Reaching the round of 4 in Code S is an incredible feat. It's the realm of the truly elite, an arena in which heroes such as Stats, INnoVation, soO and Dark do battle. The unworthy are so ruthless weeded out that the lineup can become repetitious—three members of last season’s Ro4 have returned for another shot at becoming Code S champion. TY, Zest and Maru have been here before and have proved they have the skills to advance beyond it. Counted among the best of StarCraft II, they are players befitting the grandeur of the GSL Ro4. They are champions of some of the biggest tournaments in the world, while Zest and Maru are champions of GSL Code S itself.
There is an intruder in their midst. Neeb participating in the first GSL Code S of his career, finds himself challenging players with dozens of seasons of combined experience. He's also a foreigner, the first we've seen reach the Code S semifinals since January of 2011. He isn’t what we envision when we think of a typical Code S semifinalist, but here he is, with a puncher's chance of making the impossible possible.
Neeb came to our attention in dramatic fashion, shattering the Korean hegemony at the 2016 KeSPA Cup. His subsequent conquering of the 2017 WCS Circuit had fans thinking he was a serious challenger to the Koreans heading into the WCS Global Finals. There, he ended up having a mixed but ultimately disappointing performance: he won one of the most impressive single games of the tournament against Rogue, but was nonetheless eliminated from the group stages by Rogue in a rematch.
It’s been a rocky path for Neeb ever since. We assumed that his WCS Circuit dominance would continue in 2018, but instead he has been totally usurped by Serral. In a way, Neeb has been lucky—Serral's undisputed reign has overshadowed every other storyline in the foreign scene, including Neeb's string of underwhelming performances. At WCS Leipzig, he was defeated in the semifinals by ShoWTimE—a player he had a 3-0 head-to-head advantage against in offline events. Neeb was then stunned by MaNa at WCS Austin, and then lost again to ShoWTimE in the Ro8 of WCS Valencia.
To say we expected more from Neeb would be an understatement. We pictured dominance, another three titles, and a chance to absolve his shortcomings at BlizzCon heading into 2018. Instead he’s dropped the ball over and over, stumbling in ways he hasn’t since the early days of LotV. He hasn't even been able to deliver us a dream-match against Serral in WCS (Serral did sweep Neeb in a largely forgotten Ro8 meeting) at WESG). A best-of-seven in the most high pressure environment would settle, once and for all, who reigns supreme in the foreign scene. The blame rests solely at Neeb’s feet—he simply hasn’t been good enough.
And yet, in another way, this year has been a wild success for the American Protoss. He's balanced out his Circuit woes with triumphs against Korean opponents that would be considered historic if not for Serral. Neeb was unable to escape the group stage at Katowice and lost the only match he played against a Korean at WESG, but his performance at the Hangzhou StarCraft Carnival echoed his shocking victory in the KeSPA Cup nearly two years ago.
He tripped out of the starting block, losing to INnoVation, but caught his stride in the playoffs where he beat Rogue and herO to lift the championship trophy. Liquipedia may not have conferred 'premiere' status to the tournament, but it was a significant accomplishment for Neeb this year. Contentious as the result may be given the setting, the format of the tournament, and the form of his opponents, it can’t be denied that many of those who vehemently diminish the validity of Neeb’s victory also gave him no chance to win in the first place. It’s an eerily similar situation to the KeSPA Cup, where Neeb left our jaws on the floor, even as he boarded the plane, trophy in hand.
The Neeb paradox has reached its peak in GSL Code S. When Neeb first tried to qualify for Code S in Season 3 of 2017, his hopes were dashed by the lowly Hurricane. To think that Neeb would be left on the sidelines while NoRegret made his first Code S appearance was unthinkable, but sometimes truth really is stranger than fiction.
Neeb bided his time, waiting for Season 3 of this year to move back to Korea for another go. This time he managed to break through to Code S, only to earn a group that included foreigner killer Dark for his troubles. Finishing second place in that group was only mildly surprising and, with the benefit of hindsight, later victories over Impact and Reynor in the round of 16 were expected. Yes, he’d advanced twice, but the real tests were yet to come. A match against Rogue loomed, surely that would be the end of Neeb’s run. That was the precise moment when Neeb decided to flip StarCraft II on its head.
Those who believe in curses would point towards Rogue’s 0-8 record in Code S semifinals, but the fact is that Neeb thoroughly outplayed the twice crowned world champion. He brought a better game plan and executed it to a T. The victory put Neeb in rarefied air. Seven years have passed since Jinro reached the semifinals in the first Code S of 2011, but here we are, watching a foreigner come within two steps of claiming the most fiercely contested trophy in StarCraft II.
