Balance Mod Update Oct 23, 2018 - Page 2

On October 30 2018 08:50 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote:


That's a really helpful comment my friend. Reality is that Swarmhosts are currently too strong vs mech (and honestly even look strong vs protoss) and that certainly is a problem in the game right now that you can't deny.

You may hate me and avilo etc. but it doesnt change the fact how the unit currently interacts in the game.

Feel free to ignore my words, but atleast take your time to listen to pro players.

On October 30 2018 15:16 hiroshOne wrote:


Oh yeah? Immortals feel strong vs mech too and vs Zerg as well. Tanks feel strong vs Protoss and Zerg as well. Does it mean that they should be nerfed? Well Immortals maybe should esoecially with robo cost buff.

Swarmhosts are only problematic for turtling mech players like Avilo. As for Protoss, I feel that with hydra nerf, Zerg needs some strong answers vs Protoss. Are SH this answer? Seems like it. But still using them has downfalls. Like low mobility and looong cooldown. I don't feel there's balance problem with SH. In PvZ it's sth new, and Protoss players needs to adapt. It always takes some time.

On October 31 2018 00:01 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote:


Yes immortals are a strong counter unit to siegetanks, but it's not that simple.

immortals have to engage in order to fight siegetanks. So the terran player gets the opportunity to add immortal counter to his army composition like for exmaple marines, hellbats with medivac, liberator, banshees, etc...

It's not just about theoretical unit counters, its about how units interact with each other in a realistic game.

Swarmhosts can launch their free locust waves without committing to an actual engagement, They dont need to move into combat range.

So swarmhosts can sit in a safe position, launch locusts and then retreat if needed. Swarmhosts are still fast enough to simply escape from every factory unit (except hellions, but they dont deal damage) and the way how locusts function this patch makes it impossible to negate locust damage.

Locusts can not only fly and avoid terrain, they can also get microd to precisely drop on top of selected units. So if you siege up your tanks, the locusts will doomdrop on top of them, causing massive friendly fire or forcing the terran to unsiege. Both situations are worst case scenarios.

When it comes to starport units, the only available option to hunt down swarmhosts are speedbanshee, which are not only a massive investment, but also easily countered by every available Anti air option of zerg. The fact that mech upgrades got split up, makes speedbanshee even worse.

To make Swarmhosts balanced vs mech, you need to give mech an opportunity to either counterplay swarmhosts directly or give mech a way to negate locusts waves since they are free.

Because right now, mech simply lacks either of those options. You cant counter swarmhosts directly and because of how locusts work you cant negate locusts waves either.

I'm convinced that sooner or later swarmhosts will need some kind of redesign. I don't understand why the community seems to tolerate something like this in the game. Did we already forget heart of the swarm ?

On October 31 2018 00:01 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote:


Yes immortals are a strong counter unit to siegetanks, but it's not that simple.

immortals have to engage in order to fight siegetanks. So the terran player gets the opportunity to add immortal counter to his army composition like for exmaple marines, hellbats with medivac, liberator, banshees, etc...

It's not just about theoretical unit counters, its about how units interact with each other in a realistic game.

Swarmhosts can launch their free locust waves without committing to an actual engagement, They dont need to move into combat range.

So swarmhosts can sit in a safe position, launch locusts and then retreat if needed. Swarmhosts are still fast enough to simply escape from every factory unit (except hellions, but they dont deal damage) and the way how locusts function this patch makes it impossible to negate locust damage.

Locusts can not only fly and avoid terrain, they can also get microd to precisely drop on top of selected units. So if you siege up your tanks, the locusts will doomdrop on top of them, causing massive friendly fire or forcing the terran to unsiege. Both situations are worst case scenarios.

When it comes to starport units, the only available option to hunt down swarmhosts are speedbanshee, which are not only a massive investment, but also easily countered by every available Anti air option of zerg. The fact that mech upgrades got split up, makes speedbanshee even worse.

To make Swarmhosts balanced vs mech, you need to give mech an opportunity to either counterplay swarmhosts directly or give mech a way to negate locusts waves since they are free.

Because right now, mech simply lacks either of those options. You cant counter swarmhosts directly and because of how locusts work you cant negate locusts waves either.

I'm convinced that sooner or later swarmhosts will need some kind of redesign. I don't understand why the community seems to tolerate something like this in the game. Did we already forget heart of the swarm ?

On October 31 2018 01:56 ThunderJunk wrote:
I'm worried about the cyclone and the nydus worms. Otherwise, looks good. 75/75 might be a better cost.

On October 31 2018 06:53 Ben... wrote:
From a balance perspective, I don't think swarmhosts are strong, but from the perspective of "Are these units fun to play against/use and do they create interesting games?"

On October 31 2018 07:04 Tyrhanius wrote:

That's exactly what i think about mech. Mech hasn't never provided any fun\great games situation outside TvT.
The game will be so much better if you delete mech\SH, and TvZ is back to LBM vs 4M.

On October 31 2018 06:53 Ben... wrote:
From a balance perspective, I don't think swarmhosts are strong, but from the perspective of "Are these units fun to play against/use and do they create interesting games?" they are bad in the same way carriers and broodlords are. With carriers and broodlords, it's a binary situation where either you have the units to deal with them, or you don't, and if you don't, you lose. Swarmhosts are more frustrating in that they have that same binary scenario but they can also attack while simultaneously retreating.

Unless the opponent is actively moving out, there is no risk or cost to the swarmhost player to send a swarm of locusts to try and target down a nexus or planetary while the opponent has to sacrifice resources to defend. Attacking swarmhosts has the same problem, if the attacker doesn't have an overwhelmingly strong army such that it can easily kill all the locusts and then kill the swarmhosts before another wave of locusts can be sent, then the swarmhost player automatically comes out ahead because their opponent had to use resources to fight something that doesn't cost resources. Every mech vs. swarmhost and protoss vs. swarmhost game inevitably ends up like that. If the protoss doesn't have enough splash damage to comfortably kill the first wave of locusts without taking much damage, they likely lose, albeit in a slow, boring fashion. If the mech player doesn't have enough hellbats to comfortably kill off the first wave locusts, then the mech player will probably slowly lose also. In either case though, if they do easily hold the locusts, the zerg probably loses. There's no real dynamic to matches with swarmhosts that make them interesting.

Broodlords also attack with "free" units, but have the risks of being slow to retreat and being vulnerable to being picked off. Carriers after this patch goes through will have similar weaknesses: they will be slow to retreat, and vulnerable without units to back them up since they no longer can overwhelm with interceptors. Swarmhosts have none of these issues because they can retreat quickly, and are hard to overwhelm.

Swarmhosts were the unit that made me quit playing this game for 4 years, and if they become popular again, I could see myself quitting again.

On October 31 2018 18:05 seemsgood wrote:

and thanks fucking god blizzard found your opinion in mech ain't thier concern and keep improving it for mech lovers like me.GOOD JOB BLIZZARD
talk about SH tho...this unit is balanced currently but they are no brainer units and should not be added in the game since they guarantee zerg players a safe hive tech progress in nine out of ten games
which isn't necessary because it's not like no way for zerg players to reach late game without SHs and when terran want to do a ground mech push,this unit gives nothing but only force terran back to thier base and start turtling but in truth ,the true turtling motherfucker is zerg with 6 naturals and one millions broodlords waiting to pop out....