StarCraft II is eight years old but its roots stretch back two decades deep. Released in 1998, the original StarCraft was created in Blizzard's American offices. However, it only truly realized its greatness in its adopted homeland of South Korea whereas of 2016, 4 million of the 9 million copies of StarCraft sold world wide were purchased. It only took a year for what would one day become OnGameNet to organize the Tooniverse Progamer Korea Open, the inaugural edition of what would become the first iconic tournament series in Esports history.
The birth of professional Brood War in Korea was a seminal moment in the evolution of Esports as a competitive medium. StarCraft was wildly successful around the world, but only South Korea developed an obsession with it. By 2000, the Korean playerbase already outnumbered the rest of the world 18 to 1. StarCraft was indispensable in inducing the rise of broadband connections in Korea in the public and private spheres. Large corporations (particularly ones involved in telecommunication, natch) established teams and supported players; the formation of KeSPA and then Proleague in 2003 created a system that developed and then paid professional gamers. For the first time you could sit down and watch a video game on a major television network. An entire generation of Korean teens grew up being more familiar with the best Brood War progamers than the top stars in traditional sports. Simply put, Korea revolutionized the perception of video games as a part of the global zeitgeist.
That didn’t stop a few foreigners from trying to make a go of it in Korea. During the nascent stages of the game they matched their counterparts in skill. Canadian Protoss Grrrr was one of the first foreigners to ply their trade in Seoul. He won a number of smaller events in 1999, but really broke out in the second ever OSL where he took down H.O.T-Forever 3-2 in the finals. Hailing from Norway, Slayer won the second season of KBK Master later that year, but it was the only noteworthy result for a foreigner in Korea until the French Terran ElkY managed to reach the Round of 4 in the 2002 SKY OSL—only to be swept in the semifinals and 3rd place match by BoxeR and YellOw respectively.
The rest of the community was never given a chance to integrate with the larger Korean scene. Instead of a free exchange of information they were forced to work with scraps, relying mostly on pieces of information they managed to scrounge from the limited available coverage of Korean events. World Cyber Games was an annual chance for foreigners to steal a win off their Koreans overlords. But Korea won over a decade worth of gold medals in StarCraft. No foreigner ever got close to duplicating Grrrr’s Starleague feat either.
WCG 2003 was Grrr…’s last notable finish (he took third place). Alongside the German FiSheYe, this marked the apex of European/American showings at the tournament.
StarCraft II represented a new beginning for the international community. Brood War had been a niche game in the West, but StarCraft II opened the gates to an entirely new generation of international gamers. It was an enormously popular hit: 1.5 million people purchased the game within two days of release, a large portion of them from North America and Europe. Within a month of release MLG had already held the first edition of the MLG Pro Circuit in Raleigh, North Carolina. Dreamhack hosted their first StarCraft II event in Jönköping, Sweden a few months later. The game wasn't even a year old, but there were already more opportunities for foreigners to play professionally than there had ever been in Brood War.
Foreigners performed well in the initial editions of these events, but as Koreans began to attend their fortunes took a turn for the worse. By the time they started heading west in 2011, Koreans already had a stranglehold on the game. Amateurs and ex-Brood War pros, making good use of their decade-long head start, alike dictated how we interpreted and played the game at a meteoric rate. A few foreigners resisted, most notably Jinro and NaNiwa who braved the trip to Seoul to participate in the Global StarCraft II League. Jinro managed a pair of Roundof 4 finishes, a feat that wasn’t duplicated until Neeb reached the semifinals seven years later. Naniwa not only reached the quarterfinals of Code S on multipleoccasions, he was a frequent finalist of numerousweekenders.
As the years went on IEM and IPL were increasingly overrun with both the cream of the crop and mid-tier pros looking for their breakout moment; during 2012-2014 it was not uncommon to see Koreans exclusively claim all quarterfinal spots in a weekend tournament. The reversal of fortune is startling on paper. Naniwa won the fourth ever MLG event held in April 2011, but in the sixteen that followed HuK was the only foreigner to take top honors (MLG Orlando in 2011). Foreigners managed to win five of the ten Dreamhacks held in November 2010-2012 due to minimal Korean attendance, but from 2013 to 2015 they went 0-16. Blizzard’s attempt to create a shared competitive environment between the two regions had fallen flat on its face. It appeared as if Korea was destined to reign until time unseen.
It took six years of constant drubbings and the institution of a region-locked WCS system for Neeb to finally win the 2016 KeSPA Cup on Korean soil (it still couldn’t stop ByuN from winning the WCS Global Finals later that year). The dissolution of KeSPA teams in late 2016 was a demoralizing blow, possibly a coup de grâce in more fraught circumstances, but the remaining Korean pros stalwartly adapted to their new environment. They returned to their winning ways in 2017, sweeping all the major international events. Despite the withdrawal of KeSPA, the utter lack of new talent, and the combination of retirements and resurgence of the Brood War scene, the momentum Korea had built up over decades was still overwhelming. Even on the tail end of the avalanche, foreigners were being buried.
The Korean scene remains, at the top level, far stronger than the foreign one. Players like Dark, TY or soO haven't won a Korean event in years (or ever in TY’s case), but they regularly dispatch even the strongest foreigners when they cross paths. Still, just because the vast majority of foreigners are woefully overmatched, doesn't mean one of them can't catch fire and win a tournament. Neeb proved that two years ago and Scarlett drove the point home at IEM PyeongChang this spring. A sea change was coming even if only the faintest tremors were perceptible. While all eyes were glued to Korea and Maru’s second consecutive Code S title, a storm was brewing on the WCS Circuit. The typhoon struck Korean soil on August 2nd with a fury unseen in 20 years. That was the day Serral arrived. By the time the sun rose two days later he had challenged everything we thought we knew about StarCraft II.
In one of the most shocking upsets in StarCraft history, Scarlett defeated accoladed IEM champion sOs 4-1 to win PyeongChang.
It was a conquest more than three years in the making. Ever since Serral recorded his first victory against an elite Korean—Rain in Fragbite Masters 2015 Season 4—he was the foreign scene’s worst kept secret. Everyone with their ear to the ground knew he was a virtuoso: making WCS Premier at sixteen tends to have that effect. He made the quarterfinals of a premier event for the first time at Dreamhack Leipzig in 2016. He one upped himself in 2017, reaching the Round of 8 on four occasions—even daring to make a finals appearance at WCS Jönköping. Serral made the switch to full time professional gamer that March, but it wasn’t until 2018 that he finally realized the greatness within him.
A disappointing showing at the 2017 WCS Global Finals relegated Serral to the role of dark horse for WCS Leipzig, the first Circuit stop of 2018, whereas Neeb, Elazer, ShoWTimE and SpeCial were perceived as serious contenders. In an unlikely twist, Serral tore through the tournament in convincing fashion, losing four games en route to the title. His first premier tournament victory was a real milestone in his career, one unfortunately shrouded by ShoWTimE’s reemergence and Neeb’s inability to win his fourth straight WCS Circuit event. He was subsequently outshone by other players at IEM PyeongChang and the IEM World Championship. His victory over Classic in the third place match of WESG 2017 was a small but significant shifting of the tide in retrospect. No one could have guessed that Maru’s 4-3 victory over Dark in the WESG finals marked the last time Serral wasn’t the defining storyline of an event he attended.