TY defended the GSL's honor against Neeb in the 2017 edition of GSL vs. The World
If Neeb is intruding and defying expectations, then TY is in his element and intent on rectifying past mistakes. He made it this far last season but lost to Zest in a full, seven game series. It’s been slow going since then. Four straight quarterfinal exits in Code S meant that he never got within shouting distance of the finals. He blew a 2-1 lead against Dear, got reverse swept by soO and GuMiho and was embarrassed by Dark. His failure to navigate the Round of 16 in the first season of 2018, as well as his Round of 8 exit in the IEM World Championship, cast TY in a critical light. No one could deny the validity of his championships at WESG and IEM Katowice in 2017 (after all, what progamer wouldn't try their best to win a $100,000+ first place prize?), but one could rightfully question if he had what it took to win Korea's most precious title.
It wasn’t really surprising when TY beat GuMiho last season to advance to the semifinals. Maru had been singing TY’s praises for some time and popular opinion actually fancied TY to defeat Zest. That result would have set up a true crowd-pleaser: a showdown between the two best Terrans with everything on the line. Zest had other ideas. The semifinal was a sloppy affair, with short games full of proxied buildings, hidden bases, absurd builds and ceaseless aggression. It was very much a modern PvT. And, while it was not the refined, macro-oriented StarCraft some fans may favor, it was an exciting set in which the players were evenly matched. The margin of error was so thin that it may have come down to a single, well placed stasis ward that decided the outcome. Ultimately Zest advanced, only to be ground into dust by Maru in what could hardly be described as a competitive match. TY was left at home, shaking his head, wondering what might have been.
Disappointment is an essential part of all competition, and while TY had plenty of reasons to be discouraged, he has bounced back admirably since losing to Zest. He’s seen great success in online events and ran over Stats and sOs in the round of 16 just a few weeks ago, proving that whatever TvP woes he might have once had have been dispelled. The authoritative manner in which he made quick work of an ailing Leenock could be attributed to his opponent’s health issues, but the fact of the matter was that TY appeared a cut above.
TY now enters the semifinals cast as the favorite, but bears an unfair burden of expectations. Should Neeb emerge victorious, the storyline will be as much about TY’s failure as it will be Neeb’s triumph. Should TY win, everyone’s focus will immediately shift back to Maru. It’s an unforgiving situation, but that's TY's fault. He’s been viewed as one of the best players in the game for quite some time, yet his lack of Code S success still haunts him. He may have won enough money to make him a one-percenter in StarCraft II, but what progamer starts their career with wealth as their primary goal? Undeniably talented, and possessing a virtually unmatched sense of strategy, TY has fallen short in the pursuit of competitive glory in Code S.
Then wouldn’t this be the perfect moment to buck that image? Over the totality of their careers TY has been the superior player to Neeb in almost every facet of skill. Even as we dismiss TY as a choker in Code S, his victory at the IEM World Championship eclipses any of Neeb's titles thus far.
Yet, Neeb is still the first foreigner to win a StarCraft II tournament on Korean soil, while TY's blazing speed and clever tactics have not availed him in Korea. I admit a StarCraft II match shouldn't be reduced to something so simple, but as it regards TY coming through at a critical juncture: I'll believe it when I see it.
I hope the better player wins. I hope TY is the better player. Shortly: I hope TY wins this. I am not impartial, but I might change my mind during the games.
They are champions of the some of the biggest tournaments It’s been rocky path If Neeb is intruding and defying expectations, then (Wiki)TY in his element and intent on rectifying past mistakes
There is a "the" too many in the first paragraph, so I read the rest on high alert. Then I think there is an "a" missing, and the last quoted sentence just makes no sense to me.
They are champions of the some of the biggest tournaments It’s been rocky path If Neeb is intruding and defying expectations, then (Wiki)TY in his element and intent on rectifying past mistakes
There is a "the" too many in the first paragraph, so I read the rest on high alert. Then I think there is an "a" missing, and the last quoted sentence just makes no sense to me.
I dunno why google hasn't bought out our crowd-sourced proofreading tech yet
Neeb in the ro4 is certainly hype, but none of the actual matches he won to get there have been that convincing (beating Losira, aLive, Impact, Reynor, and a Rogue who looked the worse he has in years). The only challenging opponents he's faced are Dark and Maru (both of them stomped him), and TY is certainly in that same catagory.
