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On November 12 2018 03:44 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote:
Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity. Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists.
Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level. I think many people just happen to see the top level of the Korean scene to still be leaps and bounds better than most anyone else except for Serral.
And the writers aren't writing about how much the Korean scene has deteriorated because that leads to a pretty unenthusiastic and shitty hype article. "Serral triumphed over the corpse of the malnourished and frail Korean scene, putting the poor thing out of its misery once for all, to claim the title of Blizzcon World Champion" doesn't exactly get people excited for the future. I don't think anyone is happy with the Korean scene in its current state or thinks its still this fabled land of heavy-hitting juggernauts from top to bottom. Plus, as someone already mentioned before me, this article did, in fact, address Korea being in a weaker state than before, so it sounds like you didn't even read the article you're complaining about.
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On November 13 2018 06:32 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2018 03:44 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote:
Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity. Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists. Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level. I think many people just happen to see the top level of the Korean scene to still be leaps and bounds better than most anyone else except for Serral. And the writers aren't writing about how much the Korean scene has deteriorated because that leads to a pretty unenthusiastic and shitty hype article. "Serral triumphed over the corpse of the malnourished and frail Korean scene, putting the poor thing out of its misery once for all, to claim the title of Blizzcon World Champion" doesn't exactly get people excited for the future. I don't think anyone is happy with the Korean scene in its current state or thinks its still this fabled land of heavy-hitting juggernauts from top to bottom. Plus, as someone already mentioned before me, this article did, in fact, address Korea being in a weaker state than before, so it sounds like you didn't even read the article you're complaining about.
Yeah that was a bad post 
Should have deleted it tbh...
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On November 13 2018 05:25 NinjaNight wrote:
How can Serral be considered the best player in the world? Maru still had a better year than him, just unfortunately ran into his kryptonite ($o$)
“If you do not count his losses, Maru had a better year”
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On November 13 2018 07:03 Xamo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 05:25 NinjaNight wrote:
How can Serral be considered the best player in the world? Maru still had a better year than him, just unfortunately ran into his kryptonite ($o$) “If you do not count his losses, Maru had a better year”
Oh one loss for Maru makes Serral's year better than his? Sorry I wasn't aware. Did Serral win 3 GSL's this year? That's unprecedented, nothing Serral did can top that.
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It s still weird to read all these "Koreans are still better and btw they are trash that s why serral could luck out a win" #GSListhehighestskilltournamentbyfarandtheonlyonethatmatters #KoreansceneisdeadRIP
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were. Sure,there are no good rookies, but some of you shifted your opinions from Koreans are miles above the foreigners, to Korean scene just died and the foreign necrophaguos scavengers are just picking at the corpse of the once mighty beast.
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On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were.
What makes you think that?
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On November 14 2018 00:23 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were.
What makes you think that?
I watch the games, some of you should try that.
Plus if that s not good enough for you, If you say that Koreans were at top of their game one or two years ago, there is no reasonable string of events that could have led from that point to a massive skill drop, since most players are still playing, motivated by larger chunks of money and increased viewership. Everyone says they re practicing hard, they were preparing for GSL and/or Blizzcon.
If you were already thinking the koreans dropped in skill heavily a year ago or so, do link those comments.
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On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
It s still weird to read all these "Koreans are still better and btw they are trash that s why serral could luck out a win" #GSListhehighestskilltournamentbyfarandtheonlyonethatmatters #KoreansceneisdeadRIP
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were. Sure,there are no good rookies, but some of you shifted your opinions from Koreans are miles above the foreigners, to Korean scene just died and the foreign necrophaguos scavengers are just picking at the corpse of the once mighty beast.
Strongly disagree there. The number of teams and good players- the Korean scene in general- was much deeper and greater years ago. That being said, it definitely appears that Serral has officially become the top foreigner throughout the history of StarCraft 2, dethroning Stephano.
On November 13 2018 06:32 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2018 03:44 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote:
Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity. Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists. Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level.
