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On September 05 2018 15:27 dummy1 wrote:
People start overreacting too much about "foreigner stuff and things". This is not even a hype. Probably, We need to shoot a historical movie. (Immediately). Deffently, we need a historical movie, right now. Because everyone should know about. We need a holiday... Neeb's day and Serral's day. And, also it should be learned by everyone at school.
Neeb, the first foreigner to win a tournament on korean soil and Serral, the other first foreigner to win a tournament on korean soil.
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Lol, my bad, I misread "first" as "only" XD So dumb, I blame it on early morning posting. Sorry all! GSL HYPE!!
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On September 05 2018 15:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 15:27 dummy1 wrote:
People start overreacting too much about "foreigner stuff and things". This is not even a hype. Probably, We need to shoot a historical movie. (Immediately). Deffently, we need a historical movie, right now. Because everyone should know about. We need a holiday... Neeb's day and Serral's day. And, also it should be learned by everyone at school. Neeb, the first foreigner to win a tournament on korean soil and Serral, the other first foreigner to win a tournament on korean soil.
Do you want to be a film producer?
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No no no, no matter how much i like neeb its gonna be 4-0, 4-1 for TY.
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Neeb 4-2 easy
Even though the bookmakers are saying that Neeb wouldnt even win 1 out of 4 times, i still believe <3
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France12906 Posts
On September 05 2018 09:00 WeRRa wrote:
TvP is in a terrible state, Terran has no chance of winning vs Protoss in a standart game and Protoss has to prepare blindly,
if they wanna survive the proxy action all terrans use at the moment, especially TY.
And after seeing TY's series against Classic in the ONPOONG Masters, i can't see Neeb taking this.
I’m still not sure myself, do all terrans (I’ve seen Gumi / Cure /TY spam that shit in online tourneys, like A LOT) because it’s broken in their favor but standard is fine, or because standard is too P favored so they try to abuse proxy which seems a bit broken as well while they can?
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On September 05 2018 17:48 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 09:00 WeRRa wrote:
TvP is in a terrible state, Terran has no chance of winning vs Protoss in a standart game and Protoss has to prepare blindly,
if they wanna survive the proxy action all terrans use at the moment, especially TY.
And after seeing TY's series against Classic in the ONPOONG Masters, i can't see Neeb taking this. I’m still not sure myself, do all terrans (I’ve seen Gumi / Cure /TY spam that shit in online tourneys, like A LOT) because it’s broken in their favor but standard is fine, or because standard is too P favored so they try to abuse proxy which seems a bit broken as well while they can?
Normal TvP is P favoured, and who wanna play against odds? Proxy vs P has a very high chance of winning, so they just playing the style what gives them a best chance of winning.
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Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
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Well, now it is clear that was a lie from Balance Team. Yeah? TvP is a broken thing. And it's pretty shity (can i say it without be banned?). From any angle for both sides. Proxy hell and me(a)ss recalls.
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On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show
Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome.
I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that.
But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Neeb lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
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Honestly the last year or two SC2 strategy has been incredibly stale. But ever since Serral did well at GSL vs The World, the Koreans are playing like its Kespa-era again (except Rogue, who looked incredibly stale). SC2 strategy is nothing compared to Brood War, but Koreans are showing us that SC2 does have some strategy.
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On September 05 2018 21:41 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that.
Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me).
To try to answer ur questions:
The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from.
It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well.
Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol.
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
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I'm gonna go back and watch the first 3 games. Couldn't sleep because they were super hot, but caught the last few. They were... "neat."
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On September 05 2018 21:51 DomeGetta wrote:
So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
The whole situation around TvP is went too far. It's not only fucked up, but it cannot be solved directly without have been touching zerg. And this is simply impossible to do before Blizzcon.
Tough call for Balance Team.
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On September 05 2018 00:58 Odoakar wrote:
TY just needs to proxy rax him all 4 games.
Well to be fair, he did proxy in 4 games I believe 
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On September 05 2018 21:51 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 21:41 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that. Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from. It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol. So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon
I don't get your reasoning. Your original post appeared in this very thread (neeb vs TY series) and you pointed these series out as an indication for everyone to see that TvP is broken. But now you are backing off with "well that series may not clearly indicate that but lets take a look at the whole picture" stuff.
I didn't watch every TvP this year but i watched a decent amount to claim that you are just making things up. Yes proxys happen here and there on both sides (clearly much more on Terran side), but there is no need to drag in arguments like "The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying" (what the hell that even supposed to mean?) or "protoss proxied with VR for a few months a year ago. Guilty!!!". This has nothing to do with TvP being "fucked up" at all.
Terran proxy plays are relatively popular only due to protoss players not reacting properly, once protoss figure it out they will be gone. And protoss proxy plays... suck big time. Anyways i find it very entertaining and healthy for MU. Players are still trying different stuff. That's completely ok. And that applies to MU as a whole as well. TvP is STILL being figured out. Protoss, for instance, if you look at it from a years persepctive statrted with mass gates styles which later on evolved into colosi based stuff and eventually into stalker/disruptor comps that are relatively new for terrans (that's why they whine so much about it). Neeb perfectly capitalized on that. It was obvious that TY didn't have much practice vs that style. But he did show his competence as a PRO and adjusted his play to it during that crucial 16-bit game. Neeb relied only on TY being unprepared and that's why i said he lost his chances for hitting finals after he dropped that map.
But why am i wasting my time on this. Ye, protoss imba, terran has no late game w/e blah blah blah. I've heard it all before. Since 2010 i guess.
Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 06 2018 00:11 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 21:51 DomeGetta wrote:On September 05 2018 21:41 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that. Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from. It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol. So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon .... Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
Similar arguments were used in TvZ during BLinfestor era. Mvp is winning, stop whining, play like Mvp.