I hope I'm wrong and we get a fun match, but I can see this being another case of someone getting deep in a tournament then losing to the first elite player they encounter.
I hope I'm wrong and we get a fun match, but I can see this being another case of someone getting deep in a tournament then losing to the first elite player they encounter.
I love how Rogue isn't an elite player anymore. What can he do? He does not have so many victories as TY. Wait a secoooooooond......!
I hope I'm wrong and we get a fun match, but I can see this being another case of someone getting deep in a tournament then losing to the first elite player they encounter.
I love how Rogue isn't an elite player anymore. What can he do? He does not have so many victories as TY. Wait a secoooooooond......!
With how he played it's hard to give him much credit. I find it hard to be a fan of Rogue when he'll switch between being a championship contender and a complete flop every other event.
Now Neeb was seriously solid in their match, I'm not denying that. But he could have played below his standards and still won. Any protoss in GSL could have probably won that.
As others have said, Rogue played like a tier 3 zerg, which isn't that surprising because it's the inconsistent as ever Rogue. TY is the second best terran in the world, and Neeb will be overconfident (as he usually is, but he has a tendency to get really full of himself after taking maps from someone decent) and lose his mental after one loss.
It kills me to say this, but TY 4-2 or 4-3's Neeb.
That said: Neeb's in the GSL semis and it wasn't a fluke. -Rogue, like it or not, decided his best chance to beat Neeb was to play like Dark, and Rogue rolled the dice. -Impact and Reynor don't sound like too tough opponents BUT replace Impact with [the guy that advanced over Zest] and Reynor with [the kid that advanced over Classic], and Neeb's ro16 group looks terrifying.
On September 05 2018 01:11 veniss wrote: -Impact and Reynor don't sound like too tough opponents BUT replace Impact with [the guy that advanced over Zest] and Reynor with [the kid that advanced over Classic], and Neeb's ro16 group looks terrifying.
The problem with that is that Neeb didn't actually beat Zest or Classic. In general, beating people who got in through upsets is almost always less impressive than beating those who are consistantly top opponents.
Remember last season when Stats 2-0'd eMotion? Even if eMotion beat herO to get there it's still not an impressive result.
On September 05 2018 01:11 veniss wrote: -Impact and Reynor don't sound like too tough opponents BUT replace Impact with [the guy that advanced over Zest] and Reynor with [the kid that advanced over Classic], and Neeb's ro16 group looks terrifying.
The problem with that is that Neeb didn't actually beat Zest or Classic. In general, beating people who got in through upsets is almost always less impressive than beating those who are consistantly top opponents.
Remember last season when Stats 2-0'd eMotion? Even if eMotion beat herO to get there it's still not an impressive result.
No, but he beat the people who in ZvP did beat those people. In fact, he destroyed them.
Thing is, people are downplaying Neeb's results with the benefit of hindsight. TL predicted he'd go down in the ro32, ro16, and ro8. The polls predicted a Neeb loss in the ro16 and ro8, and the LBs predicted only a Neeb victory in the ro32, with the majority predicting him to lose in the ro16 and ro8. So every step of the way, he has defied expectation.
Sure, now in hindsight, we can say that his path was easy, but at the time, most people didn't think he'd be here. That isn't to say that he will win now, just that at the time, team liquid as a collective (at least the ones who post) did not think Neeb would win.
The state of PvT right now suggests we are going to see proxies in every game. I wouldn't be optimistic for neeb's chances seeing his games against Maru and dark, but stranger things have happened. Feeling a 4-2 for TY though
On September 05 2018 00:49 Rodya wrote: 4 TY - 0 Neeb
As others have said, Rogue played like a tier 3 zerg, which isn't that surprising because it's the inconsistent as ever Rogue. TY is the second best terran in the world, and Neeb will be overconfident (as he usually is, but he has a tendency to get really full of himself after taking maps from someone decent) and lose his mental after one loss.
On September 05 2018 00:49 Rodya wrote: 4 TY - 0 Neeb
As others have said, Rogue played like a tier 3 zerg, which isn't that surprising because it's the inconsistent as ever Rogue. TY is the second best terran in the world, and Neeb will be overconfident (as he usually is, but he has a tendency to get really full of himself after taking maps from someone decent) and lose his mental after one loss.
you never stop do you? I mean you might get this one right because of how good TY is, but to say that Neeb will not take a map might be a bit off
I hope I'm wrong and we get a fun match, but I can see this being another case of someone getting deep in a tournament then losing to the first elite player they encounter.