Except for Geo.Rion lol
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On November 14 2018 01:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
It s still weird to read all these "Koreans are still better and btw they are trash that s why serral could luck out a win" #GSListhehighestskilltournamentbyfarandtheonlyonethatmatters #KoreansceneisdeadRIP
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were. Sure,there are no good rookies, but some of you shifted your opinions from Koreans are miles above the foreigners, to Korean scene just died and the foreign necrophaguos scavengers are just picking at the corpse of the once mighty beast.
Strongly disagree there. The number of teams and good players- the Korean scene in general- was much deeper and greater years ago. That being said, it definitely appears that Serral has officially become the top foreigner throughout the history of StarCraft 2, dethroning Stephano. Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 06:32 StasisField wrote:On November 12 2018 03:44 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote:
Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity. Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists. Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level. Except for Geo.Rion lol
But you're missing the point. There's a difference between "depth" and "top skill level". I certainly would not say that the very top koreans of today are "worse" than the very top koreans of 2013 and 2014, and absolutely not in any significant way.
But of course the difference is that while in 2013/2014 there were like 30-40 top koreans, nowadays there's only really ~10 top level players (numbers not meant to be exact at all).
You can definitely say that winning a GSL is "easier" nowadays than maybe it was in the past (because I would say the top top players are almost always certain to get out of the Ro32 and even ro16.).
What people like you and Charoisaur should be saying, which is undeniable, is that probably the Korean scene would be more talented if the infrastructure of 2013-2015 was still around. Teamhouses and the abundance of top players would make that pretty much unavoidable. But that is a completely different argument than that korean players are worse . In my eyes, it's just there's not the rapid upward rise that might have been otherwise.
If you agree to this, you should also say that none of this really applies to Serral's blizzcon win anyway, because he went through the top two zergs and the top protoss to get his crown.
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On November 14 2018 01:24 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2018 01:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
It s still weird to read all these "Koreans are still better and btw they are trash that s why serral could luck out a win" #GSListhehighestskilltournamentbyfarandtheonlyonethatmatters #KoreansceneisdeadRIP
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were. Sure,there are no good rookies, but some of you shifted your opinions from Koreans are miles above the foreigners, to Korean scene just died and the foreign necrophaguos scavengers are just picking at the corpse of the once mighty beast.
Strongly disagree there. The number of teams and good players- the Korean scene in general- was much deeper and greater years ago. That being said, it definitely appears that Serral has officially become the top foreigner throughout the history of StarCraft 2, dethroning Stephano. On November 13 2018 06:32 StasisField wrote:On November 12 2018 03:44 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote:
Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity. Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists. Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level. Except for Geo.Rion lol But you're missing the point. There's a difference between "depth" and "top skill level". I certainly would not say that the very top koreans of today are "worse" than the very top koreans of 2013 and 2014, and absolutely not in any significant way. But of course the difference is that while in 2013/2014 there were like 30-40 top koreans, nowadays there's only really ~10 top level players (numbers not meant to be exact at all). You can definitely say that winning a GSL is "easier" nowadays than maybe it was in the past (because I would say the top top players are almost always certain to get out of the Ro32 and even ro16.). What people like you and Charoisaur should be saying, which is undeniable, is that probably the Korean scene would be more talented if the infrastructure of 2013-2015 was still around. Teamhouses and the abundance of top players would make that pretty much unavoidable. But that is a completely different argument than that korean players are worse . In my eyes, it's just there's not the rapid upward rise that might have been otherwise. If you agree to this, you should also say that none of this really applies to Serral's blizzcon win anyway, because he went through the top two zergs and the top protoss to get his crown.
I agree with you that team houses and an abundance of top players make the scene more competitive, which is why I don't think the scene is as competitive now as it used to be. I also think that those things made players better (by being able to practice with more people, more consistently), so with those things gone (or, at least, greatly reduced), I feel like it logically follows that the players now don't have as many resources as they used to. This could definitely mean that either the players who are left probably aren't as good as they could have been if we still had the infrastructure, and/or it could mean- as you said- that the upper echelon of players nowadays is only ~10, as opposed to ~30-40.
