, and cannon-rushed Astrea for 3 games and make Jieshi become 9th in the last. But thank goodness, they past the deadline and Blz discovered this. Anyway, battling on NA server with 200 ping does not end up in vain, Jieshi and I qualified for WCS America!!!”

If you notice this post states that I cannon rushed 3 games which is a lie, I cannon rushed once, I also cannon rushed 2 games in the Ladder Heroes tournament that same day. However, this post immediately caught interest from the CN/TW audience and Blizzard demanded our replays. So, replays were given, analyzed, and were determined that no foul play was involved.

Now I am getting harassed by countless people, mostly from CN/TW, for playing games beyond the point of which I could still qualify...

Just please be careful.


For what ? He can play however he wants. Can't people just go and play ladder with a clear mind to have fun without having to explain every single game he played to the audience / authorities? This system is just sad.


He still can play whatever he wants and however he wants... nobody banned him from playing right?
But if you want to compete in a tournament.. you have to follow the rules. Its simple as that.

Like in football.. you can play whoever, wherever, however you want... sure! And noone will call any fauls or penalties. But only when you play with your friends. They can however bench you for whatever reason.

On the other hand, playing in tournament, you cant do that. You have to follow the set or rules cause if you dont then you are simply out


The things that you wrote are completely irrelevant and not answering any of my points.
I didn't say he got banned i said he had to waste his time posting on forums explaining how he played his personal ladder games. Does it seem convenient and logical to you?
And ladder isn't a tournament, not even close. Unlike a real tournament, two people can agree on anything between them simply because there is no spectator/referee and one of the players don't even care about the result.

lechatnoir
Profile Joined November 2016
386 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-18 17:34:15
January 18 2019 17:32 GMT
#72
Aegwynn, when people are playing ladder DURING A TIME THE LADDER RACE IS ON, have enough MMR to be in contention and the necessary skill... they fall under the rules that were quoted either in this thread or in the other one. So no, they can't play ladder any way they like on that specific day because that influences the outcome. Isn't that obvious?

And as it has been pointed out a lot already cheating in this format and in this way is *really* dumb because it is rather obvious from replays and IPs.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15928 Posts
January 18 2019 18:16 GMT
#73
On January 19 2019 02:32 lechatnoir wrote:
Aegwynn, when people are playing ladder DURING A TIME THE LADDER RACE IS ON, have enough MMR to be in contention and the necessary skill... they fall under the rules that were quoted either in this thread or in the other one. So no, they can't play ladder any way they like on that specific day because that influences the outcome. Isn't that obvious?

And as it has been pointed out a lot already cheating in this format and in this way is *really* dumb because it is rather obvious from replays and IPs.

and this is the problem with the ladder qualifier. Puck did nothing wrong and got accused because he queued games at a time the ladder qualifier went on. Is he not allowed to play the game how he wants just because some of his opponents are in contention for qualifiying?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Aegwynn
Profile Joined September 2015
Italy460 Posts
January 18 2019 18:46 GMT
#74
On January 19 2019 02:32 lechatnoir wrote:
Aegwynn, when people are playing ladder DURING A TIME THE LADDER RACE IS ON, have enough MMR to be in contention and the necessary skill... they fall under the rules that were quoted either in this thread or in the other one. So no, they can't play ladder any way they like on that specific day because that influences the outcome. Isn't that obvious?

And as it has been pointed out a lot already cheating in this format and in this way is *really* dumb because it is rather obvious from replays and IPs.


Charoisaur already responded to your first question. So no, it isn't obvious.

Secondly, i think completely the opposite, people have to be really stupid to get caught wintrading. I think its first time these chinese guys doing it and didn't think people would look their match history. It is extremely easy to wintrade with totally normal looking games. I can just tell you in advance that i will 2 base roach all-in you and thats it.
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