I love how Rogue isn't an elite player anymore. What can he do? He does not have so many victories as TY. Wait a secoooooooond......!
Its not everyday that the world champion plays badly enough to warrant matchfixing accusations.
On September 05 2018 00:49 Rodya wrote: 4 TY - 0 Neeb
As others have said, Rogue played like a tier 3 zerg, which isn't that surprising because it's the inconsistent as ever Rogue. TY is the second best terran in the world, and Neeb will be overconfident (as he usually is, but he has a tendency to get really full of himself after taking maps from someone decent) and lose his mental after one loss.
you never stop do you? I mean you might get this one right because of how good TY is, but to say that Neeb will not take a map might be a bit off
Thing is, Neeb has lost composure after a bad game one loss. But it's really not due to overconfidence. If Neeb says he is good in a matchup, he's good in that matchup. I mean, this is the guy who kept saying he was bad when winning all the WCS.
On September 05 2018 03:10 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: I hope TY wins because TVT is Maru's worst matchup. I feel this is the best chance of having a non 4-0 finals.
Maru's TvT > TvZ
He literally hasn't lost a map in TvT in over 6 months. People assume it's his weakest matchup purely because he doesn't play it much, not because there are actual weaknesses in it. His TvZ however does have notable weak points.
On September 05 2018 03:10 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: I hope TY wins because TVT is Maru's worst matchup. I feel this is the best chance of having a non 4-0 finals.
He literally hasn't lost a map in TvT in over 6 months.
He's literally played 1 TvT even worth mentioning in 6 months. We're not talking some insane win streak here, we're talking 3-0'ing GuMiho and not dropping maps against players 5 tiers below him. That's a weak stat. What's true though is that he has some weakness to his TvZ and doesn't feel confident about it.
Granted, it's not like TvZ is an option in this bracket.
On September 05 2018 03:10 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: I hope TY wins because TVT is Maru's worst matchup. I feel this is the best chance of having a non 4-0 finals.
He literally hasn't lost a map in TvT in over 6 months.
He's literally played 1 TvT even worth mentioning in 6 months. We're not talking some insane win streak here, we're talking 3-0'ing GuMiho and not dropping maps against players 5 tiers below him. That's a weak stat. What's true though is that he has some weakness to his TvZ and doesn't feel confident about it.
Granted, it's not like TvZ is an option in this bracket.
Exactly, how can so many people point to Maru's TvT being a weakness when he basically hasn't played it in 6 months? And not dropping any maps in 6 months is not a weak stat at all, you can say it's expected, but it's not like he could have done better. At the most his TvT was an unknown, not a weakness.
Btw, I'm not actually saying he's done anything great in the matchup, but he hasn't shown any flaws either. For TvZ on the other hand, he has.
Not sure how Neeb's planning to open the game, but TY's 4-3 reverse sweep over Classic in the ONPOONG Masters tournament showed going down 0-3 into 4 straight proxies, 3 of them reactor cyclones. Something to keep in mind; I think Neeb has some decent defensive play when he's playing warily, but he definitely isn't always the most conscientious about scouting and had quite some greedy/punishable openings when he first entered the scene. He'll probably prepare for that possibility though, in which case the series could be interesting.
TY 4-1. I believe in the genius and his preparation
On September 05 2018 05:20 yubo56 wrote: Not sure how Neeb's planning to open the game, but TY's 4-3 reverse sweep over Classic in the ONPOONG Masters tournament showed going down 0-3 into 4 straight proxies, 3 of them reactor cyclones. Something to keep in mind; I think Neeb has some decent defensive play when he's playing warily, but he definitely isn't always the most conscientious about scouting and had quite some greedy/punishable openings when he first entered the scene. He'll probably prepare for that possibility though, in which case the series could be interesting.
TY 4-1. I believe in the genius and his preparation
So did Classic win the first three off of non-proxy games? Also, I just watched Cure beat Stats off of three straight proxies. And TY won his group off the back of proxy play. It seems like the factory proxy into cyclones is very powerful.
I feel like Neeb should be aware of this proxy, so hopefully he practices a lot with Special against this build.
On September 05 2018 05:20 yubo56 wrote: Not sure how Neeb's planning to open the game, but TY's 4-3 reverse sweep over Classic in the ONPOONG Masters tournament showed going down 0-3 into 4 straight proxies, 3 of them reactor cyclones. Something to keep in mind; I think Neeb has some decent defensive play when he's playing warily, but he definitely isn't always the most conscientious about scouting and had quite some greedy/punishable openings when he first entered the scene. He'll probably prepare for that possibility though, in which case the series could be interesting.
