Thanks for testing out the most recent balance changes, and for your continued helpful feedback. After reading over the discussions, we’d like to make a few more changes to the testing matchmaking queue.
Terran
Cyclone - Attack-moving Cyclones will stop at 7 range instead of 5 range when Locked on to an enemy target. Previously, when an attack-moving Cyclone would Lock On to an enemy target, the Cyclone would continue to move toward its target until it was 5 range away. This was due to its weapon having 5 range but the Lock On ability having 7 range. As a result, Cyclones would put themselves in danger against 6-range opponents such as Immortals and Ravagers. After this change, the Cyclone will now behave like other units—stopping at maximum effective range when given an attack-move order.
Medivac -"High Capacity Fuel Tanks" upgrade name changed to "Rapid Reignition System". Since the effects of this upgrade are changing, we’re going to update its name to better capture its new functionality. We also want to take the time to clarify its new functionality:
- A Medivac without any upgrades can boost for 5.71, seconds with 8.57 seconds of downtime (40% uptime). - A Medivac with the old “High Capacity Fuel Tanks” upgrade could boost for 8.57 seconds with 5.71 seconds of downtime (60% uptime). - A Medivac with the new “Rapid Reignition System” upgrade will be able to boost for 5.71 seconds with 3.57 seconds of downtime (62% uptime).
We believe this new upgrade will be more attractive and promote multi-tasking-based drop play more than the previous one did.
Protoss
Warp Prism - Pick-up range reverted from 5 to 6.
After reviewing feedback, we have decided to revert the pick-up range from 5 to 6 as we’d like for all races to feel like they have strong options out of the gate with the new patch.
Countdown Timer
We like the addition of the new countdown timer because it can provide players with a smoother transition from the loading screen to the start of a match. However, we’ve discovered some issues with the feature and would like to resolve them before pushing this countdown timer live. We’ll be removing the countdown timer from the testing matchmaking queue for now, but we plan to reintroduce it at a later date.
Upcoming changes
We’re also planning to introduce two additional changes in the new season, but they require code modifications, so they cannot be directly added to the balance testing mod. We plan to introduce the following changes in an upcoming post-Blizzcon patch:
SCV - SCV single-click selection priority will now be higher than the buildings they are constructing
During intense Bunker rushes, the ability for the Bunkers to be completed can often mean the difference between success and failure. The defender is highly incentivized to destroy the SCVs building the Bunkers, but it’s currently difficult to do so, partially because buildings under construction can block the ability to click on the SCV building it. We don’t believe this interaction should be a core skill-testing component of StarCraft, so we’ll be making a change that allows SCVs to be more easily clicked while constructing structures.
At the same time, we’re slightly concerned about the effect of this change on early-game SCV harass (such as when a Terran player is building a Command Center at their natural expansion), so we’ll be keeping a close eye on this change.
Barracks, Factory, Starport - Tech Lab - If a player tries to lift a structure when there is an upgrade being researched in an attached Tech Lab, the player will not be able to do so and will receive a red text error message. This change prevents players from accidently cancelling an upgrade while attempting to lift buildings.
Lastly, in order to prepare for the upcoming changes that will go live with the next ladder season, we will be turning off the balance testing matchmaking queue on October 30th. During this downtime, we will start implementing art changes and resolving any issues or bugs that may come up. Even though the balance testing matchmaking queue will be off, the balance test mod extension mod will still be available for custom games."
Blizzard also handily included an updated list of all previous changes, which is probably a good thing since there's been so many updates. It was getting rather silly trying to remember four announcements worth of changes.
TERRAN Widow Mine - The Drilling Claws upgrade now permanently cloaks Widow Mines when they're burrowed. - If Drilling Claws is researched, the Widow Mine will have a visual indicator to show that the unit has the upgrade. Cyclone - Now requires a Tech Lab to be built at the Factory. - Health decreased from 180 to 120. - Movement speed increased from 4.13 to 4.73. - Unit armor set to 1. - Supply cost increased from 3 to 4. - Tornado Blaster weapon changed to the Typhoon Missile Pod weapon: - Damage changed from 3 (+2 vs Armored) to 18. - Can target air and ground units. - Attack rate changed from 0.1 to 0.71. - Range decreased from 6 to 5. = Weapon upgrades changed from +1 to +2 to account for the new damage value. - Lock On ability changed: Ability can auto-cast. Can now target ground and flying units and structures. Damage changed from 160 to 400 damage over 14 seconds. - Rapid Fire Launchers upgrade removed. - Added Mag-Field Accelerator upgrade: - After researching Mag-Field Accelerator upgrade, Lock On will deal 400 (+400 vs Armored) over 14 seconds to ground and flying targets. Thor - Armor reduced from 2 to 1. - Explosive Payload AoE radius reduced from 0.6 to 0.5. - 250mm Punisher Cannons damage changed from 35 (+15 vs Armored) to 40 (+10 vs Massive). - 250mm Punisher Cannons weapon speed reduced from 2.14 to 1.79. Medivac - "High Capacity Fuel Tanks" upgrade name changed to "Rapid Reignition System." - " Rapid Reignition System" upgrade will no longer increase duration by 50%. Instead, it will decrease cooldown duration from 14 seconds to 9 seconds. - Medivacs can now heal units Graviton'd by Phoenix. Banshee - Hyperflight Rotors upgrade cost decreased from 200/200 to 150/150. Raven - Anti-Armor splash damage reduced from 15 to 0. - In addition to armor reduction, Anti-Armor Missile will also reduce Protoss shields by 3. Battlecruiser - Removed random delay between shots. - AA damage reduced from 6 to 5. - Can now move while shooting. - Yamato Cannon damage reduced from 300 to 240. Engineering Bay - Neosteel Frame and Structure Armor upgrades merged. The new upgrade is called Neosteel Armor and will retain the functionality of both upgrades combined. It will cost 150 Minerals/150 Gas and take 100 seconds to research.