Winning WCS Austin, Valencia and Montreal back-to-back made Serral the foreign scene’s hottest ticket. The excitement was palpable and justified. He didn’t just balance injecting, creep spread and unit production as well as soO ever had, his infallible macro summoned visions of yesteryear Flash. Serral’s unit control was as precise as vaunted Protosses like PartinG or Terrans like Maru. His flawless scouting meant he knew his opponent’s strategy as well as they did, allowing him to sculpt the perfect composition for every situation. Serral employed hydralisks, ravagers, swarm hosts, vipers and every other unit in the Zerg arsenal whenever appropriate.
He was decisive as any player to have played the game, always making the right move in places his kin would have gone full foreigner. His incredible sense for striking where the opponent was weakest was more reminiscent of Life. Be it overlord drops, multi-pronged attacks or zergling runbys, Serral’s opponents were always playing from behind. While they were running around like chickens with their heads cut off the Ence Zerg was transitioning into an unstoppable army. Attuning one’s sense of strategy to his weaknesses was an exercise in futility. All-ins landed with a thud. Outside of precise timing attacks macro games were a death sentence; Serral was a master at accumulating advantages off the most minor choices. Was there anything the Finnish phenom couldn’t do?
This face would make anyone quake in terror.
And so, more than three years after beating Rain in a largely meaningless event, Serral traveled to Korea for GSL vs. the World, the Signature Series film crew trailing in his wake. Whether they were betting on something special happening or simply following a predetermined schedule, they couldn’t have chosen a better weekend to chronicle his journey.
Naysayers predicted he would exit in the Round of 8, but Serral had other ideas. He only dropped one game on the way to the finals, with wins over INnoVation and Dark appearing so effortless GSL vs. the World looked more like an OSC Weekly event than a star-studded Korean competition. Despite his roaring start Serral still entered the finals as an underdog versus Stats, a position seemingly validated when he fell behind 2-0 to a sharp all-in and cannon rush. Suddenly Serral found himself in a deep hole against one of the most decorated players since the release of Legacy of the Void.
It would have been a simple thing to crumble. To give in and slink back to his kingdom overseas. The thing is Serral doesn’t crumble. He doesn’t back away from a challenge or lose his composure when the pressure is excruciating. Winning is what he excels at, regardless of the odds. It took five more games for him to lift the trophy, but as his queens and roaches marched across Dreamcatcher and battered away the last of Stats’ defenses, one thing was abundantly clear: Serral was really, really good.
Fresh off the triumph of becoming the first foreign GSL champion, Serral shifted his attention to new aspirations: winning an unprecedented fourth consecutive WCS Circuit title. Montreal seemed to be money in the bank considering his form, yet the toll of cascading success already began to show. The subtle pressure of matching insane expectations and deflecting the schemes of potential usurpers had culminated in fatigue. Serral looked unsettlingly mortal in the Montreal bracket stage. He was imperfect, error-prone and liable to dropping games against inferior competition. He even fell behind Reynor—an excellent player but no Stats— by a 2-3 score in the finals. But similar to GSL vs. the World Serral persevered. He played one of the best games of the year on Cerulean Falls, recovering from an early deficit by outplaying the Italian Zerg in every facet onwards. From there it was a simple matter to close out the series with a queen/roach nydus that punched through Reynor’s mutalisk-oriented build.
It was the first WCS Circuit title where Serral had been sorely tested. Still, he’d conquered adversity for the second straight tournament to emerge as the champion. With the WCS Global Finals less than two months away Serral represented the best the WCS Circuit had to offer. And he was no longer playing the upstart. He was a legitimate threat to win the entire event and upset Korea’s twelve year stranglehold on Blizzard's various world championship events.
Serral’s status as one of the tournament’s favorites put a target on his back. Korean pros had long since recognized his talent, but former victims like Dark and Stats expressed confidence in their ability to claim revenge in a rematch. Meanwhile an army of WCS fans mobilized behind Serral, the best chance for a foreigner to win BlizzCon in the history of the game. Others remained skeptical and sought to dampen what they saw as gratuitous hype. They stubbornly clung to their belief that Serral had yet to prove himself. They refused to see the brilliance, flair and efficiency in Serral’s play. Honestly, who could blame them? The history of foreign StarCraft II is one of unreserved hope followed by disillusionment. A veritable list of promising candidates have tried and failed to topple the Korean juggernaut. IdrA, Jinro, HuK, Stephano, Naniwa, Scarlett, the list goes on and on.
Serral’s career offered evidence he was the exception to the trend. It has been a story of constant improvement by traditional and nontraditional means. Sure, he grinded countless hours on the ladder like everyone else, but he notably transcended the limitations of his scene. When the European server presented a paucity of elite Terrans Serral played the games out in his mind: he theorycrafted optimal builds, visualized the best way to rotate and split his army in order to harass, defend and attack depending on the situation. People often claim that TY, or perhaps sOs, is the smartest individual based on his wide variety of builds and cleverness in choosing when and how to execute them. But it’s clear at this point that Serral’s understanding and aptitude for the game exceeds them.
Serral’s approach to StarCraft II is a fascinating blend of the entrepreneurial spirit from Wings of Liberty and the discipline of the KeSPA Koreans. He is constantly evaluating the game in new, original ways, pioneering solutions to circumstances others can't decipher. At the same time he harkens back to the KeSPA emigrants who refined the game to a previously unheard-of level in Heart of the Swarm. His ability to optimize builds, while at the same time making them pliable, has created strategies that can dictate the pace of a game and accurately respond to any disruption. It’s a mixture we’ve never seen in a single player before, one which has been instrumental in Serral’s ascension.
Serral’s match versus Maru showcased how helpless he could make the best players look. The Korean Terran was endlessly rebuffed or put on the back foot. He never reached a position where he could exploit his intimidating offense.
The opening weekend of the WCS Global Finals was an eye opener. sOs admitted to having prepared exclusively for Serral, but his targeted planning was all for naught. His predictable cannon rush on Lost and Found and uninspired play on Blueshift demonstrated the wide gulf between their abilities. Next Zest tried his hand at derailing Serral, but he was thoroughly outclassed in a 17 minute macro game on Acid Plant before being caught completely off guard by a cleverly disguised timing on Blueshift. The tournament had just begun yet Serral had already made two of the best Korean Protoss look like rank amateurs. It was a convincing debut if there ever was one, a slaughter that further confirmed Serral’s position among the favorites to win it all. We had to wait a week for BlizzCon proper to see the tournament conclude, but you couldn’t fight the feeling as the sun rose on the second of November that magic was in the air.
To say the day started off with a surprise would be a complete understatement. Maru and Serral had only played four offline games against each other all year, but their dominance in their respective regions saw them cast as mythical rivals by the community, casters, even Blizzard. The entire community had been dreaming of a grand final between Maru and Serral for months on end, but it took three swift games for sOs to shatter those hopes. While everyone else’s spirit sank, Serral remained unfazed. In an interview conducted in the days leading up to BlizzCon, Serral expressed his confidence against Korean Zergs due to their reluctance to go into the late game. He was convinced if he managed to amass ten lurkers there wasn’t a chance in the world he’d lose to someone like Dark. Those words proved to be prophetic. When the time came to take the stage he dominated the newly minted Gosu Crew Zerg. He did the same to Rogue in the semifinals, a pair of victories as impressive as any we’ve seen in recent years. Dark and Rogue didn’t play poorly. In fact it’s arguable they personally demonstrated their best gameplay all year.