TY 4-1. I believe in the genius and his preparation
So did Classic win the first three off of non-proxy games? Also, I just watched Cure beat Stats off of three straight proxies. And TY won his group off the back of proxy play. It seems like the factory proxy into cyclones is very powerful.
I feel like Neeb should be aware of this proxy, so hopefully he practices a lot with Special against this build.
It's funny'cause you've proved that TvP is a broken thing.
Hard to gauge this matchup lol. Neeb has benefited from a relatively "weak" path to the RO4 (well, let's be clear making it to a GSL RO4 will NEVER be easy), but I think the race matchup and TY's current form might work out for Neeb. I COULD see Neeb taking it, but I'm going to go with my head here and predict:
I would also like to mention the fact that people are overlooking the fact that there is a VERY high chance Maru will soon be three time consecutive GSL champion. That's crazy!
A bold prediction in the OP, but I hope it holds true. Neeb advancing over TY in a close series would be a dream come true. However, I just have to favor TY in the matchup. Neeb is good, but PvT has historically been his worst matchup, and TY is no slouch to say the least. Prediction: TY 4-2/3 Neeb
Ty just 4-3'd Classic with nasty proxy play in an online tournament, the name of which escapes me. Neeb looked utterly hopeless against Maru's proxy play. Thinking a 4-1 in favor of Ty.
TvP is in a terrible state, Terran has no chance of winning vs Protoss in a standart game and Protoss has to prepare blindly, if they wanna survive the proxy action all terrans use at the moment, especially TY. And after seeing TY's series against Classic in the ONPOONG Masters, i can't see Neeb taking this.
I think general consensus is right that TY is favoured and its naive to think otherwise - but there are always upsets in every sport and this one feels like there's a fair potential for that.
With that in mind I'd say odds are about TY 1.60 : 2.50 Neeb.
People start overreacting too much about "foreigner stuff and things". This is not even a hype. Probably, We need to shoot a historical movie. (Immediately). Deffently, we need a historical movie, right now. Because everyone should know about. We need a holiday... Neeb's day and Serral's day. And, also it should be learned by everyone at school.
On September 05 2018 15:27 dummy1 wrote: People start overreacting too much about "foreigner stuff and things". This is not even a hype. Probably, We need to shoot a historical movie. (Immediately). Deffently, we need a historical movie, right now. Because everyone should know about. We need a holiday... Neeb's day and Serral's day. And, also it should be learned by everyone at school.
Neeb, the first foreigner to win a tournament on korean soil and Serral, the other first foreigner to win a tournament on korean soil.
On September 05 2018 15:27 dummy1 wrote: People start overreacting too much about "foreigner stuff and things". This is not even a hype. Probably, We need to shoot a historical movie. (Immediately). Deffently, we need a historical movie, right now. Because everyone should know about. We need a holiday... Neeb's day and Serral's day. And, also it should be learned by everyone at school.
Neeb, the first foreigner to win a tournament on korean soil and Serral, the other first foreigner to win a tournament on korean soil.
On September 05 2018 09:00 WeRRa wrote: TvP is in a terrible state, Terran has no chance of winning vs Protoss in a standart game and Protoss has to prepare blindly, if they wanna survive the proxy action all terrans use at the moment, especially TY. And after seeing TY's series against Classic in the ONPOONG Masters, i can't see Neeb taking this.
I’m still not sure myself, do all terrans (I’ve seen Gumi / Cure /TY spam that shit in online tourneys, like A LOT) because it’s broken in their favor but standard is fine, or because standard is too P favored so they try to abuse proxy which seems a bit broken as well while they can?
On September 05 2018 09:00 WeRRa wrote: TvP is in a terrible state, Terran has no chance of winning vs Protoss in a standart game and Protoss has to prepare blindly, if they wanna survive the proxy action all terrans use at the moment, especially TY. And after seeing TY's series against Classic in the ONPOONG Masters, i can't see Neeb taking this.
I’m still not sure myself, do all terrans (I’ve seen Gumi / Cure /TY spam that shit in online tourneys, like A LOT) because it’s broken in their favor but standard is fine, or because standard is too P favored so they try to abuse proxy which seems a bit broken as well while they can?
Normal TvP is P favoured, and who wanna play against odds? Proxy vs P has a very high chance of winning, so they just playing the style what gives them a best chance of winning.