ZERG Creep - Creep Tumor, Hatchery, Lair, Hive, Nydus Worm - Time in between creep growth increased from 0.3 to 0.45. Overlord - Time between Generate Creep growth periods increased from 0.36 to 0.45. Queen - Transfuse restores 75 health and an additional 50 health over 7.14 seconds, down from 125 health instantly. Zergling - Unburrow speed reduced from 0.71 to 0.36. - Unburrow random delay reduced from 0.36 to 0.08. Roach - Tunneling Claws no longer increases the health regeneration rate of Roaches from 7 hp/second to 14 hp/second. - Tunneling Claws cost decreased from 150/150 to 100/100. Hydralisk - Unburrow speed reduced from 0.71 to 0.36. - Unburrow random delay reduced from 0.36 to 0.08. - Needle Spines attack speed slowed from 0.54 to 0.59. Infestor - Infestor unit radius decreased from 0.75 to 0.625. - Model scale decreased from 0.85 to 0.75. - Burrowed unit radius now matches the new unborrowed unit radius. - Infestors can now move through units while burrowed. - Fungal Growth will no longer allow affected units to Blink, Tactical Jump, or load into transports/buildings. - Infested Terran cast range increased from 7 to 8. Ultralisk - New upgrade added: “Evolve Anabolic Synthesis” Cost: 150 Minerals/150 Gas/79 Seconds Increases Ultralisk speed when off creep from 4.13 to 4.55. The Ultralisk on creep will remain the same at 5.36. If Anabolic Synthesis is researched, the Ultralisk will have a visual indicator to show that the unit has the upgrade. Nydus Network and Nydus Worm - Nydus Network cost decreased from 150/200 to 150/150. - Nydus Worm costs decreased from 100/100 to 50/50. - Nydus Worm will no longer be invincible when emerging but will have 6 armor. Burrow/Unburrow - Burrow and Unburrow have been separated into two distinct keys. - Burrowed and Unburrowed Zerg unit types will now be on the same tab-select, and both will be selected when double clicking on units.
PROTOSS Nexus - Chrono Boost will now display a visual status on the structure. - Mass Recall renamed to Strategic Recall. - Strategic Recall radius reduced from 6.5 to 2.5. - Strategic Recall cooldown reduced from 130 to 85 seconds. Sentry - Hallucination energy cost decreased from 100 to 75. - Guardian Shield radius increased from 4 to 4.5. High Templar - Feedback now deals 0.5 damage per point of energy drained, down from 1 damage. Dark Templar - Shadow Stride research time reduced from 121 to 100 seconds. - Shadow Stride cooldown reduced from 21 to 14 seconds. Robotics Facility - Cost decreased from 200/100 to 150/100. Colossus - Colossus weapon will now have turret tracking. Disruptor - Purification Nova changed back to pre-4.0 state. Purification Nova deploys a ball of energy that will detonate after 2 seconds, dealing 155 damage and an additional 55 shield damage to all ground units in its radius. - Purification Nova no longer detonates on contact with enemy units. - Purification Nova now sends a threat signal to the opponent on detonation instead of during the launch phase. Void Ray - Prismatic Speed reduction from 40% to 25%. Tempest - Cost decrease from 300/200 to 250/175. - Supply cost decreased from 6 to 5. - HP/Shields reduced from 300/150 to 150/125. - Move speed increased from 2.63 to 3.5. - Acceleration increased from 1.49 to 2.8. Carrier - Build time decreased from 86 seconds to 64 seconds. - HP/Shields increased from 250/150 to 300/150. - Interceptor build time increased from 6 to 11. - Graviton Catapult upgrade removed from the Fleet Beacon. - Interceptor release period changed from 0.36 to 0.27. Mothership - Strategic Recall name changed to Mass Recall. - In addition to slowing unit movement speed by 50%, Time Warp will now also reduce unit and structure attack speed by 50%. Assimilator - HP/Shields reduced from 450/450 to 300/300. Shield Battery - Health and shields reduced from 200/200 to 150/150. - Shield Battery can now regenerate shields of units Graviton'd by Phoenix. Gateway - "Transform to Warp Gate" will now be an auto-cast ability.
As for my thoughts, I would like a bit of clarification from them on what they mean for that SCV change since it's not overly clear. Do they mean that clicking a building bunker or other building will automatically target the SCV first rather than the building? Or do they mean when you click to attack an SCV your units will follow it as it moves around the building rather than attacking the building after the SCV changes corners? The latter option makes way more sense. The former would be a substantial nerf to bunker rushes.
I am glad about the many quality-of-life changes like the countdown timer (even though it has to be reworked according to Blizzard) and burrow hotkeys, as well as auto-transform for Gateways to Warpgates.
Do they mean that clicking a building bunker or other building will automatically target the SCV first rather than the building?
I think this. It's weird for sure, but it eliminates some randomness as right now sometimes the SCV is hidden and can't be clicked. So maybe it's good.
I'm kind of confuse on the scv thing, are they saying when you a+click it will attack the scv automaticly and not the building or just that we will now be able to click on the scv constructing even when it's "in" the building?
I recall a few users suggesting a compromise that made an upgraded Widow Mine permanently invisible when burrowed. Welp, it has arrived. I hope it stays this way.
With SCV building a building - I think it is about clicking priority, rather than order priority.
Here is my interpretation:
If there is an SCV sharing pixels with a building under a construction (SCV covers the building, or vice-versa), clicking at that pixel will select the SCV rather than the building. So, it will be a bit easier - on the interface side - to give an order to attack an SCV. But the actual behavior of units, given this or that order, is going to be the same.
As for my thoughts, I would like a bit of clarification from them on what they mean for that SCV change since it's not overly clear.
Pretty sure they mean the SCV's selection collider will be placed above the constructing structure's, as opposed to how it is now. Right now, to select/target an SCV, you need to get your mouse on its collider without touching the collider of the constructing building because the building collider is a higher priority, ie only possible when SCV is on the corners (and your screen is rotated the right way).
With this change you will still need mouse accuracy to target-fire constructing SCV's with a ranged unit, but you don't have to wait till they're specifically at the corners.
I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Seems they are just putting some finalizing touches, glad they've kept it this way, it's a lot of fun. PS: So units under the effect of fungal can still be recalled, right?
Honestly, this revamps are good for keep the people playing the game but, i remember these days on 2015 when the intro video of LOTV talked about Micro micro micro micro micro.
But, the main problems on balance come from the sensation people have to outmicro like god against compositions that even go further than 1-a: plant and bait.
