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On September 06 2018 00:11 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 21:51 DomeGetta wrote:On September 05 2018 21:41 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that. Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from. It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol. So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon I don't get your reasoning. Your original post appeared in this very thread (neeb vs TY series) and you pointed these series out as an indication for everyone to see that TvP is broken. But now you are backing off with "well that series may not clearly indicate that but lets take a look at the whole picture" stuff. I didn't watch every TvP this year but i watched a decent amount to claim that you are just making things up. Yes proxys happen here and there on both sides (clearly much more on Terran side), but there is no need to drag in arguments like "The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying" (what the hell that even supposed to mean?) or "protoss proxied with VR for a few months a year ago. Guilty!!!". This has nothing to do with TvP being "fucked up" at all. Terran proxy plays are relatively popular only due to protoss players not reacting properly, once protoss figure it out they will be gone. And protoss proxy plays... suck big time. Anyways i find it very entertaining and healthy for MU. Players are still trying different stuff. That's completely ok. And that applies to MU as a whole as well. TvP is STILL being figured out. Protoss, for instance, if you look at it from a years persepctive statrted with mass gates styles which later on evolved into colosi based stuff and eventually into stalker/disruptor comps that are relatively new for terrans (that's why they whine so much about it). Neeb perfectly capitalized on that. It was obvious that TY didn't have much practice vs that style. But he did show his competence as a PRO and adjusted his play to it during that crucial 16-bit game. Neeb relied only on TY being unprepared and that's why i said he lost his chances for hitting finals after he dropped that map. But why am i wasting my time on this. Ye, protoss imba, terran has no late game w/e blah blah blah. I've heard it all before. Since 2010 i guess. Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
It's gonna be terrans 5th GSL in a row actually.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 06 2018 03:40 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 01:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 06 2018 00:11 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:51 DomeGetta wrote:On September 05 2018 21:41 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that. Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from. It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol. So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon .... Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining. Similar arguments were used in TvZ during BLinfestor era. Mvp is winning, stop whining, play like Mvp. Yes, arguments were used indeed, but you missed on them. Completely.
I didn't. Mate, I main Protoss, but the current state of the game is retarded. And I don't say it's imbalanced or that Protoss is or isn't OP. The state of the PvT is shit. It needs to be fixed. But using as an argument that Terran is winning GSL is plainly stupid similarly as the Mvp case.
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That's the problem in this community.
Every time you point out a problem in the current metagame you get called a whiner no matter if the problem has to do with balance or with how enjoyable the game is.
If people wouldn't be so obsessed with maintaining their winrate on ladder and focused more on bringing the game in a better state we would be in a much better situation now.
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Writer picks 4-3 Neeb?!? Protoss biased. TY clearly a much better player and more dominant..... and he proved it.
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wow, what a prediction. did not expect that from TL
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On September 06 2018 07:42 Charoisaur wrote:
That's the problem in this community.
Every time you point out a problem in the current metagame you get called a whiner no matter if the problem has to do with balance or with how enjoyable the game is.
If people wouldn't be so obsessed with maintaining their winrate on ladder and focused more on bringing the game in a better state we would be in a much better situation now.
That's just some generic moralizing stuff. Calling someone a whiner doesn't affect the current state of the game. You could have added: lets all be friends or something.
On September 06 2018 07:19 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 03:40 insitelol wrote:On September 06 2018 01:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 06 2018 00:11 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:51 DomeGetta wrote:On September 05 2018 21:41 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that. Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from. It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol. So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon .... Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining. Similar arguments were used in TvZ during BLinfestor era. Mvp is winning, stop whining, play like Mvp. Yes, arguments were used indeed, but you missed on them. Completely. I didn't. Mate, I main Protoss, but the current state of the game is retarded. And I don't say it's imbalanced or that Protoss is or isn't OP. The state of the PvT is shit. It needs to be fixed. But using as an argument that Terran is winning GSL is plainly stupid similarly as the Mvp case.
The thing is that topic (TvP) is being discussed for almost a decade. And the all the same arguments are being raised every 2 years or so. "Terran got no option but to all in from 2 bases", "Terran got no lategame" stuff is there since beta. Expansions come and go, GSL are won and lost and people keep that shit flowing.
But lets think what happened alongside that. And the truth is: PvT is practically in the same state (design and balance-wise) since 2011. It's MMM (vikings+ghosts) vs stalker/zealot/colosi/storm. This is the CORE of TvP and it was like that forever. Terrans used to faceroll protoss with their basic units w/o mines, libs and cyclones. And while protoss didn't have access to "broken" msc/sb/disruptor you name it, Terran STILL whined about everything. And this shit just keeps coming back on a regular basis. Remember Flash pulling scv in literally every TvP? How long ago was that? Right, 4 years ago. What did all the terran say back then? "TvP is broken!!!!", "we got no lategame", "scv pulls are killing the game". But everyone moved on. People kept playing the game instead of whining on TL, and it suddenly revealed that PvT can be played w/o 2 base allins. Woah! What a revelation! We also got that blink, adept all-in era that eventually ENDED w/o blizzard interference, just because players adapted (don't even start on that MSC vision nerf).