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Well, now it is clear that was a lie from Balance Team. Yeah? TvP is a broken thing. And it's pretty shity (can i say it without be banned?). From any angle for both sides. Proxy hell and me(a)ss recalls.
On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Neeb lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Honestly the last year or two SC2 strategy has been incredibly stale. But ever since Serral did well at GSL vs The World, the Koreans are playing like its Kespa-era again (except Rogue, who looked incredibly stale). SC2 strategy is nothing compared to Brood War, but Koreans are showing us that SC2 does have some strategy.
On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from.
It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol.
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
On September 05 2018 21:51 DomeGetta wrote: So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
The whole situation around TvP is went too far. It's not only fucked up, but it cannot be solved directly without have been touching zerg. And this is simply impossible to do before Blizzcon. Tough call for Balance Team.
On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from.
It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol.
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
I don't get your reasoning. Your original post appeared in this very thread (neeb vs TY series) and you pointed these series out as an indication for everyone to see that TvP is broken. But now you are backing off with "well that series may not clearly indicate that but lets take a look at the whole picture" stuff. I didn't watch every TvP this year but i watched a decent amount to claim that you are just making things up. Yes proxys happen here and there on both sides (clearly much more on Terran side), but there is no need to drag in arguments like "The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying" (what the hell that even supposed to mean?) or "protoss proxied with VR for a few months a year ago. Guilty!!!". This has nothing to do with TvP being "fucked up" at all. Terran proxy plays are relatively popular only due to protoss players not reacting properly, once protoss figure it out they will be gone. And protoss proxy plays... suck big time. Anyways i find it very entertaining and healthy for MU. Players are still trying different stuff. That's completely ok. And that applies to MU as a whole as well. TvP is STILL being figured out. Protoss, for instance, if you look at it from a years persepctive statrted with mass gates styles which later on evolved into colosi based stuff and eventually into stalker/disruptor comps that are relatively new for terrans (that's why they whine so much about it). Neeb perfectly capitalized on that. It was obvious that TY didn't have much practice vs that style. But he did show his competence as a PRO and adjusted his play to it during that crucial 16-bit game. Neeb relied only on TY being unprepared and that's why i said he lost his chances for hitting finals after he dropped that map.
But why am i wasting my time on this. Ye, protoss imba, terran has no late game w/e blah blah blah. I've heard it all before. Since 2010 i guess.
Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from.
It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol.
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
.... Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
Similar arguments were used in TvZ during BLinfestor era. Mvp is winning, stop whining, play like Mvp.
On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from.
It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol.
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
.... Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
Similar arguments were used in TvZ during BLinfestor era. Mvp is winning, stop whining, play like Mvp.
Yes, arguments were used indeed, but you missed on them. Completely.
On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from.
It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol.
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
I don't get your reasoning. Your original post appeared in this very thread (neeb vs TY series) and you pointed these series out as an indication for everyone to see that TvP is broken. But now you are backing off with "well that series may not clearly indicate that but lets take a look at the whole picture" stuff. I didn't watch every TvP this year but i watched a decent amount to claim that you are just making things up. Yes proxys happen here and there on both sides (clearly much more on Terran side), but there is no need to drag in arguments like "The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying" (what the hell that even supposed to mean?) or "protoss proxied with VR for a few months a year ago. Guilty!!!". This has nothing to do with TvP being "fucked up" at all. Terran proxy plays are relatively popular only due to protoss players not reacting properly, once protoss figure it out they will be gone. And protoss proxy plays... suck big time. Anyways i find it very entertaining and healthy for MU. Players are still trying different stuff. That's completely ok. And that applies to MU as a whole as well. TvP is STILL being figured out. Protoss, for instance, if you look at it from a years persepctive statrted with mass gates styles which later on evolved into colosi based stuff and eventually into stalker/disruptor comps that are relatively new for terrans (that's why they whine so much about it). Neeb perfectly capitalized on that. It was obvious that TY didn't have much practice vs that style. But he did show his competence as a PRO and adjusted his play to it during that crucial 16-bit game. Neeb relied only on TY being unprepared and that's why i said he lost his chances for hitting finals after he dropped that map.
But why am i wasting my time on this. Ye, protoss imba, terran has no late game w/e blah blah blah. I've heard it all before. Since 2010 i guess.
Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
If the only way terran can win is by doing weird proxies or be lucky in basetrade at equal level of skill, then there is nothing else to say that it's broken. I don't even know how one can be following the scene recently and deny that.