This kind of sensations make people leave playing. But who cares when i can spend a tonfuck of dollars on skins.
As for my thoughts, I would like a bit of clarification from them on what they mean for that SCV change since it's not overly clear.
Pretty sure they mean the SCV's selection collider will be placed above the constructing structure's, as opposed to how it is now. Right now, to select/target an SCV, you need to get your mouse on its collider without touching the collider of the constructing building because the building collider is a higher priority, ie only possible when SCV is on the corners (and your screen is rotated the right way).
With this change you will still need mouse accuracy to target-fire constructing SCV's with a ranged unit, but you don't have to wait till they're specifically at the corners.
Ah this makes perfect sense. Thank you. That sounds quite reasonable.
On October 30 2018 01:42 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Blizzard does not and should not balance around low levels of play.
On October 30 2018 01:42 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Blizzard does not and should not balance around low levels of play.
On October 30 2018 01:42 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Nobody cares about Swarmhost except avilo and you. They are not an issue in professional play.
On October 30 2018 01:42 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Nobody cares about Swarmhost except avilo and you. They are not an issue in professional play.
That's a really helpful comment my friend. Reality is that Swarmhosts are currently too strong vs mech (and honestly even look strong vs protoss) and that certainly is a problem in the game right now that you can't deny.
You may hate me and avilo etc. but it doesnt change the fact how the unit currently interacts in the game.
Feel free to ignore my words, but atleast take your time to listen to pro players.
On October 30 2018 01:42 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Nobody cares about Swarmhost except avilo and you. They are not an issue in professional play.
That's a really helpful comment my friend. Reality is that Swarmhosts are currently too strong vs mech (and honestly even look strong vs protoss) and that certainly is a problem in the game right now that you can't deny.
You may hate me and avilo etc. but it doesnt change the fact how the unit currently interacts in the game.
Feel free to ignore my words, but atleast take your time to listen to pro players.
Oh yeah? Immortals feel strong vs mech too and vs Zerg as well. Tanks feel strong vs Protoss and Zerg as well. Does it mean that they should be nerfed? Well Immortals maybe should esoecially with robo cost buff.
Swarmhosts are only problematic for turtling mech players like Avilo. As for Protoss, I feel that with hydra nerf, Zerg needs some strong answers vs Protoss. Are SH this answer? Seems like it. But still using them has downfalls. Like low mobility and looong cooldown. I don't feel there's balance problem with SH. In PvZ it's sth new, and Protoss players needs to adapt. It always takes some time.
On October 30 2018 01:42 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Nobody cares about Swarmhost except avilo and you. They are not an issue in professional play.
Yep. Dismiss and move on. It doesn't even make logical sense how these people think.
I play mech in every matchup. I agree that swarmhosts are strong vs mech but mech can counter swarmhosts by counterattacking. It is not like vs Carriers where you more or less auto die if they get the numbers up.
That said Swarmhosts should cost more resources, the current price is too low for the benefit they provide.
I imagine they will need to do a lot of numbers-adjusting after this patch goes live. It seems to me that the number of nerfs to Protoss that were to compensate for the buffs are pretty much gone. The carrier, the warp prism, etc.
Seems like Zerg is being buffed some also, while Terran is very questionable. But we will see. The changes are generally good and should be adjustable by simple changing damage/armor.
On October 30 2018 01:42 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Nobody cares about Swarmhost except avilo and you. They are not an issue in professional play.
That's a really helpful comment my friend. Reality is that Swarmhosts are currently too strong vs mech (and honestly even look strong vs protoss) and that certainly is a problem in the game right now that you can't deny.
You may hate me and avilo etc. but it doesnt change the fact how the unit currently interacts in the game.
Feel free to ignore my words, but atleast take your time to listen to pro players.
The biggest problem is tanks, they are too strong, and are the backbone of mech army. SH are the only option avaible to counter them before hive, but the units still arrive before lair.
Tanks should be reworked, or at least mass tanks should be nerfed (by allowing overkill like in Broodwar for example), then we can talk to rework SH.
On October 30 2018 01:42 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Nobody cares about Swarmhost except avilo and you. They are not an issue in professional play.
That's a really helpful comment my friend. Reality is that Swarmhosts are currently too strong vs mech (and honestly even look strong vs protoss) and that certainly is a problem in the game right now that you can't deny.
You may hate me and avilo etc. but it doesnt change the fact how the unit currently interacts in the game.
Feel free to ignore my words, but atleast take your time to listen to pro players.
Oh yeah? Immortals feel strong vs mech too and vs Zerg as well. Tanks feel strong vs Protoss and Zerg as well. Does it mean that they should be nerfed? Well Immortals maybe should esoecially with robo cost buff.
Swarmhosts are only problematic for turtling mech players like Avilo. As for Protoss, I feel that with hydra nerf, Zerg needs some strong answers vs Protoss. Are SH this answer? Seems like it. But still using them has downfalls. Like low mobility and looong cooldown. I don't feel there's balance problem with SH. In PvZ it's sth new, and Protoss players needs to adapt. It always takes some time.
Yes immortals are a strong counter unit to siegetanks, but it's not that simple.
immortals have to engage in order to fight siegetanks. So the terran player gets the opportunity to add immortal counter to his army composition like for exmaple marines, hellbats with medivac, liberator, banshees, etc...
It's not just about theoretical unit counters, its about how units interact with each other in a realistic game.
Swarmhosts can launch their free locust waves without committing to an actual engagement, They dont need to move into combat range.
So swarmhosts can sit in a safe position, launch locusts and then retreat if needed. Swarmhosts are still fast enough to simply escape from every factory unit (except hellions, but they dont deal damage) and the way how locusts function this patch makes it impossible to negate locust damage.
Locusts can not only fly and avoid terrain, they can also get microd to precisely drop on top of selected units. So if you siege up your tanks, the locusts will doomdrop on top of them, causing massive friendly fire or forcing the terran to unsiege. Both situations are worst case scenarios.
When it comes to starport units, the only available option to hunt down swarmhosts are speedbanshee, which are not only a massive investment, but also easily countered by every available Anti air option of zerg. The fact that mech upgrades got split up, makes speedbanshee even worse.