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On September 06 2018 01:01 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2018 00:11 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:51 DomeGetta wrote:On September 05 2018 21:41 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that. Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from. It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol. So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon .... Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining. Similar arguments were used in TvZ during BLinfestor era. Mvp is winning, stop whining, play like Mvp.
Yes, arguments were used indeed, but you missed on them. Completely.
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On September 06 2018 00:11 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2018 21:51 DomeGetta wrote:On September 05 2018 21:41 insitelol wrote:On September 05 2018 21:16 DomeGetta wrote:
Yeah im sorry to be the guy to say it after every tvp series..but this is just fucking stupid. They probably wont do shit till after blizzcon either..if they do they need to do it immediatley after this code s to give the players a chance to relearn the matchup.. the threat of proxy on both sides is fucking horrendous for the game and protoss late game tech is way too strong. All obvious shit since 4.0 came out but 10 months later we still watching this horror show Idk what horror show are you refering to. The series were awesome. I don't really get where this proxy whine originates from. Protoss just need to react appropriately: delay nexy, don't build adepts, etc. But it seems protoss pros think they are too good to alter their bo even in a slightest way. And i'm completely lost about protoss proxy threat you are mentioning... TY lost to proxy play because it was a coinflip build on 4player map (so he didnt see it coming), the other game neeb proxied him he defended (almost) blindly with a single tank vs SG (!!!). Another thing that makes me wonder is how on earth do you conclude protoss has a stronger lategame from those games as none of it illustrated that. But what really pissed me off was that "draw" scenario that twisted the momentum in the series. Need lost the semis exactly when he failed to finish TY there. Terran actually LOST that game but you know, flying buildings... meh. That is the REAL issue blizzard should adress if you ask me. Not the first time happening on a big stage like that. Cant actually tell if this a troll post or not (so kudos to u if u are trolling me). To try to answer ur questions: The "proxy whine" originates from literally every tvp series from ro16 being nearly 100 percent proxy games from. It kind of sounds like you watched one series and are now weighing in. The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying. Prior to this meta from Terran proxy gates into SGSB all ins were very prevalent. This is part of the reason that terrans are going 1 base at such a high frequency. The second part of that reason (which no, obviously you wouldnt be able to see from this series since none of th3 games went late) is that playing macro defensive style as terran is basically suicide since the raven nerf we dont see top terrans taking down protoss late (due to a few reasons namely staying even on upgrades is nearly impossible with chrono along with having no answer to fully rounded out t3 toss tech (all splash plus tempest to nullify liberators). You wouldnt see any of this from watching one or two of the recent series in isolation but if youve followed all 3 seasons of code s this year it would be obvious to you as well. Flying buildings well..heres where we get to what seems like trolling but anyway..when we see mass draws in tournaments due to this instead of less than 1 per code s on avg maybe we talk about it lol. So in summary. The matchup is fucked and it cant bw fixed by one or two nerfs in isolation.. you cant nerf terran early game now since this is literally the one demonstrated win condition even tho it sucks to play and watch.. you need to do something about the proxy on both sides and also balance out late game meta / mid game meta which will be hard to do since they buffed mara and nerfed raven both actually opposite to what youd want to do in current state. Good luck to them figuring that out anytime soon I don't get your reasoning. Your original post appeared in this very thread (neeb vs TY series) and you pointed these series out as an indication for everyone to see that TvP is broken. But now you are backing off with "well that series may not clearly indicate that but lets take a look at the whole picture" stuff. I didn't watch every TvP this year but i watched a decent amount to claim that you are just making things up. Yes proxys happen here and there on both sides (clearly much more on Terran side), but there is no need to drag in arguments like "The protoss proxy threat has been largely curbed due to terrans non stop proxying" (what the hell that even supposed to mean?) or "protoss proxied with VR for a few months a year ago. Guilty!!!". This has nothing to do with TvP being "fucked up" at all. Terran proxy plays are relatively popular only due to protoss players not reacting properly, once protoss figure it out they will be gone. And protoss proxy plays... suck big time. Anyways i find it very entertaining and healthy for MU. Players are still trying different stuff. That's completely ok. And that applies to MU as a whole as well. TvP is STILL being figured out. Protoss, for instance, if you look at it from a years persepctive statrted with mass gates styles which later on evolved into colosi based stuff and eventually into stalker/disruptor comps that are relatively new for terrans (that's why they whine so much about it). Neeb perfectly capitalized on that. It was obvious that TY didn't have much practice vs that style. But he did show his competence as a PRO and adjusted his play to it during that crucial 16-bit game. Neeb relied only on TY being unprepared and that's why i said he lost his chances for hitting finals after he dropped that map. But why am i wasting my time on this. Ye, protoss imba, terran has no late game w/e blah blah blah. I've heard it all before. Since 2010 i guess. Meanwhile.. Terran gonna take 3rd consecutive GSL title in a TvT (most likely). Keep on whining.
If the only way terran can win is by doing weird proxies or be lucky in basetrade at equal level of skill, then there is nothing else to say that it's broken. I don't even know how one can be following the scene recently and deny that.
You can't just look at winrates. Watch last 50+ TvP, each game in detail. This is not even whining anymore at this point. The matchup has become straight up dumb because terrans have been forced to play like this to keep a reasonable winrate. Even Maru in interview said he's lost in TvP, doesn't mean he won't win, just means he won't win with standard play.
And this is not acceptable no matter how much terran have been whining since 2010. And please excuse terrans for being biologically meant to whine in TvP. Of course everything has always been fine /s.
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EPT