I'm definitely not saying that Serral didn't deserve his win (or the credit he's earned).
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On November 14 2018 00:44 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2018 00:23 Charoisaur wrote:On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were.
What makes you think that? I watch the games, some of you should try that. Plus if that s not good enough for you, If you say that Koreans were at top of their game one or two years ago, there is no reasonable string of events that could have led from that point to a massive skill drop, since most players are still playing, motivated by larger chunks of money and increased viewership. Everyone says they re practicing hard, they were preparing for GSL and/or Blizzcon. If you were already thinking the koreans dropped in skill heavily a year ago or so, do link those comments.
You're ignoring the age factor. Players don't stay at their peak skill level forever. Innovation himself said he feels that he's getting slower.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer.
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This emperor has clothes 
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On November 14 2018 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:
[...]
I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer.
that's a very interesting observation actually.
I'm curious how exactly mechanics of aging players deteriorate over time. Do you think it can be measured by apm?
In other fields (say software development for example) less fluid intelligence and slower speed are compensated with more experience. This surely holds in sc2 as well, but in sc2 we might be able to better separate the two components.
if we simplify "skill = mechanics + experience (knowledge)", then the fact players get worse with age means the gain in experience cannot make up for the loss in mechanics.
What are your thoughts?
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On November 14 2018 02:36 imp42 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2018 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:
[...]
I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer. that's a very interesting observation actually. I'm curious how exactly mechanics of aging players deteriorate over time. Do you think it can be measured by apm? In other fields (say software development for example) less fluid intelligence and slower speed are compensated with more experience. This surely holds in sc2 as well, but in sc2 we might be able to better separate the two components. if we simplify "skill = mechanics + experience (knowledge)", then the fact players get worse with age means the gain in experience cannot make up for the loss in mechanics. What are your thoughts?
Probably it's a mix of apm, reaction time and accuracy though I don't know for sure. A pro could surely answer this better.
To a certain point the disadvantage can surely be overcome with experience, you can even see this in how pros change their playstyle over time. Where Zest just bullied everyone in macro games a few years ago he has now become a player who wins with very sharp timings and tricks. 2013 Inno just did the same build every game and was wildly succesful with it and over time he was forced to mix up his play much more.
The younger player will always be at an advantage though and at a certain point it can't be overcome anymore.
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On November 14 2018 03:23 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2018 02:36 imp42 wrote:On November 14 2018 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:
[...]
I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer. that's a very interesting observation actually. I'm curious how exactly mechanics of aging players deteriorate over time. Do you think it can be measured by apm? In other fields (say software development for example) less fluid intelligence and slower speed are compensated with more experience. This surely holds in sc2 as well, but in sc2 we might be able to better separate the two components. if we simplify "skill = mechanics + experience (knowledge)", then the fact players get worse with age means the gain in experience cannot make up for the loss in mechanics. What are your thoughts? Probably it's a mix of apm, reaction time and accuracy though I don't know for sure. A pro could surely answer this better. To a certain point the disadvantage can surely be overcome with experience, you can even see this in how pros change their playstyle over time. Where Zest just bullied everyone in macro games a few years ago he has now become a player who wins with very sharp timings and tricks. 2013 Inno just did the same build every game and was wildly succesful with it and over time he was forced to mix up his play much more. The younger player will always be at an advantage though and at a certain point it can't be overcome anymore.
Heh. Just watch MVP return and win another GSL just to prove you wrong. He'll probably do it with his wrists in a cast, because they are so fucked.
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On November 14 2018 01:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote:
It s still weird to read all these "Koreans are still better and btw they are trash that s why serral could luck out a win" #GSListhehighestskilltournamentbyfarandtheonlyonethatmatters #KoreansceneisdeadRIP
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were. Sure,there are no good rookies, but some of you shifted your opinions from Koreans are miles above the foreigners, to Korean scene just died and the foreign necrophaguos scavengers are just picking at the corpse of the once mighty beast.