To make Swarmhosts balanced vs mech, you need to give mech an opportunity to either counterplay swarmhosts directly or give mech a way to negate locusts waves since they are free.
Because right now, mech simply lacks either of those options. You cant counter swarmhosts directly and because of how locusts work you cant negate locusts waves either.
I'm convinced that sooner or later swarmhosts will need some kind of redesign. I don't understand why the community seems to tolerate something like this in the game. Did we already forget heart of the swarm ?
On October 30 2018 01:42 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Nobody cares about Swarmhost except avilo and you. They are not an issue in professional play.
That's a really helpful comment my friend. Reality is that Swarmhosts are currently too strong vs mech (and honestly even look strong vs protoss) and that certainly is a problem in the game right now that you can't deny.
You may hate me and avilo etc. but it doesnt change the fact how the unit currently interacts in the game.
Feel free to ignore my words, but atleast take your time to listen to pro players.
Oh yeah? Immortals feel strong vs mech too and vs Zerg as well. Tanks feel strong vs Protoss and Zerg as well. Does it mean that they should be nerfed? Well Immortals maybe should esoecially with robo cost buff.
Swarmhosts are only problematic for turtling mech players like Avilo. As for Protoss, I feel that with hydra nerf, Zerg needs some strong answers vs Protoss. Are SH this answer? Seems like it. But still using them has downfalls. Like low mobility and looong cooldown. I don't feel there's balance problem with SH. In PvZ it's sth new, and Protoss players needs to adapt. It always takes some time.
Yes immortals are a strong counter unit to siegetanks, but it's not that simple.
immortals have to engage in order to fight siegetanks. So the terran player gets the opportunity to add immortal counter to his army composition like for exmaple marines, hellbats with medivac, liberator, banshees, etc...
It's not just about theoretical unit counters, its about how units interact with each other in a realistic game.
Swarmhosts can launch their free locust waves without committing to an actual engagement, They dont need to move into combat range.
So swarmhosts can sit in a safe position, launch locusts and then retreat if needed. Swarmhosts are still fast enough to simply escape from every factory unit (except hellions, but they dont deal damage) and the way how locusts function this patch makes it impossible to negate locust damage.
Locusts can not only fly and avoid terrain, they can also get microd to precisely drop on top of selected units. So if you siege up your tanks, the locusts will doomdrop on top of them, causing massive friendly fire or forcing the terran to unsiege. Both situations are worst case scenarios.
When it comes to starport units, the only available option to hunt down swarmhosts are speedbanshee, which are not only a massive investment, but also easily countered by every available Anti air option of zerg. The fact that mech upgrades got split up, makes speedbanshee even worse.
To make Swarmhosts balanced vs mech, you need to give mech an opportunity to either counterplay swarmhosts directly or give mech a way to negate locusts waves since they are free.
Because right now, mech simply lacks either of those options. You cant counter swarmhosts directly and because of how locusts work you cant negate locusts waves either.
I'm convinced that sooner or later swarmhosts will need some kind of redesign. I don't understand why the community seems to tolerate something like this in the game. Did we already forget heart of the swarm ?
The new/old Cyclone will be fast enough to catch SH, so maybe this is the answer to your problem.
On October 30 2018 01:42 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote: I wonder for how long blizzard will dodge the swarmhosts topic.
I really hope they will include swarmhosts changes to the major patch, this patch is the perfect opportunity. Please don't just ignore it for another whole year.
Nobody cares about Swarmhost except avilo and you. They are not an issue in professional play.
That's a really helpful comment my friend. Reality is that Swarmhosts are currently too strong vs mech (and honestly even look strong vs protoss) and that certainly is a problem in the game right now that you can't deny.
You may hate me and avilo etc. but it doesnt change the fact how the unit currently interacts in the game.
Feel free to ignore my words, but atleast take your time to listen to pro players.
Oh yeah? Immortals feel strong vs mech too and vs Zerg as well. Tanks feel strong vs Protoss and Zerg as well. Does it mean that they should be nerfed? Well Immortals maybe should esoecially with robo cost buff.
Swarmhosts are only problematic for turtling mech players like Avilo. As for Protoss, I feel that with hydra nerf, Zerg needs some strong answers vs Protoss. Are SH this answer? Seems like it. But still using them has downfalls. Like low mobility and looong cooldown. I don't feel there's balance problem with SH. In PvZ it's sth new, and Protoss players needs to adapt. It always takes some time.
Yes immortals are a strong counter unit to siegetanks, but it's not that simple.
immortals have to engage in order to fight siegetanks. So the terran player gets the opportunity to add immortal counter to his army composition like for exmaple marines, hellbats with medivac, liberator, banshees, etc...
It's not just about theoretical unit counters, its about how units interact with each other in a realistic game.
Swarmhosts can launch their free locust waves without committing to an actual engagement, They dont need to move into combat range.
So swarmhosts can sit in a safe position, launch locusts and then retreat if needed. Swarmhosts are still fast enough to simply escape from every factory unit (except hellions, but they dont deal damage) and the way how locusts function this patch makes it impossible to negate locust damage.
Locusts can not only fly and avoid terrain, they can also get microd to precisely drop on top of selected units. So if you siege up your tanks, the locusts will doomdrop on top of them, causing massive friendly fire or forcing the terran to unsiege. Both situations are worst case scenarios.
When it comes to starport units, the only available option to hunt down swarmhosts are speedbanshee, which are not only a massive investment, but also easily countered by every available Anti air option of zerg. The fact that mech upgrades got split up, makes speedbanshee even worse.
To make Swarmhosts balanced vs mech, you need to give mech an opportunity to either counterplay swarmhosts directly or give mech a way to negate locusts waves since they are free.
Because right now, mech simply lacks either of those options. You cant counter swarmhosts directly and because of how locusts work you cant negate locusts waves either.
I'm convinced that sooner or later swarmhosts will need some kind of redesign. I don't understand why the community seems to tolerate something like this in the game. Did we already forget heart of the swarm ?
Mech is perfectly viable, else pro Terran won't play it.
You think what ? They are in blizzcon, and say "I will play a less powerful playstyle because i like to play mech even it's weaker " ?