Dark was at his tenacious apex, incisive and clever. He correctly identified Serral’s muta/ling style on Lost and Found and perfectly countered it with roach/corruptor. The tech advantage would have proved checkmate against any other Zerg on the planet...except Serral. Dark maintained his exceptional level of play in games two and three despite being behind for most of them. Despite his best efforts there was a consistent difference of inches between the two. Serral’s harassment was more effective; he teched faster and sculpted more lethal compositions; his production was unceasing. He ran circles around Dark for three straight games until the 2016 BlizzCon runner up had no choice but to concede.
Rogue by contrast put up a more valiant fight. The Jin Air Zerg looked excellent in game one. He even held a lead for a time only for Serral to snatch it away with superior engagements and perpetual harassment. There was a brief interruption as Rogue briskly evened the series with ling/bane aggression, but Serral wasn’t shaken in the slightest. The next two games were eerily reminiscent of the three he’d played earlier against Dark, particularly game four on Lost and Found. Strategically Rogue made all the right moves as the game dragged into the later stages: he harried Serral with constant harassment while maintaining a one base advantage. His opponent was not fazed by his precarious position. Serral said after the game he was confident he was taking better trades and that Rogue would eventually run out of steam, a prescient in-game call. Rogue eventually depleted his gas count, leaving him with no choice but to fight 3/3 hydralisks and lurkers with 0/3 zerglings. The result of those fights was as predictable as that of the match: 3-1 Serral and a spot in the finals.
Serral and Rogue face off in one of the best games of the WCS Global Finals
Serral had earned a spot in the most important match of his career against Stats, a foe he had bested just a scant few months earlier. Their meeting in GSL vs. the World was a close series: the tense back and forth was only resolved in game seven when Serral recognized and greedily leapt upon a narrow timing that caught Stats mid-transition. Stats and Serral were neck and neck then, both deserving of the title of champion. It wasn’t anything like that this time around. Serral momentarily faltered after taking a 3-0 lead, but as he expertly controlled the later stages of game six on Para Site, hampering Stats’ economy while developing the perfect upgraded army, there was no doubt left in anyone’s mind. Unlike that August night when the pair fought to the bitter end, Stats no longer had a claim for the title. There was only one man who could possibly could be called the best player in the world. As his corruptors killed off the last of Stats’ haggard carrier fleet, the better player was obvious to all. Now Serral was the official WCS World Champion.
While Serral certainly isn’t a bonjwa, the GOAT, or even the most decorated player to have attended the 2018 WCS Global Finals, that doesn’t mean he isn’t incredible in his own right. At this point there’s no question he’s playing at a level unmatched by any foreigner in the history of StarCraft II. In fact, it’s quite possible his current level of play sets the benchmark for future participants. His performance over the course of the year, particularly at the WCS Global Finals, easily rivals that of Zest from 2016 GSL Season 1, Dear’s incendiary form at the end of 2013 or INnoVation’s peak earlier that year. The title of world champion catapults him to the top of the greatest foreigner list, above legends like Stephano and Naniwa, as well as Serral’s contemporary Neeb. By that feat alone he will forever hold a unique place in history.
Serral’s victory was the realization of a dream whose seeds were first planted when Blizzard released StarCraft II. Back then the goal wasn’t to unseat the Koreans from their throne. It was merely to foster the type of international competition unseen in Brood War. The 2018 BlizzCon final was the most important match of Serral’s career, but in future recollections it may stand out as one of the most important matches in StarCraft II history. Don’t be mistaken, Koreans still hold the advantage when it comes to top players. Yet if Blizzard repeals region lock in the upcoming WCS announcement, we won’t see a repeat of the game’s early days where second and third tier Koreans annihilated the best Europe and North America had to offer. The foreign scene has been strengthened to the point that only the best in Korea can reliably beat players like Neeb, SpeCial and ShoWTimE. No one can consider the Koreans runaway favorites to win every global event, not while Serral is around. For the first time in two decades, the power dynamic between the two regions has decisively shifted. A promising teen only a few years ago, Serral’s persistence, ingenuity and seemingly unending talent have carried him to the very top of the scene. In doing so, he has rewritten the shibboleths of the game.
For the first time in the game’s history, a foreigner is the measuring stick by which all professional players will be evaluated.
Back in 1999 a revolution transformed a RTS game into the world’s first esport. Nearly 20 years later we have another seismic movement on our hands. Serral is a product years in the making. The successes and failures of every foreigner who has played professionally since StarCraft’s inception have led up to his victory at BlizzCon. Historians will look back at this moment as the one in which Korea’s reign was finally shattered. When everything we thought we knew went up in smoke. Serral is only one man, but his success will inspire so many others. Things won't go back to the old ways. Not while Serral is around.
I must say that last game versus Rogue felt super tense, but you get the feeling in the interview afterwards that it was just typical tuesday for Serral.
great story about a great player. my proposition for further growth: starcraft players need to become a brand that can be advertised outside of the sc2 community. how much money do sponsors want to invest in awkward personalities that "outsiders" wont be attracted to? thats something that IdrA, NaNiwa and especially Stephano do better than todays top foreigners. The engagement they get for their sponsors products is higher.
On November 08 2018 20:44 Fr1edobert wrote: great story about a great player. my proposition for further growth: starcraft players need to become a brand that can be advertised outside of the sc2 community. how much money do sponsors want to invest in awkward personalities that "outsiders" wont be attracted to? thats something that IdrA, NaNiwa and especially Stephano do better than todays top foreigners. The engagement they get for their sponsors products is higher.
Honestly, charisma is something some people have and others don't.
Serral seems like a nice guy, but he is shy, both on stage and in front of a camera. Stephano was the opposite: a very charismatic kid who revelled in being the center of attention. Pair that with a bit of a rivalry with MC, another very charismatic figure, and it was going to give some great time in the spotlight for him, and thus his sponsors. This sort of thing happens in all sports, though. Compare Ronaldo and Messi, probably the two greatest players ever in football. Yet Ronaldo is outgoing, charismatic and always ready for interviews, whereas Messi is almost a recluse in comparison.
As to why you include Naniwa, I don't know. If there's one player who comes across worse on camera than Serral, it's Naniwa. Idra's rage was a thing of legend, naniwa's just came off as petty. A far better example for someone who brought their sponsor's valuable time in the spotlight would be HuK.
Regarding the writeup: excellent work! Captured both the tournament and its significance to a T.
On November 08 2018 22:42 Musicus wrote: Such a good read, thank you!
Serral's year isn't over. HSC is next.
Indeed, HSC is next. It's going to be the first tournament (of many, probably) where Serral's ascendance won't be the primary storyline, but instead the hunt after him. He's got a big, fat target on his back now. It's going to be fun watching him defend his new status, and watching who might emerge as a challenger. We've got a great time ahead of us!
Fantastic article. My dad has expressed some interest this year in SC2 but doesn't really know the history, and I'm definitely going to send him this article. Big props on this one, mizenhauer.
Amazing article; well-written. and with just the right amount of big words in order to make it hype, without being overly dramatic. I gotta hand it to you, dear TL-Writers, a Nobel-prize would be in order for the level of writing you guys have kept up this year.
well written article Serral is really playing on a different level but i cant shake off the feeling that blizzard killed a lot of the korean scene and that its time to lift the regionlock on them.
On November 08 2018 20:08 jy_9876543210 wrote: The only thing missing for this year is a BO7 of Serral vs Maru. There was ASL vs KSL, could there also be a GSL vs WCS? Or let it remain a mystery...
If only someone could fly Maru to HSC, that would be so amazing, then we can have our BO7.
On November 08 2018 20:08 jy_9876543210 wrote: The only thing missing for this year is a BO7 of Serral vs Maru. There was ASL vs KSL, could there also be a GSL vs WCS? Or let it remain a mystery...