Strongly disagree there. The number of teams and good players- the Korean scene in general- was much deeper and greater years ago. That being said, it definitely appears that Serral has officially become the top foreigner throughout the history of StarCraft 2, dethroning Stephano. Show nested quote +On November 13 2018 06:32 StasisField wrote:On November 12 2018 03:44 Charoisaur wrote:On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote:
Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity. Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists. Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level. Except for Geo.Rion lol
"lol"
Well, maybe learn to read . Im talking about the top players. Yes, the middle of the road Korean pro isnt worth as much anymore, and yes there s certainly not much in way of reinforcement, and per total there are a lot less pro players. That being said the top players are playing at a very high skill level.
And if you could read, you d know, i wrote this phenomenon isnt new. So if you were saying how Korean scene has declined 1-2 year ago, and it s only a matter of time foreigners take over, kudos to you. But if someone was spouting until recently how Koreans are so much better, and now they starting to whine how the skill level has declined, and that s the only reason Serral could win, then you have some issues to work out
How some of you people can live your everyday lives despite having such a strong cognitive dissonance it s truly amazing.
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Pandain basically got it right, there's less depth in GSL, but the top10 Koreans are the strongest they have ever been.
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On November 14 2018 08:18 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Pandain basically got it right, there's less depth in GSL, but the top10 Koreans are the strongest they have ever been.
That makes sense because top players that emerged during a phase where there was a lot of competition and a large player base don't suddenly become bad when the scene is past its peak (maybe marginally due to less practice partner choices available). It's the new blood that suffers.
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One important point I'd like mentioned more often amidst all gloom is : probability-adjusted rewards to Korean players, per tournament, are at an all-time high.
- prizepools higher or through the roof (Blizzcon anyone ?) & more concentrated
- GSL de facto a top16 (realistically, top12 + 4for) rather than top32 tournament
- fixed part of compensation -team salaries- on average lower, nil for some
- higher barriers to entry due to planned obsolescence of SC2 skill - the game will be 10y old fairly soon, sadly...
If you view players as rational agents that invest their time, heart and motivation into prep, then these incentives should mean the strong get stronger (the scene gets more and more skewed, much like in economics where the rich tend to get richer) - this is what we're seeing in top12 Kor, as statistically, good luck to anyone taking on Maru, Stats, or Dark.
This is significant because foreigners aren't competing against the 'average' Korean - that notion doesn't really exist anymore.
That effect more than makes up for the very valid point of them aging IMHO. I'm not looking fwd to the unavoidable wave of military retirements... but until then, we can enjoy fantastic gameplay for a while longer.
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On November 14 2018 03:23 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2018 02:36 imp42 wrote:On November 14 2018 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:
[...]
I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer. that's a very interesting observation actually. I'm curious how exactly mechanics of aging players deteriorate over time. Do you think it can be measured by apm? In other fields (say software development for example) less fluid intelligence and slower speed are compensated with more experience. This surely holds in sc2 as well, but in sc2 we might be able to better separate the two components. if we simplify "skill = mechanics + experience (knowledge)", then the fact players get worse with age means the gain in experience cannot make up for the loss in mechanics. What are your thoughts? Probably it's a mix of apm, reaction time and accuracy though I don't know for sure. A pro could surely answer this better. To a certain point the disadvantage can surely be overcome with experience, you can even see this in how pros change their playstyle over time. Where Zest just bullied everyone in macro games a few years ago he has now become a player who wins with very sharp timings and tricks. 2013 Inno just did the same build every game and was wildly succesful with it and over time he was forced to mix up his play much more. The younger player will always be at an advantage though and at a certain point it can't be overcome anymore.
I would also count in the boldness of youth in comparison to the more mature way of playing defensive. Not sure how to explain this properly. I think it was Heromarine vs SoS. Heromarine was ahead most of the game but didn't go for a ending move. Most youngsters would just gone and try to end, but Heromarine wasn't decisive enough or whatever and overthought the situation. Does that make sense?
EDIT: Maru vs Ty in GSL S3 finals game 5 or sth. Maru was kinda behind, but just saying "fuck it" im going in.
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EPT