You can't just look at winrates. Watch last 50+ TvP, each game in detail. This is not even whining anymore at this point. The matchup has become straight up dumb because terrans have been forced to play like this to keep a reasonable winrate. Even Maru in interview said he's lost in TvP, doesn't mean he won't win, just means he won't win with standard play.
And this is not acceptable no matter how much terran have been whining since 2010. And please excuse terrans for being biologically meant to whine in TvP. Of course everything has always been fine /s.
On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from.
It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol.
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
I don't get your reasoning. Your original post appeared in this very thread (neeb vs TY series) and you pointed these series out as an indication for everyone to see that TvP is broken. But now you are backing off with "well that series may not clearly indicate that but lets take a look at the whole picture" stuff. I didn't watch every TvP this year but i watched a decent amount to claim that you are just making things up. Yes proxys happen here and there on both sides (clearly much more on Terran side), but there is no need to drag in arguments like "The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying" (what the hell that even supposed to mean?) or "protoss proxied with VR for a few months a year ago. Guilty!!!". This has nothing to do with TvP being "fucked up" at all. Terran proxy plays are relatively popular only due to protoss players not reacting properly, once protoss figure it out they will be gone. And protoss proxy plays... suck big time. Anyways i find it very entertaining and healthy for MU. Players are still trying different stuff. That's completely ok. And that applies to MU as a whole as well. TvP is STILL being figured out. Protoss, for instance, if you look at it from a years persepctive statrted with mass gates styles which later on evolved into colosi based stuff and eventually into stalker/disruptor comps that are relatively new for terrans (that's why they whine so much about it). Neeb perfectly capitalized on that. It was obvious that TY didn't have much practice vs that style. But he did show his competence as a PRO and adjusted his play to it during that crucial 16-bit game. Neeb relied only on TY being unprepared and that's why i said he lost his chances for hitting finals after he dropped that map.
But why am i wasting my time on this. Ye, protoss imba, terran has no late game w/e blah blah blah. I've heard it all before. Since 2010 i guess.
Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from.
It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol.
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
.... Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
Similar arguments were used in TvZ during BLinfestor era. Mvp is winning, stop whining, play like Mvp.
Yes, arguments were used indeed, but you missed on them. Completely.
I didn't. Mate, I main Protoss, but the current state of the game is retarded. And I don't say it's imbalanced or that Protoss is or isn't OP. The state of the PvT is shit. It needs to be fixed. But using as an argument that Terran is winning GSL is plainly stupid similarly as the Mvp case.
That's the problem in this community. Every time you point out a problem in the current metagame you get called a whiner no matter if the problem has to do with balance or with how enjoyable the game is.
If people wouldn't be so obsessed with maintaining their winrate on ladder and focused more on bringing the game in a better state we would be in a much better situation now.
On September 06 2018 07:42 Charoisaur wrote: That's the problem in this community. Every time you point out a problem in the current metagame you get called a whiner no matter if the problem has to do with balance or with how enjoyable the game is.
If people wouldn't be so obsessed with maintaining their winrate on ladder and focused more on bringing the game in a better state we would be in a much better situation now.
That's just some generic moralizing stuff. Calling someone a whiner doesn't affect the current state of the game. You could have added: lets all be friends or something.
On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from.
It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol.
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
.... Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
Similar arguments were used in TvZ during BLinfestor era. Mvp is winning, stop whining, play like Mvp.
Yes, arguments were used indeed, but you missed on them. Completely.
I didn't. Mate, I main Protoss, but the current state of the game is retarded. And I don't say it's imbalanced or that Protoss is or isn't OP. The state of the PvT is shit. It needs to be fixed. But using as an argument that Terran is winning GSL is plainly stupid similarly as the Mvp case.
The thing is that topic (TvP) is being discussed for almost a decade. And the all the same arguments are being raised every 2 years or so. "Terran got no option but to all in from 2 bases", "Terran got no lategame" stuff is there since beta. Expansions come and go, GSL are won and lost and people keep that shit flowing.
But lets think what happened alongside that. And the truth is: PvT is practically in the same state (design and balance-wise) since 2011. It's MMM (vikings+ghosts) vs stalker/zealot/colosi/storm. This is the CORE of TvP and it was like that forever. Terrans used to faceroll protoss with their basic units w/o mines, libs and cyclones. And while protoss didn't have access to "broken" msc/sb/disruptor you name it, Terran STILL whined about everything. And this shit just keeps coming back on a regular basis. Remember Flash pulling scv in literally every TvP? How long ago was that? Right, 4 years ago. What did all the terran say back then? "TvP is broken!!!!", "we got no lategame", "scv pulls are killing the game". But everyone moved on. People kept playing the game instead of whining on TL, and it suddenly revealed that PvT can be played w/o 2 base allins. Woah! What a revelation! We also got that blink, adept all-in era that eventually ENDED w/o blizzard interference, just because players adapted (don't even start on that MSC vision nerf).