If only someone could fly Maru to HSC, that would be so amazing, then we can have our BO7.
Apparently Take invited him and he didn't want to, Maru isn't too big on travel I think.
On November 08 2018 20:08 jy_9876543210 wrote: The only thing missing for this year is a BO7 of Serral vs Maru. There was ASL vs KSL, could there also be a GSL vs WCS? Or let it remain a mystery...
If only someone could fly Maru to HSC, that would be so amazing, then we can have our BO7.
Apparently Take invited him and he didn't want to, Maru isn't too big on travel I think.
Imagine a Jin Air player who don't want to travel...
On November 08 2018 22:42 Musicus wrote: Such a good read, thank you!
Serral's year isn't over. HSC is next.
Indeed, HSC is next. It's going to be the first tournament (of many, probably) where Serral's ascendance won't be the primary storyline, but instead the hunt after him. He's got a big, fat target on his back now. It's going to be fun watching him defend his new status, and watching who might emerge as a challenger. We've got a great time ahead of us!
Great article! It gave me goosebumps at times. On the topic of the upcoming HSC though: don't be too surprised if Serral doesn't win it. They're playing on the new patch if I recall correctly and many of the players going have had much more time to work out builds and timings than Serral. If Serral loses at HSC, I wouldn't personally consider him "dethroned" or anything like that, considering the lack of practice on the new patch and the different atmosphere at HSC as a whole. Still, it will be exciting to see how quickly he learns to play on the new patch and see what he does with it
I definitely think the B word is in contention though. Almost a full year of perfection... 6 premier titles in 9 months, I think that is a record for sure?
In any case clearly the best foreigner by a long margin - long live Serrals reign.
While Serral certainly isn’t a bonjwa, the GOAT, or even the most decorated player to have attended the 2018 WCS Global Finals, that doesn’t mean he isn’t incredible in his own right.
He'll do it all again next year, and then there'll be no arguing about his pedigree!
Nicely written. A good recap of the history of foreign SC2.
Thanks for taking your time on this. I don't think the significance of the moment would have been captured nearly as well without the history lesson. I don't have any more expectations from Serral - he's already done the impossible and cemented an almost unbeatable legacy. He could bomb out of this next HSC and all future tournaments and I still don't think anyone could beat his one - year span of achievements. He's got nothing left to prove.
Good article. Maybe it's mostly to cover the winners and such but one thing that I do miss is the zerg strats thats been different in the EU scene for quite a while.
EU zergs were never afraid of the late game.
It was on EU that the brood lord rush showed up, albeit partly because of less agressive terrans and protoss than the top KR scene. It took a good amount of time until the KR pro players started to go for earlier infestor/BL play.
Snute basically invented how to play swarm hosts vs korean terrans, even after he showed how very few were able to replicate it, and mostly used it effective vs protoss.
These examples are maybe awhile back now but I still find it interesting that these things happened in EU and not in KR, and that the legacy of late game players like stephano, snute and firecake still makes some impression on the EU zerg scene.
So I'm not surprised that the next good EU zerg in serral is very good at holds, and playing longer macro games.
On November 08 2018 19:42 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: ever since Serral recorded his first victory against an elite Korean—(Wiki)Rain in Fragbite Masters 2015 Season 4
On November 09 2018 01:05 Greenei wrote: Fun fact: Maru's year was more impressive than Serral's.
It would've been if he had won Blizzcon (or gotten further than Serral at least), but it was pretty even between them up until Blizzcon, but not now.
The fact anyone can say this is outright bizarre. Before Serral won blizzcon they were sitting on one weekender each, with Maru having three GSLs on top of that.
I swear if soO, Dark, or Rogue had won the exact same events as Serral, people would have agreed Maru's year was better. Not too long ago Rogue won four weekenders in a row (2x as many with koreans as Serral) and no one except Artosis was singing his praise to this extent.
Give us the power rank! This is a great article, but I need to see Serral at the top of a power rank before he possibly bombs in HSC and gets placed lower.
On November 09 2018 08:14 Pandain wrote: Give us the power rank! This is a great article, but I need to see Serral at the top of a power rank before he possibly bombs in HSC and gets placed lower.
They did a BlizzCon power rank less than two weeks ago. Maybe next one is December.
I think Serral winning Blizzcon was a big mental hurdle the foreign community needed to overcome. Foreigners have a reputation of shrinking in big moments but Serral didn't and hopefully that will trickle down to the rest of the community.
Now we are back to Korean elitist Chairosaur; I actually preferred the "god bonjwa Serral" one, tbh!
I don't think there can even be a discussion if you are convinced making to Ro8 in GSL twice is better than winning 4 WCS; then, i guess, Gamja is way stronger than Serral in your eyes as he made Ro8 in the last ONPOONG Unranked tournament.
On November 09 2018 08:35 Xain0n wrote: Rogue accomplished nothing before his three weekenders in 2017 and IEM WC was in 2018.
I think it's worth nothing that Rogue won another premier tournament just a few months after patch 4.0. And only lost 5 maps (3 of which to Maru) in that tournament.
On November 09 2018 09:46 Xain0n wrote: Now we are back to Korean elitist Chairosaur; I actually preferred the "god bonjwa Serral" one, tbh!
I don't think there can even be a discussion if you are convinced making to Ro8 in GSL twice is better than winning 4 WCS; then, i guess, Gamja is way stronger than Serral in your eyes as he made Ro8 in the last ONPOONG Unranked tournament.
Didn't know Onpoong unranked tournament is a GSL... If you compare the paths GSL ro8 is for sure harder than winning WCS. Maru for example was in the last season in the easiest group and had to beat Reynor and Neeb to advance - that could as well be the opponents in ro4 and finals in a WCS event.
It's not a GSL but it's Korean, so incredibly more competitive than any foreigner tournament.
Seriously speaking, for a Korean Zerg winning WCS could be probably harder than winning GSL right now, given how they perform against Serral and their understanding of ZvZ; not like they actually win GSL, Life was the last.
If I compare the paths Blizzcon is easier than Montreal; it is for real?
On November 09 2018 09:46 Xain0n wrote: Now we are back to Korean elitist Chairosaur; I actually preferred the "god bonjwa Serral" one, tbh!
I don't think there can even be a discussion if you are convinced making to Ro8 in GSL twice is better than winning 4 WCS; then, i guess, Gamja is way stronger than Serral in your eyes as he made Ro8 in the last ONPOONG Unranked tournament.
Didn't know Onpoong unranked tournament is a GSL... If you compare the paths GSL ro8 is for sure harder than winning WCS. Maru for example was in the last season in the easiest group and had to beat Reynor and Neeb to advance - that could as well be the opponents in ro4 and finals in a WCS event.
Yeah, foreigners like Neeb aren't even comparable competition. Hey, does anyone remember who made the ro4 and nearly the finals last GSL? They played against TY and lost 2-4 after almost going up 3-1. The name is slipping my memory atm...
I don't know about that Kev...he's met all the requirements
No he hasn't.
To qualify as a bonjwa he'd have to beat all other dominant players in a multi-game match. He has not faced off against Maru in a series that counts, except for WESG where he got stomped. He also hasn't faced TY.
Secondly, his domination has been complete, but only over half the scene and only for ~8 months. Compare this to true bonjwas like boxer, iloveoov or savior, whose dominance lasted years.
Has he stepped onto the path to truly be a bonjwa? Yes. But so have many others who fell off. The only sc2 player to perhaps maybe reach a status close to that of bonjwa was mvp. And I still wouldn't even call him a bonjwa. His dominance simply wasn't complete enough.