The funny part is the TvZ went 7-3 for Terran, but you're whining zerg hasn't won less...
From a balance perspective, I don't think swarmhosts are strong, but from the perspective of "Are these units fun to play against/use and do they create interesting games?" they are bad in the same way carriers and broodlords are. With carriers and broodlords, it's a binary situation where either you have the units to deal with them, or you don't, and if you don't, you lose. Swarmhosts are more frustrating in that they have that same binary scenario but they can also attack while simultaneously retreating.
Unless the opponent is actively moving out, there is no risk or cost to the swarmhost player to send a swarm of locusts to try and target down a nexus or planetary while the opponent has to sacrifice resources to defend. Attacking swarmhosts has the same problem, if the attacker doesn't have an overwhelmingly strong army such that it can easily kill all the locusts and then kill the swarmhosts before another wave of locusts can be sent, then the swarmhost player automatically comes out ahead because their opponent had to use resources to fight something that doesn't cost resources. Every mech vs. swarmhost and protoss vs. swarmhost game inevitably ends up like that. If the protoss doesn't have enough splash damage to comfortably kill the first wave of locusts without taking much damage, they likely lose, albeit in a slow, boring fashion. If the mech player doesn't have enough hellbats to comfortably kill off the first wave locusts, then the mech player will probably slowly lose also. In either case though, if they do easily hold the locusts, the zerg probably loses. There's no real dynamic to matches with swarmhosts that make them interesting.
Broodlords also attack with "free" units, but have the risks of being slow to retreat and being vulnerable to being picked off. Carriers after this patch goes through will have similar weaknesses: they will be slow to retreat, and vulnerable without units to back them up since they no longer can overwhelm with interceptors. Swarmhosts have none of these issues because they can retreat quickly, and are hard to overwhelm.
Swarmhosts were the unit that made me quit playing this game for 4 years, and if they become popular again, I could see myself quitting again.
On October 31 2018 06:53 Ben... wrote: From a balance perspective, I don't think swarmhosts are strong, but from the perspective of "Are these units fun to play against/use and do they create interesting games?"
That's exactly what i think about mech. Mech hasn't never provided any fun\great games situation outside TvT. The game will be so much better if you delete mech\SH, and TvZ is back to LBM vs 4M.
The problem with SH is that they are literally a 'I'm gonna tilt you to death untill you uninstall the game' unit. The fact the damn things are also super cheap, easily massable and supremely tanky so you can't counter them with fast units helps add to the tilt. I think their mechanic, annoying as it is, is a good counter to turtle mech, but fuck, at least make them light so we can chase them down with hellions or nerf their hp so speed Banshees can be effective.
On October 31 2018 06:53 Ben... wrote: From a balance perspective, I don't think swarmhosts are strong, but from the perspective of "Are these units fun to play against/use and do they create interesting games?"
That's exactly what i think about mech. Mech hasn't never provided any fun\great games situation outside TvT. The game will be so much better if you delete mech\SH, and TvZ is back to LBM vs 4M.
and thanks fucking god blizzard found your opinion in mech ain't thier concern and keep improving it for mech lovers like me.GOOD JOB BLIZZARD talk about SH tho...this unit is balanced currently but they are no brainer units and should not be added in the game since they guarantee zerg players a safe hive tech progress in nine out of ten games which isn't necessary because it's not like no way for zerg players to reach late game without SHs and when terran want to do a ground mech push,this unit gives nothing but only force terran back to thier base and start turtling but in truth ,the true turtling motherfucker is zerg with 6 naturals and one millions broodlords waiting to pop out....
On October 31 2018 06:53 Ben... wrote: From a balance perspective, I don't think swarmhosts are strong, but from the perspective of "Are these units fun to play against/use and do they create interesting games?" they are bad in the same way carriers and broodlords are. With carriers and broodlords, it's a binary situation where either you have the units to deal with them, or you don't, and if you don't, you lose. Swarmhosts are more frustrating in that they have that same binary scenario but they can also attack while simultaneously retreating.
Unless the opponent is actively moving out, there is no risk or cost to the swarmhost player to send a swarm of locusts to try and target down a nexus or planetary while the opponent has to sacrifice resources to defend. Attacking swarmhosts has the same problem, if the attacker doesn't have an overwhelmingly strong army such that it can easily kill all the locusts and then kill the swarmhosts before another wave of locusts can be sent, then the swarmhost player automatically comes out ahead because their opponent had to use resources to fight something that doesn't cost resources. Every mech vs. swarmhost and protoss vs. swarmhost game inevitably ends up like that. If the protoss doesn't have enough splash damage to comfortably kill the first wave of locusts without taking much damage, they likely lose, albeit in a slow, boring fashion. If the mech player doesn't have enough hellbats to comfortably kill off the first wave locusts, then the mech player will probably slowly lose also. In either case though, if they do easily hold the locusts, the zerg probably loses. There's no real dynamic to matches with swarmhosts that make them interesting.
Broodlords also attack with "free" units, but have the risks of being slow to retreat and being vulnerable to being picked off. Carriers after this patch goes through will have similar weaknesses: they will be slow to retreat, and vulnerable without units to back them up since they no longer can overwhelm with interceptors. Swarmhosts have none of these issues because they can retreat quickly, and are hard to overwhelm.
Swarmhosts were the unit that made me quit playing this game for 4 years, and if they become popular again, I could see myself quitting again.
This post greatly summarizes the SH problem: the opponent either has enough during the first locust encouter and then proceed to slowly win the game or gets to much damage initially and zerg player gets an advantage which slowly snowballs into a win. This binary mechanic is not only dull but also after watching couple of games with SH you know how it will end but it takes a lot of time to finally finish the game. Currently SH are not seen that often that's why not many people whine about them but if they return to main meta then for sure there will be an outcry
On October 31 2018 06:53 Ben... wrote: From a balance perspective, I don't think swarmhosts are strong, but from the perspective of "Are these units fun to play against/use and do they create interesting games?"