But here were are in mid 2018, after a almost a year w/o balance tweaks and they are jumping out of the bushes again with same old story about how terran got no lategame and 2 base all-ins. But now that proxy stuff piles up as well.
TLDR: tvp evolves on it's own and the biggest factor are the players figuring out the game, not the balance changes. "Nolate game/2base allins" whining return every 2 years or so and then everyone forgets about it. For a while. Proxy plays is just another phase in the meta development.
And no, we don't need any drastic changes in the balance. Make another game from scratch (where TvP is not revolved around bio) and play it. Leave SC2 to us.
On September 06 2018 07:42 Charoisaur wrote: That's the problem in this community. Every time you point out a problem in the current metagame you get called a whiner no matter if the problem has to do with balance or with how enjoyable the game is.
If people wouldn't be so obsessed with maintaining their winrate on ladder and focused more on bringing the game in a better state we would be in a much better situation now.
That's just some generic moralizing stuff. Calling someone a whiner doesn't affect the current state of the game. You could have added: lets all be friends or something.
On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote: Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from.
It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol.
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
.... Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
Similar arguments were used in TvZ during BLinfestor era. Mvp is winning, stop whining, play like Mvp.
Yes, arguments were used indeed, but you missed on them. Completely.
I didn't. Mate, I main Protoss, but the current state of the game is retarded. And I don't say it's imbalanced or that Protoss is or isn't OP. The state of the PvT is shit. It needs to be fixed. But using as an argument that Terran is winning GSL is plainly stupid similarly as the Mvp case.
The thing is that topic (TvP) is being discussed for almost a decade. And the all the same arguments are being raised every 2 years or so. "Terran got no option but to all in from 2 bases", "Terran got no lategame" stuff is there since beta. Expansions come and go, GSL are won and lost and people keep that shit flowing.
But lets think what happened alongside that. And the truth is: PvT is practically in the same state (design and balance-wise) since 2011. It's MMM (vikings+ghosts) vs stalker/zealot/colosi/storm. This is the CORE of TvP and it was like that forever. Terrans used to faceroll protoss with their basic units w/o mines, libs and cyclones. And while protoss didn't have access to "broken" msc/sb/disruptor you name it, Terran STILL whined about everything. And this shit just keeps coming back on a regular basis. Remember Flash pulling scv in literally every TvP? How long ago was that? Right, 4 years ago. What did all the terran say back then? "TvP is broken!!!!", "we got no lategame", "scv pulls are killing the game". But everyone moved on. People kept playing the game instead of whining on TL, and it suddenly revealed that PvT can be played w/o 2 base allins. Woah! What a revelation! We also got that blink, adept all-in era that eventually ENDED w/o blizzard interference, just because players adapted (don't even start on that MSC vision nerf).
But here were are in mid 2018, after a almost a year w/o balance tweaks and they are jumping out of the bushes again with same old story about how terran got no lategame and 2 base all-ins. But now that proxy stuff piles up as well.
TLDR: tvp evolves on it's own and the biggest factor are the players figuring out the game, not the balance changes. "Nolate game/2base allins" whining return every 2 years or so and then everyone forgets about it. For a while. Proxy plays is just another phase in the meta development.
And no, we don't need any drastic changes in the balance. Make another game from scratch (where TvP is not revolved around bio) and play it. Leave SC2 to us.
The state of the matchup is so blatantly bad and you still manage to write such non sense. I wish you were forced to play terran to see how it is cool to be forced into a style you don't want to play "because it is just another phase in the meta development". And there has almost never been such situation as TvP naturally evolving and people moving on by themself. You voluntarily omit all the patch that were done in the meantime. You are so biased.
Everyone just wants the game to be in a good state as quickly as possible. Not only terran are complaining, toss as well. Don't disrupt that just because you're arrogant.
On September 06 2018 20:10 Fbaby wrote: And there has almost never been such situation as TvP naturally evolving and people moving on by themself.
I brough up some examples in my post. 2014 scv pull era for instance. What patch exactly solved the issue? What patch fixed blink-allins? Feel free to give another examples of how some patch fixed other "problems" in PvT. What's the difference in SC2 2014 and 2018 version that lead us to proxy being the only option for terran?
EPT
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