At this point even if Serral wins 3 straight GSLs in 2019 someone probably will come up with other excuses like "tHe KoReaN coMpetitiOn is nOt wHat It wAs"!
On November 09 2018 04:08 sM.Zik wrote: Serral made me install SC2 again after a full year without playing a single game, and almost 3 years without playing seriously.
Same here! First times since forever I feel hyped for sc2 again 8)!
Serral mentioned more than once Stats isn't the best as PvZ and that it is his weakness; however, Stats took 5 games from Serral in the two finals they disputed and did seem to fare way better in the matchup if compared to the other top Korean Protoss(Classic,Zest,s0s). Shouldn't we assume Stats has the best PvZ in Korea, then? If so, PvZ as well as ZvZ is regarded as better understood/developed in foreigner Circuit than in Korea and we have to think Neeb has the best PvZ in the world?
On November 11 2018 03:28 Xain0n wrote: Serral mentioned more than once Stats isn't the best as PvZ and that it is his weakness; however, Stats took 5 games from Serral in the two finals they disputed and did seem to fare way better in the matchup if compared to the other top Korean Protoss(Classic,Zest,s0s). Shouldn't we assume Stats has the best PvZ in Korea, then? If so, PvZ as well as ZvZ is regarded as better understood/developed in foreigner Circuit than in Korea and we have to think Neeb has the best PvZ in the world?
I've seen a few pro's suggest Neeb's PvZ maybe the best in the world atm. I'd personally still say stats is but Neeb is def top 3.
Serral is by far the most inately gifted starcraft 2 gamer so far. Life and Maru were both good too but Serral is straight up on a different level, doing it all himself.
Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
article: [...]He did the same to Rogue in the semifinals, a pair of victories as impressive as any we’ve seen in recent years[...]
A bit of an understatement to me, game 4 of this encounter was the best ZvZ I've ever seen. We're blessed we get to download the replay and appreciate everything that was missed in the live cast.
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
You may be right that the scene itself is currently past its peak from a couple years ago, but is the quality of the gameplay? I enjoyed Nestea, DRG, Life ( ;-( ), Rogue, etc. but I've never seen anything like Serral.
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists.
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists.
Maybe every article about sc2 should mention that sc2 isn't as big now as it was in 2012, and if it were, these noobs who wins these tournaments wouldn't ever even make it out of group stages but the scene is just so shit nowadays that even these inferior players manage to win.
GSL 3 times in a row? Well don't wan't to be apologists so we must point out that Korean scene sucks now compared to the past so don't get too excited. Maru isn't that amazing, it's just that the whole scene is in decline. Not exactly the kind of article that I'd enjoy reading about a sport that I like.
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
I think this part quite openly states what you just mentioned, no?
The dissolution of KeSPA teams in late 2016 was a demoralizing blow, possibly a coup de grâce in more fraught circumstances, but the remaining Korean pros stalwartly adapted to their new environment. They returned to their winning ways in 2017, sweeping all the major international events. Despite the withdrawal of KeSPA, the utter lack of new talent, and the combination of retirements and resurgence of the Brood War scene, the momentum Korea had built up over decades was still overwhelming. Even on the tail end of the avalanche, foreigners were being buried.
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists.
Maybe every article about sc2 should mention that sc2 isn't as big now as it was in 2012, and if it were, these noobs who wins these tournaments wouldn't ever even make it out of group stages but the scene is just so shit nowadays that even these inferior players manage to win.
GSL 3 times in a row? Well don't wan't to be apologists so we must point out that Korean scene sucks now compared to the past so don't get too excited. Maru isn't that amazing, it's just that the whole scene is in decline. Not exactly the kind of article that I'd enjoy reading about a sport that I like.
yeah you have a point. Though I also think that Maru winning 3 GSLs is in part because of the decline of the korean scene.
regarding koreans vs foreigners, declining scene, etc.:
you know, if somebody hangs in the air like Michael Jordan did, then you recognize and acknowledge that talent no matter what the level of basketball as a scene was at the time. To see this equivalent talent, just open a replay and check for yourself how Serral actually plays.
Secondly, the greatness of a player / athlete should always be considered and evaluated in a given context and it is pretty much impossible to compare people from different eras. Is Hines achievement being the first to break the 10 second barrier during a 100m sprint in 1968 worth less just because the field has advanced and sub-10-second times are done routinely now? Absolutely not. Yes, the Koreans don't have team house support anymore like they used to have. But neither has Serral. Skill is about what you achieve with the tools you get.
On November 12 2018 06:42 imp42 wrote: regarding koreans vs foreigners, declining scene, etc.:
you know, if somebody hangs in the air like Michael Jordan did, then you recognize and acknowledge that talent no matter what the level of basketball as a scene was at the time. To see this equivalent talent, just open a replay and check for yourself how Serral actually plays.
Secondly, the greatness of a player / athlete should always be considered and evaluated in a given context and it is pretty much impossible to compare people from different eras. Is Hines achievement being the first to break the 10 second barrier during a 100m sprint in 1968 worth less just because the field has advanced and sub-10-second times are done routinely now? Absolutely not. Yes, the Koreans don't have team house support anymore like they used to have. But neither has Serral. Skill is about what you achieve with the tools you get.
I don't even think the loss of teamhouses is that big of a factor for the decline in skill. Most of the current pros know how to practice and some even had a sudden increase in skill after the teams disbanded (soO, Inno). The age is the bigger factor imo, most koreans are hitting an age where their mechanics slowly evaporate but they don't get replaced by new talent because there isn't new talent breaking into the scene.
I'm not saying Maru or Serral suck - obviously they are incredibly good, just that what they are achieving now would have been much much harder 3-4 years ago.
On November 12 2018 06:42 imp42 wrote: regarding koreans vs foreigners, declining scene, etc.:
you know, if somebody hangs in the air like Michael Jordan did, then you recognize and acknowledge that talent no matter what the level of basketball as a scene was at the time. To see this equivalent talent, just open a replay and check for yourself how Serral actually plays.
Secondly, the greatness of a player / athlete should always be considered and evaluated in a given context and it is pretty much impossible to compare people from different eras. Is Hines achievement being the first to break the 10 second barrier during a 100m sprint in 1968 worth less just because the field has advanced and sub-10-second times are done routinely now? Absolutely not. Yes, the Koreans don't have team house support anymore like they used to have. But neither has Serral. Skill is about what you achieve with the tools you get.
I don't even think the loss of teamhouses is that big of a factor for the decline in skill. Most of the current pros know how to practice and some even had a sudden increase in skill after the teams disbanded (soO, Inno). The age is the bigger factor imo, most koreans are hitting an age where their mechanics slowly evaporate but they don't get replaced by new talent because there isn't new talent breaking into the scene.
I'm not saying Maru or Serral suck - obviously they are incredibly good, just that what they are achieving now would have been much much harder 3-4 years ago.
Yeah I've said it a few times before. There is a reason why the oldest BW OSL champion was only 23 (and vast majority are younger than 21). Doesn't make it impossible to be at the top at an old age though; Nestea proved this and while FlaSh can't go back in time, I'm pretty sure he would still be near the top even in the pro BW era. It's still an important factor to consider though. INnoVation himself said months ago in an interview posted on the Starcraft Reddit that "Maru is a very good player, still young, while I am starting to feel my limits, my body and my brain are slowed down so I think the gap will continue to widen between us."