That's exactly what i think about mech. Mech hasn't never provided any fun\great games situation outside TvT. The game will be so much better if you delete mech\SH, and TvZ is back to LBM vs 4M.
and thanks fucking god blizzard found your opinion in mech ain't thier concern and keep improving it for mech lovers like me.GOOD JOB BLIZZARD talk about SH tho...this unit is balanced currently but they are no brainer units and should not be added in the game since they guarantee zerg players a safe hive tech progress in nine out of ten games which isn't necessary because it's not like no way for zerg players to reach late game without SHs and when terran want to do a ground mech push,this unit gives nothing but only force terran back to thier base and start turtling but in truth ,the true turtling motherfucker is zerg with 6 naturals and one millions broodlords waiting to pop out....
Like mech units are "brained units"?
How can zerg defend a pre hive push with a lot of tanks ?
Admit it, you want zerg not to be able to defend that, you push, siege your tanks in front of B3, and zerg just...die.
This is it. If Blizzard will still fail to make the races equal on my level, then I will play the race that I find op. I got to Diamond 3 in Terran in one month but never to Masters. I got to Protoss Diamond 3 in fewer than 10 games and don't even have to try hard to maintain that. After this patch, I'm switching to Protoss main permanently so I can get to Masters eventually.
The problem with Swarmhosts is that it punishes lazy players too hard without beign a too management intensive unit. Heavy mech players do not like to counter-attack or harrass too much or even keep a proactive map control, they like to turtle and max out and Swarmhost is designed to punish that in the hardest way. You know it mech players, that's why Swarmhost is a nightmare for turtle players and a irrelevant unit to fight for more flexible players.
On November 01 2018 08:18 KR_4EVR wrote: If Blizzard will still fail to make the races equal on my level, then I will play the race that I find op.
^^ In any other competetive environment, this would be the very first solution players try. Why whine about the balance when you can just go play the strongest race?
There isn't a game on my level that I lose because of balance. I enjoy every new patch, for better or worse, because it keeps the game fresh. So kudos to Blizzard.
Terran is getting fucked over in TvP. I dont see how this matchup can be considered balanced when you take away early game options when late game is already very hard for terran. Building Battlecruisers against Protoss will not happen against protoss.
On November 03 2018 19:21 lohdon wrote: Terran is getting fucked over in TvP. I dont see how this matchup can be considered balanced when you take away early game options when late game is already very hard for terran. Building Battlecruisers against Protoss will not happen against protoss.
Yep, tempest are crazy good and with the yamato nerf, even voids do quite well.
On November 03 2018 19:21 lohdon wrote: Terran is getting fucked over in TvP. I dont see how this matchup can be considered balanced when you take away early game options when late game is already very hard for terran. Building Battlecruisers against Protoss will not happen against protoss.
By early game options do you mean "obviously proxy a barracks"? If so...I'm not sympathetic.
So when will Blizzard release this balance patch? Blizzcon is over so conceivably, Blizzard could release it tomorrow. The earlier they release it, the earlier the imbalance can be worked out so that they can patch the game faster.
On November 04 2018 11:53 xelnaga_empire wrote: So when will Blizzard release this balance patch? Blizzcon is over so conceivably, Blizzard could release it tomorrow. The earlier they release it, the earlier the imbalance can be worked out so that they can patch the game faster.
I also couldn't find any specifics in the blizzard's SC2 news section, I really hope they push it out today, really stoked on the changes (apart from Yamato nerf).
On November 04 2018 11:53 xelnaga_empire wrote: So when will Blizzard release this balance patch? Blizzcon is over so conceivably, Blizzard could release it tomorrow. The earlier they release it, the earlier the imbalance can be worked out so that they can patch the game faster.
I also couldn't find any specifics in the blizzard's SC2 news section, I really hope they push it out today, really stoked on the changes (apart from Yamato nerf).
I've read somewhere they would release it next season......... which is 20 november. Might happen earlier, I think they've changed season dates in the past, sometimes.
I was hoping that they would speak about this and release it fast, let every viewer know this game is free and fresh you know.
I thought it was gonna be at the end of the season, which would make the most sense, but you say they have sometimes pushed out a big patch before the end?
Or did you mean minor patches? Because this is end of the season patch we are talking about now, what did they do in late 2016/2017?
On November 03 2018 19:21 lohdon wrote: Terran is getting fucked over in TvP. I dont see how this matchup can be considered balanced when you take away early game options when late game is already very hard for terran. Building Battlecruisers against Protoss will not happen against protoss.
By early game options do you mean "obviously proxy a barracks"? If so...I'm not sympathetic.
No, I mean taking away the cyclone as an early threat. I als don't mind if they nerf the proxy meta but there is a reason terrans prefer to end the game early against protoss.
On November 04 2018 21:06 Poopi wrote: I thought it was gonna be at the end of the season, which would make the most sense, but you say they have sometimes pushed out a big patch before the end?
Or did you mean minor patches? Because this is end of the season patch we are talking about now, what did they do in late 2016/2017?
No, they've previously closed of the season before the planned date displayed in-game, e.g. 2015, so it could very well happen again. I would sure like to know in advance.
Darn, this sucks. Testing ladder is inactive and I'm kinda already switched to the new balance mindset. I really hope they give us the release date soon (and that it's not still two more weeks).
On November 06 2018 09:05 MrFreeman wrote: Darn, this sucks. Testing ladder is inactive and I'm kinda already switched to the new balance mindset. I really hope they give us the release date soon (and that it's not still two more weeks).
delay is good because creep spread 'nerf' is such a meaningless change that it's have to be nerfed more just to be visible at all, atm on balance map it takes literally few seconds more to spread creep through map compare to live.
also tempest acceleration is so good that it can escape from yamato.
I didn't really follow the whole "big patch" until now.
But I am surprised: why is there no outrage about toss air? If anything, these changes buff it even further, no? Are people really okay with the Golden Armada?
On November 07 2018 02:15 opisska wrote: I didn't really follow the whole "big patch" until now.
But I am surprised: why is there no outrage about toss air? If anything, these changes buff it even further, no? Are people really okay with the Golden Armada?
I also didn't follow much but I think they tried to nerf carrier. Toss players started crying and they changed the carrier to be even stronger than it is now. So I don't know what's the plan. Like I said I didn't follow too much so I could be wrong.
lol @ removing match countdown. Only good thing in this patch gets removed/delayed :/
lol seems like Blizzard is going to be slowing down on adjusting SC2 if this single slide is to be taken seriously.