But here were are in mid 2018, after a almost a year w/o balance tweaks and they are jumping out of the bushes again with same old story about how terran got no lategame and 2 base all-ins. But now that proxy stuff piles up as well.
TLDR: tvp evolves on it's own and the biggest factor are the players figuring out the game, not the balance changes. "Nolate game/2base allins" whining return every 2 years or so and then everyone forgets about it. For a while. Proxy plays is just another phase in the meta development.
And no, we don't need any drastic changes in the balance. Make another game from scratch (where TvP is not revolved around bio) and play it. Leave SC2 to us.
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On September 06 2018 16:16 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 07:42 Charoisaur wrote:
That's the problem in this community.
Every time you point out a problem in the current metagame you get called a whiner no matter if the problem has to do with balance or with how enjoyable the game is.
If people wouldn't be so obsessed with maintaining their winrate on ladder and focused more on bringing the game in a better state we would be in a much better situation now. That's just some generic moralizing stuff. Calling someone a whiner doesn't affect the current state of the game. You could have added: lets all be friends or something. Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 07:19 deacon.frost wrote:On September 06 2018 03:40 insitelol wrote:On September 06 2018 01:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 06 2018 00:11 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:51 DomeGetta wrote:On September 05 2018 21:41 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that. Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from. It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol. So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon .... Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining. Similar arguments were used in TvZ during BLinfestor era. Mvp is winning, stop whining, play like Mvp. Yes, arguments were used indeed, but you missed on them. Completely. I didn't. Mate, I main Protoss, but the current state of the game is retarded. And I don't say it's imbalanced or that Protoss is or isn't OP. The state of the PvT is shit. It needs to be fixed. But using as an argument that Terran is winning GSL is plainly stupid similarly as the Mvp case. The thing is that topic (TvP) is being discussed for almost a decade. And the all the same arguments are being raised every 2 years or so. "Terran got no option but to all in from 2 bases", "Terran got no lategame" stuff is there since beta. Expansions come and go, GSL are won and lost and people keep that shit flowing. But lets think what happened alongside that. And the truth is: PvT is practically in the same state (design and balance-wise) since 2011. It's MMM (vikings+ghosts) vs stalker/zealot/colosi/storm. This is the CORE of TvP and it was like that forever. Terrans used to faceroll protoss with their basic units w/o mines, libs and cyclones. And while protoss didn't have access to "broken" msc/sb/disruptor you name it, Terran STILL whined about everything. And this shit just keeps coming back on a regular basis. Remember Flash pulling scv in literally every TvP? How long ago was that? Right, 4 years ago. What did all the terran say back then? "TvP is broken!!!!", "we got no lategame", "scv pulls are killing the game". But everyone moved on. People kept playing the game instead of whining on TL, and it suddenly revealed that PvT can be played w/o 2 base allins. Woah! What a revelation! We also got that blink, adept all-in era that eventually ENDED w/o blizzard interference, just because players adapted (don't even start on that MSC vision nerf). But here were are in mid 2018, after a almost a year w/o balance tweaks and they are jumping out of the bushes again with same old story about how terran got no lategame and 2 base all-ins. But now that proxy stuff piles up as well. TLDR: tvp evolves on it's own and the biggest factor are the players figuring out the game, not the balance changes. "Nolate game/2base allins" whining return every 2 years or so and then everyone forgets about it. For a while. Proxy plays is just another phase in the meta development. And no, we don't need any drastic changes in the balance. Make another game from scratch (where TvP is not revolved around bio) and play it. Leave SC2 to us.
The state of the matchup is so blatantly bad and you still manage to write such non sense. I wish you were forced to play terran to see how it is cool to be forced into a style you don't want to play "because it is just another phase in the meta development".
And there has almost never been such situation as TvP naturally evolving and people moving on by themself. You voluntarily omit all the patch that were done in the meantime. You are so biased.
Everyone just wants the game to be in a good state as quickly as possible. Not only terran are complaining, toss as well. Don't disrupt that just because you're arrogant.
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On September 06 2018 20:10 Fbaby wrote:
And there has almost never been such situation as TvP naturally evolving and people moving on by themself.
I brough up some examples in my post. 2014 scv pull era for instance. What patch exactly solved the issue? What patch fixed blink-allins? Feel free to give another examples of how some patch fixed other "problems" in PvT. What's the difference in SC2 2014 and 2018 version that lead us to proxy being the only option for terran?
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EPT