I hope that isn't the case even though odds are stacked against him. As an INnoVation fan, I hope that he comes back next year and does really well. Moreover, I hope the Korean scene can still compete against Serral in the next few years and it's not like it's just Serral, Maru, Dark, TY and Rogue at the top (with the older SC2 pros having retired or declined).
Maybe Korean scene isn't as vibrant as it used to be bit the level of play is much higher that it was in 2012 for example. Skill is more refined and the game itself is much more complex and much faster and demanding.
On November 12 2018 22:20 hiroshOne wrote: Maybe Korean scene isn't as vibrant as it used to be bit the level of play is much higher that it was in 2012 for example. Skill is more refined and the game itself is much more complex and much faster and demanding.
Higher than in 2012? Sure. Higher than in 2013-2015? I don't think so.
On November 12 2018 22:20 hiroshOne wrote: Maybe Korean scene isn't as vibrant as it used to be bit the level of play is much higher that it was in 2012 for example. Skill is more refined and the game itself is much more complex and much faster and demanding.
Higher than in 2012? Sure. Higher than in 2013-2015? I don't think so.
(1) that was HotS, which was quite a different game. (2) I don't htink that's true either. 2013-2015 was prime time for Innovation and Zest. Do you think 2014 innovation would beat 2018 innovation?
Also, let me remind you that 2014 had Hyun, San and StarDust in the top 8 WCS players... I'd put any of the top 8 koreans from 2018 against any of these 3.
On November 12 2018 22:20 hiroshOne wrote: Maybe Korean scene isn't as vibrant as it used to be bit the level of play is much higher that it was in 2012 for example. Skill is more refined and the game itself is much more complex and much faster and demanding.
Higher than in 2012? Sure. Higher than in 2013-2015? I don't think so.
(1) that was HotS, which was quite a different game. (2) I don't htink that's true either. 2013-2015 was prime time for Innovation and Zest. Do you think 2014 innovation would beat 2018 innovation?
Also, let me remind you that 2014 had Hyun, San and StarDust in the top 8 WCS players... I'd put any of the top 8 koreans from 2018 against any of these 3.
Hyun, San and Stardust were only top 8 because of the WCS system. Would 2014 INnoVation beat 2018 INnoVation? Well, that doesn't make sense because they're playing different games. 2014 INnoVation would win when they play HotS and 2018 Inno would win when they play LotV. The only thing that can be compared is mechanics and all data that we have indicates that mechanics get worse as the players are getting older (which is why they usually can't compete anymore when they hit a certain age). And Inno himself said he feels he's getting slower.
Very good article, a pleasure to read. I hope we have more events next year. One event more in WCS and one global event more would be so nice! Koreans are surely dissecting Serral’s play with extremely sharp knifes...
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists.
Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level. I think many people just happen to see the top level of the Korean scene to still be leaps and bounds better than most anyone else except for Serral.
And the writers aren't writing about how much the Korean scene has deteriorated because that leads to a pretty unenthusiastic and shitty hype article. "Serral triumphed over the corpse of the malnourished and frail Korean scene, putting the poor thing out of its misery once for all, to claim the title of Blizzcon World Champion" doesn't exactly get people excited for the future. I don't think anyone is happy with the Korean scene in its current state or thinks its still this fabled land of heavy-hitting juggernauts from top to bottom. Plus, as someone already mentioned before me, this article did, in fact, address Korea being in a weaker state than before, so it sounds like you didn't even read the article you're complaining about.
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists.
Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level. I think many people just happen to see the top level of the Korean scene to still be leaps and bounds better than most anyone else except for Serral.
And the writers aren't writing about how much the Korean scene has deteriorated because that leads to a pretty unenthusiastic and shitty hype article. "Serral triumphed over the corpse of the malnourished and frail Korean scene, putting the poor thing out of its misery once for all, to claim the title of Blizzcon World Champion" doesn't exactly get people excited for the future. I don't think anyone is happy with the Korean scene in its current state or thinks its still this fabled land of heavy-hitting juggernauts from top to bottom. Plus, as someone already mentioned before me, this article did, in fact, address Korea being in a weaker state than before, so it sounds like you didn't even read the article you're complaining about.
Yeah that was a bad post Should have deleted it tbh...
On November 13 2018 05:25 NinjaNight wrote: How can Serral be considered the best player in the world? Maru still had a better year than him, just unfortunately ran into his kryptonite ($o$)
“If you do not count his losses, Maru had a better year”
On November 13 2018 05:25 NinjaNight wrote: How can Serral be considered the best player in the world? Maru still had a better year than him, just unfortunately ran into his kryptonite ($o$)
“If you do not count his losses, Maru had a better year”
Oh one loss for Maru makes Serral's year better than his? Sorry I wasn't aware. Did Serral win 3 GSL's this year? That's unprecedented, nothing Serral did can top that.
It s still weird to read all these "Koreans are still better and btw they are trash that s why serral could luck out a win" #GSListhehighestskilltournamentbyfarandtheonlyonethatmatters #KoreansceneisdeadRIP
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were. Sure,there are no good rookies, but some of you shifted your opinions from Koreans are miles above the foreigners, to Korean scene just died and the foreign necrophaguos scavengers are just picking at the corpse of the once mighty beast.
On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote: Top Koreans are as good as they ever were.
What makes you think that?
I watch the games, some of you should try that. Plus if that s not good enough for you, If you say that Koreans were at top of their game one or two years ago, there is no reasonable string of events that could have led from that point to a massive skill drop, since most players are still playing, motivated by larger chunks of money and increased viewership. Everyone says they re practicing hard, they were preparing for GSL and/or Blizzcon.
If you were already thinking the koreans dropped in skill heavily a year ago or so, do link those comments.
On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote: It s still weird to read all these "Koreans are still better and btw they are trash that s why serral could luck out a win" #GSListhehighestskilltournamentbyfarandtheonlyonethatmatters #KoreansceneisdeadRIP
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were. Sure,there are no good rookies, but some of you shifted your opinions from Koreans are miles above the foreigners, to Korean scene just died and the foreign necrophaguos scavengers are just picking at the corpse of the once mighty beast.
Strongly disagree there. The number of teams and good players- the Korean scene in general- was much deeper and greater years ago. That being said, it definitely appears that Serral has officially become the top foreigner throughout the history of StarCraft 2, dethroning Stephano.
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists.
Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level.
On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote: It s still weird to read all these "Koreans are still better and btw they are trash that s why serral could luck out a win" #GSListhehighestskilltournamentbyfarandtheonlyonethatmatters #KoreansceneisdeadRIP
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were. Sure,there are no good rookies, but some of you shifted your opinions from Koreans are miles above the foreigners, to Korean scene just died and the foreign necrophaguos scavengers are just picking at the corpse of the once mighty beast.
Strongly disagree there. The number of teams and good players- the Korean scene in general- was much deeper and greater years ago. That being said, it definitely appears that Serral has officially become the top foreigner throughout the history of StarCraft 2, dethroning Stephano.
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists.
Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level.
Except for Geo.Rion lol
But you're missing the point. There's a difference between "depth" and "top skill level". I certainly would not say that the very top koreans of today are "worse" than the very top koreans of 2013 and 2014, and absolutely not in any significant way.
But of course the difference is that while in 2013/2014 there were like 30-40 top koreans, nowadays there's only really ~10 top level players (numbers not meant to be exact at all).
You can definitely say that winning a GSL is "easier" nowadays than maybe it was in the past (because I would say the top top players are almost always certain to get out of the Ro32 and even ro16.).