What a shame.
That's exactly the same stuff they've been announcing every f***ing year up until now - they always say they don't want to do regular balance patches, but every year they end up doing another major revamp.
I'm all for stability and consistency when it comes to balance, which means they should just leave the game alone for good at some point, opposed to "shaking up the meta regularily to keep things fresh for players". To me, that's not what StarCraft is about, it's about the fiercest competition and striving to be the best player you can be and having to re-learn abilities, hotkeys (playing grid can be a nuisance) and unit interactions anually just doesn't cut it for me, when there are other (minor) things I could improve on. I've always loved the steep learning curve this game has, but getting constantly set back artificially because they still tinker around with balance just makes me not want to invest time into this game anymore.
So, in the end it's not a shame for me that they say they WANT to slow down on these patches, at all, I've been wishing for that for years now, but in reality it's just PR gibberish to me.
I am on the camp of more changes (at least on the pacing it is at now)
I don't want to have a dominating strategy that lasts months, with the only counter being early game all ins. And a year later the anti meta is developed and its some mid game all in.
i feel like blizzard really struggles to find a way to balance the game properly after all those expansions. Every expansion introduced new units, for the sake of adding new units. It has always been a PR move to add more units, it has never been about trying to get the multiplayer balance and design in a perfect spot.
If that would've been their goal since WoL release, they would not have added so many new units.
There are still many units/mechanics in the game that just don't seem to fit in.
As a hardcore 1v1 RTS player im honestly glad that lotv is the last expansion of SC2, because it means the balance team can finally focus on actually making SC2 a final and finished product, with a nice, optimal balance between the races and well designed, fun unit interactions.
But the problem is that we are stuck with so many new units, so im really curious how everything will turn out.
With this major patch units like for example disruptor and cyclone will simply get reverted to previous versions. Is it justified to be skeptical about it ?
Why should a revert fix previous issues ?
we will see how it will turn out...
P.S. I hope balance team will mention swarmhosts in one of their updates soon, would like to hear their thoughts about it.
Blizz needs to release the changes to ladder now, theres no point to not do it and the faster the better to have the changes tested and smoothed by the time next years season start.
I agree that releasing it now makes more sense, release it now, then address issues later before tournaments restart. The next "big" tournament is HSC right which has no points on offer so that shouldn't really matter. Should start throwing it out there to address any major balance concerns before WCS 2019 / GSL restarts
Plus with the hype around StarCraft at the moment makes sense to keep it going with a nice fresh big patch.
lol seems like Blizzard is going to be slowing down on adjusting SC2 if this single slide is to be taken seriously.
What a shame.
That's exactly the same stuff they've been announcing every f***ing year up until now - they always say they don't want to do regular balance patches, but every year they end up doing another major revamp.
I'm all for stability and consistency when it comes to balance, which means they should just leave the game alone for good at some point, opposed to "shaking up the meta regularily to keep things fresh for players". To me, that's not what StarCraft is about, it's about the fiercest competition and striving to be the best player you can be and having to re-learn abilities, hotkeys (playing grid can be a nuisance) and unit interactions anually just doesn't cut it for me, when there are other (minor) things I could improve on. I've always loved the steep learning curve this game has, but getting constantly set back artificially because they still tinker around with balance just makes me not want to invest time into this game anymore.
So, in the end it's not a shame for me that they say they WANT to slow down on these patches, at all, I've been wishing for that for years now, but in reality it's just PR gibberish to me.
i like the fact they shake up the ballance from time to time, the game has never reached a really ballanced state across all matchups prity much ever, so at least adjusting ballance keeps things fresh and prevents stale metagames.
On November 12 2018 16:03 pope742 wrote: Balance update coming November 16th. Source: ESTNN Starcraft News.
Quite questionable "source". The last time i checked it ingame it said the season will start on the 23 of november (can't confirm it atm). I also liked the part where he is hyping a 2nd (?) "complete game overhaul" (?). It's not the 2nd but a 3rd so called overhaul, and this year it's more of "incomplete" one.
Testing ladder has been inactive (for me at least) for at least over a week now, I wouldn't be surprised if they released the changes to ladder soon. Or at least a new update tomorrow.
I wonder if the old Cyclone will get any use. As far I can remember Cyclones were pretty much useless except building a single on early game as banshee/drop defense.
Btw, terrans. Why does everyone think that the old version of cyclone equals its removal? It costs less, attacks on move and has a longer range. Blizzard said they want to limit terran proxy options, but current version cyclones could be easily countered even with stalkers. The old one kites any ground units (even voidrays?) to death remaining untouchable. It's a perfect early proxy siege weapon. Tell me im wrong please. Does a lab requirement matter that much?
On November 13 2018 00:00 insitelol wrote: Btw, terrans. Why does everyone think that the old version of cyclone equals its removal? It costs less, attacks on move and has a longer range. Blizzard said they want to limit terran proxy options, but current version cyclones could be easily countered even with stalkers. The old one kites any ground units (even voidrays?) to death remaining untouchable. It's a perfect early proxy siege weapon. Tell me im wrong please. Does a lab requirement matter that much?
cost remains the same 150/100 and 4 supply instead of 3
On November 13 2018 00:00 insitelol wrote: Btw, terrans. Why does everyone think that the old version of cyclone equals its removal? It costs less, attacks on move and has a longer range. Blizzard said they want to limit terran proxy options, but current version cyclones could be easily countered even with stalkers. The old one kites any ground units (even voidrays?) to death remaining untouchable. It's a perfect early proxy siege weapon. Tell me im wrong please. Does a lab requirement matter that much?
cost remains the same 150/100 and 4 supply instead of 3
On November 13 2018 00:00 insitelol wrote: Btw, terrans. Why does everyone think that the old version of cyclone equals its removal? It costs less, attacks on move and has a longer range. Blizzard said they want to limit terran proxy options, but current version cyclones could be easily countered even with stalkers. The old one kites any ground units (even voidrays?) to death remaining untouchable. It's a perfect early proxy siege weapon. Tell me im wrong please. Does a lab requirement matter that much?
cost remains the same 150/100 and 4 supply instead of 3
Oh sorry, my bad. But what about everything else?
i guess they bad in small numbers and because of lab you can't mass them early game
I remember that I used cyclone/mine for a while to put some early pressure on Protoss. Problem is that it got shut down hard as soon as Protoss added some Disruptors. Suddenly you sat that with 40 supply that was more or less dead.