What people like you and Charoisaur should be saying, which is undeniable, is that probably the Korean scene would be more talented if the infrastructure of 2013-2015 was still around. Teamhouses and the abundance of top players would make that pretty much unavoidable. But that is a completely different argument than that korean players are worse . In my eyes, it's just there's not the rapid upward rise that might have been otherwise.
If you agree to this, you should also say that none of this really applies to Serral's blizzcon win anyway, because he went through the top two zergs and the top protoss to get his crown.
On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote: It s still weird to read all these "Koreans are still better and btw they are trash that s why serral could luck out a win" #GSListhehighestskilltournamentbyfarandtheonlyonethatmatters #KoreansceneisdeadRIP
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were. Sure,there are no good rookies, but some of you shifted your opinions from Koreans are miles above the foreigners, to Korean scene just died and the foreign necrophaguos scavengers are just picking at the corpse of the once mighty beast.
Strongly disagree there. The number of teams and good players- the Korean scene in general- was much deeper and greater years ago. That being said, it definitely appears that Serral has officially become the top foreigner throughout the history of StarCraft 2, dethroning Stephano.
On November 13 2018 06:32 StasisField wrote:
On November 12 2018 03:44 Charoisaur wrote:
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists.
Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level.
Except for Geo.Rion lol
But you're missing the point. There's a difference between "depth" and "top skill level". I certainly would not say that the very top koreans of today are "worse" than the very top koreans of 2013 and 2014, and absolutely not in any significant way.
But of course the difference is that while in 2013/2014 there were like 30-40 top koreans, nowadays there's only really ~10 top level players (numbers not meant to be exact at all).
You can definitely say that winning a GSL is "easier" nowadays than maybe it was in the past (because I would say the top top players are almost always certain to get out of the Ro32 and even ro16.).
What people like you and Charoisaur should be saying, which is undeniable, is that probably the Korean scene would be more talented if the infrastructure of 2013-2015 was still around. Teamhouses and the abundance of top players would make that pretty much unavoidable. But that is a completely different argument than that korean players are worse . In my eyes, it's just there's not the rapid upward rise that might have been otherwise.
If you agree to this, you should also say that none of this really applies to Serral's blizzcon win anyway, because he went through the top two zergs and the top protoss to get his crown.
I agree with you that team houses and an abundance of top players make the scene more competitive, which is why I don't think the scene is as competitive now as it used to be. I also think that those things made players better (by being able to practice with more people, more consistently), so with those things gone (or, at least, greatly reduced), I feel like it logically follows that the players now don't have as many resources as they used to. This could definitely mean that either the players who are left probably aren't as good as they could have been if we still had the infrastructure, and/or it could mean- as you said- that the upper echelon of players nowadays is only ~10, as opposed to ~30-40.
I'm definitely not saying that Serral didn't deserve his win (or the credit he's earned).
On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote: Top Koreans are as good as they ever were.
What makes you think that?
I watch the games, some of you should try that. Plus if that s not good enough for you, If you say that Koreans were at top of their game one or two years ago, there is no reasonable string of events that could have led from that point to a massive skill drop, since most players are still playing, motivated by larger chunks of money and increased viewership. Everyone says they re practicing hard, they were preparing for GSL and/or Blizzcon.
If you were already thinking the koreans dropped in skill heavily a year ago or so, do link those comments.
You're ignoring the age factor. Players don't stay at their peak skill level forever. Innovation himself said he feels that he's getting slower. I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer.
On November 14 2018 01:52 Charoisaur wrote: [...] I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer.
that's a very interesting observation actually. I'm curious how exactly mechanics of aging players deteriorate over time. Do you think it can be measured by apm?
In other fields (say software development for example) less fluid intelligence and slower speed are compensated with more experience. This surely holds in sc2 as well, but in sc2 we might be able to better separate the two components.
if we simplify "skill = mechanics + experience (knowledge)", then the fact players get worse with age means the gain in experience cannot make up for the loss in mechanics.
On November 14 2018 01:52 Charoisaur wrote: [...] I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer.
that's a very interesting observation actually. I'm curious how exactly mechanics of aging players deteriorate over time. Do you think it can be measured by apm?
In other fields (say software development for example) less fluid intelligence and slower speed are compensated with more experience. This surely holds in sc2 as well, but in sc2 we might be able to better separate the two components.
if we simplify "skill = mechanics + experience (knowledge)", then the fact players get worse with age means the gain in experience cannot make up for the loss in mechanics.
What are your thoughts?
Probably it's a mix of apm, reaction time and accuracy though I don't know for sure. A pro could surely answer this better. To a certain point the disadvantage can surely be overcome with experience, you can even see this in how pros change their playstyle over time. Where Zest just bullied everyone in macro games a few years ago he has now become a player who wins with very sharp timings and tricks. 2013 Inno just did the same build every game and was wildly succesful with it and over time he was forced to mix up his play much more. The younger player will always be at an advantage though and at a certain point it can't be overcome anymore.
On November 14 2018 01:52 Charoisaur wrote: [...] I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer.
that's a very interesting observation actually. I'm curious how exactly mechanics of aging players deteriorate over time. Do you think it can be measured by apm?
In other fields (say software development for example) less fluid intelligence and slower speed are compensated with more experience. This surely holds in sc2 as well, but in sc2 we might be able to better separate the two components.
if we simplify "skill = mechanics + experience (knowledge)", then the fact players get worse with age means the gain in experience cannot make up for the loss in mechanics.
What are your thoughts?
Probably it's a mix of apm, reaction time and accuracy though I don't know for sure. A pro could surely answer this better. To a certain point the disadvantage can surely be overcome with experience, you can even see this in how pros change their playstyle over time. Where Zest just bullied everyone in macro games a few years ago he has now become a player who wins with very sharp timings and tricks. 2013 Inno just did the same build every game and was wildly succesful with it and over time he was forced to mix up his play much more. The younger player will always be at an advantage though and at a certain point it can't be overcome anymore.
Heh. Just watch MVP return and win another GSL just to prove you wrong. He'll probably do it with his wrists in a cast, because they are so fucked.
On November 13 2018 17:00 Geo.Rion wrote: It s still weird to read all these "Koreans are still better and btw they are trash that s why serral could luck out a win" #GSListhehighestskilltournamentbyfarandtheonlyonethatmatters #KoreansceneisdeadRIP
Top Koreans are as good as they ever were. Sure,there are no good rookies, but some of you shifted your opinions from Koreans are miles above the foreigners, to Korean scene just died and the foreign necrophaguos scavengers are just picking at the corpse of the once mighty beast.
Strongly disagree there. The number of teams and good players- the Korean scene in general- was much deeper and greater years ago. That being said, it definitely appears that Serral has officially become the top foreigner throughout the history of StarCraft 2, dethroning Stephano.
On November 12 2018 03:19 archonOOid wrote: Good article but maybe it should be mentioned that the Korean scene while dominant isn't as vibrant as it has been in the past. Serral's win is poking a hole in the deteriorating Korean sc2 scene built up by bw, eroded by increasingly stronger winds from other games in the current decade and a shrinking player pool/popularity.
Foreigner apologists don't want to acknowledege this. In their minds the gap closing is solely due to foreigners improving. I can see why the writers don't want to mention this so they don't get crucified by foreigner apologists.
Who is saying this lol. I'm pretty sure everybody knows the Korean scene is a shadow of its former self in terms of depth and overall skill level.
Except for Geo.Rion lol
"lol" Well, maybe learn to read . Im talking about the top players. Yes, the middle of the road Korean pro isnt worth as much anymore, and yes there s certainly not much in way of reinforcement, and per total there are a lot less pro players. That being said the top players are playing at a very high skill level.