I think the cyclone will need some kind of buff or they will be really rare after the first few weeks of the patch.
On November 13 2018 00:00 insitelol wrote: Btw, terrans. Why does everyone think that the old version of cyclone equals its removal? It costs less, attacks on move and has a longer range. Blizzard said they want to limit terran proxy options, but current version cyclones could be easily countered even with stalkers. The old one kites any ground units (even voidrays?) to death remaining untouchable. It's a perfect early proxy siege weapon. Tell me im wrong please. Does a lab requirement matter that much?
cost remains the same 150/100 and 4 supply instead of 3
Oh sorry, my bad. But what about everything else?
180 to 120 HP. The old Cyclone immediately dies to anything.
The cyclone pushes right before the new cyclone was patched in were starting to get really interesting. Remember Innovation's 2 fac TvZ pressure build where he would float a barracks and use the cyclone to snipe overlords/queens etc. while protecting with hellions? Seems much more dynamic and nuanced than pulling SCVs and trying to facetank a bunch of damage.
I feel like the old cyclone will make pushes feel much more like ghost rushes do now, since snipe and lock-on kinda interact similarly. You can just pounce on ghost rushes if you see them coming though, and I think old cyclone rushes will be kinda similar. Really high risk rushes but very technical, so should be interesting to see. Plus, tech lab factory is a much less committal tech choice than ghost academy, so it might be more common too
On November 12 2018 21:44 dummy1 wrote: REalistically, i'd like to put goliaths and firebats instead of cyclones and hellions. It should help with everything.
Realistically, I'd like to watch brood war but for that I have SC:R
On November 13 2018 00:00 insitelol wrote: Btw, terrans. Why does everyone think that the old version of cyclone equals its removal? It costs less, attacks on move and has a longer range. Blizzard said they want to limit terran proxy options, but current version cyclones could be easily countered even with stalkers. The old one kites any ground units (even voidrays?) to death remaining untouchable. It's a perfect early proxy siege weapon. Tell me im wrong please. Does a lab requirement matter that much?
Just look at the awful stats: 120 hp, 4 supply, armored, mediocre mobility, low damage normal attack. Also its lock-on ability is only good against high hp, slow, short range units. How many units like this exist in SC2? Did I mention that the ability does not scale at all with numbers
On November 13 2018 00:00 insitelol wrote: Btw, terrans. Why does everyone think that the old version of cyclone equals its removal? It costs less, attacks on move and has a longer range. Blizzard said they want to limit terran proxy options, but current version cyclones could be easily countered even with stalkers. The old one kites any ground units (even voidrays?) to death remaining untouchable. It's a perfect early proxy siege weapon. Tell me im wrong please. Does a lab requirement matter that much?
Just look at the awful stats: 120 hp, 4 supply, armored, mediocre mobility, low damage normal attack. Also its lock-on ability is only good against high hp, slow, short range units. How many units like this exist in SC2? Did I mention that the ability does not scale at all with numbers
On November 13 2018 05:28 Loccstana wrote: Also its lock-on ability is only good against high hp, slow, short range units. How many units like this exist in SC2?
cyclones with 7 lock-on activation outrange upgraded hydras
what about the other zerg units?
hellions are super effective against lings, locusts, brood-lings, and fare pretty well against hydras.
hellions and lock-on cyclones have perfect movement speed / kiting synergy.
the only zerg ground units that really shut-down this combo are banelings, lurkers and infestors.
sprinkle in a few widow mines to zone out the banelings. pump tanks if zerg transitions to lurkers. widow mines also help vs roaches because they are quick to build. this is basically the mech version of HotS 4M.
cyclones can run rings around swarm hosts and punish zergs with no brain who park them outside your expansions. you just run your cyclones around the other side of the map and kill a hatchery... or, simply meet the swarm hosts half-way across the map, lock-on and chase them away, something you couldn't do with slow tornado blaster cyclones.
I think the best way for zerg to play against low-economy, ultra aggressive cyclone / hellion / mine is to expand slowly, don't try to trade units (because speed-mech can now out-macro swarmy zergs), and work up to an infestor-based high tech army.
sure, lock-on doesn't scale with upgrades. you say this like it's a bad thing! it's actually a very good thing for terran. tank-based mech is useless without 2/2. spell-based mech (cyclone + widow mine) is strong right off the bat. terrans have no reason to rush vehicle weapons thanks to these units... you can get by on armor upgrades only. the resources that normally go into a 2nd armory + vehicle weapons can be spent on 3 additional factories. now we have 8 factories very early in the game, pumping speedy assassin-style units.
Guys, let bring us back goliath and firebat. This is a solver for Blizzard puzzles. I saw it in a dream last night. Goliath and firebat. Goliath gives us a splash damage; bonus against armor air units; cheaper; protecting your mech balls; build it on reactor not laboratory. Firebat is so cool +10 to swag; splash damage; armor; good for your bio. Please, Blizzard hear me dream out loud.
On November 12 2018 21:44 dummy1 wrote: REalistically, i'd like to put goliaths and firebats instead of cyclones and hellions. It should help with everything.
Realistically, I'd like to watch brood war but for that I have SC:R
On November 13 2018 00:00 insitelol wrote: Btw, terrans. Why does everyone think that the old version of cyclone equals its removal? It costs less, attacks on move and has a longer range. Blizzard said they want to limit terran proxy options, but current version cyclones could be easily countered even with stalkers. The old one kites any ground units (even voidrays?) to death remaining untouchable. It's a perfect early proxy siege weapon. Tell me im wrong please. Does a lab requirement matter that much?
Just look at the awful stats: 120 hp, 4 supply, armored, mediocre mobility, low damage normal attack. Also its lock-on ability is only good against high hp, slow, short range units. How many units like this exist in SC2? Did I mention that the ability does not scale at all with numbers
What role does this unit play in any matchup?
Early game defense. Maybe an all-in or two.
so the role that the current Cyclone plays... Only worse. much worse
EPT
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