And if you could read, you d know, i wrote this phenomenon isnt new. So if you were saying how Korean scene has declined 1-2 year ago, and it s only a matter of time foreigners take over, kudos to you. But if someone was spouting until recently how Koreans are so much better, and now they starting to whine how the skill level has declined, and that s the only reason Serral could win, then you have some issues to work out
How some of you people can live your everyday lives despite having such a strong cognitive dissonance it s truly amazing.
On November 14 2018 08:18 terribleplayer1 wrote: Pandain basically got it right, there's less depth in GSL, but the top10 Koreans are the strongest they have ever been.
That makes sense because top players that emerged during a phase where there was a lot of competition and a large player base don't suddenly become bad when the scene is past its peak (maybe marginally due to less practice partner choices available). It's the new blood that suffers.
One important point I'd like mentioned more often amidst all gloom is : probability-adjusted rewards to Korean players, per tournament, are at an all-time high.
- prizepools higher or through the roof (Blizzcon anyone ?) & more concentrated - GSL de facto a top16 (realistically, top12 + 4for) rather than top32 tournament - fixed part of compensation -team salaries- on average lower, nil for some - higher barriers to entry due to planned obsolescence of SC2 skill - the game will be 10y old fairly soon, sadly...
If you view players as rational agents that invest their time, heart and motivation into prep, then these incentives should mean the strong get stronger (the scene gets more and more skewed, much like in economics where the rich tend to get richer) - this is what we're seeing in top12 Kor, as statistically, good luck to anyone taking on Maru, Stats, or Dark.
This is significant because foreigners aren't competing against the 'average' Korean - that notion doesn't really exist anymore.
That effect more than makes up for the very valid point of them aging IMHO. I'm not looking fwd to the unavoidable wave of military retirements... but until then, we can enjoy fantastic gameplay for a while longer.
On November 14 2018 01:52 Charoisaur wrote: [...] I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer.
that's a very interesting observation actually. I'm curious how exactly mechanics of aging players deteriorate over time. Do you think it can be measured by apm?
In other fields (say software development for example) less fluid intelligence and slower speed are compensated with more experience. This surely holds in sc2 as well, but in sc2 we might be able to better separate the two components.
if we simplify "skill = mechanics + experience (knowledge)", then the fact players get worse with age means the gain in experience cannot make up for the loss in mechanics.
What are your thoughts?
Probably it's a mix of apm, reaction time and accuracy though I don't know for sure. A pro could surely answer this better. To a certain point the disadvantage can surely be overcome with experience, you can even see this in how pros change their playstyle over time. Where Zest just bullied everyone in macro games a few years ago he has now become a player who wins with very sharp timings and tricks. 2013 Inno just did the same build every game and was wildly succesful with it and over time he was forced to mix up his play much more. The younger player will always be at an advantage though and at a certain point it can't be overcome anymore.
I would also count in the boldness of youth in comparison to the more mature way of playing defensive. Not sure how to explain this properly. I think it was Heromarine vs SoS. Heromarine was ahead most of the game but didn't go for a ending move. Most youngsters would just gone and try to end, but Heromarine wasn't decisive enough or whatever and overthought the situation. Does that make sense?
EDIT: Maru vs Ty in GSL S3 finals game 5 or sth. Maru was kinda behind, but just saying "fuck it" im going in.
I have been thinking a lot about Serral and Maru lately and I think now I understand why this situation is very tricky:
1) It has been always the case that the top SC 2 players were in Korea. This means, if someone could win 3 GSLs in a row, that person would undoubtedly be the best player in the world and such an accomplishment would be considered an absolutely historic one. And this was also one of the reasons GSL was so hype: all the best players are here and they are all trying very hard. This assumption has been ingrained in us for so long that we no longer think about it, we don't question it and we don't consider what it would mean if it were false.
2) However, Serral proved that this year the above assumption is false. He has dominated all the top Koreans except Maru. So we can no longer assume that "all of the contenders for the best player were in Korea". As a result, we should look differently at those accomplishments by Maru; this year's GSL did not involve all the best players. I don't think anyone can dispute this fact, unless if you think Serral is not among the top 4 best players in the world which is a ridiculous assumption. So even if you place Serral as the no. 4 (which again, I cannot see how you can place him lower than no 2), the logical conclusion is that the GSLs this year did not involve all the contenders of the best player in the world. But of course, the WCS tournaments also did not involve all the contenders and in fact objectively, WCS were far less densely populated with the "contenders for the best player in the world" compared to GSL.
3) So what does this leave us with? I think with the reasonable conclusion that Maru and Serral are both no. 1 and no. 2 but so far Serral has had a better showing in the tournaments that they both have competed in this year with the caveat that they all have been "weekend" tournaments. On the other hand, the GSL format is also a little bit weird with the player selected groups so all in all, we do not have a definitive answer to the Serral vs Maru question.
Could Maru beat Serral if Serral were competing in GSL? Absolutely, but the other way around was also absolutely possible.
On November 14 2018 01:52 Charoisaur wrote: [...] I don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in korean sc2 is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer.
that's a very interesting observation actually. I'm curious how exactly mechanics of aging players deteriorate over time. Do you think it can be measured by apm?
In other fields (say software development for example) less fluid intelligence and slower speed are compensated with more experience. This surely holds in sc2 as well, but in sc2 we might be able to better separate the two components.
if we simplify "skill = mechanics + experience (knowledge)", then the fact players get worse with age means the gain in experience cannot make up for the loss in mechanics.
What are your thoughts?
I think it's more on the fly critical thinking than anything. I don't think players are slowing down as in their hands can't keep up. Just look at painists: they play for decades, keeping up the same speed and talent as they drift into their 50's+. Their ability to memorize a song and play it flawlessly is not hindered by their age nearly as quickly as we might think, and I believe the same can be said for a SC2 player's APM. The reason players get "slower" at a faster rate than a pianist does is because the human brain's ability to process information and critically think on the fly begins to slow down quite early in a person's life, starting in a person's early 20's if I remember correctly. Because of this, seeing and processing new information in the game takes longer in the brain, causing players to react slower and press buttons later than they used to.
I don't want to detract from Serral's accomplishments. He has done something no foreigner has done in the past, so he definitely deserves the credit. However, I think people are overreacting to something that happened when the competitive scene's health has been declining in SC2, especially in South Korea. The Korean scene has not been as rigorous since almost all teams, except for Jin Air, had disbanded. Teams played integral part in maintaining a rigorous competitive scene Korea. They allowed players to focus on playing the game and practice more efficiently. Likely related to the issue of no team, the second problem is that South Korean scene has not seen a new high level pro in years. I can't remember the last time I saw a brand new player since Dream. Most Korean players are aging, and this definitely affects both their practice and tournament performances. With the lack of new talents to invigorate the game, the Korean scene has steadily lost the highly competitive environment that gave players incentives to come up with new game play. With all that said, I feel that Serral's accomplishment is likely a mixture of foreign scene improving as well as severely declining Korean scene.
As someone previously pointed out, there isn't new blood and the korean scene has less depth but top players stay strong; they might have aged, sure, but Maru, the one who dominated this year in Korea, was born in 1997! Serral won Blizzcon facing the very top Koreans, not the supposedly lacking ones mid tier Koreans.
its not like older players cant keep up with the speed in one or two games, the problem is that your playstyle will gradually adapt to a slower gameplay because you can't keep training balls to the walls like you could when you were young.